Author Topic: Imaculate Conception  (Read 24989 times)

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #270 on: December 16, 2011, 03:40:45 PM »
If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

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Offline anthony022071

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #271 on: December 16, 2011, 04:04:29 PM »

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Anthony: It was not necessary for her parents and ancestors to be immaculately conceived,because only she was to bear Christ. Her purity of conception doesn't depend upon a lineage of a pure conceptions,as if God had to do it in a mechanistic way.

Quote
She received her human nature in the same mechanistic way the rest of us got ours.  Otherwise she couldn't give it to Him Who knew no sin Whom God made sin for us. 

She received her human nature the same way as we received ours,but she did not receive the guilt of original sin or the damage to human nature and will.

Quote
Hence the IC does not comport with the Orthodox teaching from the Scripture through the Catholic Tradition of the Church.

It is an authentic teaching of Catholic tradition,whether or not it is considered to be a teaching from scripture. The Catholic Church and and Orthodox churches don't just  cull their doctrines from scripture through Catholic tradition,they also teach doctrines that have been passed on from the apostles and ancient theologians which are not found in scripture. Some Catholic doctrines are confirmed by visitations of Jesus and Mary to saints. Instead of just criticizing the doctrine based on scripture and Greek and Eastern tradition,you should consider whether Mary really appeared to St. Bernadette and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception".





Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #272 on: December 16, 2011, 04:12:31 PM »
It is an authentic teaching of Catholic tradition,whether or not it is considered to be a teaching from scripture. The Catholic Church and and Orthodox churches don't just  cull their doctrines from scripture through Catholic tradition,they also teach doctrines that have been passed on from the apostles and ancient theologians which are not found in scripture. Some Catholic doctrines are confirmed by visitations of Jesus and ary to saints. Instead of just criticizing the doctrine based on scripture and Greek and Eastern tradition,you should consider whether Mary really appeared to St. Bernadette and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception".


Eagerly awaiting the day when the Lady reappears and says "I am the Quasi-Incarnation."   :laugh:

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #273 on: December 16, 2011, 04:15:04 PM »
So I again restate my follow up question:

So why does some legalistic mumbo jumbo need to be done for Christ? If a lineage of purity is not necessary for Mary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

it just seems to me that this is trying to defend the ridiculous.

PP
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Offline peteprint

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #274 on: December 16, 2011, 04:20:25 PM »
It is an authentic teaching of Catholic tradition,whether or not it is considered to be a teaching from scripture. The Catholic Church and and Orthodox churches don't just  cull their doctrines from scripture through Catholic tradition,they also teach doctrines that have been passed on from the apostles and ancient theologians which are not found in scripture. Some Catholic doctrines are confirmed by visitations of Jesus and ary to saints. Instead of just criticizing the doctrine based on scripture and Greek and Eastern tradition,you should consider whether Mary really appeared to St. Bernadette and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception".


Eagerly awaiting the day when the Lady reappears and says "I am the Quasi-Incarnation."   :laugh:

More likely Father, it will be "I am the Co-Redeemer,"  "you have offended me and need to make reparations or calamities will strike," that sort of thing.

Offline peteprint

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #275 on: December 16, 2011, 04:24:18 PM »

Offline AWR

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #276 on: December 16, 2011, 04:24:32 PM »
So I again restate my follow up question:

So why does some legalistic mumbo jumbo need to be done for Christ? If a lineage of purity is not necessary for Mary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

it just seems to me that this is trying to defend the ridiculous.

PP


To fulfill the words of the Prophets?


Offline primuspilus

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #277 on: December 16, 2011, 04:30:36 PM »
So I again restate my follow up question:

So why does some legalistic mumbo jumbo need to be done for Christ? If a lineage of purity is not necessary for Mary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

it just seems to me that this is trying to defend the ridiculous.

PP

Thats new. Explain.
To fulfill the words of the Prophets?


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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #278 on: December 16, 2011, 04:35:44 PM »
Quote
Anthony: It was not necessary for her parents and ancestors to be immaculately conceived,because only she was to bear Christ. Her purity of conception doesn't depend upon a lineage of a pure conceptions,as if God had to do it in a mechanistic way.
She received her human nature in the same mechanistic way the rest of us got ours.  Otherwise she couldn't give it to Him Who knew no sin Whom God made sin for us.
She received her human nature the same way as we received ours,but she did not receive the guilt of original sin or the damage to human nature and will.
We keep on being told that, according to the Vatican, there is no guilt involved.  Can we get a clarification on that EM? Papist? Wyatt?

If she received her human nature the same way as we received ours, then she received ancestral sin, a fallen human nature and a gnomic will.

Hence the IC does not comport with the Orthodox teaching from the Scripture through the Catholic Tradition of the Church.

It is an authentic teaching of Catholic tradition,whether or not it is considered to be a teaching from scripture.

It is against scripture, so it is not an authentic teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Of the Vatican it might be, though we get conflicting reports of its "magisterium" authenticating teachings.

The Catholic Church and and Orthodox churches don't just  cull their doctrines from scripture through Catholic tradition,they also teach doctrines that have been passed on from the apostles and ancient theologians which are not found in scripture.
That the Orthodox Catholic Church does, but her Tradition and scripture are not opposed but one and the same.

The Vatican teaches things the Apostles and Fathers never dreamed of, let alone taught, which it made up.  Like the IC.

Some Catholic doctrines are confirmed by visitations of Jesus and Mary to saints.
Odd how the Vatican didn't look for confirmation from "visionaries" until it went in schism from us.

Instead of just criticizing the doctrine based on scripture and Greek and Eastern tradition,
I criticize it on Western Tradition (and common sense):somewhere here I've posted your Bernhardt of Clairveaux's denouncement of it when it first appeared in the West.  I also have criticized its basis on the faulty Latin translation of the Vulgate, cited in Ineffibilis Deus.

you should consider whether Mary really appeared to St. Bernadette and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception".
If even an angel of light preaches to you another Gospel than what the Apostles preached, let it be accused.  That's all I need to consider.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 04:36:07 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #279 on: December 16, 2011, 04:36:43 PM »
So I again restate my follow up question:

So why does some legalistic mumbo jumbo need to be done for Christ? If a lineage of purity is not necessary for Mary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

it just seems to me that this is trying to defend the ridiculous.

PP



To fulfill the words of the Prophets?


What prophet?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #280 on: December 16, 2011, 04:41:34 PM »
So I again restate my follow up question:

So why does some legalistic mumbo jumbo need to be done for Christ? If a lineage of purity is not necessary for Mary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

it just seems to me that this is trying to defend the ridiculous.

PP



To fulfill the words of the Prophets?


What prophet?
I've never head of a IC prophesy.......

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #281 on: December 16, 2011, 04:43:21 PM »
He made Him Who knew no sin to become sin for us.  II Corinthians 5:21.

That's a figure of speech. Christ bore our sins and suffered and was put to death as if he were guilty of them,to atone for our sins. But he did not actually become sin itself. Sin is neither divine nor human.
so the incarnation and redemption are just a "figure of speech.

So much for your "need," which in fact contradicts scripture on this very point.  

If she is immaculately conceived, then Christ did not assume fallen humanity to raise it up.

He assumed humanity,but not our fallen nature. He did not exalt our inclination to sin. There's a difference between our human weakness of sinful inclinations and our human weakness of suffering and death.
No, they are one and the same.  Death is sin incarnate. As the Fathers said, what is not assumed is not saved, and if the IC is true, then He did not assume our humanity.

A human person remains essentially what he or she is at conception until death.

Quote
So baptism is useless, and you are still lost in your sins.

Baptism cleanses us of the guilt of original sin,it does not remove the damage caused by original sin. That is obvious from experience. We still have a weakness for sin for not being in a perfect state of grace,we are still physically imperfect and frail,and we still die.
Again, can we get a clarification from ElijahMaria, Papist or Wyatt on this "guilt of original sin"?

And if the Holy Theotokos was IC'd, then there is no reason for her to die.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline witega

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #282 on: December 16, 2011, 05:51:33 PM »
Instead of just criticizing the doctrine based on scripture and Greek and Eastern tradition,you should consider whether Mary really appeared to St. Bernadette and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception".

Too easy...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Roman Church still did the sensible thing of testing visitations and apparitions by testing their teaching against the received doctrine of the Church? You have to be able to determine if the Immaculate Conception is a valid teaching of the Church (from the Scripture, Tradition and Consensus Patrum) before you can start to consider whether what Bernadette saw was a true vision of the Mother of God or a demonic delusion or a neurochemical imbalance--otherwise, your doctrine is always captive to the next crank raving about the what the angels tell him.
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Offline AWR

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #283 on: December 16, 2011, 07:07:44 PM »
So I again restate my follow up question:

So why does some legalistic mumbo jumbo need to be done for Christ? If a lineage of purity is not necessary for Mary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

it just seems to me that this is trying to defend the ridiculous.

PP



To fulfill the words of the Prophets?


What prophet?
I've never head of a IC prophesy.......

PP

Sorry,I said a bit tongue-in-cheek. The point is that there is no prophecy.  Everything that went on at that time can be found in Old Testament prophecy, but not this.   It is implied the old Adam came from nothing but the pure earth (dust), so the new Adam came from a pure Woman. (But that may be a stretch).  There is no prophecy; I think it did not happen.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #284 on: December 17, 2011, 12:49:29 PM »
Just came across this "gem":
Quote
Can Natural Law be erased from the human heart?

In Adam and Eve before the fall, and in Jesus and Mary, the human passions were perfectly submitted to the intellect and will. It looked like this: Intellect > Will > Passions. After the fall of our first parents, our passions have been trying to run the show. Saint Paul refers to the passions collectively as "the flesh."
http://cantuar.blogspot.com/2011/12/can-natural-law-be-erased-from-human.html
no explanation how Mary and not the rest of us escapes being a slave to the passions.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #285 on: December 17, 2011, 12:51:09 PM »
Instead of just criticizing the doctrine based on scripture and Greek and Eastern tradition,you should consider whether Mary really appeared to St. Bernadette and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception".

Too easy...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Roman Church still did the sensible thing of testing visitations and apparitions by testing their teaching against the received doctrine of the Church? You have to be able to determine if the Immaculate Conception is a valid teaching of the Church (from the Scripture, Tradition and Consensus Patrum) before you can start to consider whether what Bernadette saw was a true vision of the Mother of God or a demonic delusion or a neurochemical imbalance--otherwise, your doctrine is always captive to the next crank raving about the what the angels tell him.
Given the cult of Fatima et alia, I'm not sure it is not.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #286 on: December 17, 2011, 01:05:26 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 01:07:41 PM by HandmaidenofGod »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #287 on: December 17, 2011, 02:06:54 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #288 on: December 17, 2011, 02:20:01 PM »
All I keep seeing in this thread are declarations of what the Immaculate Conception is not. Fake Denis would be proud.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 02:22:50 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #289 on: December 17, 2011, 02:32:13 PM »
All I keep seeing in this thread are declarations of what the Immaculate Conception is not. Fake Denis would be proud.
LOL. I have to remember that.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #290 on: December 17, 2011, 02:37:35 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.

elijahmaria, your comments do not surprise me. I've never seen you support any kind of Orthodox text or podcast as accurately portraying anything from the Catholic Church. Anytime an Orthodox writer says or writes anything about Rome, you denounce it as wrong and misrepresenting the Catholic Church. Why you continue to come to this board when all you do is complain about how mean we are to Catholics and how we spread lies about Catholics is beyond me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've never heard you say one nice thing about the Orthodox Church or our relations with the Catholic Church.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #291 on: December 17, 2011, 02:38:25 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.
Can't play the podcast, so I cannot tell if it conveys the Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception, and that is what has upset the dutiful daughter of the Vatican, or that it misrepresents Vatican teaching in the process.  Since there are no specific objections made, I'm inclined to think that the later is not at issue.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #292 on: December 17, 2011, 02:52:23 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.

elijahmaria, your comments do not surprise me. I've never seen you support any kind of Orthodox text or podcast as accurately portraying anything from the Catholic Church. Anytime an Orthodox writer says or writes anything about Rome, you denounce it as wrong and misrepresenting the Catholic Church. Why you continue to come to this board when all you do is complain about how mean we are to Catholics and how we spread lies about Catholics is beyond me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've never heard you say one nice thing about the Orthodox Church or our relations with the Catholic Church.

The only complaints that I have about Orthodoxy is when Orthodox believers try to tell the Catholic Church what she teaches...and only then when they are wrong.

You can be wrong can't you?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #293 on: December 17, 2011, 02:53:49 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.
Can't play the podcast, so I cannot tell if it conveys the Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception, and that is what has upset the dutiful daughter of the Vatican, or that it misrepresents Vatican teaching in the process.  Since there are no specific objections made, I'm inclined to think that the later is not at issue.

You could not tell in any event given what you say here to be "truth" about the teaching.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #294 on: December 17, 2011, 03:23:02 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.

elijahmaria, your comments do not surprise me. I've never seen you support any kind of Orthodox text or podcast as accurately portraying anything from the Catholic Church. Anytime an Orthodox writer says or writes anything about Rome, you denounce it as wrong and misrepresenting the Catholic Church. Why you continue to come to this board when all you do is complain about how mean we are to Catholics and how we spread lies about Catholics is beyond me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've never heard you say one nice thing about the Orthodox Church or our relations with the Catholic Church.

The only complaints that I have about Orthodoxy is when Orthodox believers try to tell the Catholic Church what she teaches...and only then when they are wrong.

You can be wrong can't you?
Comparing the track record, my money is on HandmaidenofGod.

Your supreme pontiff, even when speaking ex cathedra, and his/your magisterium, can be wrong.  And on the IC, they are.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 03:23:46 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #295 on: December 17, 2011, 03:26:17 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.
Can't play the podcast, so I cannot tell if it conveys the Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception, and that is what has upset the dutiful daughter of the Vatican, or that it misrepresents Vatican teaching in the process.  Since there are no specific objections made, I'm inclined to think that the later is not at issue.

You could not tell in any event given what you say here to be "truth" about the teaching.

I admit that freely. It is a rather sticky problem to state the true teaching of a false doctrine.  Sort of like deciding who was the real supreme pontiff, Pope Eugene or Pope Felix: if the latter, we don't have to get into the debate whether Florence was Ecumenical or not.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #296 on: December 17, 2011, 03:27:00 PM »

Your supreme pontiff, even when speaking ex cathedra, and his/your magisterium, can be wrong.  And on the IC, they are.

So you say...and you are wrong.  Pity.

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #297 on: December 17, 2011, 03:50:03 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.

elijahmaria, your comments do not surprise me. I've never seen you support any kind of Orthodox text or podcast as accurately portraying anything from the Catholic Church. Anytime an Orthodox writer says or writes anything about Rome, you denounce it as wrong and misrepresenting the Catholic Church. Why you continue to come to this board when all you do is complain about how mean we are to Catholics and how we spread lies about Catholics is beyond me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've never heard you say one nice thing about the Orthodox Church or our relations with the Catholic Church.

The only about that I have about Orthodoxy is when Orthodox believers try to tell the Catholic Church what she teaches...and only then when they are wrong.

You can be wrong can't you?

I Have no problem admitting when I am wrong, however your comments regarding the podcast are nothing more than an ad homonym attack. You do not state what was incorrect, nor do you cite references to prove your point. After all, since we Orthodox seem to be in the dark about Rome's doctrine, won't you please enlighten us?

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #298 on: December 17, 2011, 03:55:45 PM »

Your supreme pontiff, even when speaking ex cathedra, and his/your magisterium, can be wrong.  And on the IC, they are.

So you say...and you are wrong.  Pity.
No, so the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has said and says.  I just agree, repeat and (unlike you and your allegations) substantiate and source.

"You are wrong" Sic Maria dixt +(insert date)

You should get a template like that. It would save you a lot of typing.

Btw, on this subject, a couple times you have aluded to the texts of the feast of the conception of St. Anne and IIRC also the Nativity of the Theotokos as "proof" of the IC.  Did you ever post said texts?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #299 on: December 17, 2011, 04:02:29 PM »

Your supreme pontiff, even when speaking ex cathedra, and his/your magisterium, can be wrong.  And on the IC, they are.

So you say...and you are wrong.  Pity.
No, so the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has said and says.  I just agree, repeat and (unlike you and your allegations) substantiate and source.

"You are wrong" Sic Maria dixt +(insert date)

You should get a template like that. It would save you a lot of typing.

Btw, on this subject, a couple times you have aluded to the texts of the feast of the conception of St. Anne and IIRC also the Nativity of the Theotokos as "proof" of the IC.  Did you ever post said texts?

I never said the texts "proved" the Immaculate Conception.  I said that they were Orthodox liturgical texts that stood in juxtaposition against the often asserted idea that the Immaculate Conception is the "great exception"...and the idea that the Mother of God is "just like us" which is something I hear over and over again on Orthodox venues.  I said that the actual texts would not preclude the possibility that she was holy in a unique way from the moment of her becoming a person.

I have published the texts several times here and on other venues.  They are available in the Mother Mary/Bishop Ware Festal Menaion.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #300 on: December 17, 2011, 04:05:49 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.

elijahmaria, your comments do not surprise me. I've never seen you support any kind of Orthodox text or podcast as accurately portraying anything from the Catholic Church. Anytime an Orthodox writer says or writes anything about Rome, you denounce it as wrong and misrepresenting the Catholic Church. Why you continue to come to this board when all you do is complain about how mean we are to Catholics and how we spread lies about Catholics is beyond me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've never heard you say one nice thing about the Orthodox Church or our relations with the Catholic Church.

The only about that I have about Orthodoxy is when Orthodox believers try to tell the Catholic Church what she teaches...and only then when they are wrong.

You can be wrong can't you?

I Have no problem admitting when I am wrong, however your comments regarding the podcast are nothing more than an ad homonym attack. You do not state what was incorrect, nor do you cite references to prove your point. After all, since we Orthodox seem to be in the dark about Rome's doctrine, won't you please enlighten us?


I have NEVER in my life attacked an ad homonym!!... ;)

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #301 on: December 17, 2011, 04:36:25 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.

elijahmaria, your comments do not surprise me. I've never seen you support any kind of Orthodox text or podcast as accurately portraying anything from the Catholic Church. Anytime an Orthodox writer says or writes anything about Rome, you denounce it as wrong and misrepresenting the Catholic Church. Why you continue to come to this board when all you do is complain about how mean we are to Catholics and how we spread lies about Catholics is beyond me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've never heard you say one nice thing about the Orthodox Church or our relations with the Catholic Church.

The only about that I have about Orthodoxy is when Orthodox believers try to tell the Catholic Church what she teaches...and only then when they are wrong.

You can be wrong can't you?

I Have no problem admitting when I am wrong, however your comments regarding the podcast are nothing more than an ad homonym attack. You do not state what was incorrect, nor do you cite references to prove your point. After all, since we Orthodox seem to be in the dark about Rome's doctrine, won't you please enlighten us?


I have NEVER in my life attacked an ad homonym!!... ;)

Cute.

I see you making jokes and saying you've quoted sources before, but you still haven't explained what was wrong in the broadcast, nor have you provided references to back up your statements.

Therefore, me thinks you may just be trolling the board, and causing strife for the sake of causing strife.
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #302 on: December 17, 2011, 04:49:54 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.

elijahmaria, your comments do not surprise me. I've never seen you support any kind of Orthodox text or podcast as accurately portraying anything from the Catholic Church. Anytime an Orthodox writer says or writes anything about Rome, you denounce it as wrong and misrepresenting the Catholic Church. Why you continue to come to this board when all you do is complain about how mean we are to Catholics and how we spread lies about Catholics is beyond me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've never heard you say one nice thing about the Orthodox Church or our relations with the Catholic Church.

The only about that I have about Orthodoxy is when Orthodox believers try to tell the Catholic Church what she teaches...and only then when they are wrong.

You can be wrong can't you?

I Have no problem admitting when I am wrong, however your comments regarding the podcast are nothing more than an ad homonym attack. You do not state what was incorrect, nor do you cite references to prove your point. After all, since we Orthodox seem to be in the dark about Rome's doctrine, won't you please enlighten us?


I have NEVER in my life attacked an ad homonym!!... ;)

Cute.

I see you making jokes and saying you've quoted sources before, but you still haven't explained what was wrong in the broadcast, nor have you provided references to back up your statements.

Therefore, me thinks you may just be trolling the board, and causing strife for the sake of causing strife.

Wasn't meant to be cute..."ad homonym" is not quite right.  I was trying to point toward your error by making light of it.

You are certainly entitled to your errors and your opinion.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 04:50:27 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline LBK

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #303 on: December 17, 2011, 05:06:22 PM »
Quote
I never said the texts "proved" the Immaculate Conception.  I said that they were Orthodox liturgical texts that stood in juxtaposition against the often asserted idea that the Immaculate Conception is the "great exception"...and the idea that the Mother of God is "just like us" which is something I hear over and over again on Orthodox venues.  I said that the actual texts would not preclude the possibility that she was holy in a unique way from the moment of her becoming a person.

I have published the texts several times here and on other venues.  They are available in the Mother Mary/Bishop Ware Festal Menaion.

The texts you quoted in the thread we both contributed to were of the Orthodox service for the Conception of the Mother of God. There is nothing in those texts which support the IC. The texts for this feast in your Byzantine Catholic service, which I posted, include verses for the Litia which proclaim the IC. These verses are additions to conform with Roman Catholic doctrine, and are not found in any Orthodox menaion, including that compiled by the Bishop Kallistos and Mother Mary. The Orthodox hymnography does not include a Litia. It is a lower-ranking feast. The BC feast is of full Vigil rank.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #304 on: December 17, 2011, 05:09:43 PM »
Quote
I never said the texts "proved" the Immaculate Conception.  I said that they were Orthodox liturgical texts that stood in juxtaposition against the often asserted idea that the Immaculate Conception is the "great exception"...and the idea that the Mother of God is "just like us" which is something I hear over and over again on Orthodox venues.  I said that the actual texts would not preclude the possibility that she was holy in a unique way from the moment of her becoming a person.

I have published the texts several times here and on other venues.  They are available in the Mother Mary/Bishop Ware Festal Menaion.

The texts you quoted in the thread we both contributed to were of the Orthodox service for the Conception of the Mother of God. There is nothing in those texts which support the IC. The texts for this feast in your Byzantine Catholic service, which I posted, include verses for the Litia which proclaim the IC. These verses are additions to conform with Roman Catholic doctrine, and are not found in any Orthodox menaion, including that compiled by the Bishop Kallistos and Mother Mary. The Orthodox hymnography does not include a Litia. It is a lower-ranking feast. The BC feast is of full Vigil rank.

This takes nothing away from what I have actually said.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #305 on: December 17, 2011, 05:25:16 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.


There are TWO teachings in the Catholic Church concerning the Immaculate Conception - the ROMAN Catholic and the EASTERN Catholic.  To which are you referring?   Are you speaking as a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Catholic?

Offline LBK

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #306 on: December 17, 2011, 05:31:38 PM »
Quote
I never said the texts "proved" the Immaculate Conception.  I said that they were Orthodox liturgical texts that stood in juxtaposition against the often asserted idea that the Immaculate Conception is the "great exception"...and the idea that the Mother of God is "just like us" which is something I hear over and over again on Orthodox venues.  I said that the actual texts would not preclude the possibility that she was holy in a unique way from the moment of her becoming a person.

I have published the texts several times here and on other venues.  They are available in the Mother Mary/Bishop Ware Festal Menaion.

The texts you quoted in the thread we both contributed to were of the Orthodox service for the Conception of the Mother of God. There is nothing in those texts which support the IC. The texts for this feast in your Byzantine Catholic service, which I posted, include verses for the Litia which proclaim the IC. These verses are additions to conform with Roman Catholic doctrine, and are not found in any Orthodox menaion, including that compiled by the Bishop Kallistos and Mother Mary. The Orthodox hymnography does not include a Litia. It is a lower-ranking feast. The BC feast is of full Vigil rank.

This takes nothing away from what I have actually said.

Nonsense. Go back to that thread, and you'll find yourself desperately trying to show that the Orthodox hymnography of both the Conception and the Entry into the Temple supports the IC. Which it clearly doesn't, as I demonstrated. The fact that the Byzantine Catholics, who are subject, after all, to Rome, have added hymnography proclaiming the IC to the Conception feast speaks volumes. If the existing Orthodox hymnography was sufficient, why the need to add to it?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #307 on: December 17, 2011, 05:36:31 PM »

Your supreme pontiff, even when speaking ex cathedra, and his/your magisterium, can be wrong.  And on the IC, they are.

So you say...and you are wrong.  Pity.
No, so the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has said and says.  I just agree, repeat and (unlike you and your allegations) substantiate and source.

"You are wrong" Sic Maria dixt +(insert date)

You should get a template like that. It would save you a lot of typing.

Btw, on this subject, a couple times you have aluded to the texts of the feast of the conception of St. Anne and IIRC also the Nativity of the Theotokos as "proof" of the IC.  Did you ever post said texts?

I never said the texts "proved" the Immaculate Conception.  I said that they were Orthodox liturgical texts that stood in juxtaposition against the often asserted idea that the Immaculate Conception is the "great exception"...and the idea that the Mother of God is "just like us" which is something I hear over and over again on Orthodox venues.  I said that the actual texts would not preclude the possibility that she was holy in a unique way from the moment of her becoming a person.

I have published the texts several times here and on other venues.  They are available in the Mother Mary/Bishop Ware Festal Menaion.
1) the texts for the conception of St. Anne are NOT available in the MM/BW (now MW) Festal Menaion, as it is NOT a major feast (which is telling).
2) no such text in the Fest of the Nativity of the Theotokos supports you contention here.
3) I do not recall you posting any such texts. Can anyone verify for EM, as she won't?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #308 on: December 17, 2011, 05:37:12 PM »

Your supreme pontiff, even when speaking ex cathedra, and his/your magisterium, can be wrong.  And on the IC, they are.

So you say...and you are wrong.  Pity.
No, so the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has said and says.  I just agree, repeat and (unlike you and your allegations) substantiate and source.

"You are wrong" Sic Maria dixt +(insert date)

You should get a template like that. It would save you a lot of typing.

Btw, on this subject, a couple times you have aluded to the texts of the feast of the conception of St. Anne and IIRC also the Nativity of the Theotokos as "proof" of the IC.  Did you ever post said texts?

I never said the texts "proved" the Immaculate Conception.  I said that they were Orthodox liturgical texts that stood in juxtaposition against the often asserted idea that the Immaculate Conception is the "great exception"...and the idea that the Mother of God is "just like us" which is something I hear over and over again on Orthodox venues.  I said that the actual texts would not preclude the possibility that she was holy in a unique way from the moment of her becoming a person.

I have published the texts several times here and on other venues.  They are available in the Mother Mary/Bishop Ware Festal Menaion.


Removed.  I see I was just duplicating LBK's words.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 05:44:27 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #309 on: December 17, 2011, 05:42:15 PM »
Another quotation dealing with Mary's impeccability (i.e., her inability to sin):



"From the very first moment of her existence, Mary was not only holy, but was also confirmed in the state of sanctity and rendered impeccable to the end, that she might not be subject to sin, nor degenerate from the state of grace, in which she had been created. And the abundance of grace, from that first instant of her being, was so copious that it could be termed fullness of grace; not because that grace was not capable of increase, but because the abundance was such that, according to the holy fathers, she in that first moment received a greater amount of grace than all the choirs of angels and the entire multitude of saints had ever received."

Fr. Raphael Melia
Mary: The Object of Veneration, Confidence, and Imitation to all Christians
(London:  Longmans, Green, and Company, 1868)
Page 78


« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 05:54:59 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #310 on: December 17, 2011, 05:42:34 PM »
The below podcast of "Come Receive the Light" from The Orthodox Christian Network explains the Orthodox position of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I believe all can benefit from this:

Come Receive the Light: The Immaculate Conception

Whatever this does it does NOT convey Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception.

Very discouraging.

elijahmaria, your comments do not surprise me. I've never seen you support any kind of Orthodox text or podcast as accurately portraying anything from the Catholic Church. Anytime an Orthodox writer says or writes anything about Rome, you denounce it as wrong and misrepresenting the Catholic Church. Why you continue to come to this board when all you do is complain about how mean we are to Catholics and how we spread lies about Catholics is beyond me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've never heard you say one nice thing about the Orthodox Church or our relations with the Catholic Church.

The only about that I have about Orthodoxy is when Orthodox believers try to tell the Catholic Church what she teaches...and only then when they are wrong.

You can be wrong can't you?

I Have no problem admitting when I am wrong, however your comments regarding the podcast are nothing more than an ad homonym attack. You do not state what was incorrect, nor do you cite references to prove your point. After all, since we Orthodox seem to be in the dark about Rome's doctrine, won't you please enlighten us?


I have NEVER in my life attacked an ad homonym!!... ;)
HandmaidendofGod didn't say you ever attacked an ad hominem.

She just stated-correctly-that you just launched an ad hominem attack.

HMG's homonym for hominem notwithstanding.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #311 on: December 17, 2011, 05:44:00 PM »
So aside from not being true, what other observations can we make about the IC apophatically? :P
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #312 on: December 17, 2011, 05:54:49 PM »
The following text is taken from St. Bernardino of Siena's sermons (Sermon 4, art. 3, ch. 2), and it makes the common Scholastic distinction between Mary's ability not to sin from the womb, and her inability to sin after the Annunciation (i.e., her impeccability from the moment of the Incarnation):



"The second flame of the Virgin is called her inability to sin. Although, as is clear from what has been said, the blessed Virgin had received a strong restriction on the inclination to sin so that she could not be led into any sin, there still remained in her essence an inclination to sin. But her second sanctification in the conception of the Son of God added to her a total wiping away and eradication of the inclination to sin and a confirmation in good; so that while before she was [able not] to sin, now she could not sin. The Angel expresses these two effects in Luke 1:28-35 when he says firstly: Hail full of grace, and secondly: The Holy Spirit shall come upon you; these apply to the first effect. For the second effect he adds: and the power of the Most High shall overshadow you."

St. Bernardino of Siena (b. 1380 - d. 1444)
Sermon 4:  On feasts of the Blessed Virgin and especially on the Feasts of her Conception, Birth, and Annunciation





« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 06:01:26 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #313 on: December 17, 2011, 05:58:30 PM »
So aside from not being true, what other observations can we make about the IC apophatically? :P
"It didn't happen."-Fake Dionysios
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Imaculate Conception
« Reply #314 on: December 17, 2011, 06:16:42 PM »
Wasn't meant to be cute..."ad homonym" is not quite right.  I was trying to point toward your error by making light of it.

You are certainly entitled to your errors and your opinion.

Congratulations, you've spotted my spelling error. Good for you. Try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back.

I'm still waiting for your to inform me as to what in the broadcast was incorrect, and for the appropriate sources as the where the correct information can be found.

I listen to Orthodox Christian Network quite regularly; I would hate to be misled down the path of incorrect information when someone such as yourself can enlighten me with the correct manner of thinking.

So far all you have done is made sarcastic remarks.
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11