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Author Topic: Imaculate Conception  (Read 18378 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: December 01, 2011, 09:41:14 PM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42

One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.
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« Reply #181 on: December 01, 2011, 09:43:43 PM »

The list of priests, bishops, cardinals, and saints, who believe that Mary was impeccable continues to grow, and sadly they are all - according to some posters in this thread - in error on this topic:


Johannes Tauler, OP

Fr. John Hardon, S.J.

Fr. Juniper B. Carol, OFM

Fr. Bernard John Otten, S.J.

Fr. Paul Haffner

Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J.

Fr. Joseph Pohle

Fr. Matthias J. Scheeben

Fr. Eamon R. Carroll, O.Carm.

Fr. Peter Fehlner

Peitro Cardinal Parente, Archbishop of Perugia, and Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Pope Paul VI

Msgr. Antonio Piolanti

Msgr. Salvatore Garofalo

Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.

Fr. Peter Stravinskas

Joseph Wilhelm, D.D., Ph.D.

Thomas B. Scannell, D.D.

Fr. Adolphe Tanquerey

Msgr. Romualdo Gentilucci

Fr. Augustine Francis Hewit

Cardinal Bedini, Archibishop of Thebes, and Secretary of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith

St. Peter Julian Eymard

« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 10:06:51 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #182 on: December 01, 2011, 09:45:47 PM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42

One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.
That is false, because theosis is a neverending process of growth in holiness.
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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
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« Reply #183 on: December 01, 2011, 10:26:39 PM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42

One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.
That is false, because theosis is a neverending process of growth in holiness.

Impeccability and theosis are NOT equivalents.
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« Reply #184 on: December 01, 2011, 10:29:12 PM »

The list of priests, bishops, cardinals, and saints, who believe that Mary was impeccable continues to grow, and sadly they are all - according to some posters in this thread - in error on this topic:


Johannes Tauler, OP

Fr. John Hardon, S.J.

Fr. Juniper B. Carol, OFM

Fr. Bernard John Otten, S.J.

Fr. Paul Haffner

Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J.

Fr. Joseph Pohle

Fr. Matthias J. Scheeben

Fr. Eamon R. Carroll, O.Carm.

Fr. Peter Fehlner

Peitro Cardinal Parente, Archbishop of Perugia, and Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Pope Paul VI

Msgr. Antonio Piolanti

Msgr. Salvatore Garofalo

Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.

Fr. Peter Stravinskas

Joseph Wilhelm, D.D., Ph.D.

Thomas B. Scannell, D.D.

Fr. Adolphe Tanquerey

Msgr. Romualdo Gentilucci

Fr. Augustine Francis Hewit

Cardinal Bedini, Archibishop of Thebes, and Secretary of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith

St. Peter Julian Eymard




That is a puny number compared to ALL of the possible candidates for the title "theologian" in the past few hundred years.
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« Reply #185 on: December 01, 2011, 10:29:32 PM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42

One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.
That is false, because theosis is a neverending process of growth in holiness.
If you have such a beef with the Catholic Church why don't you just become Eastern Orthodox? If you truly are so convinced that YOU know what our Church formally teaches and are unwilling to hear of anything else, then you do a great disservice to yourself by remaining in a communion you consider heretical. I belong to the Catholic Church because I believe she has the means of salvation and is the Church founded by Jesus Christ. If you no longer believe this then why do you choose to remain Catholic? If I believed that the Eastern Orthodox Church was "the Church" then I would certainly leave and become Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #186 on: December 01, 2011, 10:41:12 PM »

Again we have to say that over the centuries the Church has always listened to her theologians yet certainly not all of what they have had to say has become formal doctrine, much less has it been dogmatically defined.
It is sad that so many priests, bishops, cardinals, and saints, have been wrong on this issue, believing that Mary could not sin because of the special graces given to her through her immaculate conception.  Even Pope Pius IX, who graciously accepted the dedication of Msgr. Gentilucci's book to him through a letter written by Cardinal Bedini, the Secretary of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, was evidently fooled into accepting the idea that Mary was impeccable.  It is truly sad to see all this confusion in the Roman Catholic Church.

It is no more confusion than that holy mess we call "patristic consensus"...

It is only you trying to cast a pall over your own religious organization that prompts you to cast your observations in such a dull and ugly light.

There is room in the Church for speculation.  It is through that interplay of inspirations of the nous that the truth can be most clearly revealed in time.

Even you and your clear efforts to deform is welcome.

I have to say that I find this unfair.  What Apotheoun has done is present forum members with the writings of 22 reputable Catholic theologians.   There is an absolutely clear consensus among them on the impeccability of the Mother of God.
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« Reply #187 on: December 01, 2011, 10:44:46 PM »

Again we have to say that over the centuries the Church has always listened to her theologians yet certainly not all of what they have had to say has become formal doctrine, much less has it been dogmatically defined.
It is sad that so many priests, bishops, cardinals, and saints, have been wrong on this issue, believing that Mary could not sin because of the special graces given to her through her immaculate conception.  Even Pope Pius IX, who graciously accepted the dedication of Msgr. Gentilucci's book to him through a letter written by Cardinal Bedini, the Secretary of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, was evidently fooled into accepting the idea that Mary was impeccable.  It is truly sad to see all this confusion in the Roman Catholic Church.

It is no more confusion than that holy mess we call "patristic consensus"...

It is only you trying to cast a pall over your own religious organization that prompts you to cast your observations in such a dull and ugly light.

There is room in the Church for speculation.  It is through that interplay of inspirations of the nous that the truth can be most clearly revealed in time.

Even you and your clear efforts to deform is welcome.

I have to say that I find this unfair.  What Apotheoun has done is present forum members with the writings of 22 reputable Catholic theologians.   There is an absolutely clear consensus among them on the impeccability of the Mother of God.

My comments are directly addressed to his editorializing.  They are not unfair at all.  In fact my comments are warranted by his editorial comments.

As I mentioned earlier...22 is a puny number compared to all possible candidates for the title of theologian in the Catholic Church for the time period covered.
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« Reply #188 on: December 01, 2011, 10:48:54 PM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42

One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.

So at the time of the Annunciation when you believe that She "achieved theosis"  all spiritual development ceased for her?  Her holiness became frozen at that point for eternity?
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« Reply #189 on: December 01, 2011, 10:52:10 PM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42

One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.

So at the time of the Annunciation when you believe that She "achieved theosis"  all spiritual development ceased for her?  Her holiness became frozen at that point for eternity?

Regardless of what I believe, that does not follow.  Theosis and Impeccability are still not one to one equivalents.
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« Reply #190 on: December 01, 2011, 10:53:22 PM »

Again we have to say that over the centuries the Church has always listened to her theologians yet certainly not all of what they have had to say has become formal doctrine, much less has it been dogmatically defined.
It is sad that so many priests, bishops, cardinals, and saints, have been wrong on this issue, believing that Mary could not sin because of the special graces given to her through her immaculate conception.  Even Pope Pius IX, who graciously accepted the dedication of Msgr. Gentilucci's book to him through a letter written by Cardinal Bedini, the Secretary of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, was evidently fooled into accepting the idea that Mary was impeccable.  It is truly sad to see all this confusion in the Roman Catholic Church.

It is no more confusion than that holy mess we call "patristic consensus"...

It is only you trying to cast a pall over your own religious organization that prompts you to cast your observations in such a dull and ugly light.

There is room in the Church for speculation.  It is through that interplay of inspirations of the nous that the truth can be most clearly revealed in time.

Even you and your clear efforts to deform is welcome.

I have to say that I find this unfair.  What Apotheoun has done is present forum members with the writings of 22 reputable Catholic theologians.   There is an absolutely clear consensus among them on the impeccability of the Mother of God.

My comments are directly addressed to his editorializing.  They are not unfair at all.  In fact my comments are warranted by his editorial comments.

I mentioned earlier...22 is a puny number compared to all possible candidates for the title of theologian in the Catholic Church for the time period covered.

We have not seen anything at all from any theologian presenting a contrary view.  If you know of them, please let's see them.
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« Reply #191 on: December 01, 2011, 11:10:31 PM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42

One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.

So at the time of the Annunciation when you believe that She "achieved theosis"  all spiritual development ceased for her?  Her holiness became frozen at that point for eternity?

Regardless of what I believe, that does not follow.  Theosis and Impeccability are still not one to one equivalents.

Of course not!

Theosis is something proper to human beings.

Impeccabilitas is something unknown to human beings, with the exception of the God-Man.
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« Reply #192 on: December 01, 2011, 11:17:07 PM »

Again we have to say that over the centuries the Church has always listened to her theologians yet certainly not all of what they have had to say has become formal doctrine, much less has it been dogmatically defined.
It is sad that so many priests, bishops, cardinals, and saints, have been wrong on this issue, believing that Mary could not sin because of the special graces given to her through her immaculate conception.  Even Pope Pius IX, who graciously accepted the dedication of Msgr. Gentilucci's book to him through a letter written by Cardinal Bedini, the Secretary of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, was evidently fooled into accepting the idea that Mary was impeccable.  It is truly sad to see all this confusion in the Roman Catholic Church.

It is no more confusion than that holy mess we call "patristic consensus"...

It is only you trying to cast a pall over your own religious organization that prompts you to cast your observations in such a dull and ugly light.

There is room in the Church for speculation.  It is through that interplay of inspirations of the nous that the truth can be most clearly revealed in time.

Even you and your clear efforts to deform is welcome.

I have to say that I find this unfair.  What Apotheoun has done is present forum members with the writings of 22 reputable Catholic theologians.   There is an absolutely clear consensus among them on the impeccability of the Mother of God.

My comments are directly addressed to his editorializing.  They are not unfair at all.  In fact my comments are warranted by his editorial comments.

I mentioned earlier...22 is a puny number compared to all possible candidates for the title of theologian in the Catholic Church for the time period covered.

We have not seen anything at all from any theologian presenting a contrary view.  If you know of them, please let's see them.

What would you be looking for?  I have never said these theologians are wrong.  I have noted those passages where there is a more clear teaching than in most.  As long as one understands that her impeccability is not as absolute and natural as that of her son, then I expect we'll be on fairly safe ground.  Without the grace to sustain her in holiness, she certainly could have sinned, and had she at any point rejected that grace, she also could have sinned.

What is meant by impeccability in these out-of-context texts?  One or two make it quite clear:  The others...not so much.
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« Reply #193 on: December 01, 2011, 11:21:52 PM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42
One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.
That is false, because theosis is a neverending process of growth in holiness.
If you have such a beef with the Catholic Church why don't you just become Eastern Orthodox?
What are you talking about?  So the fact that I agree with St. Peter Julian Eymard, and disagree with Elijahmaria, that an impeccable saint can continue to grow in holiness is a beef with the Roman Church?

I really do not understand your reticence to accept the idea that Mary - based upon the quotations that I have provided from a wide spectrum of reputable Catholic theologians - was impeccable because of the graces and privileges given to her by God.  Go figure.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 11:22:48 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
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« Reply #194 on: December 01, 2011, 11:22:45 PM »

Again we have to say that over the centuries the Church has always listened to her theologians yet certainly not all of what they have had to say has become formal doctrine, much less has it been dogmatically defined.
It is sad that so many priests, bishops, cardinals, and saints, have been wrong on this issue, believing that Mary could not sin because of the special graces given to her through her immaculate conception.  Even Pope Pius IX, who graciously accepted the dedication of Msgr. Gentilucci's book to him through a letter written by Cardinal Bedini, the Secretary of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, was evidently fooled into accepting the idea that Mary was impeccable.  It is truly sad to see all this confusion in the Roman Catholic Church.

It is no more confusion than that holy mess we call "patristic consensus"...

It is only you trying to cast a pall over your own religious organization that prompts you to cast your observations in such a dull and ugly light.

There is room in the Church for speculation.  It is through that interplay of inspirations of the nous that the truth can be most clearly revealed in time.

Even you and your clear efforts to deform is welcome.

I have to say that I find this unfair.  What Apotheoun has done is present forum members with the writings of 22 reputable Catholic theologians.   There is an absolutely clear consensus among them on the impeccability of the Mother of God.

My comments are directly addressed to his editorializing.  They are not unfair at all.  In fact my comments are warranted by his editorial comments.

I mentioned earlier...22 is a puny number compared to all possible candidates for the title of theologian in the Catholic Church for the time period covered.

We have not seen anything at all from any theologian presenting a contrary view.  If you know of them, please let's see them.

What would you be looking for?  I have never said these theologians are wrong.  I have noted those passages where there is a more clear teaching than in most.  As long as one understands that her impeccability is not as absolute and natural as that of her son, then I expect we'll be on fairly safe ground.  Without the grace to sustain her in holiness, she certainly could have sinned, and had she at any point rejected that grace, she also could have sinned.

What is meant by impeccability in these out-of-context texts?  One or two make it quite clear:  The others...not so much.

I would imagine that the Eastenb Catholic Churches (emerging from Orthodoxy) have no concept of impeccabilitas.  So this would all be meaningless for them and for you.
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« Reply #195 on: December 02, 2011, 12:31:24 AM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42
One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.
That is false, because theosis is a neverending process of growth in holiness.
If you have such a beef with the Catholic Church why don't you just become Eastern Orthodox?
What are you talking about?  So the fact that I agree with St. Peter Julian Eymard, and disagree with Elijahmaria, that an impeccable saint can continue to grow in holiness is a beef with the Roman Church?

I really do not understand your reticence to accept the idea that Mary - based upon the quotations that I have provided from a wide spectrum of reputable Catholic theologians - was impeccable because of the graces and privileges given to her by God.  Go figure.

So since when has the word reticence been used that way?
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« Reply #196 on: December 02, 2011, 12:42:34 AM »

The Catholic Encyclopaedia, in unison with the theologians produced by Apotheoun:

“When there is question of sin, Mary must always be excepted. [81] Mary's complete exemption from actual sin is confirmed by the Council of Trent (Session VI, Canon 23): "If any one say that man once justified can during his whole life avoid all sins, even venial ones, as the Church holds that the Blessed Virgin did by special privilege of God, let him be anathema." Theologians assert that Mary was impeccable, not by the essential perfection of her nature, but by a special Divine privilege. Moreover, the Fathers, at least since the fifth century, almost unanimously maintain that the Blessed Virgin never experienced the motions of concupiscence.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm
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« Reply #197 on: December 02, 2011, 01:35:05 AM »

"This fidelity to her graces, made Mary constantly advance in all virtues. She watched over them, as if she feared to lose them. What a lesson for us! Whatever our graces, let us guard them carefully. Mary, the impeccable one, not by nature, but in consequence of her union with God - Mary whom temptation never approached, watched over herself and labored incessantly at the work of her sanctification. She was always advancing in holiness."

St. Peter Julian Eymard
Month of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament
(New York:  The Sentinel Press, 1901)
Page 42
One who is truly impeccable does not advance in holiness...by definition.
That is false, because theosis is a neverending process of growth in holiness.
If you have such a beef with the Catholic Church why don't you just become Eastern Orthodox?
What are you talking about?  So the fact that I agree with St. Peter Julian Eymard, and disagree with Elijahmaria, that an impeccable saint can continue to grow in holiness is a beef with the Roman Church?

I really do not understand your reticence to accept the idea that Mary - based upon the quotations that I have provided from a wide spectrum of reputable Catholic theologians - was impeccable because of the graces and privileges given to her by God.  Go figure.

A. Since when is the Catholic Church synonymous with just the Roman Church?

B. When did I say that I believe the Blessed Virgin Mary is impeccable? I have never even heard such terminology used in reference to her outside this forum.

My point was that, if you are going to say the Catholic Church (Roman and Eastern) believes that Mary is impeccable, you should be able to produce magisterial teaching that says that she was impeccable and, preferably, to go on to explain what exactly "impeccability" means. You did not do that and as far as I can tell you cannot because no such teaching exists. However, if you want to invent problems in your own mind that our Church supposedly has and refuse to believe otherwise, perhaps you would be more comfortable as Eastern Orthodox. It seems rather neurotic to be in communion with the Catholic Church and do everything you can to tear it down and drive people away from it with falsehood. If you find our Church so disgusting then why stay? Canonically you are Catholic but it seems anytime theological differences are discussed you side with Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #198 on: December 02, 2011, 12:21:11 PM »

The Catholic Encyclopaedia, in unison with the theologians produced by Apotheoun:

“When there is question of sin, Mary must always be excepted. [81] Mary's complete exemption from actual sin is confirmed by the Council of Trent (Session VI, Canon 23): "If any one say that man once justified can during his whole life avoid all sins, even venial ones, as the Church holds that the Blessed Virgin did by special privilege of God, let him be anathema." Theologians assert that Mary was impeccable, not by the essential perfection of her nature, but by a special Divine privilege. Moreover, the Fathers, at least since the fifth century, almost unanimously maintain that the Blessed Virgin never experienced the motions of concupiscence.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Once again the point is made that impeccability with respect to the Theotokos is NOT absolute as it is with Jesus.

It is by grace that the Virgin does not sin.

It is by grace that you and I do not sin, when we manage not to sin.

This means that humans can only be sinless by grace and NOT by nature.  We are free to reject that grace.

So again we look at meaning while the rest of you avoid it like the plague  Wink
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« Reply #199 on: December 13, 2011, 10:50:39 PM »

Here are a couple more helpful quotations:



"Infallibility differs essentially from impeccability, which consists in the inability to sin; this signal privilege, which was awarded to the Mother of God, has never been attributed to the sovereign Pontiff."

Fr. William Devivier, S.J.
Christian Apologetics: A Defense of the Catholic Faith
(New York: Benziger Brothers, 1903)
Page 404



"This positive aspect of holiness, measured in terms of her possession of grace, stands in contradistinction to what is termed Mary's perfect sinlessness, the negative aspect of her sanctity. In the case of Our Lady, this perfect sinlessness implies more than merely the absence of sin; it implies also a complete indefectibility in the moral order, or the actual inability to sin.

Mary's sinlessness, therefore, is properly described as absolute, and this as the consequence of several factors. Her freedom from the assaults of concupiscence alone would not have been sufficient to ensure it, for the angels, free from the weaknesses of a fallen Adam were still able to revolt against God. Two other special factors constituted Mary perfectly impeccable. The first was her constant awareness of God, living always in His presence, and the second was her reception of special and extraordinary graces. These particular graces represented the most important factor, for they enabled Mary to maintain a perfect harmony in her mind, will, affections, and appetitive powers, and to recognize always, where error plagues lesser mortals, that true good and happiness are found only in union with God's will.

Such sinlessness in Our Lady, however, does not mean that Mary was intrinsically impeccable, but rather that the grace of her Immaculate Conception and her divine motherhood made sin utterly impossible in her life. She was free, as a consequence of her predestination, not only from all personal sin and from every voluntary imperfection but also from every involuntary moral fault and from even the first movements of concupiscence.

The fact and propriety of Mary's complete sinlessness, recognized in the Church long before other Marian mysteries were explored, can be established also through the theological axiom that the nearer one approaches to a principle of truth or life the more deeply one partakes of its effects. Hence, Mary's unique proximity to God and the possession of grace made her immune to any kind of personal sin. Her maternal relationship with her divine Son was more than a mere physiological relationship and even more than an office endowed with special graces. It was, in fact, a supernatural, sanctifying union, implying a highly intimate affinity and relationship with the Most Holy Trinity. It is evident, therefore, that Mary's relationship to the hypostatic order demanded that God, out of what was due Himself, bestow the grace of impeccability upon His Mother."

New Catholic Encyclopedia
Mary, Blessed Virgin, II - In Theology (Volume 9)
(New York: McGraw Hill Book Company, 1967)
Pages 347-348

Republished by Thomas/Gale, 2003



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« Reply #200 on: December 14, 2011, 03:51:27 AM »

Here are a couple more helpful quotations:



"Infallibility differs essentially from impeccability, which consists in the inability to sin; this signal privilege, which was awarded to the Mother of God, has never been attributed to the sovereign Pontiff."

Fr. William Devivier, S.J.
Christian Apologetics: A Defense of the Catholic Faith
(New York: Benziger Brothers, 1903)
Page 404



"This positive aspect of holiness, measured in terms of her possession of grace, stands in contradistinction to what is termed Mary's perfect sinlessness, the negative aspect of her sanctity. In the case of Our Lady, this perfect sinlessness implies more than merely the absence of sin; it implies also a complete indefectibility in the moral order, or the actual inability to sin.

Mary's sinlessness, therefore, is properly described as absolute, and this as the consequence of several factors. Her freedom from the assaults of concupiscence alone would not have been sufficient to ensure it, for the angels, free from the weaknesses of a fallen Adam were still able to revolt against God. Two other special factors constituted Mary perfectly impeccable. The first was her constant awareness of God, living always in His presence, and the second was her reception of special and extraordinary graces. These particular graces represented the most important factor, for they enabled Mary to maintain a perfect harmony in her mind, will, affections, and appetitive powers, and to recognize always, where error plagues lesser mortals, that true good and happiness are found only in union with God's will.

Such sinlessness in Our Lady, however, does not mean that Mary was intrinsically impeccable, but rather that the grace of her Immaculate Conception and her divine motherhood made sin utterly impossible in her life. She was free, as a consequence of her predestination, not only from all personal sin and from every voluntary imperfection but also from every involuntary moral fault and from even the first movements of concupiscence.

The fact and propriety of Mary's complete sinlessness, recognized in the Church long before other Marian mysteries were explored, can be established also through the theological axiom that the nearer one approaches to a principle of truth or life the more deeply one partakes of its effects. Hence, Mary's unique proximity to God and the possession of grace made her immune to any kind of personal sin. Her maternal relationship with her divine Son was more than a mere physiological relationship and even more than an office endowed with special graces. It was, in fact, a supernatural, sanctifying union, implying a highly intimate affinity and relationship with the Most Holy Trinity. It is evident, therefore, that Mary's relationship to the hypostatic order demanded that God, out of what was due Himself, bestow the grace of impeccability upon His Mother."

New Catholic Encyclopedia
Mary, Blessed Virgin, II - In Theology (Volume 9)
(New York: McGraw Hill Book Company, 1967)
Pages 347-348

Republished by Thomas/Gale, 2003






All good points, what I would like to know is why the New Catholic Encyclopaedia has always got to read like a legal document, instead of a more simplistic easy to understand format.

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« Reply #201 on: December 14, 2011, 11:29:49 AM »

Here are a couple more helpful quotations:



"Infallibility differs essentially from impeccability, which consists in the inability to sin; this signal privilege, which was awarded to the Mother of God, has never been attributed to the sovereign Pontiff."

Fr. William Devivier, S.J.
Christian Apologetics: A Defense of the Catholic Faith
(New York: Benziger Brothers, 1903)
Page 404



"This positive aspect of holiness, measured in terms of her possession of grace, stands in contradistinction to what is termed Mary's perfect sinlessness, the negative aspect of her sanctity. In the case of Our Lady, this perfect sinlessness implies more than merely the absence of sin; it implies also a complete indefectibility in the moral order, or the actual inability to sin.

Mary's sinlessness, therefore, is properly described as absolute, and this as the consequence of several factors. Her freedom from the assaults of concupiscence alone would not have been sufficient to ensure it, for the angels, free from the weaknesses of a fallen Adam were still able to revolt against God. Two other special factors constituted Mary perfectly impeccable. The first was her constant awareness of God, living always in His presence, and the second was her reception of special and extraordinary graces. These particular graces represented the most important factor, for they enabled Mary to maintain a perfect harmony in her mind, will, affections, and appetitive powers, and to recognize always, where error plagues lesser mortals, that true good and happiness are found only in union with God's will.

Such sinlessness in Our Lady, however, does not mean that Mary was intrinsically impeccable, but rather that the grace of her Immaculate Conception and her divine motherhood made sin utterly impossible in her life. She was free, as a consequence of her predestination, not only from all personal sin and from every voluntary imperfection but also from every involuntary moral fault and from even the first movements of concupiscence.

The fact and propriety of Mary's complete sinlessness, recognized in the Church long before other Marian mysteries were explored, can be established also through the theological axiom that the nearer one approaches to a principle of truth or life the more deeply one partakes of its effects. Hence, Mary's unique proximity to God and the possession of grace made her immune to any kind of personal sin. Her maternal relationship with her divine Son was more than a mere physiological relationship and even more than an office endowed with special graces. It was, in fact, a supernatural, sanctifying union, implying a highly intimate affinity and relationship with the Most Holy Trinity. It is evident, therefore, that Mary's relationship to the hypostatic order demanded that God, out of what was due Himself, bestow the grace of impeccability upon His Mother."

New Catholic Encyclopedia
Mary, Blessed Virgin, II - In Theology (Volume 9)
(New York: McGraw Hill Book Company, 1967)
Pages 347-348

Republished by Thomas/Gale, 2003






All good points, what I would like to know is why the New Catholic Encyclopaedia has always got to read like a legal document, instead of a more simplistic easy to understand format.

 Huh

Because its an Encyclopedia.
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« Reply #202 on: December 14, 2011, 11:35:15 AM »

Here are a couple more helpful quotations:



"Infallibility differs essentially from impeccability, which consists in the inability to sin; this signal privilege, which was awarded to the Mother of God, has never been attributed to the sovereign Pontiff."

Fr. William Devivier, S.J.
Christian Apologetics: A Defense of the Catholic Faith
(New York: Benziger Brothers, 1903)
Page 404



"This positive aspect of holiness, measured in terms of her possession of grace, stands in contradistinction to what is termed Mary's perfect sinlessness, the negative aspect of her sanctity. In the case of Our Lady, this perfect sinlessness implies more than merely the absence of sin; it implies also a complete indefectibility in the moral order, or the actual inability to sin.

Mary's sinlessness, therefore, is properly described as absolute, and this as the consequence of several factors. Her freedom from the assaults of concupiscence alone would not have been sufficient to ensure it, for the angels, free from the weaknesses of a fallen Adam were still able to revolt against God. Two other special factors constituted Mary perfectly impeccable. The first was her constant awareness of God, living always in His presence, and the second was her reception of special and extraordinary graces. These particular graces represented the most important factor, for they enabled Mary to maintain a perfect harmony in her mind, will, affections, and appetitive powers, and to recognize always, where error plagues lesser mortals, that true good and happiness are found only in union with God's will.

Such sinlessness in Our Lady, however, does not mean that Mary was intrinsically impeccable, but rather that the grace of her Immaculate Conception and her divine motherhood made sin utterly impossible in her life. She was free, as a consequence of her predestination, not only from all personal sin and from every voluntary imperfection but also from every involuntary moral fault and from even the first movements of concupiscence.

The fact and propriety of Mary's complete sinlessness, recognized in the Church long before other Marian mysteries were explored, can be established also through the theological axiom that the nearer one approaches to a principle of truth or life the more deeply one partakes of its effects. Hence, Mary's unique proximity to God and the possession of grace made her immune to any kind of personal sin. Her maternal relationship with her divine Son was more than a mere physiological relationship and even more than an office endowed with special graces. It was, in fact, a supernatural, sanctifying union, implying a highly intimate affinity and relationship with the Most Holy Trinity. It is evident, therefore, that Mary's relationship to the hypostatic order demanded that God, out of what was due Himself, bestow the grace of impeccability upon His Mother."

New Catholic Encyclopedia
Mary, Blessed Virgin, II - In Theology (Volume 9)
(New York: McGraw Hill Book Company, 1967)
Pages 347-348

Republished by Thomas/Gale, 2003


Are you all noting carefully that in all of these quotes and discussions that it is never suggested that the Theotokos never lived free from all temptation, or free from all emotional responses?  Have you noted that the Catholic Church venerates her sorrows as does Orthodoxy?  And that none of these quotes provided by Todd suggest that she did not sorrow?  All they say is that no matter how much she might have been tempted, she never yielded in any way to that temptation...and she never yielded by grace, and her cooperation with that grace.

I can feel the emotion of anger but if I do not yield to it, if I do not play with it internally, if I do not act on it, then I too have NOT sinned in anger.  The Catholic Church is very careful to make these distinctions when speaking of sin.  It would be the same here in these instances of speaking of the Theotokos and sin.

M.

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« Reply #203 on: December 14, 2011, 11:51:39 AM »

Here are a couple more helpful quotations:



"Infallibility differs essentially from impeccability, which consists in the inability to sin; this signal privilege, which was awarded to the Mother of God, has never been attributed to the sovereign Pontiff."

Fr. William Devivier, S.J.
Christian Apologetics: A Defense of the Catholic Faith
(New York: Benziger Brothers, 1903)
Page 404



"This positive aspect of holiness, measured in terms of her possession of grace, stands in contradistinction to what is termed Mary's perfect sinlessness, the negative aspect of her sanctity. In the case of Our Lady, this perfect sinlessness implies more than merely the absence of sin; it implies also a complete indefectibility in the moral order, or the actual inability to sin.

Mary's sinlessness, therefore, is properly described as absolute, and this as the consequence of several factors. Her freedom from the assaults of concupiscence alone would not have been sufficient to ensure it, for the angels, free from the weaknesses of a fallen Adam were still able to revolt against God. Two other special factors constituted Mary perfectly impeccable. The first was her constant awareness of God, living always in His presence, and the second was her reception of special and extraordinary graces. These particular graces represented the most important factor, for they enabled Mary to maintain a perfect harmony in her mind, will, affections, and appetitive powers, and to recognize always, where error plagues lesser mortals, that true good and happiness are found only in union with God's will.

Such sinlessness in Our Lady, however, does not mean that Mary was intrinsically impeccable, but rather that the grace of her Immaculate Conception and her divine motherhood made sin utterly impossible in her life. She was free, as a consequence of her predestination, not only from all personal sin and from every voluntary imperfection but also from every involuntary moral fault and from even the first movements of concupiscence.

The fact and propriety of Mary's complete sinlessness, recognized in the Church long before other Marian mysteries were explored, can be established also through the theological axiom that the nearer one approaches to a principle of truth or life the more deeply one partakes of its effects. Hence, Mary's unique proximity to God and the possession of grace made her immune to any kind of personal sin. Her maternal relationship with her divine Son was more than a mere physiological relationship and even more than an office endowed with special graces. It was, in fact, a supernatural, sanctifying union, implying a highly intimate affinity and relationship with the Most Holy Trinity. It is evident, therefore, that Mary's relationship to the hypostatic order demanded that God, out of what was due Himself, bestow the grace of impeccability upon His Mother."

New Catholic Encyclopedia
Mary, Blessed Virgin, II - In Theology (Volume 9)
(New York: McGraw Hill Book Company, 1967)
Pages 347-348

Republished by Thomas/Gale, 2003






All good points, what I would like to know is why the New Catholic Encyclopaedia has always got to read like a legal document, instead of a more simplistic easy to understand format.

 Huh

Well, didn't Georgetown put it out?
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« Reply #204 on: December 14, 2011, 12:47:48 PM »

Almost all of the Orthodox opinions have one thing in common - this isn't part of our eastern tradition of theological expression. There are Orthodox fathers (at least one that I know of for sure) that say that Mary was sanctified and filled with grace at least from her early childhood, but don't claim her as being unaffected by the fall or having a nature other than what she received from her parents. The miracle of her conception isn't taught as being (at least in part) free from original sin, but that her mother was barren and past childbearing years and is compared to Abraham and Sarah conceiving Isaac.

Some of the Greek and Eastern fathers (who belonged to an entity called the Catholic Church) did say that Mary was free from sin from conception,but they did not discuss this as an official doctrine of the whole Church or come to a consensus about it.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).


"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The absolute purity of Mary

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.

    The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
    Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
    Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
    Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
    Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
    In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
    Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
    it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
    she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
    she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
    when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
    The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
    To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
    Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis" was taken up by some Western authors; it was put forward by Petrus Comestor in his treatise against St. Bernard and by others. Some writers even taught that Mary was born of a virgin and that she was conceived in a miraculous manner when Joachim and Anne met at the golden gate of the temple (Trombelli, "Mari SS. Vita", Sect. V, ii, 8; Summa aurea, II, 948. Cf. also the "Revelations" of Catherine Emmerich which contain the entire apocryphal legend of the miraculous conception of Mary.

From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.





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« Reply #205 on: December 14, 2011, 01:55:57 PM »

Here's a few questions. Is the IC really necessary for her to be the Theotokos? Is it possible for her to be born with our fallen nature and still be cooperative with divine grace, (just like John the Baptist was in the womb) filled with the Holy Spirit, and still be obedient to God as she was?

Is it necessary for any of us to first be cleansed of the stain of original sin (to use the latin terminology as it applies to the IC) before we can respond positively to grace, say yes to God, and receive Christ and be united to Him (especially unbaptized adult converts to Christianity) just as Mary responded to God and received Christ by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit?

It is necessary for her to be immaculately conceived for her to be the Mother of God,because it is fitting and proper for God to be conceived as man in purity,and not in impurity. A human person remains essentially what he or she is at conception until death. Being cleansed and filled by the Holy Spirit does not remove all the damage caused by original sin,because the weakness for evil is an intrinsic defect of the person at conception. Jesus inherited from Mary her own intrinsic purity of soul and body.

A person who is conceived with a fallen nature can co-operate with divine grace,but it is not likely that a girl with a fallen nature,who did not know and love Jesus,would have strong enough faith to trust the angel Gabriel's words and be willing to bear the Son of God out of wedlock.



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« Reply #206 on: December 14, 2011, 01:58:35 PM »

Here's a few questions. Is the IC really necessary for her to be the Theotokos? Is it possible for her to be born with our fallen nature and still be cooperative with divine grace, (just like John the Baptist was in the womb) filled with the Holy Spirit, and still be obedient to God as she was?

Is it necessary for any of us to first be cleansed of the stain of original sin (to use the latin terminology as it applies to the IC) before we can respond positively to grace, say yes to God, and receive Christ and be united to Him (especially unbaptized adult converts to Christianity) just as Mary responded to God and received Christ by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit?

It is necessary for her to be immaculately conceived for her to be the Mother of God,because it is fitting and proper for God to be conceived as man in purity,and not in impurity. A human person remains essentially what he or she is at conception until death. Being cleansed and filled by the Holy Spirit does not remove all the damage caused by original sin,because the weakness for evil is an intrinsic defect of the person at conception. Jesus inherited from Mary her own intrinsic purity of soul and body.

A person who is conceived with a fallen nature can co-operate with divine grace,but it is not likely that a girl with a fallen nature,who did not know and love Jesus,would have strong enough faith to trust the angel Gabriel's words and be willing to bear the Son of God out of wedlock.




So if the Virgin Mary was Immacuately Conceived, then her being holy is no big deal then. Afterall, it means that she got it easy since God protected her from sin then. Right?

So why were Her parents no protected from original Sin too? Afterall if the Virgin was to be sinless, and using the same criteria for Mary would it not be used for her parents as well? What about theirs? How far back does it go? If not, why not?

PP


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« Reply #207 on: December 14, 2011, 02:01:49 PM »

Here's a few questions. Is the IC really necessary for her to be the Theotokos? Is it possible for her to be born with our fallen nature and still be cooperative with divine grace, (just like John the Baptist was in the womb) filled with the Holy Spirit, and still be obedient to God as she was?

Is it necessary for any of us to first be cleansed of the stain of original sin (to use the latin terminology as it applies to the IC) before we can respond positively to grace, say yes to God, and receive Christ and be united to Him (especially unbaptized adult converts to Christianity) just as Mary responded to God and received Christ by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit?

It is necessary for her to be immaculately conceived for her to be the Mother of God,because it is fitting and proper for God to be conceived as man in purity,and not in impurity.

He made Him Who knew no sin to become sin for us.  II Corinthians 5:21.  So much for your "need," which in fact contradicts scripture on this very point.  If she is immaculately conceived, then Christ did not assume fallen humanity to raise it up.

A human person remains essentially what he or she is at conception until death.
So baptism is useless, and you are still lost in your sins.

Being cleansed and filled by the Holy Spirit does not remove all the damage caused by original sin,because the weakness for evil is an intrinsic defect of the person at conception. Jesus inherited from Mary her own intrinsic purity of soul and body
Then He did not assume fallen man, and we are still unsaved.

A person who is conceived with a fallen nature can co-operate with divine grace,but it is not likely that a girl with a fallen nature,who did not know and love Jesus,would have strong enough faith to trust the angel Gabriel's words and be willing to bear the Son of God out of wedlock.
well, one did.
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« Reply #208 on: December 14, 2011, 02:11:11 PM »

Almost all of the Orthodox opinions have one thing in common - this isn't part of our eastern tradition of theological expression. There are Orthodox fathers (at least one that I know of for sure) that say that Mary was sanctified and filled with grace at least from her early childhood, but don't claim her as being unaffected by the fall or having a nature other than what she received from her parents. The miracle of her conception isn't taught as being (at least in part) free from original sin, but that her mother was barren and past childbearing years and is compared to Abraham and Sarah conceiving Isaac.

Some of the Greek and Eastern fathers (who belonged to an entity called the Catholic Church) did say that Mary was free from sin from conception,but they did not discuss this as an official doctrine of the whole Church or come to a consensus about it.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).


"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The absolute purity of Mary

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.

    The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
    Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
    Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
    Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
    Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
    In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
    Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
    it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
    she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
    she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
    when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
    The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
    To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
    Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis" was taken up by some Western authors; it was put forward by Petrus Comestor in his treatise against St. Bernard and by others. Some writers even taught that Mary was born of a virgin and that she was conceived in a miraculous manner when Joachim and Anne met at the golden gate of the temple (Trombelli, "Mari SS. Vita", Sect. V, ii, 8; Summa aurea, II, 948. Cf. also the "Revelations" of Catherine Emmerich which contain the entire apocryphal legend of the miraculous conception of Mary.

From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.






Good stuff
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« Reply #209 on: December 14, 2011, 02:13:38 PM »

Almost all of the Orthodox opinions have one thing in common - this isn't part of our eastern tradition of theological expression. There are Orthodox fathers (at least one that I know of for sure) that say that Mary was sanctified and filled with grace at least from her early childhood, but don't claim her as being unaffected by the fall or having a nature other than what she received from her parents. The miracle of her conception isn't taught as being (at least in part) free from original sin, but that her mother was barren and past childbearing years and is compared to Abraham and Sarah conceiving Isaac.

Some of the Greek and Eastern fathers (who belonged to an entity called the Catholic Church) did say that Mary was free from sin from conception,but they did not discuss this as an official doctrine of the whole Church or come to a consensus about it.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).


"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The absolute purity of Mary

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.

    The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
    Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
    Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
    Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
    Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
    In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
    Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
    it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
    she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
    she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
    when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
    The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
    To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
    Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis" was taken up by some Western authors; it was put forward by Petrus Comestor in his treatise against St. Bernard and by others. Some writers even taught that Mary was born of a virgin and that she was conceived in a miraculous manner when Joachim and Anne met at the golden gate of the temple (Trombelli, "Mari SS. Vita", Sect. V, ii, 8; Summa aurea, II, 948. Cf. also the "Revelations" of Catherine Emmerich which contain the entire apocryphal legend of the miraculous conception of Mary.

From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.






Good stuff
So as I said. I guess since Mary being incapable of sin and being protected from "Original Sin" means then she's no big deal. She got a cheat code from God.

PP
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« Reply #210 on: December 14, 2011, 02:22:12 PM »

Almost all of the Orthodox opinions have one thing in common - this isn't part of our eastern tradition of theological expression. There are Orthodox fathers (at least one that I know of for sure) that say that Mary was sanctified and filled with grace at least from her early childhood, but don't claim her as being unaffected by the fall or having a nature other than what she received from her parents. The miracle of her conception isn't taught as being (at least in part) free from original sin, but that her mother was barren and past childbearing years and is compared to Abraham and Sarah conceiving Isaac.

Some of the Greek and Eastern fathers (who belonged to an entity called the Catholic Church) did say that Mary was free from sin from conception,but they did not discuss this as an official doctrine of the whole Church or come to a consensus about it.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).


"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The absolute purity of Mary

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.

    The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
    Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
    Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
    Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
    Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
    In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
    Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
    it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
    she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
    she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
    when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
    The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
    To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
    Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis" was taken up by some Western authors; it was put forward by Petrus Comestor in his treatise against St. Bernard and by others. Some writers even taught that Mary was born of a virgin and that she was conceived in a miraculous manner when Joachim and Anne met at the golden gate of the temple (Trombelli, "Mari SS. Vita", Sect. V, ii, 8; Summa aurea, II, 948. Cf. also the "Revelations" of Catherine Emmerich which contain the entire apocryphal legend of the miraculous conception of Mary.

From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.






Good stuff
So as I said. I guess since Mary being incapable of sin and being protected from "Original Sin" means then she's no big deal. She got a cheat code from God.

PP
Take it up with the Fathers.
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« Reply #211 on: December 14, 2011, 02:26:19 PM »

A person who is conceived with a fallen nature can co-operate with divine grace,but it is not likely that a girl with a fallen nature,who did not know and love Jesus,would have strong enough faith to trust the angel Gabriel's words and be willing to bear the Son of God out of wedlock.
well, one did.
[/quote]

Well put Ialmisry!
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« Reply #212 on: December 14, 2011, 02:30:40 PM »

Almost all of the Orthodox opinions have one thing in common - this isn't part of our eastern tradition of theological expression. There are Orthodox fathers (at least one that I know of for sure) that say that Mary was sanctified and filled with grace at least from her early childhood, but don't claim her as being unaffected by the fall or having a nature other than what she received from her parents. The miracle of her conception isn't taught as being (at least in part) free from original sin, but that her mother was barren and past childbearing years and is compared to Abraham and Sarah conceiving Isaac.

Some of the Greek and Eastern fathers (who belonged to an entity called the Catholic Church) did say that Mary was free from sin from conception,but they did not discuss this as an official doctrine of the whole Church or come to a consensus about it.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).


"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The absolute purity of Mary

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.

    The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
    Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
    Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
    Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
    Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
    In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
    Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
    it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
    she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
    she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
    when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
    The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
    To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
    Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis" was taken up by some Western authors; it was put forward by Petrus Comestor in his treatise against St. Bernard and by others. Some writers even taught that Mary was born of a virgin and that she was conceived in a miraculous manner when Joachim and Anne met at the golden gate of the temple (Trombelli, "Mari SS. Vita", Sect. V, ii, 8; Summa aurea, II, 948. Cf. also the "Revelations" of Catherine Emmerich which contain the entire apocryphal legend of the miraculous conception of Mary.

From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.






Good stuff
So as I said. I guess since Mary being incapable of sin and being protected from "Original Sin" means then she's no big deal. She got a cheat code from God.

PP
Take it up with the Fathers.
Im asking you. Why would we venerate Mary if her being holy was no big deal? According to this theory, it was impossible for her to sin because she was protected from it. That would make Jesus irrelevant since God could simply cancel out Original Sin in everyone with no side effects or anything.

PP
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« Reply #213 on: December 14, 2011, 02:32:40 PM »

Almost all of the Orthodox opinions have one thing in common - this isn't part of our eastern tradition of theological expression. There are Orthodox fathers (at least one that I know of for sure) that say that Mary was sanctified and filled with grace at least from her early childhood, but don't claim her as being unaffected by the fall or having a nature other than what she received from her parents. The miracle of her conception isn't taught as being (at least in part) free from original sin, but that her mother was barren and past childbearing years and is compared to Abraham and Sarah conceiving Isaac.

Some of the Greek and Eastern fathers (who belonged to an entity called the Catholic Church) did say that Mary was free from sin from conception,but they did not discuss this as an official doctrine of the whole Church or come to a consensus about it.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).


"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The absolute purity of Mary

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.

    The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
    Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
    Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
    Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
    Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
    In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
    Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
    it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
    she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
    she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
    when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
    The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
    To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
    Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis" was taken up by some Western authors; it was put forward by Petrus Comestor in his treatise against St. Bernard and by others. Some writers even taught that Mary was born of a virgin and that she was conceived in a miraculous manner when Joachim and Anne met at the golden gate of the temple (Trombelli, "Mari SS. Vita", Sect. V, ii, 8; Summa aurea, II, 948. Cf. also the "Revelations" of Catherine Emmerich which contain the entire apocryphal legend of the miraculous conception of Mary.

From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.






Good stuff
So as I said. I guess since Mary being incapable of sin and being protected from "Original Sin" means then she's no big deal. She got a cheat code from God.

PP
Take it up with the Fathers.
Im asking you. Why would we venerate Mary if her being holy was no big deal? According to this theory, it was impossible for her to sin because she was protected from it. That would make Jesus irrelevant since God could simply cancel out Original Sin in everyone with no side effects or anything.

PP
2 points:
1. There is no official dogma that teaches Mary was incapable of sin. There theologians that think this was the case, but I tend to disagree with them.
2. Even if she was incapable of sin, the grace to avoid such sins would only be capable because of the merits of Jesus' passion. It is an official Catholic teaching that Mary was redeemed by the blood of Christ.
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« Reply #214 on: December 14, 2011, 02:38:00 PM »

My understanding of the RC position is that God created Mary perfect, at least to all intent and purposes that is how it plays out.  We are all created beings, but in Mary's case the RC position make her even more of a "created" being, a perfect human created to serve as a womb for the incarnation.  As St. John Maximovitch said (in essence, not a direct quote), if God made her sinless from conception, what do we praise her for?

We honor the Theotokos not just for what she was, but, as with all Saints, for what she accomplished through her own efforts (with God's grace of course).  None of the Saints were born Saints.
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« Reply #215 on: December 14, 2011, 02:39:40 PM »

Almost all of the Orthodox opinions have one thing in common - this isn't part of our eastern tradition of theological expression. There are Orthodox fathers (at least one that I know of for sure) that say that Mary was sanctified and filled with grace at least from her early childhood, but don't claim her as being unaffected by the fall or having a nature other than what she received from her parents. The miracle of her conception isn't taught as being (at least in part) free from original sin, but that her mother was barren and past childbearing years and is compared to Abraham and Sarah conceiving Isaac.

Some of the Greek and Eastern fathers (who belonged to an entity called the Catholic Church) did say that Mary was free from sin from conception,but they did not discuss this as an official doctrine of the whole Church or come to a consensus about it.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).


"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The absolute purity of Mary

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.

    The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
    Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
    Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
    Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
    Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
    In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
    Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
    it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
    she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
    she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
    when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
    The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
    To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
    Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis" was taken up by some Western authors; it was put forward by Petrus Comestor in his treatise against St. Bernard and by others. Some writers even taught that Mary was born of a virgin and that she was conceived in a miraculous manner when Joachim and Anne met at the golden gate of the temple (Trombelli, "Mari SS. Vita", Sect. V, ii, 8; Summa aurea, II, 948. Cf. also the "Revelations" of Catherine Emmerich which contain the entire apocryphal legend of the miraculous conception of Mary.

From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.






Good stuff
So as I said. I guess since Mary being incapable of sin and being protected from "Original Sin" means then she's no big deal. She got a cheat code from God.

PP
Take it up with the Fathers.
Im asking you. Why would we venerate Mary if her being holy was no big deal? According to this theory, it was impossible for her to sin because she was protected from it. That would make Jesus irrelevant since God could simply cancel out Original Sin in everyone with no side effects or anything.

PP
2 points:
1. There is no official dogma that teaches Mary was incapable of sin. There theologians that think this was the case, but I tend to disagree with them.
2. Even if she was incapable of sin, the grace to avoid such sins would only be capable because of the merits of Jesus' passion. It is an official Catholic teaching that Mary was redeemed by the blood of Christ.

Dear Papist,

The Lord's Passion had not yet occurred.  The idea of applying it in advance opens up a whole can of worms theologically.
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« Reply #216 on: December 14, 2011, 02:42:45 PM »

Quote
1. There is no official dogma that teaches Mary was incapable of sin. There theologians that think this was the case, but I tend to disagree with them.
Fair enough

Quote
2. Even if she was incapable of sin, the grace to avoid such sins would only be capable because of the merits of Jesus' passion. It is an official Catholic teaching that Mary was redeemed by the blood of Christ.
So the passion was played forward? Really?
Ok so if Mary had to be protected for jesus' sake, why were her parents not protected for hers? and their parents? and their parents? and so on....

PP
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« Reply #217 on: December 14, 2011, 02:48:06 PM »

Almost all of the Orthodox opinions have one thing in common - this isn't part of our eastern tradition of theological expression. There are Orthodox fathers (at least one that I know of for sure) that say that Mary was sanctified and filled with grace at least from her early childhood, but don't claim her as being unaffected by the fall or having a nature other than what she received from her parents. The miracle of her conception isn't taught as being (at least in part) free from original sin, but that her mother was barren and past childbearing years and is compared to Abraham and Sarah conceiving Isaac.

Some of the Greek and Eastern fathers (who belonged to an entity called the Catholic Church) did say that Mary was free from sin from conception,but they did not discuss this as an official doctrine of the whole Church or come to a consensus about it.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).


"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The absolute purity of Mary

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.

    The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
    Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
    Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
    Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
    Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
    In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
    Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
    it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
    she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
    she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
    when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
    The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
    To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
    Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis" was taken up by some Western authors; it was put forward by Petrus Comestor in his treatise against St. Bernard and by others. Some writers even taught that Mary was born of a virgin and that she was conceived in a miraculous manner when Joachim and Anne met at the golden gate of the temple (Trombelli, "Mari SS. Vita", Sect. V, ii, 8; Summa aurea, II, 948. Cf. also the "Revelations" of Catherine Emmerich which contain the entire apocryphal legend of the miraculous conception of Mary.

From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.






Good stuff
So as I said. I guess since Mary being incapable of sin and being protected from "Original Sin" means then she's no big deal. She got a cheat code from God.

PP
Take it up with the Fathers.
Im asking you. Why would we venerate Mary if her being holy was no big deal? According to this theory, it was impossible for her to sin because she was protected from it. That would make Jesus irrelevant since God could simply cancel out Original Sin in everyone with no side effects or anything.

PP
2 points:
1. There is no official dogma that teaches Mary was incapable of sin. There theologians that think this was the case, but I tend to disagree with them.
2. Even if she was incapable of sin, the grace to avoid such sins would only be capable because of the merits of Jesus' passion. It is an official Catholic teaching that Mary was redeemed by the blood of Christ.

Dear Papist,

The Lord's Passion had not yet occurred.  The idea of applying it in advance opens up a whole can of worms theologically.
Dr. Peter,
It doesn't open any theological can of worms. God is outside of time, so he didn't have to wait for Christ to die on the cross. It was present to him from all eternity. Why does the book of Revelation say that Chris is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world?"
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« Reply #218 on: December 14, 2011, 02:54:14 PM »

I would have to look more closely at that verse, but the "outside of time" concept as it is being applied here means that Adam and Eve could have been saved by the merits of the passion at the time of the Fall.  The scriptures present things in a linear way, from the Creation, the covenant with Israel, the Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of the Lord, to the founding of the Church.  Then of course, the end of the world and the Final Judgment.
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« Reply #219 on: December 14, 2011, 03:06:57 PM »

Dear Papist,

I am still hoping to find an Orthodox site that addresses the issue of whether Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, but I did locate this Protestant site that mentions alternate translations of the verse in question:

http://www.talk-grace.com/showthread.php?1930-Was-Christ-slain-before-the-foundation-of-the-world

One problem I have with the verse is that how could God the Son die or shed blood prior to the incarnation?  He did not yet have a human body.  I will keep looking for an Orthodox commentary on this particular verse.
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« Reply #220 on: December 14, 2011, 03:16:45 PM »

The verse in question, Revelations 13:8, is translated this way in my EOB (Eastern/ Greek Orthodox Bible):

"All who dwell on the earth will express adoration to him, everyone whose name has not, from the foundation of the world, been written in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."

The Orthodox Study Bible of course uses the NKJV which matches what you have.  I like the EOB translation, and use it in preference to the OSB.

Obviously, God knew from the foundation of the world the plan of salvation.
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« Reply #221 on: December 14, 2011, 03:23:41 PM »

Dear Papist,

One more comment.  The idea of applying merits is a very legalistic way of looking at things.  It implies there is a "thing" that can be transferred.  Christ's actions are not "things" that can be issued like a check. 

Salvation is a result of an individual choosing to accept the Gospel and participating in the life of Christ through the sacraments and engaging in the process of theosis (sanctification).  Its not about applying merits to obtain a pardon, or paying reparations to God.  The individual is responsible to pick up the Cross and follow.  Its not about sending in payment for a debt.

Peter
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #222 on: December 14, 2011, 03:34:25 PM »



From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.


Part of the history of the back and forth on the Immaculate Conception is that from earliest times, the timing of the 'moment of conception' and the inception of individual personhood was not fully agreed upon by all and some had fairly missed the mark on what that moment is, in any event.

It was with the apostolic constitution on the teaching of the Immaculate Conception that the Church finally and dogmatically linked the inception of personhood with the moment of conception.

You will still get an argument about this business of personhood and conception...and here from none other than our orthonorm, which breaks my heart, but there it is.

M.
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« Reply #223 on: December 14, 2011, 03:34:25 PM »

Here's a few questions. Is the IC really necessary for her to be the Theotokos? Is it possible for her to be born with our fallen nature and still be cooperative with divine grace, (just like John the Baptist was in the womb) filled with the Holy Spirit, and still be obedient to God as she was?

Is it necessary for any of us to first be cleansed of the stain of original sin (to use the latin terminology as it applies to the IC) before we can respond positively to grace, say yes to God, and receive Christ and be united to Him (especially unbaptized adult converts to Christianity) just as Mary responded to God and received Christ by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit?

It is necessary for her to be immaculately conceived for her to be the Mother of God,because it is fitting and proper for God to be conceived as man in purity,and not in impurity. A human person remains essentially what he or she is at conception until death. Being cleansed and filled by the Holy Spirit does not remove all the damage caused by original sin,because the weakness for evil is an intrinsic defect of the person at conception. Jesus inherited from Mary her own intrinsic purity of soul and body.

A person who is conceived with a fallen nature can co-operate with divine grace,but it is not likely that a girl with a fallen nature,who did not know and love Jesus,would have strong enough faith to trust the angel Gabriel's words and be willing to bear the Son of God out of wedlock.




So if the Virgin Mary was Immacuately Conceived, then her being holy is no big deal then. Afterall, it means that she got it easy since God protected her from sin then. Right?


Who do you think protects you and me from sin, when we do not sin?

God and his grace are the bulwark.  When I go to confession, my Church teaches me that the greatest benefit that I derive from that confession are the sacramental graces that help me to not sin again.

I have the choice to cooperate with those graces or not.

The same holds true for the immaculate Mother of God.
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« Reply #224 on: December 14, 2011, 03:34:43 PM »

Dear Papist,

I am still hoping to find an Orthodox site that addresses the issue of whether Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, but I did locate this Protestant site that mentions alternate translations of the verse in question:

http://www.talk-grace.com/showthread.php?1930-Was-Christ-slain-before-the-foundation-of-the-world

One problem I have with the verse is that how could God the Son die or shed blood prior to the incarnation?  He did not yet have a human body.  I will keep looking for an Orthodox commentary on this particular verse.
I'm not saying that Christ died before the foundation of the world. What I am saying is that all time is present to God at very moment, so even the passion and resurrection of Christ were always present to God.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." -Revelation 13:8
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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