Topic: That they all may be one!

[optxogokcoc]

...+¦+++¦ -Ç+¦++-ä+¦-é +¦++ -ë-â+¦++ +¦+¦++-ë-é -â-Ã  -Ç+¦-ä+¦-ü +¦++ +¦+++++¦ +¦+¦+¦-ë +¦++ -â+++¦ +¦+++¦ +¦+¦+¦ +¦-Ã -ä+++¦ +¦++ +++++¦++ +¦++ -ë-â+¦++ +¦+++¦ ++ +¦++-â++++-é -Ç+¦-â-ä+¦-Ã -â++ ++-ä+¦ -â-Ã  +++¦ +¦-Ç+¦-â-ä+¦+¦+++¦-é...

In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, our Most Holy Trinity and through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all the Saints in the Church Triumphant, I pray for the future of the Church Militant.

As our Lord Jesus Christos, the Saviour and the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, fully God and fully Man has prayed to You in the holy Gospel of John the Beloved and the Theologian:"I... pray... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Be merciful to us sinners, O Glory of the universe.
Be kind to us sinners, O Light of all creation.
Be on salvation to us sinners, O Love of all past, the present and future.

O God of old and young, male and female, alive and dead help us to overcome the differences and become united for Your glory.

O, God let us see the pain we caused to You in our stupidity. And let us become sad and weep in sorrow for helping the evil one in his unholy deeds.

Forgive our sins and wash us with you allpresent mercy and your forgiveness.

I beg this of You, Father, the Creator, in the name of the Son, the Light from Light through the Holy Spirit the giver of life.

Glory to You Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and all through the all ages of eternity. Amin.


I beg of all the brothers and sisters to join me in this prayer of the most sinful man in the universe, so that it may reach the bottom stairs of the Mostholy Divine throne and be heard and fullfiled so that we, Catholic Christians of the East and West may be reunited and glorify the Most Holy Trinity as it is meant to be done.

[Jakub]

I join you in prayer.

james

[Jack]

I'm with you.  I just prayed the prayer.  And it is my ongoing prayer that this be realized.

[sdcheung]

<-- No tpraying for this.
Until Pope is Orthodox. and the patriarchate of the West is Orthodox

[Mor Ephrem]

<-- No tpraying for this.
Until Pope is Orthodox. and the patriarchate of the West is Orthodox  

How is that gonna happen without prayer?  And if you wait until it does happen, then what is the point of prayer?

[sdcheung]

Oh ..sharp pointy things, and a Imported Bishop from the East.

[CatholicEagle]

Oh ..sharp pointy things, and a Imported Bishop from the East.

Maybe its not until the "Orthodox" bishops become Catholic?

[Orthodoc]

[Maybe its not until the "Orthodox" bishops become Catholic?]

But Orthodox bishops are Catholic!  They never left the Catholic Church.  They are still part of the 'One Holy CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church'  they profess belief in when we recite the Creed in it's original forum.

Orthodoc

[ChuckNoland]

I know its not worth much at all, but I prayed as well.

[shanmo9]

I will join you in this prayer. I was a cradle RC, and left it a long time ago for a journey in Protestantism-- I thank God Almighty for His mercy and bringing me home to His Holy Orthodox Church.

Ironically, He used the Catholic Network to help me find the Orthodox Church! For those who are waiting for the pope to become Orthodox, I would remind you that if He could save this wicked sinner--He can do anything--let's just pray daily and let Him take care of the details.

John

[jdudan54]

 

      It would appear that unity will evade the ecumaniac because even if the pope were to officially become orthodox, juridically speaking, he would still lack, as so many western orthodox do, the orthodox mind set; a mind set not formed on philosophical systems and legal terms or conceptual templates. Such a papacy would renounce the papacy as an inordinate creation of human systems over belief in god; he would recognize and admit to the incredible damage done by augustine and his influence, especially his attempt to bridge the gap between creation and the uncreated god with reason and rationalism - a mistake that was 'pregnant' with the offspring we know as protestantism. Apologist Alexander Kalomiros explains it better: " Catholicism, Protestantism, and Atheism are on the same level. They are offsprings of the same mentality. All three are philosophical systems, offsprings of rationalism, that is, of the notion that human reason is the foundation of certainty, the measure of truth, and the way of knowledge. The Orthodox have a different mentality. they regard philosophy as a dead end which never led man to certainty, truth, and knowledge......the only way to knowledge is purity of heart. It alone permits the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in man. In this way alone is god and his whole creation known, without being conceptualized." .............now, i admit to my bias here, but for the orthodox to 'adopt' a western mind set as if there were no difference is highly improbable.......but i'll pray too
                                                                         joseph

[JoeS]

     joseph  

Are you stating that the Pope pre-schism had an Orthdodox eastern mindset as opposed to an Orthodox western mindset?

JoeS

[JoeS]

Our Faith is Orthodox, our Church is Catholic.

JoeS

"Maybe its not until the "Orthodox" bishops become Catholic?"

[jdudan54]

 
    Yes Joe,
        I'm saying that pre-schism popes were still orthodox. Fr. Azkoul notes, " Diversity of cultures did not translate into diversity of creeds, precisely because the cultures were transformed by the religion they welcomed - the reverse of what is occuring today." He reminds us that during the 7th and 8th centuries, most popes were Greek; as late as 843, the west continued with icon painting... but this unity erodes through Augustine's introduction of rationalism as a 'wedge' between the incomprehensible god and the created nature, created order. The subsequent developments evolve into a culture of rationalism, where culture eventually triumphs over religion. As you know, if one is a 'traditional' catholic, or 'traditional' orthodox today, the modern -rationale is to consider them 'fanatic.' In my opinion, the current notion that 'they may all be one' is a cry for unity on false premise. the premise that dividing differences are minimal and can be swallowed up into a giant merger of ecclesiastical structures ignores how these mind sets are to be digested. Once swallowed, i suspect the digestive tract of the church to be constipated for some time; but then, maybe that will be a good thing....maybe really clever theologians will have to inspect and question just what it was they consumed; that way, they can find out what really is spiritually nutritious.........................
                                                                             peace, joe

[shanmo9]

"In my opinion, the current notion that 'they may all be one' is a cry for unity on false premise. the premise that dividing differences are minimal and can be swallowed up into a giant merger of ecclesiastical structures ignores how these mind sets are to be digested"

I agree we must never surrender our core beliefs. We need to stand firm, but also we need to pray for unity. Again, let God sort  out.  As the prayer of St. Ehriam says, " Help me to see my own transgressions and not judge my brother" Don't know about you, but that helps me to keep things in perspective.

Blessings,
John

[jdudan54]

   
       JOHN,
           good post, good advice; i'm with you on that.
                                                       peace, joseph

[Jack]

"That they may all be one" is not a cry for unity on a false premise, but the prayer of Christ himself.  To be opposed to unity is to be opposed to Christ.  Differences between western and eastern modes of thinking don't matter, because if they did it would be even more difficult to convert the far east.  Christ is bigger than any culture.  We can either obey Christ and unite or make excuses.  Those are the choices.

[jdudan54]

  Jack,
     While i agree in 'spirit' with Christ's prayer for unity, differences in thought do matter and are often primary obstacles; however, that doesn't imply one is automatically oppossed to unity. Think or imagine, the western church dropping any pretense to submission to a 'papacy.' The very idea is anathama to R.C.'s as they view unity hinged on this principle. When in fact, unity is hinged on a eucharistic unity, not modeled or subordinate to a particular hierarch....this 'thought' is so rooted in the west that the false premise of christians in the east 'needing conversion' - the far east that birthed christianity- drives a deeper wedge between orthodox and catholics. Christs call for unity was certainly not a call for submission to an ecclesiastical office designed and elevated with political overtones...to be formally erected in subsequent centuries after his death..            peace, joe

[Jack]

 Jack,
     While i agree in 'spirit' with Christ's prayer for unity, differences in thought do matter and are often primary obstacles; however, that doesn't imply one is automatically oppossed to unity. Think or imagine, the western church dropping any pretense to submission to a 'papacy.' The very idea is anathama to R.C.'s as they view unity hinged on this principle. When in fact, unity is hinged on a eucharistic unity, not modeled or subordinate to a particular hierarch....this 'thought' is so rooted in the west that the false premise of christians in the east 'needing conversion' - the far east that birthed christianity- drives a deeper wedge between orthodox and catholics. Christs call for unity was certainly not a call for submission to an ecclesiastical office designed and elevated with political overtones...to be formally erected in subsequent centuries after his death..            peace, joe

Joe, with all due respect, you're arguing with a straw man.  I am not saying that the Orthodox are in need of any more conversion than the Catholics are (we look on it as a continuing process).  I disagree with you on the history, but my point his that we're never going to get to unity by argumentation.  The only way it's going to happen is through the operation of the Holy Spirit.  Now the Holy Spirit speaks to both sides, Orthodox and Catholic.  The Holy Spirit wouldn't stop speaking to us if we united; we both have bishops in apostolic succession.  The only way to stop sinning is to stop.  The only way to unite is to unite.

[jdudan54]

 
     Jack,
        I'm hereby uniting to unite. I wasn't setting you up or the papacy as a straw man. These tangible things erected by man in time ( whether orthodox or catholic is irrelevant) are tangible problems that don't vanish via calls for unity. This has been a theological divorce with both parties fixated on the others unrepentance; as a former r.c. myself, i can't see what platform unity will rest on. ( then, i'm not god of course, what do i know)...................................................joe

[Anastasios]

How can we have unity with the heretics? The Fathers spoke of fleeing from heretics, not having communion with them.  I love the Catholic Church and learned a lot from her, but until the doctrines of filioque papal infallibility are dropped, there can be no union.  The Orthodox Church already has "unity" as Christ's High Priestly Prayer was addressed to the Father regarding the people already IN the Church.  Unity is all Orthodox laying aside jurisdictional junk and being together in the Orthodox Church in a brotherly manner.

To reduce the serious dogmatic differences to "eastern vs. western modes of thinking" makes everyone in the past look stupid: "oh they just didn't understand each other." Sure they did--they read each other's writings, they met together, etc.  Reconicliliation is on the lines of the aftermath of Ephesus. The Antiochians submitted to St Cyril because they were in error.

To say that we are all in error would be ecumenism and syncretism; to say we are all right but in different ways splits the Church.

Jack and others: I used to believe just like you and I bear no animosity towards you or your positions. But you can't live on the fence.  It's either Orthodoxy or Rome. I still appreciate Rome but can't say that it is one with Orthodoxy.

Anastasios

[Deacon Lance]

Anastasios,

"To reduce the serious dogmatic differences to "eastern vs. western modes of thinking" makes everyone in the past look stupid: "oh they just didn't understand each other."

Then how do you jusitfy your stance via the Oriental Orthodox.  This is exactly what you and some propose unification with them.  My Church allows me this position but your does not, if you are being consistent.  If, however, you stand by your beliefs concerning the Oriental Orthodox then extend the same consideration to fellow Chalcedonians.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

[sdcheung]

I have a baad feeling about Non-Chalcedonians too.
We shouldn't be reuniting with them either.

[Anastasios]

Anastasios,

"To reduce the serious dogmatic differences to "eastern vs. western modes of thinking" makes everyone in the past look stupid: "oh they just didn't understand each other."

Then how do you jusitfy your stance via the Oriental Orthodox.  This is exactly what you and some propose unification with them.  My Church allows me this position but your does not, if you are being consistent.  If, however, you stand by your beliefs concerning the Oriental Orthodox then extend the same consideration to fellow Chalcedonians.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

I have always considered acceptance of the last four ecumenical councils on the part of the Non-Chalcedonians a necessary step for reunification between us.  Since they are unlikely to do so, I do not see union with them as possible at this time, however much I personally would like to see it.

Anastasios

[Anastasios]

I have a baad feeling about Non-Chalcedonians too.
We shouldn't be reuniting with them either.

Why? They are very close to Orthodoxy and their piety is tremendous.  If we could agree dogmatically they would be an asset to the Eastern Orthodox.

Anastasios

[Orthodoc]

[Why? They are very close to Orthodoxy and their piety is tremendous.  If we could agree dogmatically they would be an asset to the Eastern Orthodox.]

I second that!

Orthodoc

[Αριστοκλής]

[Why? They are very close to Orthodoxy and their piety is tremendous.  If we could agree dogmatically they would be an asset to the Eastern Orthodox.]

I second that!

Orthodoc

As do I.

Demetri

[optxogokcoc]

As do I.

[sdcheung]

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

[Αριστοκλής]

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

Maybe in another 500 years...

[Anastasios]

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

En masse, it would be nice. But I don't want their wonderful traditions and liturgies to die out, which would happen if we siphoned them off in small groups.

Anastasios

[jdudan54]

   
       When talking of unity, one wonders, why the west doesn't unite first with fellow western christians rather than pursue a suspect re-unification with eastern orthodoxy; after all, protestanism is a logical fallout of r. catholicism. But R. catholics will look on the lutherans, anglicans, baptists, etc as 'heretics.' Seeing itself as the source of christianity, Rome considers Orthodox as schismatic ( correct me if i'm wrong, but this was pre-vatican 11 theology). It is Rome's departure from Orthodoxy that has promoted the morphing of Christianity into various defections.......so again, where does the suppossed 1st step toward unity begin???...............................joe

[CatholicEagle]

 
       When talking of unity, one wonders, why the west doesn't unite first with fellow western christians rather than pursue a suspect re-unification with eastern orthodoxy; after all, protestanism is a logical fallout of r. catholicism. But R. catholics will look on the lutherans, anglicans, baptists, etc as 'heretics.' Seeing itself as the source of christianity, Rome considers Orthodox as schismatic ( correct me if i'm wrong, but this was pre-vatican 11 theology). It is Rome's departure from Orthodoxy that has promoted the morphing of Christianity into various defections.......so again, where does the suppossed 1st step toward unity begin???...............................joe

Pardonne-moi:
No the Catholic Church is not the Mother of schisms,heresies, and apostasies. Just putting all the blame on Rome is just one of the many bias that some have against the Ecumenical Pontiff of Rome.  SO, you are saying the Christian East has never produced anymajor schisms,heresies, and apostasies? Have you forgotten the Arian apostasy in the 4th century, which denied Christ's divinity? That started in the CHristian east. The Arians caused a worldwide apostasy from the Faith and about 80% of the bishops were Arians. The only good bishop left was St.Athanasius and he kept the Faith alive through that time.  Also note, ST.Athanasius traveled from East to West and North to South,giving the Sacraments to the scattered flocks.  He rarely got a safe rest anywhere and was hounded by Ecclesiastics and only gained rest in Gaul,where he was welcomed by St.Ireaneaus of Poitiers. Also what about Nestorianism? Noviatianism? The East is not immacualte

[Mor Ephrem]

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

Or you could come back to the Church.  

[jdudan54]

 Catholic Eagle,
      Your point is excellent and well taken; of course the east is not immune to heretics ( including bishops who erred). todays Orthodox Church is fragmented in many places by jurisdictionalism, which is too messy to discuss here. The early church hammered out the doctrine and formulated what books would occupy the bible, long before an established papacy existed, but as you pointed out ,still was fractured by nestorianism, arianism, etc. So no, i do not think Rome is the 'source' of all error but i do think it's unwavering posture on papal allegiance is a pre-cursor to error.....i percieve these overtures for unity to have an apocalyptic significance in setting up a one religion system, based on ecclesiastical structure, occupied by a pope... thats my bias............................................................................................................joe

[sdcheung]

I did come back to the Church..The Holy Orthodox Church, the only ark of salvation that christ left for us.

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

Or you could come back to the Church.  

[CatholicEagle]

Catholic Eagle,
      Your point is excellent and well taken; of course the east is not immune to heretics ( including bishops who erred). todays Orthodox Church is fragmented in many places by jurisdictionalism, which is too messy to discuss here. The early church hammered out the doctrine and formulated what books would occupy the bible, long before an established papacy existed, but as you pointed out ,still was fractured by nestorianism, arianism, etc. So no, i do not think Rome is the 'source' of all error but i do think it's unwavering posture on papal allegiance is a pre-cursor to error.....i percieve these overtures for unity to have an apocalyptic significance in setting up a one religion system, based on ecclesiastical structure, occupied by a pope... thats my bias............................................................................................................joe

Sorry to sound stupid here,  but have your read the Lasallette prophecies? It seems that "Orthodox" hold to them. Any cconnection?

[Arystarcus]

Sorry to sound stupid here,  but have your read the Lasallette prophecies? It seems that "Orthodox" hold to them. Any cconnection?

Hmmm..... I've never heard of any Orthodox that "hold to" the LaSalette prophesies and if I am not mistaken I believe it to be exclusive to the Roman Catholic tradition. I am curious to know where you get your information.

In Christ,
Aaron

[prodromos]

Have you forgotten the Arian apostasy in the 4th century, which denied Christ's divinity? That started in the CHristian east. The Arians caused a worldwide apostasy from the Faith and about 80% of the bishops were Arians. The only good bishop left was St.Athanasius and he kept the Faith alive through that time.  Also note, ST.Athanasius traveled from East to West and North to South,giving the Sacraments to the scattered flocks.  He rarely got a safe rest anywhere and was hounded by Ecclesiastics and only gained rest in Gaul,where he was welcomed by St.Ireaneaus of Poitiers. Also what about Nestorianism? Noviatianism? The East is not immacualte

Of course there were many heresies in the East, but they were all put to rest in the East also because the gates of Hades cannot prevail against the church. The Roman schism has seperated you from the church, however and so your innovations have not been put to rest, nor do you have any power to put to rest the multitude of heresies springing up in your Protestant offspring.

John.

[Fr. David]

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

Maybe in another 500 years...

LOL -- Right!  Let's not move too quickly...taking it at a nice, "brisk," Orthodox pace...

[Αριστοκλής]

Thank you for anticipating most of my reply to CE, John. I would like to add a further $.02 if I may.
Without doubt the Orthodox Bishops of Rome are rightly venerated as saints for their defenses of the Faith - whether the heresy originated in the Christian "east" or 'west' is of no importance. In point of fact even a local 'western' heresy- the filioque- was tolerated until the Bishop of Rome introduced the further error of Papalism (and then affirmed the filioque error). Separating the See of Rome from the Church deprived the west of being corrected. The result - the mess that's called western Christianity today.

Demetri

[sdcheung]

Ela Demetri..
I think you're right

[optxogokcoc]

I did not expect to see that a simple and honest prayer shall bring so many polemics in regard to a sad separation.

Lord is risen.


ICXC
NIKA

[Αριστοκλής]

 Orthodoxia i thanatos...

as you note yourself on the left above.

[jdudan54]

re: unity

          " let all who truly seek god stop talking about the union of the churches. the church does not admit of union because she was never broken. men leave her, even if they retain many of her external marks. let all who love god return to the church and humble themselves that they may enter, because her gate is narrow and one must bend very low in order to pass through." ( Alexander Kalomiros)   .......faithful orthodox will not confuse bending the knee to the papacy over some pretense of unity..                                                                                                  joe