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Author Topic: That they all may be one!  (Read 10392 times) Average Rating: 0
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optxogokcoc
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« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2004, 07:17:59 PM »

Dear JDUDAN54, Lord is risen.

I am sorry to be offensive towards you in this post, do not take it as an insult, because it is not.



Do not be uncharitable and plainly rude.

No one here stated (at least not me) that the Church has been broken.
No one here has asked for us to bend the knee to the papacy.
No one here is pretending, or maybe you have insight into Divine office of mindknowing.

So. If you, or anybody else for that matter, has any problems with this prayer, please start own treads with dedicated theme. This was not intented to be polemic thread.


I beg you not to use this for your messages of blind hatred and achristian (before you start nonsense, achristian does meancharity) polemics.

I would beg of administrator to clean up and lock this prayer, of completely erase it. The One who matters has heard it... indeed He prayed in as similar manner.

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« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2004, 03:02:51 AM »

 
      Wink  First of all, i'm not clear of 'what  prayer' your referring to in your message to me.... the prayer that 'they  all may be one'....Huh I regret my post then, if you see it as an 'attack' on unity, and kindly rescind any negative comments made.....the quote i took from the book 'AGAINST FALSE UNION' was not deemed personal to any individual on the post; my 'subjective' view of the papacy may be the core issue and i will keep it muted. If you feel i should leave leave the board, thats understandable....
perhaps i need to 'own' more of my sin than project it outwards...............
                                                                         in peace let us pray to the lord, joe
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« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2004, 06:08:39 AM »

Brother, brother, peace be to you in our Lord Jesus Crucified.

From early times, followers of Jesus from Nazareth, have had difference of oppinion in regard to questions of faith, and many arguments have happened. Many of these arguments were harsh.

This is why is said:"Dear JDUDAN54, Lord is risen.

I am sorry to be offensive towards you in this post, do not take it as an insult, because it is not".

Be in peace and may God bless you....
You are not going anywhere....



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« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2004, 04:52:19 PM »

Quote
Sorry to sound stupid here,  but have your read the Lasallette prophecies? It seems that "Orthodox" hold to them. Any cconnection?


Hmmm..... I've never heard of any Orthodox that "hold to" the LaSalette prophesies and if I am not mistaken I believe it to be exclusive to the Roman Catholic tradition. I am curious to know where you get your information.

In Christ,
Aaron

Well the Lasallette prophecies state that Rome shall become the seat of the antichrist. To read them go here www.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/lasalet.html
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« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2004, 01:56:27 PM »

 
     Jack,
        I'm hereby uniting to unite. I wasn't setting you up or the papacy as a straw man. These tangible things erected by man in time ( whether orthodox or catholic is irrelevant) are tangible problems that don't vanish via calls for unity. This has been a theological divorce with both parties fixated on the others unrepentance; as a former r.c. myself, i can't see what platform unity will rest on. ( then, i'm not god of course, what do i know)...................................................joe

If you're serious, welcome to the movement.  So far there's two of us; three if the one who started this thread agrees.

The only platform that is necessary or possible is unity itself.  True, there are private revelations, and, I'm sure, collective ones.  But matters of universal importance are revealed to the whole Church.  Thus the whole Church must be unified to receive it.  The unity that I speak of is unity at the Lord's table.  Once that happens, the Holy Spirit will take care of whatever else is necessary.  So far, official efforts at unity have been putting the cart before the horse in this regard.  

What I propose, then, is that all churches with bishops in apostolic succession agree to intercommunion, or, more correctly, intracommunion, and do this as a first, and not a final, step.  The Holy Spirit will take care of the divisions and the issues that divide us.  A lay movement to inform our bishops of how important this is to us would, I think, spur action.
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« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2004, 02:27:41 PM »

So far, official efforts at unity have been putting the cart before the horse in this regard.  

Respectfully, Jack, I think uniting first and dealing with doctrinal differences is more like this than any official efforts at unity currently being undertaken.  

Quote
What I propose, then, is that all churches with bishops in apostolic succession agree to intercommunion, or, more correctly, intracommunion, and do this as a first, and not a final, step.

Define "apostolic succession", please?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2004, 02:28:07 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2004, 02:32:39 PM »

How can we have unity with the heretics? The Fathers spoke of fleeing from heretics, not having communion with them.  I love the Catholic Church and learned a lot from her, but until the doctrines of filioque papal infallibility are dropped, there can be no union.  The Orthodox Church already has "unity" as Christ's High Priestly Prayer was addressed to the Father regarding the people already IN the Church.  Unity is all Orthodox laying aside jurisdictional junk and being together in the Orthodox Church in a brotherly manner.

To reduce the serious dogmatic differences to "eastern vs. western modes of thinking" makes everyone in the past look stupid: "oh they just didn't understand each other." Sure they did--they read each other's writings, they met together, etc.  Reconicliliation is on the lines of the aftermath of Ephesus. The Antiochians submitted to St Cyril because they were in error.

To say that we are all in error would be ecumenism and syncretism; to say we are all right but in different ways splits the Church.

Jack and others: I used to believe just like you and I bear no animosity towards you or your positions. But you can't live on the fence.  It's either Orthodoxy or Rome. I still appreciate Rome but can't say that it is one with Orthodoxy.

Anastasios

Then, Anastasios, what is the purpose of this forum that you moderate?  It can't be to proselytize Catholics from the territory of the Western Patriarch, since that would contradict the Orthodox position on Catholic proselytizing in Russia.  Is this no more than an online comparative religions seminar?  If so, the tone of the conversations should be far less strident.

Seeking the unity of the Apostolic Churches is not fence sitting; it is a positive position in its own right.  It requires unshakeable faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to achieve what humans cannot.  If unity requires one side convincing the other that it is wrong, you're right; there will be no such unity.  But if unity involves all Apostolic Churches coming together at the Lord's table, without preconditions, and humbly seeking God's will, that is quite doable, and requires only that we overcome human pride and petulance.

It is, moreover, my firm position that unity is not optional.  It is  Christ's prayer, and the Holy Spirit's mandate.  It only stands to reason that if we are opposed to Christ's prayer, we are opposed to Christ.  Neither you nor I want to do that.
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« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2004, 02:52:46 PM »

 
       When talking of unity, one wonders, why the west doesn't unite first with fellow western christians rather than pursue a suspect re-unification with eastern orthodoxy; after all, protestanism is a logical fallout of r. catholicism. But R. catholics will look on the lutherans, anglicans, baptists, etc as 'heretics.' Seeing itself as the source of christianity, Rome considers Orthodox as schismatic ( correct me if i'm wrong, but this was pre-vatican 11 theology). It is Rome's departure from Orthodoxy that has promoted the morphing of Christianity into various defections.......so again, where does the suppossed 1st step toward unity begin???...............................joe

Well, without getting into an argument about who departed from who, the reasons that the Protestants are different is because they do not have bishops in apostolic succession.  The way I see it, the Orthodox can share the Lord's table with us without changing anything.  But you can't unify with, say, the Presbyterians in the same way because there's no "there" there.  Without a bishop in apostolic succession there's no church with which to unify.  That doesn't mean that the Protestants don't have much to contribute, they do.  But uniting with them can only happen on an individual level, not a hierarchical one.  The Old Catholics have bishops in apostolic succession, but uniting with them is a different question than uniting with the Orthodox because the Old Catholics are properly under the Western Patriarchate.  They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.
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« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2004, 02:59:21 PM »


Respectfully, Jack, I think uniting first and dealing with doctrinal differences is more like this than any official efforts at unity currently being undertaken.  

And I disagree for the reasons stated.

Define "apostolic succession", please?  

The succession of bishops going back to the apostles signified by the unbroken chain of laying on of hands in the ordination.
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« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2004, 04:22:51 PM »

They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.

The statement that refutes Jack's entire argument.

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« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2004, 04:23:17 PM »

Jack,

One of the reasons that we have an Orthodox-Catholic folder is to encourage person-to-person ecumenism, which I think is valid because it builds bridges and ecourages openness to one another as human beings and Christians.

Another reason is so that any true misunderstandings may be cleared up.  We have enough substantive differences to not necessitate trumping up fake differences.  A forum such as this can allow that to be cleared up.

Still another reason is that some Orthodox enjoy learning what Catholics think on issue X and vice versa.

However, for me and for Fr Georges Florovsky, Church unity means universal conversion to the Orthodox Church (c.f. Ecumenism II in his collected works).

Anastasios
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« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2004, 04:25:41 PM »


Respectfully, Jack, I think uniting first and dealing with doctrinal differences is more like this than any official efforts at unity currently being undertaken.  

And I disagree for the reasons stated.

Define "apostolic succession", please?  

The succession of bishops going back to the apostles signified by the unbroken chain of laying on of hands in the ordination.

Apostolic succession also includes a faith element. Even RC's admit this: Anglicans have the hands-on-the-heads but changed the undersatanding of the sacrificial priesthood (by Rome's pov at least--let our Anglican friends speak for themselves)--thus negating their succession. From an Orthodox POV Roman Catholics negated the succession when they went into heresy, although the process was more akin to a slow "death" than a sudden clear-cut rupture.

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« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2004, 04:33:02 PM »

Quote
It can't be to proselytize Catholics from the territory of the Western Patriarch, since that would contradict the Orthodox position on Catholic proselytizing in Russia.

First of all, that is a real stretch. Trying to convert Catholics on the internet is not the same thing as converting anyone in real life, wherever he may be.

Second of all, neither the Internet nor the United States of America is Catholic country or "the Western Patriarchate."  It's an immigrant country with no clear incultured Apostolic Church to use your terminology.  You can make the case that Latin America is inculturated Roman Catholic, but not the USA.

Next, I am against signing anti-Proselytism agreements because for me, they are not worth the paper upon which they are written--both Catholics and the Orthodox who sign them include "conscience clauses" and "exceptions".  Don't tell me that a Roman Catholic Church using Russian is going to turn away Russian Orthodox knocking at the door.  Nor would I expect them too.  On the other hand, what the Moscow Patriarchate, under the control of the communists, did in the 1980's--namely shut down many of its parishes in Italy so as to not "proselytize" is ludicrous--those six or seven priests went to Metropolitan Cyrpian's Old Calendar Church after they were written off as "undesirables."

Orthodox have every right to be in every country trying to present the Gospel.  They shouldn't be signing anti-proselytism agreements because even though that provides some protection it ends up selling the Orthodox conscience.  If Roman Catholics start proselytizing in Russia more because we revoke the agreements with them, fine. We should be willing to take that risk, because we cannot be a party to ANYTHING that limits our witness.

Anastasios
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« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2004, 04:55:21 PM »

 Lets not forget 'faith' in the apostolic succession schematic; in the orthodox sense, the laying on of hands is one dimension (of succession), while the transmission of the faith constitutes the other. Thus when one departs from the orthodox faith, he ceases to be orthodox, in spite of his having recieved appropriate ordination.....the old catholics can apply the 'legality' of apostolic succession in the r.catholic sense from the laying on of hands and can argue for 'validity', thus starting a separate church. Thus they defend deviations like female priesthood from a 'valid' succession protocol.......I'm reminded of the pharisees tempting christ with a perfect 'lineage' argument - back to abraham, so they said.....but Christ was infuriated with their lack of faith; i think he termed them 'walking corpse.' If we accept the notion that 'faith without works is dead' might we also conclude apostolic succession without apostolic faith is also dead? Our unity as orthodox-catholics must be a unity of faith - perhaps rehashing the faith aspect of succession needs priority.......................................joe
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« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2004, 04:59:56 PM »

[The way I see it, the Orthodox can share the Lord's table with us without changing anything. ]

That's what you told those who joined the 'Unia' 400+ years ago and look what happened to them.

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I Corinthians 1:10  -  Now I plead with you, brethern, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, THAT YOU ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, and that there be no divisions among you, BUT THAT YOU BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER IN THE SAME MIND AND IN THE SAME JUDGEMENT.

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« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2004, 05:30:27 PM »

If I understand Jack correctly, he is speaking of the Old Catholics, but not the Orthodox with this particular statement.

In Christ,
Anthony

They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.

The statement that refutes Jack's entire argument.

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« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2004, 05:40:41 PM »

Well, without getting into an argument about who departed from who, the reasons that the Protestants are different is because they do not have bishops in apostolic succession.

Anastasios brought up a relevant point in his post, and one that was brought up in my Church History class the other day.  Apostolic succession is not just an unbroken physical link to the apostles through the laying on of hands.  If it was (and your response to me can be read that way), then Anglicans and possibly other Protestant groups could claim it.  Then what?  Your church says they lost it anyway because of a change in the faith, and they are right.  Apostolic succession, according to my professor (who in turn bases himself on the thought of St. Irenaeus), is the teaching of and belief in the faith of the apostles, and its continuity, both in terms of its not having been changed and in the passing on of the apostolic ministry in and for the Church.  True faith and the laying on of hands are both necessary.          

Quote
The way I see it, the Orthodox can share the Lord's table with us without changing anything.  But you can't unify with, say, the Presbyterians in the same way because there's no "there" there.  Without a bishop in apostolic succession there's no church with which to unify.  That doesn't mean that the Protestants don't have much to contribute, they do.  But uniting with them can only happen on an individual level, not a hierarchical one.  The Old Catholics have bishops in apostolic succession, but uniting with them is a different question than uniting with the Orthodox because the Old Catholics are properly under the Western Patriarchate.  They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.

I don't get this.  Your original point was that we shouldn't deal with doctrinal differences before achieving unity, but rather we should unite, in obedience to Christ's High Priestly prayer, and trust in the Holy Spirit to "heal that which is infirm and complete that which is lacking".  What makes the Protestants different?  The lack of apostolic succession?  Surely the Holy Spirit can take care of that as well?  Besides, if they have valid baptism, they are already a part of the Church in some way, however imperfect, according to your church: there is already something "there" with which He can work.  I don't understand how you can leave out the Protestants from this union scheme in a corporate sense.  Let us all, RC's, Orthodox, and Protestants, unite together, forgetting doctrinal differences, in obedience to Christ, and let the Holy Spirit heal all divisions that remain.  From your posts, I don't think you'd agree with this, and I think that's because you realise that at a certain point, there are real differences that need to be ironed out before union can take place.  You and I simply disagree on how far to apply that, and I don't understand your reasoning.
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« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2004, 09:01:27 PM »

If I understand Jack correctly, he is speaking of the Old Catholics, but not the Orthodox with this particular statement.

In Christ,
Anthony

They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.

The statement that refutes Jack's entire argument.

Demetri

And perhaps you do understand Jack correctly...seems to me to be applying a double standard however.

Demetri
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« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2004, 01:18:34 AM »

But if unity involves all Apostolic Churches coming together at the Lord's table, without preconditions, and humbly seeking God's will, that is quite doable, and requires only that we overcome human pride and petulance.

The assumption here being that all confessions with catholic practice are inherently equal, yes?  A dangerous assumption.  As has been mentioned before, "Apostolic" means laying on of hands and correct doctrine...the former has been met by all groups in quesiton; the latter, were it already met, would quell any need for "unification," as unity would already be upon us.

What if one confession really DOES have the fulness of faith just within itself?
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« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2004, 01:20:45 AM »

A question I just asked myself...how many of us, in spite of our aversion to proclaiming unity before achieving it, are actually praying actively for things like the prayer that began this thread?

Let us pray.  Thanks, O.I.T.
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« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2004, 02:18:14 PM »

The statement that refutes Jack's entire argument.

DemetriAnd perhaps you do understand Jack correctly...seems to me to be applying a double standard however.

Demetri

Anthony understands me perfectly.  The reasons for the distinction are historical.
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« Reply #66 on: October 04, 2004, 05:07:38 PM »

Anthony understands me perfectly.  The reasons for the distinction are historical.
Oh, OK...
 :rolleyes:
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« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2004, 05:01:11 PM »


...+¦+++¦ -Ç+¦++-ä+¦-é +¦++ -ë-â+¦++ +¦+¦++-ë-é -â-Ã  -Ç+¦-ä+¦-ü +¦++ +¦+++++¦ +¦+¦+¦-ë +¦++ -â+++¦ +¦+++¦ +¦+¦+¦ +¦-Ã -ä+++¦ +¦++ +++++¦++ +¦++ -ë-â+¦++ +¦+++¦ ++ +¦++-â++++-é -Ç+¦-â-ä+¦-Ã -â++ ++-ä+¦ -â-Ã  +++¦ +¦-Ç+¦-â-ä+¦+¦+++¦-é...

In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, our Most Holy Trinity and through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all the Saints in the Church Triumphant, I pray for the future of the Church Militant.

As our Lord Jesus Christos, the Saviour and the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, fully God and fully Man has prayed to You in the holy Gospel of John the Beloved and the Theologian:"I... pray... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Be merciful to us sinners, O Glory of the universe.
Be kind to us sinners, O Light of all creation.
Be on salvation to us sinners, O Love of all past, the present and future.

O God of old and young, male and female, alive and dead help us to overcome the differences and become united for Your glory.

O, God let us see the pain we caused to You in our stupidity. And let us become sad and weep in sorrow for helping the evil one in his unholy deeds.

Forgive our sins and wash us with you allpresent mercy and your forgiveness.

I beg this of You, Father, the Creator, in the name of the Son, the Light from Light through the Holy Spirit the giver of life.

Glory to You Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and all through the all ages of eternity. Amin.


I beg of all the brothers and sisters to join me in this prayer of the most sinful man in the universe, so that it may reach the bottom stairs of the Mostholy Divine throne and be heard and fullfiled so that we, Catholic Christians of the East and West may be reunited and glorify the Most Holy Trinity as it is meant to be done.


I want to whole heartedly join in this prayer also. (Sorry I got there so late  Sad )

This is what Jesus prayed for, and therefore it behooves us all to agree with Him. If you cannot agree with the prayer that Jesus prayed then you are not for Him but against Him (Lk.9:50), no matter what 'denomination' you are part of.

Prayer paves the way because once we ask in agreement God can answer our prayer. St.James has said some strong words in the 4th chapter of his epistle.

It takes humility instead of pride;
it takes humility instead of self-righteousness;
it takes humility instead of judging each other.

When we come before our Judge we will not be asked about how and what we thought about some bishop, Pope or no Pope etc. We will be asked whether we have been in agreement with His Son or not.

I want to be with those who are.

James 4:8 gives good advise as to how to prepare ourselves:
"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.
Cleanse your hands, ye sinners;
and purify your hearts, ye double minded."

His presence in our daily life makes all the difference. It has a transforming power.

And, Brother, that is a very beautiful prayer. Thank you!

Shiloah              

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« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2004, 05:23:14 PM »



Hmmm..... I've never heard of any Orthodox that "hold to" the LaSalette prophesies and if I am not mistaken I believe it to be exclusive to the Roman Catholic tradition. I am curious to know where you get your information.

In Christ, AaronWell the Lasallette prophecies state that Rome shall become the seat of the antichrist. To read them go here  Huhwww.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/lasalet.html

Iwould be careful about this--remember, Satin and his angels can appear as an angel of light--oh well, I'll stick to may own issues, pray for unity of all true believers, and let God sort it out. Wink
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« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2004, 09:03:56 PM »

Brother, brother, peace be to you in our Lord Jesus Crucified.

From early times, followers of Jesus from Nazareth, have had difference of oppinion in regard to questions of faith, and many arguments have happened. Many of these arguments were harsh.

This is why is said:"Dear JDUDAN54, Lord is risen.

I am sorry to be offensive towards you in this post, do not take it as an insult, because it is not".

Be in peace and may God bless you....
You are not going anywhere....



ICXC
NIKA



I'd be curious to see how you think unity could or should be achieved, Orthodoxos.
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« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2004, 11:26:00 PM »

I am the first one to attack the RC in many aspects of their practice, and not just in those considered heterodox. I love attacking RC due to a hope that this will cause a "knee jerk" reaction and make them read history more. The answers are in the history. They have always been there. My, sometimes harsh, attacks are there because I really love Rome as the foremost see of the holy pentarchy and it makes me very, very sad to see separation still present.

It is history (without going into Pneumatology now) that brought me to Orthodoxy. I was born in what you might consider an Orthodox country (although this is always relative) but I was not an Orthodox until many years after I left that country. Answers for all and to all are in the past.

Jack, I hold the oppinio of the more "softer" side within the Holy Church that states that doctrinal differences between Church and Rome are not the real thing but the context or the base for their presence. How could unity be achieved? I asked this my geron and his answer is the best I came accros. It goes like this:

"I have no idea, it is impossible, it is unreasonable. You can consider yourself stupid, even if you believe that it can happen. So is the second and glorious comming of the Saviour. God loves making impossible happen".

Jack,  I have no idea...

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« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2004, 09:29:47 PM »

What accord or unity may Good have with evil, or Truth with error? Yes, Our Lord wanted all to come to Him, but did He not also say, Many our called but few are chosen?

I wish I were not so tired and downstairs away from my books. Another day. Good night!
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« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2004, 02:54:09 PM »

Better to be of ONE MIND, ONE FAITH, and ONE CREED than to fall into compromise to satisfy the wants of the Vatican.  We are just fine the way we are, thank you.  I would be just as happy with the Vatican relinquishing its efforts for unity because, IMHO, it will only result in us sacrificing out faith by our well meaning hierarchs.
 
Anaxios, Anaxios, Anaxios.

JoeS  :-";"xx
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« Reply #73 on: November 24, 2004, 06:49:52 PM »

View of Papacy in years before 1054 by Russian Orthodox historian, Mikhail Posnov, now available in English at www. authorhouse.com.  Provides historical view of Papacy and view of Eastern Church for Roman Catholics.  Very helpful to understand History for many Russians who have been able to obtain this book which like famous Synodal Bible, published in Russian by Belgian Russian Catholics.
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« Reply #74 on: November 27, 2004, 11:31:46 AM »

I have been praying for unity every day among all true believers that are seeking God and His will. I believe He is answering this prayer as evidenced by the many new converts to the Holy Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2004, 12:05:51 AM »

Uh, it says that this section of the forum is dedicated to a conversation "in charity" about Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I ask you all to review your posts and see if they conform to this standard.
I am new here, but it seems to me that what we have here is not, for the most part, sincere dialogue, but the sort of partisan selective quotation-from-authority  arguments that characterize Fundamentalist, Latin Traditionalist, Islamic Jihadist, blah, blah, blah, forums, the tired sort of patting one another on the back substitute for thought that makes those who agree with one another already feel great but teach those outside the circle nothing.
Just my reaction...
-Daniel, longing for union, and for that matter, substantive conversation
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 12:07:04 AM by iconophile » Logged
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« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2004, 12:40:21 AM »

the Thread looks good.
what you talkin' about willis?
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« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2004, 01:08:44 AM »

Iconophile,

Pretty good deduction, but we humans are prone to reactionary behavior,  hopefully we will learn to harness it .

james
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« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2004, 10:16:30 PM »

what you talkin' about willis?  

  That quote dates you! Wink
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« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2004, 11:28:26 PM »

As I am a recent convert, I do a lot of reading--here is something I came across --perhaps someone with a bit more theological background can comment.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/prot_rc_heresy.aspx

This should be interesting.

John
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