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Author Topic: That they all may be one!  (Read 10088 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 26, 2004, 09:27:26 AM »

...+¦+++¦ -Ç+¦++-ä+¦-é +¦++ -ë-â+¦++ +¦+¦++-ë-é -â-Ã  -Ç+¦-ä+¦-ü +¦++ +¦+++++¦ +¦+¦+¦-ë +¦++ -â+++¦ +¦+++¦ +¦+¦+¦ +¦-Ã -ä+++¦ +¦++ +++++¦++ +¦++ -ë-â+¦++ +¦+++¦ ++ +¦++-â++++-é -Ç+¦-â-ä+¦-Ã -â++ ++-ä+¦ -â-Ã  +++¦ +¦-Ç+¦-â-ä+¦+¦+++¦-é...

In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, our Most Holy Trinity and through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all the Saints in the Church Triumphant, I pray for the future of the Church Militant.

As our Lord Jesus Christos, the Saviour and the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, fully God and fully Man has prayed to You in the holy Gospel of John the Beloved and the Theologian:"I... pray... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Be merciful to us sinners, O Glory of the universe.
Be kind to us sinners, O Light of all creation.
Be on salvation to us sinners, O Love of all past, the present and future.

O God of old and young, male and female, alive and dead help us to overcome the differences and become united for Your glory.

O, God let us see the pain we caused to You in our stupidity. And let us become sad and weep in sorrow for helping the evil one in his unholy deeds.

Forgive our sins and wash us with you allpresent mercy and your forgiveness.

I beg this of You, Father, the Creator, in the name of the Son, the Light from Light through the Holy Spirit the giver of life.

Glory to You Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and all through the all ages of eternity. Amin.


I beg of all the brothers and sisters to join me in this prayer of the most sinful man in the universe, so that it may reach the bottom stairs of the Mostholy Divine throne and be heard and fullfiled so that we, Catholic Christians of the East and West may be reunited and glorify the Most Holy Trinity as it is meant to be done.
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2004, 11:21:38 AM »

I join you in prayer.

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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2004, 03:35:56 PM »

I'm with you.  I just prayed the prayer.  And it is my ongoing prayer that this be realized.
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2004, 05:02:37 PM »

<-- No tpraying for this.
Until Pope is Orthodox. and the patriarchate of the West is Orthodox
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2004, 05:09:45 PM »

<-- No tpraying for this.
Until Pope is Orthodox. and the patriarchate of the West is Orthodox  

How is that gonna happen without prayer?  And if you wait until it does happen, then what is the point of prayer?
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2004, 05:33:39 PM »

Oh ..sharp pointy things, and a Imported Bishop from the East.
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2004, 09:12:35 PM »

Oh ..sharp pointy things, and a Imported Bishop from the East.

Maybe its not until the "Orthodox" bishops become Catholic?
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2004, 11:05:12 PM »

[Maybe its not until the "Orthodox" bishops become Catholic?]

But Orthodox bishops are Catholic!  They never left the Catholic Church.  They are still part of the 'One Holy CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church'  they profess belief in when we recite the Creed in it's original forum.

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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2004, 01:54:37 PM »

I know its not worth much at all, but I prayed as well.
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2004, 11:07:57 AM »

I will join you in this prayer. I was a cradle RC, and left it a long time ago for a journey in Protestantism-- I thank God Almighty for His mercy and bringing me home to His Holy Orthodox Church.

Ironically, He used the Catholic Network to help me find the Orthodox Church! For those who are waiting for the pope to become Orthodox, I would remind you that if He could save this wicked sinner--He can do anything--let's just pray daily and let Him take care of the details.

John
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2004, 12:53:11 AM »

 Grin

      It would appear that unity will evade the ecumaniac because even if the pope were to officially become orthodox, juridically speaking, he would still lack, as so many western orthodox do, the orthodox mind set; a mind set not formed on philosophical systems and legal terms or conceptual templates. Such a papacy would renounce the papacy as an inordinate creation of human systems over belief in god; he would recognize and admit to the incredible damage done by augustine and his influence, especially his attempt to bridge the gap between creation and the uncreated god with reason and rationalism - a mistake that was 'pregnant' with the offspring we know as protestantism. Apologist Alexander Kalomiros explains it better: " Catholicism, Protestantism, and Atheism are on the same level. They are offsprings of the same mentality. All three are philosophical systems, offsprings of rationalism, that is, of the notion that human reason is the foundation of certainty, the measure of truth, and the way of knowledge. The Orthodox have a different mentality. they regard philosophy as a dead end which never led man to certainty, truth, and knowledge......the only way to knowledge is purity of heart. It alone permits the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in man. In this way alone is god and his whole creation known, without being conceptualized." .............now, i admit to my bias here, but for the orthodox to 'adopt' a western mind set as if there were no difference is highly improbable.......but i'll pray too
                                                                         joseph
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2004, 08:03:35 AM »

     joseph  

Are you stating that the Pope pre-schism had an Orthdodox eastern mindset as opposed to an Orthodox western mindset?

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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2004, 08:09:59 AM »

Our Faith is Orthodox, our Church is Catholic.

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"Maybe its not until the "Orthodox" bishops become Catholic?"


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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2004, 04:30:39 PM »

 
    Yes Joe,
        I'm saying that pre-schism popes were still orthodox. Fr. Azkoul notes, " Diversity of cultures did not translate into diversity of creeds, precisely because the cultures were transformed by the religion they welcomed - the reverse of what is occuring today." He reminds us that during the 7th and 8th centuries, most popes were Greek; as late as 843, the west continued with icon painting... but this unity erodes through Augustine's introduction of rationalism as a 'wedge' between the incomprehensible god and the created nature, created order. The subsequent developments evolve into a culture of rationalism, where culture eventually triumphs over religion. As you know, if one is a 'traditional' catholic, or 'traditional' orthodox today, the modern -rationale is to consider them 'fanatic.' In my opinion, the current notion that 'they may all be one' is a cry for unity on false premise. the premise that dividing differences are minimal and can be swallowed up into a giant merger of ecclesiastical structures ignores how these mind sets are to be digested. Once swallowed, i suspect the digestive tract of the church to be constipated for some time; but then, maybe that will be a good thing....maybe really clever theologians will have to inspect and question just what it was they consumed; that way, they can find out what really is spiritually nutritious.........................
                                                                             peace, joe
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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2004, 11:07:45 AM »

"In my opinion, the current notion that 'they may all be one' is a cry for unity on false premise. the premise that dividing differences are minimal and can be swallowed up into a giant merger of ecclesiastical structures ignores how these mind sets are to be digested"

I agree we must never surrender our core beliefs. We need to stand firm, but also we need to pray for unity. Again, let God sort  out.  As the prayer of St. Ehriam says, " Help me to see my own transgressions and not judge my brother" Don't know about you, but that helps me to keep things in perspective.

Blessings,
John
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2004, 03:06:43 PM »

 Wink  
       JOHN,
           good post, good advice; i'm with you on that.
                                                       peace, joseph
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2004, 06:22:57 PM »

"That they may all be one" is not a cry for unity on a false premise, but the prayer of Christ himself.  To be opposed to unity is to be opposed to Christ.  Differences between western and eastern modes of thinking don't matter, because if they did it would be even more difficult to convert the far east.  Christ is bigger than any culture.  We can either obey Christ and unite or make excuses.  Those are the choices.
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« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2004, 11:17:30 PM »

  Jack,
     While i agree in 'spirit' with Christ's prayer for unity, differences in thought do matter and are often primary obstacles; however, that doesn't imply one is automatically oppossed to unity. Think or imagine, the western church dropping any pretense to submission to a 'papacy.' The very idea is anathama to R.C.'s as they view unity hinged on this principle. When in fact, unity is hinged on a eucharistic unity, not modeled or subordinate to a particular hierarch....this 'thought' is so rooted in the west that the false premise of christians in the east 'needing conversion' - the far east that birthed christianity- drives a deeper wedge between orthodox and catholics. Christs call for unity was certainly not a call for submission to an ecclesiastical office designed and elevated with political overtones...to be formally erected in subsequent centuries after his death..            peace, joe
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2004, 08:44:53 PM »

 Jack,
     While i agree in 'spirit' with Christ's prayer for unity, differences in thought do matter and are often primary obstacles; however, that doesn't imply one is automatically oppossed to unity. Think or imagine, the western church dropping any pretense to submission to a 'papacy.' The very idea is anathama to R.C.'s as they view unity hinged on this principle. When in fact, unity is hinged on a eucharistic unity, not modeled or subordinate to a particular hierarch....this 'thought' is so rooted in the west that the false premise of christians in the east 'needing conversion' - the far east that birthed christianity- drives a deeper wedge between orthodox and catholics. Christs call for unity was certainly not a call for submission to an ecclesiastical office designed and elevated with political overtones...to be formally erected in subsequent centuries after his death..            peace, joe

Joe, with all due respect, you're arguing with a straw man.  I am not saying that the Orthodox are in need of any more conversion than the Catholics are (we look on it as a continuing process).  I disagree with you on the history, but my point his that we're never going to get to unity by argumentation.  The only way it's going to happen is through the operation of the Holy Spirit.  Now the Holy Spirit speaks to both sides, Orthodox and Catholic.  The Holy Spirit wouldn't stop speaking to us if we united; we both have bishops in apostolic succession.  The only way to stop sinning is to stop.  The only way to unite is to unite.
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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2004, 12:10:12 AM »

 
     Jack,
        I'm hereby uniting to unite. I wasn't setting you up or the papacy as a straw man. These tangible things erected by man in time ( whether orthodox or catholic is irrelevant) are tangible problems that don't vanish via calls for unity. This has been a theological divorce with both parties fixated on the others unrepentance; as a former r.c. myself, i can't see what platform unity will rest on. ( then, i'm not god of course, what do i know)...................................................joe
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2004, 10:01:10 AM »

How can we have unity with the heretics? The Fathers spoke of fleeing from heretics, not having communion with them.  I love the Catholic Church and learned a lot from her, but until the doctrines of filioque papal infallibility are dropped, there can be no union.  The Orthodox Church already has "unity" as Christ's High Priestly Prayer was addressed to the Father regarding the people already IN the Church.  Unity is all Orthodox laying aside jurisdictional junk and being together in the Orthodox Church in a brotherly manner.

To reduce the serious dogmatic differences to "eastern vs. western modes of thinking" makes everyone in the past look stupid: "oh they just didn't understand each other." Sure they did--they read each other's writings, they met together, etc.  Reconicliliation is on the lines of the aftermath of Ephesus. The Antiochians submitted to St Cyril because they were in error.

To say that we are all in error would be ecumenism and syncretism; to say we are all right but in different ways splits the Church.

Jack and others: I used to believe just like you and I bear no animosity towards you or your positions. But you can't live on the fence.  It's either Orthodoxy or Rome. I still appreciate Rome but can't say that it is one with Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2004, 10:22:46 AM »

Anastasios,

"To reduce the serious dogmatic differences to "eastern vs. western modes of thinking" makes everyone in the past look stupid: "oh they just didn't understand each other."

Then how do you jusitfy your stance via the Oriental Orthodox.  This is exactly what you and some propose unification with them.  My Church allows me this position but your does not, if you are being consistent.  If, however, you stand by your beliefs concerning the Oriental Orthodox then extend the same consideration to fellow Chalcedonians.  

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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2004, 01:23:40 PM »

I have a baad feeling about Non-Chalcedonians too.
We shouldn't be reuniting with them either.
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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2004, 02:29:19 PM »

Anastasios,

"To reduce the serious dogmatic differences to "eastern vs. western modes of thinking" makes everyone in the past look stupid: "oh they just didn't understand each other."

Then how do you jusitfy your stance via the Oriental Orthodox.  This is exactly what you and some propose unification with them.  My Church allows me this position but your does not, if you are being consistent.  If, however, you stand by your beliefs concerning the Oriental Orthodox then extend the same consideration to fellow Chalcedonians.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

I have always considered acceptance of the last four ecumenical councils on the part of the Non-Chalcedonians a necessary step for reunification between us.  Since they are unlikely to do so, I do not see union with them as possible at this time, however much I personally would like to see it.

Anastasios
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2004, 02:30:00 PM »

I have a baad feeling about Non-Chalcedonians too.
We shouldn't be reuniting with them either.

Why? They are very close to Orthodoxy and their piety is tremendous.  If we could agree dogmatically they would be an asset to the Eastern Orthodox.

Anastasios
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2004, 04:02:00 PM »

[Why? They are very close to Orthodoxy and their piety is tremendous.  If we could agree dogmatically they would be an asset to the Eastern Orthodox.]

I second that!

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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2004, 08:00:07 PM »

[Why? They are very close to Orthodoxy and their piety is tremendous.  If we could agree dogmatically they would be an asset to the Eastern Orthodox.]

I second that!

Orthodoc

As do I.

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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2004, 08:40:12 PM »

As do I.

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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2004, 08:44:12 PM »

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox
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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2004, 09:02:22 PM »

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

Maybe in another 500 years... Wink
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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2004, 09:23:05 PM »

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

En masse, it would be nice. But I don't want their wonderful traditions and liturgies to die out, which would happen if we siphoned them off in small groups.

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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2004, 01:03:16 AM »

   
       When talking of unity, one wonders, why the west doesn't unite first with fellow western christians rather than pursue a suspect re-unification with eastern orthodoxy; after all, protestanism is a logical fallout of r. catholicism. But R. catholics will look on the lutherans, anglicans, baptists, etc as 'heretics.' Seeing itself as the source of christianity, Rome considers Orthodox as schismatic ( correct me if i'm wrong, but this was pre-vatican 11 theology). It is Rome's departure from Orthodoxy that has promoted the morphing of Christianity into various defections.......so again, where does the suppossed 1st step toward unity begin???...............................joe
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2004, 08:06:13 PM »

 
       When talking of unity, one wonders, why the west doesn't unite first with fellow western christians rather than pursue a suspect re-unification with eastern orthodoxy; after all, protestanism is a logical fallout of r. catholicism. But R. catholics will look on the lutherans, anglicans, baptists, etc as 'heretics.' Seeing itself as the source of christianity, Rome considers Orthodox as schismatic ( correct me if i'm wrong, but this was pre-vatican 11 theology). It is Rome's departure from Orthodoxy that has promoted the morphing of Christianity into various defections.......so again, where does the suppossed 1st step toward unity begin???...............................joe

Pardonne-moi:
No the Catholic Church is not the Mother of schisms,heresies, and apostasies. Just putting all the blame on Rome is just one of the many bias that some have against the Ecumenical Pontiff of Rome.  SO, you are saying the Christian East has never produced anymajor schisms,heresies, and apostasies? Have you forgotten the Arian apostasy in the 4th century, which denied Christ's divinity? That started in the CHristian east. The Arians caused a worldwide apostasy from the Faith and about 80% of the bishops were Arians. The only good bishop left was St.Athanasius and he kept the Faith alive through that time.  Also note, ST.Athanasius traveled from East to West and North to South,giving the Sacraments to the scattered flocks.  He rarely got a safe rest anywhere and was hounded by Ecclesiastics and only gained rest in Gaul,where he was welcomed by St.Ireaneaus of Poitiers. Also what about Nestorianism? Noviatianism? The East is not immacualte
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« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2004, 10:34:13 PM »

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

Or you could come back to the Church.  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2004, 12:03:07 AM »

 Catholic Eagle,
      Your point is excellent and well taken; of course the east is not immune to heretics ( including bishops who erred). todays Orthodox Church is fragmented in many places by jurisdictionalism, which is too messy to discuss here. The early church hammered out the doctrine and formulated what books would occupy the bible, long before an established papacy existed, but as you pointed out ,still was fractured by nestorianism, arianism, etc. So no, i do not think Rome is the 'source' of all error but i do think it's unwavering posture on papal allegiance is a pre-cursor to error.....i percieve these overtures for unity to have an apocalyptic significance in setting up a one religion system, based on ecclesiastical structure, occupied by a pope... thats my bias............................................................................................................joe
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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2004, 12:11:20 AM »

I did come back to the Church..The Holy Orthodox Church, the only ark of salvation that christ left for us.

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

Or you could come back to the Church.  Wink
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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2004, 12:17:56 AM »

Catholic Eagle,
      Your point is excellent and well taken; of course the east is not immune to heretics ( including bishops who erred). todays Orthodox Church is fragmented in many places by jurisdictionalism, which is too messy to discuss here. The early church hammered out the doctrine and formulated what books would occupy the bible, long before an established papacy existed, but as you pointed out ,still was fractured by nestorianism, arianism, etc. So no, i do not think Rome is the 'source' of all error but i do think it's unwavering posture on papal allegiance is a pre-cursor to error.....i percieve these overtures for unity to have an apocalyptic significance in setting up a one religion system, based on ecclesiastical structure, occupied by a pope... thats my bias............................................................................................................joe

Sorry to sound stupid here,  but have your read the Lasallette prophecies? It seems that "Orthodox" hold to them. Any cconnection?
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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2004, 02:53:37 AM »

Quote
Sorry to sound stupid here,  but have your read the Lasallette prophecies? It seems that "Orthodox" hold to them. Any cconnection?


Hmmm..... I've never heard of any Orthodox that "hold to" the LaSalette prophesies and if I am not mistaken I believe it to be exclusive to the Roman Catholic tradition. I am curious to know where you get your information.

In Christ,
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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2004, 04:40:43 AM »

Have you forgotten the Arian apostasy in the 4th century, which denied Christ's divinity? That started in the CHristian east. The Arians caused a worldwide apostasy from the Faith and about 80% of the bishops were Arians. The only good bishop left was St.Athanasius and he kept the Faith alive through that time.  Also note, ST.Athanasius traveled from East to West and North to South,giving the Sacraments to the scattered flocks.  He rarely got a safe rest anywhere and was hounded by Ecclesiastics and only gained rest in Gaul,where he was welcomed by St.Ireaneaus of Poitiers. Also what about Nestorianism? Noviatianism? The East is not immacualte

Of course there were many heresies in the East, but they were all put to rest in the East also because the gates of Hades cannot prevail against the church. The Roman schism has seperated you from the church, however and so your innovations have not been put to rest, nor do you have any power to put to rest the multitude of heresies springing up in your Protestant offspring.

John.
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« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2004, 07:00:06 AM »

Then they should become Chalcedonian Orthodox

Maybe in another 500 years... Wink

LOL -- Right!  Let's not move too quickly...taking it at a nice, "brisk," Orthodox pace... Grin Wink Roll Eyes
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« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2004, 09:56:35 AM »

Thank you for anticipating most of my reply to CE, John. I would like to add a further $.02 if I may.
Without doubt the Orthodox Bishops of Rome are rightly venerated as saints for their defenses of the Faith - whether the heresy originated in the Christian "east" or 'west' is of no importance. In point of fact even a local 'western' heresy- the filioque- was tolerated until the Bishop of Rome introduced the further error of Papalism (and then affirmed the filioque error). Separating the See of Rome from the Church deprived the west of being corrected. The result - the mess that's called western Christianity today.

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« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2004, 10:22:38 AM »

Ela Demetri..
I think you're right
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« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2004, 10:40:38 AM »

I did not expect to see that a simple and honest prayer shall bring so many polemics in regard to a sad separation.

Lord is risen.


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« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2004, 10:51:18 AM »

 Orthodoxia i thanatos...

as you note yourself on the left above.
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« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2004, 04:28:40 PM »

re: unity

          " let all who truly seek god stop talking about the union of the churches. the church does not admit of union because she was never broken. men leave her, even if they retain many of her external marks. let all who love god return to the church and humble themselves that they may enter, because her gate is narrow and one must bend very low in order to pass through." ( Alexander Kalomiros)   .......faithful orthodox will not confuse bending the knee to the papacy over some pretense of unity..                                                                                                  joe
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« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2004, 07:17:59 PM »

Dear JDUDAN54, Lord is risen.

I am sorry to be offensive towards you in this post, do not take it as an insult, because it is not.



Do not be uncharitable and plainly rude.

No one here stated (at least not me) that the Church has been broken.
No one here has asked for us to bend the knee to the papacy.
No one here is pretending, or maybe you have insight into Divine office of mindknowing.

So. If you, or anybody else for that matter, has any problems with this prayer, please start own treads with dedicated theme. This was not intented to be polemic thread.


I beg you not to use this for your messages of blind hatred and achristian (before you start nonsense, achristian does meancharity) polemics.

I would beg of administrator to clean up and lock this prayer, of completely erase it. The One who matters has heard it... indeed He prayed in as similar manner.

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« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2004, 03:02:51 AM »

 
      Wink  First of all, i'm not clear of 'what  prayer' your referring to in your message to me.... the prayer that 'they  all may be one'....Huh I regret my post then, if you see it as an 'attack' on unity, and kindly rescind any negative comments made.....the quote i took from the book 'AGAINST FALSE UNION' was not deemed personal to any individual on the post; my 'subjective' view of the papacy may be the core issue and i will keep it muted. If you feel i should leave leave the board, thats understandable....
perhaps i need to 'own' more of my sin than project it outwards...............
                                                                         in peace let us pray to the lord, joe
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« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2004, 06:08:39 AM »

Brother, brother, peace be to you in our Lord Jesus Crucified.

From early times, followers of Jesus from Nazareth, have had difference of oppinion in regard to questions of faith, and many arguments have happened. Many of these arguments were harsh.

This is why is said:"Dear JDUDAN54, Lord is risen.

I am sorry to be offensive towards you in this post, do not take it as an insult, because it is not".

Be in peace and may God bless you....
You are not going anywhere....



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« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2004, 04:52:19 PM »

Quote
Sorry to sound stupid here,  but have your read the Lasallette prophecies? It seems that "Orthodox" hold to them. Any cconnection?


Hmmm..... I've never heard of any Orthodox that "hold to" the LaSalette prophesies and if I am not mistaken I believe it to be exclusive to the Roman Catholic tradition. I am curious to know where you get your information.

In Christ,
Aaron

Well the Lasallette prophecies state that Rome shall become the seat of the antichrist. To read them go here www.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/lasalet.html
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« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2004, 01:56:27 PM »

 
     Jack,
        I'm hereby uniting to unite. I wasn't setting you up or the papacy as a straw man. These tangible things erected by man in time ( whether orthodox or catholic is irrelevant) are tangible problems that don't vanish via calls for unity. This has been a theological divorce with both parties fixated on the others unrepentance; as a former r.c. myself, i can't see what platform unity will rest on. ( then, i'm not god of course, what do i know)...................................................joe

If you're serious, welcome to the movement.  So far there's two of us; three if the one who started this thread agrees.

The only platform that is necessary or possible is unity itself.  True, there are private revelations, and, I'm sure, collective ones.  But matters of universal importance are revealed to the whole Church.  Thus the whole Church must be unified to receive it.  The unity that I speak of is unity at the Lord's table.  Once that happens, the Holy Spirit will take care of whatever else is necessary.  So far, official efforts at unity have been putting the cart before the horse in this regard.  

What I propose, then, is that all churches with bishops in apostolic succession agree to intercommunion, or, more correctly, intracommunion, and do this as a first, and not a final, step.  The Holy Spirit will take care of the divisions and the issues that divide us.  A lay movement to inform our bishops of how important this is to us would, I think, spur action.
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« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2004, 02:27:41 PM »

So far, official efforts at unity have been putting the cart before the horse in this regard.  

Respectfully, Jack, I think uniting first and dealing with doctrinal differences is more like this than any official efforts at unity currently being undertaken.  

Quote
What I propose, then, is that all churches with bishops in apostolic succession agree to intercommunion, or, more correctly, intracommunion, and do this as a first, and not a final, step.

Define "apostolic succession", please?
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« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2004, 02:32:39 PM »

How can we have unity with the heretics? The Fathers spoke of fleeing from heretics, not having communion with them.  I love the Catholic Church and learned a lot from her, but until the doctrines of filioque papal infallibility are dropped, there can be no union.  The Orthodox Church already has "unity" as Christ's High Priestly Prayer was addressed to the Father regarding the people already IN the Church.  Unity is all Orthodox laying aside jurisdictional junk and being together in the Orthodox Church in a brotherly manner.

To reduce the serious dogmatic differences to "eastern vs. western modes of thinking" makes everyone in the past look stupid: "oh they just didn't understand each other." Sure they did--they read each other's writings, they met together, etc.  Reconicliliation is on the lines of the aftermath of Ephesus. The Antiochians submitted to St Cyril because they were in error.

To say that we are all in error would be ecumenism and syncretism; to say we are all right but in different ways splits the Church.

Jack and others: I used to believe just like you and I bear no animosity towards you or your positions. But you can't live on the fence.  It's either Orthodoxy or Rome. I still appreciate Rome but can't say that it is one with Orthodoxy.

Anastasios

Then, Anastasios, what is the purpose of this forum that you moderate?  It can't be to proselytize Catholics from the territory of the Western Patriarch, since that would contradict the Orthodox position on Catholic proselytizing in Russia.  Is this no more than an online comparative religions seminar?  If so, the tone of the conversations should be far less strident.

Seeking the unity of the Apostolic Churches is not fence sitting; it is a positive position in its own right.  It requires unshakeable faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to achieve what humans cannot.  If unity requires one side convincing the other that it is wrong, you're right; there will be no such unity.  But if unity involves all Apostolic Churches coming together at the Lord's table, without preconditions, and humbly seeking God's will, that is quite doable, and requires only that we overcome human pride and petulance.

It is, moreover, my firm position that unity is not optional.  It is  Christ's prayer, and the Holy Spirit's mandate.  It only stands to reason that if we are opposed to Christ's prayer, we are opposed to Christ.  Neither you nor I want to do that.
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« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2004, 02:52:46 PM »

 
       When talking of unity, one wonders, why the west doesn't unite first with fellow western christians rather than pursue a suspect re-unification with eastern orthodoxy; after all, protestanism is a logical fallout of r. catholicism. But R. catholics will look on the lutherans, anglicans, baptists, etc as 'heretics.' Seeing itself as the source of christianity, Rome considers Orthodox as schismatic ( correct me if i'm wrong, but this was pre-vatican 11 theology). It is Rome's departure from Orthodoxy that has promoted the morphing of Christianity into various defections.......so again, where does the suppossed 1st step toward unity begin???...............................joe

Well, without getting into an argument about who departed from who, the reasons that the Protestants are different is because they do not have bishops in apostolic succession.  The way I see it, the Orthodox can share the Lord's table with us without changing anything.  But you can't unify with, say, the Presbyterians in the same way because there's no "there" there.  Without a bishop in apostolic succession there's no church with which to unify.  That doesn't mean that the Protestants don't have much to contribute, they do.  But uniting with them can only happen on an individual level, not a hierarchical one.  The Old Catholics have bishops in apostolic succession, but uniting with them is a different question than uniting with the Orthodox because the Old Catholics are properly under the Western Patriarchate.  They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.
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« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2004, 02:59:21 PM »


Respectfully, Jack, I think uniting first and dealing with doctrinal differences is more like this than any official efforts at unity currently being undertaken.  

And I disagree for the reasons stated.

Define "apostolic succession", please?  

The succession of bishops going back to the apostles signified by the unbroken chain of laying on of hands in the ordination.
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« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2004, 04:22:51 PM »

They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.

The statement that refutes Jack's entire argument.

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« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2004, 04:23:17 PM »

Jack,

One of the reasons that we have an Orthodox-Catholic folder is to encourage person-to-person ecumenism, which I think is valid because it builds bridges and ecourages openness to one another as human beings and Christians.

Another reason is so that any true misunderstandings may be cleared up.  We have enough substantive differences to not necessitate trumping up fake differences.  A forum such as this can allow that to be cleared up.

Still another reason is that some Orthodox enjoy learning what Catholics think on issue X and vice versa.

However, for me and for Fr Georges Florovsky, Church unity means universal conversion to the Orthodox Church (c.f. Ecumenism II in his collected works).

Anastasios
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« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2004, 04:25:41 PM »


Respectfully, Jack, I think uniting first and dealing with doctrinal differences is more like this than any official efforts at unity currently being undertaken.  

And I disagree for the reasons stated.

Define "apostolic succession", please?  

The succession of bishops going back to the apostles signified by the unbroken chain of laying on of hands in the ordination.

Apostolic succession also includes a faith element. Even RC's admit this: Anglicans have the hands-on-the-heads but changed the undersatanding of the sacrificial priesthood (by Rome's pov at least--let our Anglican friends speak for themselves)--thus negating their succession. From an Orthodox POV Roman Catholics negated the succession when they went into heresy, although the process was more akin to a slow "death" than a sudden clear-cut rupture.

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« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2004, 04:33:02 PM »

Quote
It can't be to proselytize Catholics from the territory of the Western Patriarch, since that would contradict the Orthodox position on Catholic proselytizing in Russia.

First of all, that is a real stretch. Trying to convert Catholics on the internet is not the same thing as converting anyone in real life, wherever he may be.

Second of all, neither the Internet nor the United States of America is Catholic country or "the Western Patriarchate."  It's an immigrant country with no clear incultured Apostolic Church to use your terminology.  You can make the case that Latin America is inculturated Roman Catholic, but not the USA.

Next, I am against signing anti-Proselytism agreements because for me, they are not worth the paper upon which they are written--both Catholics and the Orthodox who sign them include "conscience clauses" and "exceptions".  Don't tell me that a Roman Catholic Church using Russian is going to turn away Russian Orthodox knocking at the door.  Nor would I expect them too.  On the other hand, what the Moscow Patriarchate, under the control of the communists, did in the 1980's--namely shut down many of its parishes in Italy so as to not "proselytize" is ludicrous--those six or seven priests went to Metropolitan Cyrpian's Old Calendar Church after they were written off as "undesirables."

Orthodox have every right to be in every country trying to present the Gospel.  They shouldn't be signing anti-proselytism agreements because even though that provides some protection it ends up selling the Orthodox conscience.  If Roman Catholics start proselytizing in Russia more because we revoke the agreements with them, fine. We should be willing to take that risk, because we cannot be a party to ANYTHING that limits our witness.

Anastasios
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« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2004, 04:55:21 PM »

 Lets not forget 'faith' in the apostolic succession schematic; in the orthodox sense, the laying on of hands is one dimension (of succession), while the transmission of the faith constitutes the other. Thus when one departs from the orthodox faith, he ceases to be orthodox, in spite of his having recieved appropriate ordination.....the old catholics can apply the 'legality' of apostolic succession in the r.catholic sense from the laying on of hands and can argue for 'validity', thus starting a separate church. Thus they defend deviations like female priesthood from a 'valid' succession protocol.......I'm reminded of the pharisees tempting christ with a perfect 'lineage' argument - back to abraham, so they said.....but Christ was infuriated with their lack of faith; i think he termed them 'walking corpse.' If we accept the notion that 'faith without works is dead' might we also conclude apostolic succession without apostolic faith is also dead? Our unity as orthodox-catholics must be a unity of faith - perhaps rehashing the faith aspect of succession needs priority.......................................joe
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« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2004, 04:59:56 PM »

[The way I see it, the Orthodox can share the Lord's table with us without changing anything. ]

That's what you told those who joined the 'Unia' 400+ years ago and look what happened to them.

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« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2004, 05:30:27 PM »

If I understand Jack correctly, he is speaking of the Old Catholics, but not the Orthodox with this particular statement.

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Anthony

They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.

The statement that refutes Jack's entire argument.

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« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2004, 05:40:41 PM »

Well, without getting into an argument about who departed from who, the reasons that the Protestants are different is because they do not have bishops in apostolic succession.

Anastasios brought up a relevant point in his post, and one that was brought up in my Church History class the other day.  Apostolic succession is not just an unbroken physical link to the apostles through the laying on of hands.  If it was (and your response to me can be read that way), then Anglicans and possibly other Protestant groups could claim it.  Then what?  Your church says they lost it anyway because of a change in the faith, and they are right.  Apostolic succession, according to my professor (who in turn bases himself on the thought of St. Irenaeus), is the teaching of and belief in the faith of the apostles, and its continuity, both in terms of its not having been changed and in the passing on of the apostolic ministry in and for the Church.  True faith and the laying on of hands are both necessary.          

Quote
The way I see it, the Orthodox can share the Lord's table with us without changing anything.  But you can't unify with, say, the Presbyterians in the same way because there's no "there" there.  Without a bishop in apostolic succession there's no church with which to unify.  That doesn't mean that the Protestants don't have much to contribute, they do.  But uniting with them can only happen on an individual level, not a hierarchical one.  The Old Catholics have bishops in apostolic succession, but uniting with them is a different question than uniting with the Orthodox because the Old Catholics are properly under the Western Patriarchate.  They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.

I don't get this.  Your original point was that we shouldn't deal with doctrinal differences before achieving unity, but rather we should unite, in obedience to Christ's High Priestly prayer, and trust in the Holy Spirit to "heal that which is infirm and complete that which is lacking".  What makes the Protestants different?  The lack of apostolic succession?  Surely the Holy Spirit can take care of that as well?  Besides, if they have valid baptism, they are already a part of the Church in some way, however imperfect, according to your church: there is already something "there" with which He can work.  I don't understand how you can leave out the Protestants from this union scheme in a corporate sense.  Let us all, RC's, Orthodox, and Protestants, unite together, forgetting doctrinal differences, in obedience to Christ, and let the Holy Spirit heal all divisions that remain.  From your posts, I don't think you'd agree with this, and I think that's because you realise that at a certain point, there are real differences that need to be ironed out before union can take place.  You and I simply disagree on how far to apply that, and I don't understand your reasoning.
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« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2004, 09:01:27 PM »

If I understand Jack correctly, he is speaking of the Old Catholics, but not the Orthodox with this particular statement.

In Christ,
Anthony

They don't want to submit to Rome, but they should.

The statement that refutes Jack's entire argument.

Demetri

And perhaps you do understand Jack correctly...seems to me to be applying a double standard however.

Demetri
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« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2004, 01:18:34 AM »

But if unity involves all Apostolic Churches coming together at the Lord's table, without preconditions, and humbly seeking God's will, that is quite doable, and requires only that we overcome human pride and petulance.

The assumption here being that all confessions with catholic practice are inherently equal, yes?  A dangerous assumption.  As has been mentioned before, "Apostolic" means laying on of hands and correct doctrine...the former has been met by all groups in quesiton; the latter, were it already met, would quell any need for "unification," as unity would already be upon us.

What if one confession really DOES have the fulness of faith just within itself?
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« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2004, 01:20:45 AM »

A question I just asked myself...how many of us, in spite of our aversion to proclaiming unity before achieving it, are actually praying actively for things like the prayer that began this thread?

Let us pray.  Thanks, O.I.T.
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« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2004, 02:18:14 PM »

The statement that refutes Jack's entire argument.

DemetriAnd perhaps you do understand Jack correctly...seems to me to be applying a double standard however.

Demetri

Anthony understands me perfectly.  The reasons for the distinction are historical.
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« Reply #66 on: October 04, 2004, 05:07:38 PM »

Anthony understands me perfectly.  The reasons for the distinction are historical.
Oh, OK...
 :rolleyes:
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« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2004, 05:01:11 PM »


...+¦+++¦ -Ç+¦++-ä+¦-é +¦++ -ë-â+¦++ +¦+¦++-ë-é -â-Ã  -Ç+¦-ä+¦-ü +¦++ +¦+++++¦ +¦+¦+¦-ë +¦++ -â+++¦ +¦+++¦ +¦+¦+¦ +¦-Ã -ä+++¦ +¦++ +++++¦++ +¦++ -ë-â+¦++ +¦+++¦ ++ +¦++-â++++-é -Ç+¦-â-ä+¦-Ã -â++ ++-ä+¦ -â-Ã  +++¦ +¦-Ç+¦-â-ä+¦+¦+++¦-é...

In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, our Most Holy Trinity and through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all the Saints in the Church Triumphant, I pray for the future of the Church Militant.

As our Lord Jesus Christos, the Saviour and the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, fully God and fully Man has prayed to You in the holy Gospel of John the Beloved and the Theologian:"I... pray... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Be merciful to us sinners, O Glory of the universe.
Be kind to us sinners, O Light of all creation.
Be on salvation to us sinners, O Love of all past, the present and future.

O God of old and young, male and female, alive and dead help us to overcome the differences and become united for Your glory.

O, God let us see the pain we caused to You in our stupidity. And let us become sad and weep in sorrow for helping the evil one in his unholy deeds.

Forgive our sins and wash us with you allpresent mercy and your forgiveness.

I beg this of You, Father, the Creator, in the name of the Son, the Light from Light through the Holy Spirit the giver of life.

Glory to You Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and all through the all ages of eternity. Amin.


I beg of all the brothers and sisters to join me in this prayer of the most sinful man in the universe, so that it may reach the bottom stairs of the Mostholy Divine throne and be heard and fullfiled so that we, Catholic Christians of the East and West may be reunited and glorify the Most Holy Trinity as it is meant to be done.


I want to whole heartedly join in this prayer also. (Sorry I got there so late  Sad )

This is what Jesus prayed for, and therefore it behooves us all to agree with Him. If you cannot agree with the prayer that Jesus prayed then you are not for Him but against Him (Lk.9:50), no matter what 'denomination' you are part of.

Prayer paves the way because once we ask in agreement God can answer our prayer. St.James has said some strong words in the 4th chapter of his epistle.

It takes humility instead of pride;
it takes humility instead of self-righteousness;
it takes humility instead of judging each other.

When we come before our Judge we will not be asked about how and what we thought about some bishop, Pope or no Pope etc. We will be asked whether we have been in agreement with His Son or not.

I want to be with those who are.

James 4:8 gives good advise as to how to prepare ourselves:
"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.
Cleanse your hands, ye sinners;
and purify your hearts, ye double minded."

His presence in our daily life makes all the difference. It has a transforming power.

And, Brother, that is a very beautiful prayer. Thank you!

Shiloah              

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« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2004, 05:23:14 PM »



Hmmm..... I've never heard of any Orthodox that "hold to" the LaSalette prophesies and if I am not mistaken I believe it to be exclusive to the Roman Catholic tradition. I am curious to know where you get your information.

In Christ, AaronWell the Lasallette prophecies state that Rome shall become the seat of the antichrist. To read them go here  Huhwww.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/lasalet.html

Iwould be careful about this--remember, Satin and his angels can appear as an angel of light--oh well, I'll stick to may own issues, pray for unity of all true believers, and let God sort it out. Wink
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« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2004, 09:03:56 PM »

Brother, brother, peace be to you in our Lord Jesus Crucified.

From early times, followers of Jesus from Nazareth, have had difference of oppinion in regard to questions of faith, and many arguments have happened. Many of these arguments were harsh.

This is why is said:"Dear JDUDAN54, Lord is risen.

I am sorry to be offensive towards you in this post, do not take it as an insult, because it is not".

Be in peace and may God bless you....
You are not going anywhere....



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NIKA



I'd be curious to see how you think unity could or should be achieved, Orthodoxos.
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« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2004, 11:26:00 PM »

I am the first one to attack the RC in many aspects of their practice, and not just in those considered heterodox. I love attacking RC due to a hope that this will cause a "knee jerk" reaction and make them read history more. The answers are in the history. They have always been there. My, sometimes harsh, attacks are there because I really love Rome as the foremost see of the holy pentarchy and it makes me very, very sad to see separation still present.

It is history (without going into Pneumatology now) that brought me to Orthodoxy. I was born in what you might consider an Orthodox country (although this is always relative) but I was not an Orthodox until many years after I left that country. Answers for all and to all are in the past.

Jack, I hold the oppinio of the more "softer" side within the Holy Church that states that doctrinal differences between Church and Rome are not the real thing but the context or the base for their presence. How could unity be achieved? I asked this my geron and his answer is the best I came accros. It goes like this:

"I have no idea, it is impossible, it is unreasonable. You can consider yourself stupid, even if you believe that it can happen. So is the second and glorious comming of the Saviour. God loves making impossible happen".

Jack,  I have no idea...

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« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2004, 09:29:47 PM »

What accord or unity may Good have with evil, or Truth with error? Yes, Our Lord wanted all to come to Him, but did He not also say, Many our called but few are chosen?

I wish I were not so tired and downstairs away from my books. Another day. Good night!
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« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2004, 02:54:09 PM »

Better to be of ONE MIND, ONE FAITH, and ONE CREED than to fall into compromise to satisfy the wants of the Vatican.  We are just fine the way we are, thank you.  I would be just as happy with the Vatican relinquishing its efforts for unity because, IMHO, it will only result in us sacrificing out faith by our well meaning hierarchs.
 
Anaxios, Anaxios, Anaxios.

JoeS  :-";"xx
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« Reply #73 on: November 24, 2004, 06:49:52 PM »

View of Papacy in years before 1054 by Russian Orthodox historian, Mikhail Posnov, now available in English at www. authorhouse.com.  Provides historical view of Papacy and view of Eastern Church for Roman Catholics.  Very helpful to understand History for many Russians who have been able to obtain this book which like famous Synodal Bible, published in Russian by Belgian Russian Catholics.
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« Reply #74 on: November 27, 2004, 11:31:46 AM »

I have been praying for unity every day among all true believers that are seeking God and His will. I believe He is answering this prayer as evidenced by the many new converts to the Holy Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2004, 12:05:51 AM »

Uh, it says that this section of the forum is dedicated to a conversation "in charity" about Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I ask you all to review your posts and see if they conform to this standard.
I am new here, but it seems to me that what we have here is not, for the most part, sincere dialogue, but the sort of partisan selective quotation-from-authority  arguments that characterize Fundamentalist, Latin Traditionalist, Islamic Jihadist, blah, blah, blah, forums, the tired sort of patting one another on the back substitute for thought that makes those who agree with one another already feel great but teach those outside the circle nothing.
Just my reaction...
-Daniel, longing for union, and for that matter, substantive conversation
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« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2004, 12:40:21 AM »

the Thread looks good.
what you talkin' about willis?
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« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2004, 01:08:44 AM »

Iconophile,

Pretty good deduction, but we humans are prone to reactionary behavior,  hopefully we will learn to harness it .

james
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« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2004, 10:16:30 PM »

what you talkin' about willis?  

  That quote dates you! Wink
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« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2004, 11:28:26 PM »

As I am a recent convert, I do a lot of reading--here is something I came across --perhaps someone with a bit more theological background can comment.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/prot_rc_heresy.aspx

This should be interesting.

John
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