Let this be a lesson in never ask a question that you do not want answered, at least truthfully.
http://www.devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2011/11/18/on-apologists-who-concede-nothing/#commentsWhat he has to say has been said by someone here (I'm just not in the mood nor have the time to shift through posts), so I'm not picking on him. He just has a good summary of the "points" that have to be responded too. Besides, not like he didn't bring it up:
I’ll be closing comments soon, since it seems to me (and from reading Isa’s comments over at OrthodoxChristianity.net forums) that this discussion will not make fruitful progress toward unity.
http://www.devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2011/11/14/who-do-the-orthodox-say-the-bishop-of-rome-is/comment-page-1/This, from this question he posted:
Who Do the Orthodox Say the Bishop of Rome Is?
We’ve had some great interactions, and I want to personally thank everyone who has weighed in on the comments of these posts, especially Steven Greydanus (Christianity’s preeminent film reviewer), Perry Robinson, Nick, Isa Almisry, Joe Heschmeyer, Nicholas, Hieromonk Ambrose (who gets the coolest name award, hands-down), Timothy Flanders, John Hogg, and Peter aka PMG.
Jesus asked the Apostles, “who do you say that I am?” I’d like to ask the same thing of my Orthodox friends. Not because I’m trying to trap you, but because I honestly don’t know.
Who do you say the bishop of Rome, Pope Benedict, is?
Is there an official Orthodox position on the bishop of Rome?
Is he a heretic? A schismatic? Both? An Anti-Christ?
IOW, our opinion
was asked. Not that we had to step in and correct incorrect thoughts on the Orthodox Church (though we had to do that too). Not that we were "trolling" to pick a fight. Our opinion
was asked, and we gave it.
I seem to have missed the "only replys that agree with the Vatican will be received" caveat. Was it in here?
Regarding the Dialogue We’ve Been Having
How often to Orthodox and Catholic laymen get together and hash out our differences, in a respectful and calm way? In my experience, not very. Which is why I’ve enjoyed these posts that have gotten such a positive interaction from people on both sides. My thought is, if we can’t talk about it, we’ll never get anywhere.
Further, I let the comments range all over. That’s the way I roll. Other sites—ones I greatly respect—moderate comments that aren’t focused on the particular topic at hand. That makes the posts and comment threads stay on topic and is quite helpful. But I feel that, especially in this discussion, having a discussion is more important than having a laser-focused one. Let’s just talk and argue and hopefully come out more knowledgeable and respecting of each other afterward.
My response:
First, the official Orthodox answer about the bishop of Rome is that the only bishop in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church with his see at Rome is Bp. Siluan Spam, by statute of the Romanian Patriarchate.
The only Metropolitan of Italy in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church has his see in Venice, Met. Gennadios, who, by agreement of all the bishops in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, serves as chairman of the Orthodox Episcopal Conference of Italy and Malta and as the chairman of its executive committee.
They are serving persuent to canon 2 of Constantinople I: “…the synod of each province will confine itself to the affairs of that particular province, in accordance with the regulations decreed in Nicaea. But the churches of God that are situated in territories belonging to barbarian nations must be administered in accordance with the customary practice of the Fathers.” St. Nicodemus interprets this (around the time the Orthodox jurisdiction of Italy was first being solidified) “As for the churches of God that are situated in the midst of barbarian nations, where there either were not enough bishops to make up a synod, or it was necessary for some scholarly bishop to go there in order to bolster up the Christians in their faith. These churches, I say, ought to be managed in accordance with the prevailing custom of the Fathers. To be more explicit, neighboring and abler bishops ought to go to them, in order to supply what is missing for a local synod. Which, though contrary to Canons, yet as a matter of necessity was allowed by the Council. Read Ap. cc. XXXIV and XXXV, and c. I of the Sixth.”
As they are not exercising jurisidction persuant to canon 6 of Nicea I, and are suffragans of others (i.e. the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Patriarch of Romania, etc.), the only pope in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church is “His Divine Beatitude Theodore II the Pope and Patriarch of the Great City of Alexandria, Libya, Pentapolis, Ethiopia, All Egypt and All Africa, Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Highpriest of Highpriests, the Thirteenth of the Apostles and Judge of the World/Universe,” who has no jurisdiction in Italy.
As for the successor of St. Peter, beyond every bishop, in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, that would be his 170th successor where the disciples were first called Christians (Acts 11:26), “the Most Reverend and Most Holy Father, His Beatitude Ignatius IV Patriarch of Antioch, the Great City of God, of Syria, Lebanon, Arabia, Cilicia, Mesopotamia and all the East; Father of Fathers, Shepherd of Shepherds, Master of Masters, and Thirteenth of the Holy Apostles, our Father and Chief Shepherd.”
As for your supreme pontiff in the Vatican, Benedict XVI, he is purged of the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church for heresy. As to the nature of his heresy, it may be summed up by the renunciations asked of any of his followers if they wish to confess the Orthodox Faith and be received into Catholic communion:
“Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Spirit, the declaration of our Saviour Christ himself: “who proceedeth from the Father”: doth not suffice; and that the addition, of man’s invention: “and from the Son”: is required?”
“Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that it doth not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ’s Body, that is to say, of the whole Church?”
“Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual power, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince: And that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor: And that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?”
“Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?”
“Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?”
“Dost thou renounce all the other doctrines of the Western Confession, both old and new, which are contrary to the Word of God, and to the true tradition of the Church, and to the decrees of the seven Ecumenical Councils?”
Along with the promises:
“Bishop. Dost thou believe and confess that power hath been given by our Saviour Christ unto the Orthodox-Catholic Church to bind and. to loose: and that whatsoever, by virtue of that power, is bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven?
Answer. I believe and confess it.
Bishop. Dost thou believe and confess that the Foundation, Head, and Great High Priest and Chief Shepherd of the Holy OrthodoxCatholic Church is our Lord Jesus Christ; and that Bishops, Pastors and Teachers are appointed by him to rule the Church; and that the Guide and Pilot of this Church is the Holy Spirit?
Answer. I believe and confess that this Church is the Bride of Christ, and that therein is true salvation, which was in the Ark of Noah at the Flood.
Bishop. Dost thou promise true obedience, unto thy life’s end, in guidance which is salutary unto the soul, to the Most Holy Synod; to the Most Holy Patriarch, the Equal-of-the-Apostles (or to the Ecclesiastical Authorities of the Autocephalous Provincial Church); and to the Bishop of this Diocese, as the true Pastors appointed by the Holy Spirit; and to the Priests ordained by them?
Answer. I promise it, with heart unfeigned.”
http://books.google.com/books?id=fBk9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA456&output=text#c_top
As to Pope Benedict XVI personally, many of us (including myself, my priest and many in my parish) were members of the Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club from way back. His abolishion of his patriarchate of the West was a mistake, especially not coupled with his ealier (pre-election) idea of promoting the local episcopal conferences.
To which the objection was raised:
It all sounds so polemical, so over the top. I mean, really? Are countries with predominant (or once-predominant) Catholic populations considered “barbarian lands” still?
And the profession of faith, much of that is false dichotomies and polemics as well. I dunno. This reminds me of the Orthodox laity, priests, and bishops calling the Pope the AntiChrist before his visit to Cyprus (which I linked to in the post).
which objections I answered
The office of reception of converts would of course be polemical. The convert is of course rejecting one thing to embrace another. Given the question, I wanted something a little more of an official answer than my own thoughts on the nature of what heresies Pope Benedict XVI of the Vatican might be guilty of.
For “barbarian” read “outside the normal system of things.” When the canon was written, the organization presupposed the context of the Roman Empire: there were no metropolitans in the Sassanid empire, for instance, given that it was not built on cities like Rome was. Right now, it would refer to areas not within the established patrimony of an autocephalous Holy Synod. Poland, for instance, which is overwhelmingly on the Vatican’s side of the issue, is not “barbarian lands” as it has a Holy Synod, its primate commemorated by his autocephalous peers, etc.
“Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church” again is to use official terminology:one of the major defects of Ravenna was the idea of defining Orthodox communion in terms of communion with Constantinople. That is true only as long as his peers commemorate him in their diptychs. Again, I wanted to give more official, less my own personal views.
As to alleged false dichonomies etc., they would have to have their own post.
to which last point I'll reply later, Lord willing.
In the meantime, after the comments were closed on the subject of this thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40904.0.htmlthere came this:
On Apologists Who Concede Nothing
We had a big Orthodox discussion this week and last here on the blog. Overall, I learned a lot, both about Orthodoxy but perhaps even more the arguments Orthodox apologists make. In the end, I had to take the unfortunate step of closing the comments and also warning two Orthodox apologists about their comments.
There is more, but at this point, what was I supposed to concede?
That his supreme pontiff Benedict XVI should be in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church?
That neither he, nor his followers who come to be received into communion with the bishops in the Orthodox diptcyhs of the Catholic Church be required to renounce any of the beliefs
That I should, per the dictates of his supreme pontiff, deny the proper and traditional title to my patriarch, the Pope of Alexandria, as the Vatican has-contrary to its usual way of dealing with its "sui juris" hierarchies-banned the use of the title by the Latin, Melkite and Coptic primates it has set up there (showing thereby how "sui juris" "of one's own right" the Vatican means-not very: its ecclesial community is too small for two popes (but it can manage 4 patriarchs of Antioch and three of Alexandria))?
That I should ignore Bishop Siluan at Rome, a bishop in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, and commune instead with the sovereign of the Vatican?
That I should take the Vatican's curia over the Orthodox Episcopal Conference of Italy and Malta? On that, I think I went into some detail:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.0.htmlSo, exactly was I to "concede"? I think Devin (the blogger) answered that, and I'll post that next, Lord willing. Let us say, it seems that dialogue means we Orthodox will be informed what the Vatican thinks important (like "
something special about the bishop Rome), and what it thinks is not important/"isnt' dogmatic" (like the filioque), and we will adjust accordingly. Sorry, dialogue isn't dictation.