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Author Topic: Help proving the Church to a Messianic  (Read 4584 times) Average Rating: 0
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Azul
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« on: November 15, 2011, 02:33:35 PM »

Hello , I need help of proving the Church from the Bible to a Messianic and refuting him.Please help me on this one Tongue.
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« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 02:46:20 PM »

Hello , I need help of proving the Church from the Bible to a Messianic and refuting him.Please help me on this one Tongue.
Acts 15 I'd start out with.
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 02:56:38 PM »

Hello , I need help of proving the Church from the Bible to a Messianic and refuting him.Please help me on this one Tongue.
Acts 15 I'd start out with.

Ok... But what i`m looking more deeply to is to show him how the Church is and works from the Bible... Ecclesiology based on biblical verses... Esspecially to prove that the Church is a physical reality and edifice... To prove the sacraments and the sacramental character of the church.. Also the antithesis between old law and new law.. And help me to refute their claims that Christianity was all Jewish in the first century.
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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 03:15:13 PM »

St Paul's Epistle to the Galatians is, IMO the best refutation of any claim of a particular "Jewishness" for the first century Church. Galatians 5:12 (especially in context with verse 11) is very strongly worded.
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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 10:25:47 PM »

Just ask what particular ecclesial communities are mentioned in the NT, and where the historical contiuation of those communities are today. Feel free to include the church in Jerusalem. It might get complicated if you get into the various scisms and how and why they came about, but the Messianic Judaism of today is a creation designed to fit a particular interpretation of scripture, not a historical continuation of what happened in the NT.
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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 10:54:20 PM »

St Paul's Epistle to the Galatians is, IMO the best refutation of any claim of a particular "Jewishness" for the first century Church. Galatians 5:12 (especially in context with verse 11) is very strongly worded.

Certain of this breed reject St. Paul.
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 11:22:16 PM »

St Paul's Epistle to the Galatians is, IMO the best refutation of any claim of a particular "Jewishness" for the first century Church. Galatians 5:12 (especially in context with verse 11) is very strongly worded.

Certain of this breed reject St. Paul.

That's interesting. Given that so many of Paul's letters made it into the New Testament, how could those who reject him call themselves NT Christians in the first place?
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 11:58:51 PM »

Hello , I need help of proving the Church from the Bible to a Messianic and refuting him.Please help me on this one Tongue.

Azul, you may not want to hear from me, because I'm a Messianic; so, I'll understand if I'm ignored. Still, I'm curious to know about the Messianic you're dealing with. Not all of us Messianics are alike. Not all of us are anti-church. What's your Messianic been saying?--if you don't mind telling me.
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 12:16:51 AM »

Certain of this breed reject St. Paul.

That's interesting. Given that so many of Paul's letters made it into the New Testament, how could those who reject him call themselves NT Christians in the first place?

I don't think they necessarily view themselves as particularly tied to the New Testament.  They certainly seem to throw out a whole lot of it, while dressing up and selecting whatever stuff they find to be nifty.

No offense to you, mathetes.  I understand that it isn't a homogenous movement, but this is my understanding of the majority.
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 12:15:29 PM »

...the Messianic Judaism of today is a creation designed to fit a particular interpretation of scripture, not a historical continuation of what happened in the NT.

Bingo. 
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 02:24:08 PM »

St Paul's Epistle to the Galatians is, IMO the best refutation of any claim of a particular "Jewishness" for the first century Church. Galatians 5:12 (especially in context with verse 11) is very strongly worded.

Certain of this breed reject St. Paul.

Then the OP's request is somewhat futile. If St Paul is rejected then St Luke must be rejected as well (There goes 1/4 of the Gospel and the Book of Acts), which deprives one completely of the primary Biblical historical information. We can also discount St Peter's Epistles in general (after all, he highly recommends the writings of St Paul). St John had very bad things to say about the Jews, so there go his writings as well (save the Book of Revelation, I'm sure they'll want to keep that one, what with all the references to Israel). St Mark was a fellow traveler with St Paul as well, so there goes that Gospel. That leaves us with the Gospel of Matthew and the Epistles of Sts James and Jude. St James epistle is a favorite of Seventh Day Adventists, who hold to many of the same positions as the Messianic. St Jude's is a blurb, concerned mainly with rejecting heresy (though his references of extra-Judaism Jewish texts might take him out of the running as well), and doesn't speak to the whole Jew/Gentile thing at all.

The only thing I can think of would be the Gospel of Matthew, where Christ gives the Apostles authority to define practice, bind, and loose, and work from there.
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2011, 02:31:52 PM »

I would recommend these two books:

Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith [Paperback] by Father Peter Gilquist
http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Orthodox-Journey-Ancient-Christian/dp/0962271330/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321468200&sr=1-1

and

Surprised by Christ: My Journey from Judaism to Orthodox Christianity [Paperback] by Father James Bernstein
http://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Christ-Journey-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/1888212950/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321468252&sr=1-1




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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 11:21:11 PM »

Certain of this breed reject St. Paul.

That's interesting. Given that so many of Paul's letters made it into the New Testament, how could those who reject him call themselves NT Christians in the first place?

I don't think they necessarily view themselves as particularly tied to the New Testament.  They certainly seem to throw out a whole lot of it, while dressing up and selecting whatever stuff they find to be nifty.

No offense to you, mathetes.  I understand that it isn't a homogenous movement, but this is my understanding of the majority.

Many Messianics consider "New Testament" a misnomer for B'rit Chadashah, which can mean either "New Covenant" or "Renewed Covenant." It would be helpful to know what meaning Azul's Messianic friend holds to. Messianics who think the covenant was merely renewed tend to be legalistic, but Messianics who believe in the New Covenant fully embrace the apostle Paul, even if they call him Sha'ul.  Wink

Scripture clearly foretold a covenant that was going to be new rather than like the one that had been broken (Hebrews 8:8-12).
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 11:29:55 PM »

Hello , I need help of proving the Church from the Bible to a Messianic and refuting him.Please help me on this one Tongue.

I have had a lot of dealing with Messianic believers and my opinion is that unless he at least senses some flaw in his present beliefs, he will not listen to *proof* of the Church in any way other than the way he sees it. Likely you will find yourself in an endless loop of argument. Short of wasting time and mental energy, I'm not sure what you will gain from trying.
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2011, 11:49:24 PM »

Hello , I need help of proving the Church from the Bible to a Messianic and refuting him.Please help me on this one Tongue.

I have had a lot of dealing with Messianic believers and my opinion is that unless he at least senses some flaw in his present beliefs, he will not listen to *proof* of the Church in any way other than the way he sees it. Likely you will find yourself in an endless loop of argument. Short of wasting time and mental energy, I'm not sure what you will gain from trying.

+1

Is this person asking for information on Orthodoxy? Are they interested in Orthodoxy?
If the answer is NO, then rather than argue needlessly, it is better to set a good example and shower them with Christian love.
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2011, 11:55:07 PM »

^ +1

Been there, done that on CF aeons ago.
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2011, 11:24:27 AM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2011, 11:47:05 AM »

Ok... But what i`m looking more deeply to is to show him how the Church is and works from the Bible... Ecclesiology based on biblical verses... Esspecially to prove that the Church is a physical reality and edifice... To prove the sacraments and the sacramental character of the church.. Also the antithesis between old law and new law.. And help me to refute their claims that Christianity was all Jewish in the first century.
this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.
I can't figure out why you're accepting his premise that everything must be proven from the Bible. What you're wanting to show (as listed in the first quote above) is what the Church has accepted for two thousand years. It's up to him to prove that these things are contrary to the Scriptures.
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« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2011, 11:47:32 AM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.

Where's the Church that was established 2,000 years ago? Not what you think looks like what you read about in the NT, but the NT itself as it has exosted throughout history. Like I said, his best refutation is that we have multiple communions of churches (EO, OO, RC, ACE) that all trace their history back to the apostles through the laying on of hands, but his church has nothing to stand on because his church has no 2,000 year history. We have a bishop of Jerusalem, of Athens, of Antioch. There is a bishop of Rome (unfortunately he's not one of ours, but was for a thousand years). These are all local churches that are living historical continuations of the local churches mentioned in the NT. Orthodoxy is what the Church is, Messianic Judaism is an idea of what someone thinks it should look like based on an (incorrect) interpretation of scripture.

Don't even discuss theology, just point to any local church community in the NT and ask "where are they now?", it's that simple.
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« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2011, 02:02:57 PM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.

Not good. Never compromise your Holy Faith.
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2011, 02:27:34 PM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2011, 03:42:50 PM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.

Where's the Church that was established 2,000 years ago? Not what you think looks like what you read about in the NT, but the NT itself as it has exosted throughout history. Like I said, his best refutation is that we have multiple communions of churches (EO, OO, RC, ACE) that all trace their history back to the apostles through the laying on of hands, but his church has nothing to stand on because his church has no 2,000 year history. We have a bishop of Jerusalem, of Athens, of Antioch. There is a bishop of Rome (unfortunately he's not one of ours, but was for a thousand years). These are all local churches that are living historical continuations of the local churches mentioned in the NT. Orthodoxy is what the Church is, Messianic Judaism is an idea of what someone thinks it should look like based on an (incorrect) interpretation of scripture.

Don't even discuss theology, just point to any local church community in the NT and ask "where are they now?", it's that simple.

I kinda made some affirmations that he challenged me to explain through the Bible.... I have verses but i need more.... This is what I wrote :

The Law of Christ, also know as the Law of faith or Law of Faith of Christ is Christ's doctrine ... The Orthodox faith... What he commended.. The Seven Sacraments : Baptism in the Name of the Holy Trinity ; Christmation ; Confession ; Eucharist ; Marriage ; Cheirotonia ; Healing and faith and obedience in the Body of the Church... These are his commandments in the Gospel... His doctrine is his way of being, summed in the cross.... it starts with HUMILITY HUMILITY HUMILITY HUMILITY, SACRIFICE,peace , honesty, non-violence , forgiveness, no jugdement, discernment... These are all thought in the Church, his mystical body... The morality of Christ... The Cross... which belongs to the Church... On short the Law of Christ is the Law of the Church... The Law was entrusted, given and developed in the Church which is Christ's edifying body on earth... The hospital for the sick... Everyone who denies the dogma of the Church is breaking the law... Everyone who dismisess the sacraments is breaking the law... everyone who distorts Christ's morality is lawless... This is the most important... The morality of Christ which are all of the above... everyone who is not in Christ's way of being, a Christ himself and professes to be he is LAWLESS... The Messianics fail at all three..
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2011, 03:51:52 PM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.

Not good. Never compromise your Holy Faith.

If my faith is holy than there is no compromise... This guy will probably not convert, but this is just a way to give him something to think about....

I need more verses on faith in the NT , on listening to the Church, on the physical reality of the Church and of Church authority... I have started to prepare something, but i don`t have much time and resources, that is why i requested your help...
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2011, 03:57:24 PM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.

Where's the Church that was established 2,000 years ago? Not what you think looks like what you read about in the NT, but the NT itself as it has exosted throughout history. Like I said, his best refutation is that we have multiple communions of churches (EO, OO, RC, ACE) that all trace their history back to the apostles through the laying on of hands, but his church has nothing to stand on because his church has no 2,000 year history. We have a bishop of Jerusalem, of Athens, of Antioch. There is a bishop of Rome (unfortunately he's not one of ours, but was for a thousand years).
We have one again in Rome

These are all local churches that are living historical continuations of the local churches mentioned in the NT. Orthodoxy is what the Church is, Messianic Judaism is an idea of what someone thinks it should look like based on an (incorrect) interpretation of scripture.

Don't even discuss theology, just point to any local church community in the NT and ask "where are they now?", it's that simple.
Indeed.
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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2011, 04:06:32 PM »

St Paul's Epistle to the Galatians is, IMO the best refutation of any claim of a particular "Jewishness" for the first century Church. Galatians 5:12 (especially in context with verse 11) is very strongly worded.

Certain of this breed reject St. Paul.

Then the OP's request is somewhat futile. If St Paul is rejected then St Luke must be rejected as well (There goes 1/4 of the Gospel and the Book of Acts), which deprives one completely of the primary Biblical historical information. We can also discount St Peter's Epistles in general (after all, he highly recommends the writings of St Paul). St John had very bad things to say about the Jews, so there go his writings as well (save the Book of Revelation, I'm sure they'll want to keep that one, what with all the references to Israel). St Mark was a fellow traveler with St Paul as well, so there goes that Gospel. That leaves us with the Gospel of Matthew and the Epistles of Sts James and Jude. St James epistle is a favorite of Seventh Day Adventists, who hold to many of the same positions as the Messianic. St Jude's is a blurb, concerned mainly with rejecting heresy (though his references of extra-Judaism Jewish texts might take him out of the running as well), and doesn't speak to the whole Jew/Gentile thing at all.

The only thing I can think of would be the Gospel of Matthew, where Christ gives the Apostles authority to define practice, bind, and loose, and work from there.
I was just thinking about this in reference to history (in the abstract):the Church is founded on Christ's ministry, contained in the Gospels.  However, the first writings of the Church are not based on the Gospels, as they were not yet written, St. Paul's epistles predate them.  The epistles are written to the Churches St. Paul founded on Christ.  He founded (in part at least) Antioch, which produced the Gospel of Matthew, and Rome, which produced the Gospel of Mark.  St. Luke was brought into the Church by St. Paul.  St. John owes nothing to these Gospels or Epistles, being one of the original Apostles and an eyewitness, but he draws on them and presupposes them.

Any so called "Messianic" who rejects St. Paul therefore is pretty much restricted to the Epistles of James and Jude.  Once again showing that Protestants depend on us for their canon.
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« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2011, 04:11:37 PM »

Ok... But what i`m looking more deeply to is to show him how the Church is and works from the Bible... Ecclesiology based on biblical verses... Esspecially to prove that the Church is a physical reality and edifice... To prove the sacraments and the sacramental character of the church.. Also the antithesis between old law and new law.. And help me to refute their claims that Christianity was all Jewish in the first century.
this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.
I can't figure out why you're accepting his premise that everything must be proven from the Bible. What you're wanting to show (as listed in the first quote above) is what the Church has accepted for two thousand years. It's up to him to prove that these things are contrary to the Scriptures.
Yes, ask him first to prove sola scriptura from the Bible.  Christ did not follow it (He participated in the synagogue service, which has no scriptural warrant for itself in the OT).
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« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2011, 04:19:09 PM »

Messianic Judaism, largely, finds it's historicity in Protestantism, with the trappings of medieval rabbinic Judaism, a defunct religion that lacks the means by which to propitiate sin (lack of the temple).

Orthodox Christianity finds it's historicity in Christ Himself through the Apostles and maintains the sacrifices of the Old Covenant as fulfilled by the sacrifice of Christ and entered into at each Liturgy. Furthermore, the Scriptures are read and praise is offered to God during the Liturgy of the Word prior to the Eucharistic offering. It is the historic continuance of Old Testament Judaism, both of the Temple variety and the synagogue variety.

Messianic Judaism being based on the Jewish trappings of the Middle Ages means they also lack the continuance of the Temple sacrifices and are defunct. What's worse is that their traditions are based off of those Jews who rejected the Christ, and therefore are in many ways like those who St. Paul describes as olive branches broken from the tree (Romans 11:17) and who our Lord Himself described as "withered" (John 15).

In short, Orthodox Christianity is the sacramental and historical continuance of the religion of the Old Testament. Messianic Judaism, on the other hand, is a Protestant anachronism based off of medieval Judaism that is cut off from the Temple, unable to offer sacrifices, and has rejected the Christ.

Expound on that with him.
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2011, 06:00:22 PM »

Ok , so i started the thread , here it is : http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?76424-Superseding-Ben-David

Now i`m going to bed i`m tired 12:00 AM here.
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2011, 10:13:53 PM »

We have one again in Rome

I was talking about the historical continuation of the local church in the city of Rome mentioned in the NT.
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2011, 10:22:18 PM »

Ok , so i started the thread , here it is : http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?76424-Superseding-Ben-David

Now i`m going to bed i`m tired 12:00 AM here.

I think he thinks you're Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2011, 12:16:26 AM »

I have often found unless they are calm and willing to dialogue (not just blatently assert their position) nothing will help. But I think some key points to bring up would be of course history, though they might just tend to ignore the history I think It must be begged of the messianic (depending on the type, some might be ebionites others might just be protestants with a Jewish flare) where are they in history? Where are their roots? Often they will go to talmudic or Jewish writers who did not accept Christ and still consider their exegesis on the Old testament authoritative. So where are they in history? I think someone before said it best when they are just an offshoot of protestantism. Also what books regarding the Messiah they believe are the legitimate books? The 27 NT canon? Agreed upon by non ethnic Jews whom were Orthodox in their theology? Or just certain books of the NEw testament rejecting Paul? Why Paul was accepted by the Apostles what right to we have to Reject him?

But ultimately while these convince myself of the falsehood of messianicism or Judaising heresy, I think ultimately what messianics will respond to is scripture, you have to demonstrate their interpretation of scripture is wrong or can at least be called into question then they might ask who has the authority to interpret scripture? Is it the New testament which interprets the Old as Saint Ignatius might have put it? Or is it the New in light of the Old? Scripture is the only thing that may convince any messianic or protestant and despite the logical fallacies inherent in Sola scriptura that most Christians can see they will ultimately say "God's word says it, why should I believe them?"

Get them to realise it is their own interpretation of scripture instead of scripture itself.
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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2011, 01:04:07 AM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.
NEVER make a promise you have no intent of keeping.
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2011, 02:02:42 AM »

We have one again in Rome

I was talking about the historical continuation of the local church in the city of Rome mentioned in the NT.
You saying the Romanians aren't Roman?
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2011, 02:15:33 AM »

Ok , so i started the thread , here it is : http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?76424-Superseding-Ben-David

Now i`m going to bed i`m tired 12:00 AM here.
Quote
Quote
Christ established the Church :

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He chose the Apostles and gave them power :

I  agree with that so why should supersede me? It just that I cannot find the word 'Church" in there....In the Greek I mean....
he obviously can't read Greek.
κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
And the ancient Syriac, if he wants someting Aramaicish;
ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ ܟܐܦܐ ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ ܟܐܦܐ ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠ
ܥܕܬܝ
ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ

Tell him that he demonstrably does not know what he is talking about, being unable to find the word 'Church' when the word is there, that you cannot give him that "meat" he claims he is waiting for, as he can't even digest milk.
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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2011, 02:46:17 AM »

Ok , so i started the thread , here it is : http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?76424-Superseding-Ben-David

Now i`m going to bed i`m tired 12:00 AM here.
Quote
Quote
Christ established the Church :

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He chose the Apostles and gave them power :

I  agree with that so why should supersede me? It just that I cannot find the word 'Church" in there....In the Greek I mean....
he obviously can't read Greek.
κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
And the ancient Syriac, if he wants someting Aramaicish;
ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ ܟܐܦܐ ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ ܟܐܦܐ ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠ
ܥܕܬܝ
ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ

Tell him that he demonstrably does not know what he is talking about, being unable to find the word 'Church' when the word is there, that you cannot give him that "meat" he claims he is waiting for, as he can't even digest milk.

Oh my goodness!!
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« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2011, 12:22:30 PM »

Ok , so i started the thread , here it is : http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?76424-Superseding-Ben-David

Now i`m going to bed i`m tired 12:00 AM here.
Quote
Quote
Christ established the Church :

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He chose the Apostles and gave them power :

I  agree with that so why should supersede me? It just that I cannot find the word 'Church" in there....In the Greek I mean....
he obviously can't read Greek.
κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
And the ancient Syriac, if he wants someting Aramaicish;
ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ ܟܐܦܐ ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ ܟܐܦܐ ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠ
ܥܕܬܝ
ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ

Tell him that he demonstrably does not know what he is talking about, being unable to find the word 'Church' when the word is there, that you cannot give him that "meat" he claims he is waiting for, as he can't even digest milk.

Can you assist me in there ? Cheesy And everyone else? Let's make the sucker cry! Tongue
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« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2011, 12:24:05 PM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.
NEVER make a promise you have no intent of keeping.

I`m not gonna lose.. I know my game better than he knows his...
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« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2011, 01:04:48 PM »

Ok , so i started the thread , here it is : http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?76424-Superseding-Ben-David

Now i`m going to bed i`m tired 12:00 AM here.
Quote
Quote
Christ established the Church :

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He chose the Apostles and gave them power :

I  agree with that so why should supersede me? It just that I cannot find the word 'Church" in there....In the Greek I mean....
he obviously can't read Greek.
κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
And the ancient Syriac, if he wants someting Aramaicish;
ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ ܟܐܦܐ ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ ܟܐܦܐ ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠ
ܥܕܬܝ
ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ

Tell him that he demonstrably does not know what he is talking about, being unable to find the word 'Church' when the word is there, that you cannot give him that "meat" he claims he is waiting for, as he can't even digest milk.

Can you assist me in there ? Cheesy And everyone else? Let's make the sucker cry! Tongue
The boldface in Greek is the word "Church" that he cannot find, as is the word in the Syriac set off by itself in the second paragraph (It is in bold too, but the font doesn't show it very well).  If he can't find the word "Church" there, in Greek, Syriac or even English, he is literally as well as metaphorically blind.

I have no interest in making him cry, unless the Spirit gives him tears of repentance.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2011, 01:13:10 PM »

Quote
Except that by the time your OT Church came around, the disciples were dead. the did not have authority on earth anymore. Next?
So the premise others could receive the Holy Spirit equal to the Twelve is accepted by Peter.

The Spirit received in Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismatiion is equal to any baptism or chrismation, e.g.
Of the Times Most Suitable for Baptism.

The Passover [i.e. Pascha] affords a more than usually solemn day for baptism; when, withal, the Lord’s passion, in which we are baptized, was completed. Nor will it be incongruous to interpret figuratively the fact that, when the Lord was about to celebrate the last Passover, He said to the disciples who were sent to make preparation, “Ye will meet a man bearing water.” (Mark xiv. 13; Luke xxii. 10)  He points out the place for celebrating the Passover by the sign of water. After that, Pentecost is a most joyous space [He means the whole fifty days from the Paschal Feast till Pentecost, including the latter. Bunsen Hippol. III. 18.] for conferring baptisms; wherein, too, the resurrection of the Lord was repeatedly proved [Frequentata, i.e. by His frequent appearance. See Acts i. 3, δι᾽ ἡμερῶν τεσσαράκοντα ὀπτανόμενος αὐτοῖς] among the disciples, and the hope of the advent of the Lord indirectly pointed to, in that, at that time, when He had been received back into the heavens, the angels  [Comp. Acts i. 10 and Luke ix. 30: in each place St. Luke says, ἄνδρες δύο: as also in xxiv. 4 of his Gospel] told the apostles that “He would so come, as He had withal ascended into the heavens;” [Acts i. 10, 11; but it is οὐρανόν throughout in the Greek] at Pentecost, of course. But, moreover, when Jeremiah says, “And I will gather them together from the extremities of the land in the feast-day,” he signifies the day of the Passover and of Pentecost, which is properly a “feast-day.” Jer. xxxi. 8, xxxviii. 8 in LXX., where ἐν ἑορτῇ φασέκ is found.] However, every day is the Lord’s; every hour, every time, is apt for baptism: if there is a difference in the solemnity, distinction there is none in the grace.

The last clause struck me.

Tertullian "On Baptism"
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.vi.iii.xix.html
But that has nothing to do with ordained priesthood nor the Apostleship whence it comes. We have dealt with that before:
The text says all 120 were there (not counting women of course), and all received the gifts of tongues = more than 12.

If you harkened to the Bible, and not your Pentacostal friends, you would know that gift of tongues =/= priesthood.

AND the idea only the 12 were priests, is clearly wrong, every believer is a king and priest.

The Twelve who Christ picked and upon whom the Holy Spirit descended has passed that gift down-along with their Traditions-in the laying on of their hands.

No Apostle's hand has been near your head.

So you are in no position to find anything wrong or right.  If I want to find out if the meat is good, I'll ask somebody eating a proper diet not someone who is spitting up milk.

I Cor. 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.

But then you do not believe the Scirptures.

We will  rise in the first resurrection:So every born again believer is a priest and king...not just the apostles.
OK, Korah.

But you do not believe the Scpritures: Heb. 5:4 no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.

But since you reject the Scriptures you take that honor to yourself.
A few things I should have added:
I had thought of starting a thread on Perssonism's teaching on sola scriptura, but decided the thread "Sola Scriptura - A Diversion From the True Word of God" would be an appropriate place to taste test, to spew out as poison, Perssonism's flavor of Sola Scriptura.

However, St. Peter promises in his second epistle (1:12-15):
"12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance"
as he had already provided for, as he states his first epistle (btw, the order is the order the Church put them in, not chronological) 5:1-2:
"The presbyters which are among you I exhort, who am also an presbyter, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, serving as bishops, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind."

(I Peter 2:)21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.



Quote
As St. Paul had provided, as spokesmen of the Apostles, handing the Church to their successors, the bishop-presbyters Acts 20:
16For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost. 17And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the presbyters of the church. 18And when they were come to him, he said unto them...25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more [not, in time, the face of any of the Apostles], 28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified...35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."

[quoting a verse of the Gospel not in the Gospels. Of course, when St. Paul said this, SS. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John hadn't written a verse yet that has come down to us].

Acts 14: 20Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe. 21And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 23And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

24And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia. 25And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia: 26And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. 27And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. 28And there they abode long time with the disciples.

Quote
Titus 1:5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain presbyters in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [i.e. those whose hearts are covered by the veil of Moses] 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not...13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."
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« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2011, 01:37:08 PM »

Ok , so i started the thread , here it is : http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?76424-Superseding-Ben-David

Now i`m going to bed i`m tired 12:00 AM here.
Quote
Quote
Christ established the Church :

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He chose the Apostles and gave them power :

I  agree with that so why should supersede me? It just that I cannot find the word 'Church" in there....In the Greek I mean....
he obviously can't read Greek.
κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
And the ancient Syriac, if he wants someting Aramaicish;
ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ ܟܐܦܐ ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ ܟܐܦܐ ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠ
ܥܕܬܝ
ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ

Tell him that he demonstrably does not know what he is talking about, being unable to find the word 'Church' when the word is there, that you cannot give him that "meat" he claims he is waiting for, as he can't even digest milk.

Can you assist me in there ? Cheesy And everyone else? Let's make the sucker cry! Tongue
The boldface in Greek is the word "Church" that he cannot find, as is the word in the Syriac set off by itself in the second paragraph (It is in bold too, but the font doesn't show it very well).  If he can't find the word "Church" there, in Greek, Syriac or even English, he is literally as well as metaphorically blind.

I have no interest in making him cry, unless the Spirit gives him tears of repentance.

tears of repentance of course Smiley ...
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« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2011, 01:39:40 PM »

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Except that by the time your OT Church came around, the disciples were dead. the did not have authority on earth anymore. Next?
So the premise others could receive the Holy Spirit equal to the Twelve is accepted by Peter.

The Spirit received in Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismatiion is equal to any baptism or chrismation, e.g.
Of the Times Most Suitable for Baptism.

The Passover [i.e. Pascha] affords a more than usually solemn day for baptism; when, withal, the Lord’s passion, in which we are baptized, was completed. Nor will it be incongruous to interpret figuratively the fact that, when the Lord was about to celebrate the last Passover, He said to the disciples who were sent to make preparation, “Ye will meet a man bearing water.” (Mark xiv. 13; Luke xxii. 10)  He points out the place for celebrating the Passover by the sign of water. After that, Pentecost is a most joyous space [He means the whole fifty days from the Paschal Feast till Pentecost, including the latter. Bunsen Hippol. III. 18.] for conferring baptisms; wherein, too, the resurrection of the Lord was repeatedly proved [Frequentata, i.e. by His frequent appearance. See Acts i. 3, δι᾽ ἡμερῶν τεσσαράκοντα ὀπτανόμενος αὐτοῖς] among the disciples, and the hope of the advent of the Lord indirectly pointed to, in that, at that time, when He had been received back into the heavens, the angels  [Comp. Acts i. 10 and Luke ix. 30: in each place St. Luke says, ἄνδρες δύο: as also in xxiv. 4 of his Gospel] told the apostles that “He would so come, as He had withal ascended into the heavens;” [Acts i. 10, 11; but it is οὐρανόν throughout in the Greek] at Pentecost, of course. But, moreover, when Jeremiah says, “And I will gather them together from the extremities of the land in the feast-day,” he signifies the day of the Passover and of Pentecost, which is properly a “feast-day.” Jer. xxxi. 8, xxxviii. 8 in LXX., where ἐν ἑορτῇ φασέκ is found.] However, every day is the Lord’s; every hour, every time, is apt for baptism: if there is a difference in the solemnity, distinction there is none in the grace.

The last clause struck me.

Tertullian "On Baptism"
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.vi.iii.xix.html
But that has nothing to do with ordained priesthood nor the Apostleship whence it comes. We have dealt with that before:
The text says all 120 were there (not counting women of course), and all received the gifts of tongues = more than 12.

If you harkened to the Bible, and not your Pentacostal friends, you would know that gift of tongues =/= priesthood.

AND the idea only the 12 were priests, is clearly wrong, every believer is a king and priest.

The Twelve who Christ picked and upon whom the Holy Spirit descended has passed that gift down-along with their Traditions-in the laying on of their hands.

No Apostle's hand has been near your head.

So you are in no position to find anything wrong or right.  If I want to find out if the meat is good, I'll ask somebody eating a proper diet not someone who is spitting up milk.

I Cor. 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.

But then you do not believe the Scirptures.

We will  rise in the first resurrection:So every born again believer is a priest and king...not just the apostles.
OK, Korah.

But you do not believe the Scpritures: Heb. 5:4 no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.

But since you reject the Scriptures you take that honor to yourself.
A few things I should have added:
I had thought of starting a thread on Perssonism's teaching on sola scriptura, but decided the thread "Sola Scriptura - A Diversion From the True Word of God" would be an appropriate place to taste test, to spew out as poison, Perssonism's flavor of Sola Scriptura.

However, St. Peter promises in his second epistle (1:12-15):
"12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance"
as he had already provided for, as he states his first epistle (btw, the order is the order the Church put them in, not chronological) 5:1-2:
"The presbyters which are among you I exhort, who am also an presbyter, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, serving as bishops, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind."

(I Peter 2:)21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.



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As St. Paul had provided, as spokesmen of the Apostles, handing the Church to their successors, the bishop-presbyters Acts 20:
16For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost. 17And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the presbyters of the church. 18And when they were come to him, he said unto them...25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more [not, in time, the face of any of the Apostles], 28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified...35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."

[quoting a verse of the Gospel not in the Gospels. Of course, when St. Paul said this, SS. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John hadn't written a verse yet that has come down to us].

Acts 14: 20Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe. 21And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 23And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

24And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia. 25And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia: 26And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. 27And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. 28And there they abode long time with the disciples.

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Titus 1:5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain presbyters in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [i.e. those whose hearts are covered by the veil of Moses] 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not...13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

need more torque on the priesthood and apostolic succession.
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« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2011, 01:49:46 PM »

need more torque on the priesthood and apostolic succession.
Got a number of rods in the fire right now, but in the meantime
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28972.msg481480/topicseen.html#msg481480
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« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2011, 02:18:37 AM »

this guy does not reject Paul... i don`t know what breed he is... he is a hebrew btw... anyway i kind am on a merge to make a deal with him... if i can proove the church from the bible and he can`t refute it than he will become and Orthodox, if not i have to become a Messianic.
NEVER make a promise you have no intent of keeping.

I`m not gonna lose.. I know my game better than he knows his...
That's not my point, though.
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« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2011, 03:03:24 AM »

From the guy's comments, looks like you will get nowhere. And really, it's understandable. You are both coming from different mindsets. A poster can't just pull out the one-liner "The EO was the only Church until whenever" out of the air and expect him to understand the historical situation from that.

This is a huge topic, and unless he is open to doing the investigation himself to discover that the Church was united under an authority and not just separate groups of Christians in house-churches, reading their bibles and being "led by the Spirit", he will just continue with the flippancy.

You need to remember that all he knows is what he has experienced. In throwing stuff at him that he hasn't really sought to know is not only a waste of time, it is tempting him to sin with increasingly aggressive insults. Go easy and pray for him. Perhaps you need to use your zeal in a different way. You don't need to prove anything is *right*. Pray that the Holy Spirit will do that work. Only with coaxing and love will he ever be interested to hear what you have to say. At the moment, he isn't getting it.   

And PtA is right; you shouldn't make promises you don't intend to keep.
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« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2011, 05:24:27 AM »

Help me respond to this ialmsry "Is this the same word that is mentioned in Acts 19"27?....Opps!!...Nice church...."
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