OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 28, 2014, 09:22:25 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: How is the Holy Spirit in the Chrism?  (Read 1272 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,449



« on: November 12, 2011, 11:15:53 AM »

I recall Fr. Ambrose recalling how someone in Serbia used to remark how two Persons of the Holy Trinity were on the altar:the Son in the reserved Eucharist, and the Spirit in the chrism.  I just got to wondering (while I'm starting on my first coffee), how exactly is the Spirit in the chrism, and thought it might be the same way that Nestorius claimed the Son was in Christ.  Any thoughts?

I'm also trying to remember if the chrism used at consecrating altars/Churches is the same as the chrism used in chrismation.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2011, 11:47:58 AM »

IIRC, the same chrism used for people is used for altars and churches.

And...I'm not sure I would say the Holy Spirit is "in" the chrism in the same way the Son is in the Eucharist. The chrism is holy and carries with its anointing the "seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit" but such authority is given in truth only to the Apostles and their successor bishops. Originally, we see in the Book of Acts that for a community to be fully integrated into the Church by the reception of the Holy Spirit, at least one of the Apostles had to go and lay hands on them directly.

Of course, this devolved to bishops later on and chrism was used very early as well (I believe Tradition holds that the chrism itself is nearly 2,000 years old, since some of the remaining chrism is poured into new chrism each time it is made). In the Western church, this has always remained the privilege of the bishop. To this day, when the Catholic Church does a confirmation, the bishop must come to the parish and perform the sacrament, the priests may not. For some reason, the East didn't see a problem with devolving this duty down to the priests, and so now priest chrismate, but of course still use the chrism which is maintained and handed out by the bishop.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,449



« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2011, 01:16:26 PM »

And...I'm not sure I would say the Holy Spirit is "in" the chrism in the same way the Son is in the Eucharist.
I know He is not.  The Spirit, for instance, did not descend as True God and True Dove at the Jordan.  He is, however, present in the chrism in a way He is not, for instance, in blessed oil (as opposed to consecrated oil) or the oil of annointing of the sick (btw, are they same?).

I was just thinking about how the Nestorian idea of parsopic union is of course inadequate to describe the hypostatic union, but it might adequately describe the Spirit in the Chrism.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,835


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2011, 02:12:09 PM »

And...I'm not sure I would say the Holy Spirit is "in" the chrism in the same way the Son is in the Eucharist.
I know He is not.  The Spirit, for instance, did not descend as True God and True Dove at the Jordan.  He is, however, present in the chrism in a way He is not, for instance, in blessed oil (as opposed to consecrated oil) or the oil of annointing of the sick (btw, are they same?).

I was just thinking about how the Nestorian idea of parsopic union is of course inadequate to describe the hypostatic union, but it might adequately describe the Spirit in the Chrism.
Well, the purpose of the Consecrated oil is to transmit the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the purpose of the blessed oil is to invoke the Holy Spirit upon something, correct? Perhaps the only difference that we mortals can understand is in the purpose, not the details of the union.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 02:12:32 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2011, 02:28:59 PM »

And...I'm not sure I would say the Holy Spirit is "in" the chrism in the same way the Son is in the Eucharist.

The Eucharist IS (not contains) the Body and Blood of Christ, the chrism itself is not the Holy Spirit.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2011, 02:46:55 PM »

I think it's more of a matter of what the chrism is blessed by the bishop to be used for than anything else.

I don't know the prayers for blessing chrism, maybe they might have the answer to your question if anyone knows where they can be found.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2011, 04:13:14 PM »

The belief almost certainly comes from the teaching of Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, from his Catechetical Lectures...

"Beware of supposing this to be plain ointment.  For as the Bread of the Eucharist, after the invocation of the Holy Spirit, is mere bread no longer but the Body of Christ, so also this holy ointment is no more simple ointment, nor (so to say) common, after invocation, but it is Christ’s gift of grace, and, by the advent of the Holy Spirit, is made fit to impart His Divine Nature."

« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 04:15:05 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2011, 04:33:02 PM »


... For as the Bread of the Eucharist, after the invocation of the Holy Spirit, is mere bread no longer but the Body of Christ,



interesting that here, with Saint Cyril writing about 360 AD, he speaks of the invocation of the Spirit (the Epiclesis) bringing about the change in the Bread of the Eucharist.
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2011, 06:52:12 PM »

I recall Fr. Ambrose recalling how someone in Serbia used to remark how two Persons of the Holy Trinity were on the altar:the Son in the reserved Eucharist, and the Spirit in the chrism.  I just got to wondering (while I'm starting on my first coffee), how exactly is the Spirit in the chrism, and thought it might be the same way that Nestorius claimed the Son was in Christ.  Any thoughts?

I'm also trying to remember if the chrism used at consecrating altars/Churches is the same as the chrism used in chrismation.

I do not have anything close to an answer to your question Isa, but I did want to remark that you have rather deep thoughts for someone who's starting on their first coffee of the day! I'm barely functional before my first sip of caffeine in the morning! lol  laugh Grin
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,459



« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2011, 08:32:19 PM »


... For as the Bread of the Eucharist, after the invocation of the Holy Spirit, is mere bread no longer but the Body of Christ,



interesting that here, with Saint Cyril writing about 360 AD, he speaks of the invocation of the Spirit (the Epiclesis) bringing about the change in the Bread of the Eucharist.

Actually that is not the implication of the words here. Maybe it is a poor translation. It does not speak to agency, merely chronology.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 08:32:42 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,449



« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2011, 10:40:17 PM »


... For as the Bread of the Eucharist, after the invocation of the Holy Spirit, is mere bread no longer but the Body of Christ,



interesting that here, with Saint Cyril writing about 360 AD, he speaks of the invocation of the Spirit (the Epiclesis) bringing about the change in the Bread of the Eucharist.

Actually that is not the implication of the words here. Maybe it is a poor translation. It does not speak to agency, merely chronology.
Actually it does (the context I think Father may have been refering to was the Vatican's stance that an epiclesis is not needed, the words of institution cause "transubstantiation").
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,449



« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2011, 10:59:39 PM »

And...I'm not sure I would say the Holy Spirit is "in" the chrism in the same way the Son is in the Eucharist.
I know He is not.  The Spirit, for instance, did not descend as True God and True Dove at the Jordan.  He is, however, present in the chrism in a way He is not, for instance, in blessed oil (as opposed to consecrated oil) or the oil of annointing of the sick (btw, are they same?).

I was just thinking about how the Nestorian idea of parsopic union is of course inadequate to describe the hypostatic union, but it might adequately describe the Spirit in the Chrism.
Well, the purpose of the Consecrated oil is to transmit the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,
Yes, sort of like water with an electric charge going through it.  Just with life-giving, rather than lethal, consequences.
and the purpose of the blessed oil is to invoke the Holy Spirit upon something, correct?
yes, sort of like a lightening rod, again with life-giving, rather than lethal, consequences.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 11:00:21 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2011, 08:42:38 AM »

yes, sort of like a lightening rod, again with life-giving, rather than lethal, consequences.

So the lightning rod is the avenue through which the lightning is received, but is not the lightning itself.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,449



« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2011, 09:43:42 AM »

yes, sort of like a lightening rod, again with life-giving, rather than lethal, consequences.

So the lightning rod is the avenue through which the lightning is received, but is not the lightning itself.
Yes, and the lightening is not in the rod, just attracted to it.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,943


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2011, 02:47:48 PM »

And...I'm not sure I would say the Holy Spirit is "in" the chrism in the same way the Son is in the Eucharist.
I know He is not.  The Spirit, for instance, did not descend as True God and True Dove at the Jordan.  He is, however, present in the chrism in a way He is not, for instance, in blessed oil (as opposed to consecrated oil) or the oil of annointing of the sick (btw, are they same?).

I was just thinking about how the Nestorian idea of parsopic union is of course inadequate to describe the hypostatic union, but it might adequately describe the Spirit in the Chrism.

I would say that it might also adequately describe how the Spirit works in us.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,943


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2011, 02:49:02 PM »

The belief almost certainly comes from the teaching of Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, from his Catechetical Lectures...

"Beware of supposing this to be plain ointment.  For as the Bread of the Eucharist, after the invocation of the Holy Spirit, is mere bread no longer but the Body of Christ, so also this holy ointment is no more simple ointment, nor (so to say) common, after invocation, but it is Christ’s gift of grace, and, by the advent of the Holy Spirit, is made fit to impart His Divine Nature."



I'm not sure if St. Cyril is saying that the Holy Spirit is in the Chrism just as Christ is in the Eucharist.  He is saying here the Holy Spirit makes the bread true Body, and the Holy Spirit makes the Chrism true grace, a means of imparting His divine nature.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2011, 04:06:08 PM »


... For as the Bread of the Eucharist, after the invocation of the Holy Spirit, is mere bread no longer but the Body of Christ,



interesting that here, with Saint Cyril writing about 360 AD, he speaks of the invocation of the Spirit (the Epiclesis) bringing about the change in the Bread of the Eucharist.

Actually that is not the implication of the words here. Maybe it is a poor translation. It does not speak to agency, merely chronology.

The point may be too pernickety.  I understand Saint Cyril to mean that before the invocation of the Holy Spirit the Bread is still but bread.  Something essential is worked (agency) by the Spirit to effect the change and prior to His action there is no change..
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2011, 07:17:01 PM »

While we're on this subject, would anyone care to help me to understand how chrismation is a suitable substitute for the laying on of hands?

I know why, historically, the shift from one to the other occurred, but I've never understood what mandate the Church had for making the change.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,449



« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 12:46:28 AM »

While we're on this subject, would anyone care to help me to understand how chrismation is a suitable substitute for the laying on of hands?

I know why, historically, the shift from one to the other occurred, but I've never understood what mandate the Church had for making the change.
Makes a nice demarkation between chrismation and the laying on of hands in ordination/consecration (IIRC, the Apostles are consecrated at Pentecost).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,449



« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 12:47:49 AM »

My priest made a nice observation that the Son is the Eucharist, and the Spirit in the chrism, on the altar, and the two Persons are sent by the Father.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,325


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2011, 12:54:45 AM »

I always remembered it as the chrism is a "manifestation of the HS" 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 04:43:50 PM »

Chrism (Qibe'a Myron/Qibe'a Qidus) is used for: 1, to consecrate new objects that will be used  during Divine Liturgy and make them Holy. such as the chalice ,the I do not want to call it a spoon ( erfe mesqel/ the plow of the Cross), etc.

2.to Consecrate a new church building.

3. to consecrate a new altar table, and all that will be on it.

4.At baptism and at coronation of kings.

all the above are done with Myron which can only be prepared by Bishops .

Myron is different than the holy oil( Qandil)  used for the anionting of the sick,and that can be prepared by priests of all rank.  anointing of the sick with the holy oil  essentially can be repeated , where as the Chrism the christian receives at baptism can not be repeated. the holy oil is made out of one pure oil usually olive oil and nothing is added to it. whereas  the Myron is prepared out of pure Olive Oil and other spices added to it, and the prayer is also different and those that prepare it are only Bishops.



And...I'm not sure I would say the Holy Spirit is "in" the chrism in the same way the Son is in the Eucharist.
I know He is not.  The Spirit, for instance, did not descend as True God and True Dove at the Jordan.  He is, however, present in the chrism in a way He is not, for instance, in blessed oil (as opposed to consecrated oil) or the oil of annointing of the sick (btw, are they same?).

I was just thinking about how the Nestorian idea of parsopic union is of course inadequate to describe the hypostatic union, but it might adequately describe the Spirit in the Chrism.

I would say that it might also adequately describe how the Spirit works in us.

Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.093 seconds with 49 queries.