Frank Schaeffer: Religion and Child Abuse

[Jetavan]

The convergence of two news stories should be a wakeup call to alert us to the fact that there is a brutal movement in America that legitimizes child abuse in the name of God. One story involves a judge whipping his daughter with a belt on a YouTube clip that has gone viral. The other involves books by Evangelical leaders on child rearing that advocate spanking, even beating.

But what many people don't seem to realize is that in the Evangelical alternative universe of the home school movement, tightly knit church communities and the cult following of a number of bigtime leaders and authors, physical punishment of children has been glorified for years.
....
Hillary Adams, the daughter who is seen being beaten in the video, secretly recorded the beating and uploaded it to YouTube Oct. 27. "I just wanted somebody to see it and tell me, 'no, Hillary this wasn't right and I'm glad you were able to grow up and move on past this' and 'no, your Dad wasn't right,'" Hillary Adams told ABC News' Chris Cuomo.

 If Hillary wants someone to tell her what her father did wasn't right she will look in vain to the Evangelical Religious Right. It is some of the most respected Evangelical discipline gurus that have made beating children not just "respectable" in conservative religious circles but even turning it into an "I'm just disciplining my child" godly activity.

In 1977 James Dobson, founder of the "Focus on the Family" religious empire and radio program, wrote a book called Dare To Discipline whose purpose was to get parents to beat their children.

Are child beatings/spankings more of a Southern practice than particularly 'evangelical'? I remember having to go outside and get my own switch.

[IsmiLiora]

Don't know if it's JUST southern/evangelical.

I personally don't know where to draw the line, as I was spanked myself as a child (my parents were Catholic immigrants). Belt, no buckle, two hits on my behind as I lay face down on my bed, no cussing or anything on their part, and I had to stay in my room for about an hour after it happened. It stopped around age 7 or 8, though. I don't think it did me irreparable damage although I sure cried during the time. I've probably been spanked about 10 or 12 times total, though, and they were for usually hitting my own sister.

It would be hard to watch happen to another child, though. I get really upset when parents slap their children in the face in public and was almost close to throwing a punch of my own at one point.

But I don't agree with passionate beatings as if they themselves are THE answer. Sometimes it's a time-out. Sometimes it's a spanking. But I think that at the very least, the latter should be a last-resort option. And I don't condone outright beating in anger. The stories described are really, really sad and disgusting.

It's like you are either spoiling the child or beating him. Do these people not know of a middle-of-the-road option?

ETA: P.S. I was raised in a northern blue state if that matters. And other children I knew were hit, usually with belts, but this type of discipline stopped at a very young age. A 12 year old being hit raised eyebrows.

[scamandrius]

I was regularly spanked as a child for disciplinary reasons and even had my mouth washed out with soap once (my mom still regrets that, but she said she would do it so she did). The faith of my parents: Lutheran.

This is just another one of Frankie's axes to grind.  It is his usual pars pro toto fallacious arguments . If one evangelical does something bad, they all must be doing it.  Why do we even bother to post his crap on this board?

[Schultz]

Don't know if it's JUST southern/evangelical.

I personally don't know where to draw the line, as I was spanked myself as a child (my parents were Catholic immigrants). Belt, no buckle, two hits on my behind as I lay face down on my bed, no cussing or anything on their part, and I had to stay in my room for about an hour after it happened. It stopped around age 7 or 8, though. I don't think it did me irreparable damage although I sure cried during the time. I've probably been spanked about 10 or 12 times total, though, and they were for usually hitting my own sister.

It would be hard to watch happen to another child, though. I get really upset when parents slap their children in the face in public and was almost close to throwing a punch of my own at one point.

But I don't agree with passionate beatings as if they themselves are THE answer. Sometimes it's a time-out. Sometimes it's a spanking. But I think that at the very least, the latter should be a last-resort option. And I don't condone outright beating in anger. The stories described are really, really sad and disgusting.

It's like you are either spoiling the child or beating him. Do these people not know of a middle-of-the-road option?

ETA: P.S. I was raised in a northern blue state if that matters. And other children I knew were hit, usually with belts, but this type of discipline stopped at a very young age. A 12 year old being hit raised eyebrows.

My siblings were spanked and lightly smacked upside the head a few times.  I believe I was spanked once.  Our household was Roman Catholic.  My father grew up in Pittsburgh and my mother was an army brat who grew up in Germany and Alexandria.  I know my paternal grandfather was a bit of a hardass, but I can't recall my mother ever mentioning her father using corporal punishment on his kids.

I'm not a crusader by any means, but I think hitting your kids in 21st century America is wrong.  Violence is the last resort of those who have lost control of a situation.  And I write that as someone who lost control of many situations in my 20s.

[Orest]

In 1977 James Dobson, founder of the "Focus on the Family" religious empire and radio program, wrote a book called Dare To Discipline whose purpose was to get parents to beat their children.

I wonder if the book is still in print or if the author has changed his mind.
I too am troubled by all the talk of "home schooling".  Children need to be in social settings for their group.  All that isolation is not good.

[scamandrius]

My siblings were spanked and lightly smacked upside the head a few times.  I believe I was spanked once.  Our household was Roman Catholic.  My father grew up in Pittsburgh and my mother was an army brat who grew up in Germany and Alexandria.  I know my paternal grandfather was a bit of a hardass, but I can't recall my mother ever mentioning her father using corporal punishment on his kids.

I'm not a crusader by any means, but I think hitting your kids in 21st century America is wrong.  Violence is the last resort of those who have lost control of a situation.  And I write that as someone who lost control of many situations in my 20s.

I don't believe for a second that my parents spanking me, which happened regularly, was influenced by some innate desire to satisfy their blood lust or violent tendencies because they had none.  It was done to correct me and it worked.  I never had bruises, I never had to go to the hospital.  You are wrong to make no distinction between abuse and corrective discipline.

I too am troubled by all the talk of "home schooling".  Children need to be in social settings for their group.  All that isolation is not good.

You are quite mistaken to suggest that homeschooled kids are isolated, that they are kept in a box all day.  When I was teaching, I went to conventions both locally and nationally for my students who studied the Classics.  The kids at these conventions came from public schools, private schools and home schools.  And I can tel you, without fail, that the kids who were homeschooled were the most polite, courteous and well adapted kids there.  They interacted with the other kids although I will tell you that it was the private school kids and public school kids who were the most socially inept.  They frequently touted an air of superiority and intolerance towards the homeschoolers which was completely unnecessary and embarrassing to me and many others.  Homeschooled kids socialize; they just don't do it in a building from 8-4 Monday through Friday. 

And forget my anecdotal evidence, but this trumped up charge has little to no supporting evidence.  Are there homeschooled kids who lack socialization skills? Yes, but nowhere near to the degree of public and private schooled kids.  Public and private school students tend to form more cliques and be less tolerant of others' differences.  I don't have the studies linked (they're in articles I've read over the years).

On another point, we have strayed from the op. There is already a thread dedicated to spanking. 

[IsmiLiora]

I personally think there is a difference between spanking your child on the behind with your hand versus beating them with a switch. I think the former can be used in certain, very rare situations (such as giving your sister a black eye at age 7, on purpose) but the latter is never acceptable to me.

But I'm saying this as someone with no children yet. I fully recognize that I may change my mind at that time -- I mean change my mind to not tolerating any spankings, not to tolerating beatings! Or I may stay the same. I'm not sure.


I was very grateful not to be living with my cousins, though. My parents just used a regular belt, which I realized was heaven when I began spending more time at my aunts' and uncles' houses. They pinched. And let me tell you, I would take 10 whacks from my parents over that one pinch. I would be bent over the table and they would pinch me on my upper inner thigh VERY HARD, and it was for really stupid infractions, too, such as wearing shoes inside the house or "giving them attitude."

My mother and her siblings were really beat, though, as children. Their uncle would beat them with household slippers, rulers, whatever else he had around. And they were always doled out depending on his mood. I would have been terrified to grow up in that household.

[Ansgar]

I was regularly spanked as a child for disciplinary reasons and even had my mouth washed out with soap once (my mom still regrets that, but she said she would do it so she did). The faith of my parents: Lutheran.

This is just another one of Frankie's axes to grind.  It is his usual pars pro toto fallacious arguments . If one evangelical does something bad, they all must be doing it.  Why do we even bother to post his crap on this board?

I always thought that thing about washing ones mouth with soap was just a joke they used on television.

[Schultz]

My siblings were spanked and lightly smacked upside the head a few times.  I believe I was spanked once.  Our household was Roman Catholic.  My father grew up in Pittsburgh and my mother was an army brat who grew up in Germany and Alexandria.  I know my paternal grandfather was a bit of a hardass, but I can't recall my mother ever mentioning her father using corporal punishment on his kids.

I'm not a crusader by any means, but I think hitting your kids in 21st century America is wrong.  Violence is the last resort of those who have lost control of a situation.  And I write that as someone who lost control of many situations in my 20s.

I don't believe for a second that my parents spanking me, which happened regularly, was influenced by some innate desire to satisfy their blood lust or violent tendencies because they had none.  It was done to correct me and it worked.  I never had bruises, I never had to go to the hospital.  You are wrong to make no distinction between abuse and corrective discipline.

I believe the same about my parents, too.  I just know how easy it is for "corrective discipline" to turn into "abuse".  It's a line that I think should not be toed.  It's playing with fire and, frankly, we were lucky that our parents were able to check their tempers and keep the whole thing on the discipline side.  I've seen far too many people who were not so lucky.  As an analogy, I know plenty of people for whom recreational drug use never crossed the line into drug addiction.  Many of my good friends have literally tried most everything out there a few times and now do not indulge at all.  However, I know far more who died with a needle in their arms or, at the very least, are among the walking dead.  Call me fretful, but violence can be just as powerful drug, especially if you discover you're good at it.

I make no moral judgment on those who practice spanking, especially when it's done in the privacy of their own homes with as much discipline as they mete out to their misbehaved children.  I just think it's a dangerous road to travel. 

And having to use corporal punishment to discipline your children STILL shows that you've lost control and the respect of your children.  Even the Tarkin Doctrine is a better means to maintain control than "regular spankings".  If you have to regularly spank your kids, you have no control over them. 

I too am troubled by all the talk of "home schooling".  Children need to be in social settings for their group.  All that isolation is not good.

You are quite mistaken to suggest that homeschooled kids are isolated, that they are kept in a box all day.  When I was teaching, I went to conventions both locally and nationally for my students who studied the Classics.  The kids at these conventions came from public schools, private schools and home schools.  And I can tel you, without fail, that the kids who were homeschooled were the most polite, courteous and well adapted kids there.  They interacted with the other kids although I will tell you that it was the private school kids and public school kids who were the most socially inept.  They frequently touted an air of superiority and intolerance towards the homeschoolers which was completely unnecessary and embarrassing to me and many others.  Homeschooled kids socialize; they just don't do it in a building from 8-4 Monday through Friday. 

And forget my anecdotal evidence, but this trumped up charge has little to no supporting evidence.  Are there homeschooled kids who lack socialization skills? Yes, but nowhere near to the degree of public and private schooled kids.  Public and private school students tend to form more cliques and be less tolerant of others' differences.  I don't have the studies linked (they're in articles I've read over the years).

On another point, we have strayed from the op. There is already a thread dedicated to spanking. 

We certainly agree wholeheartedly on this point.

[NicholasMyra]

The other involves books by Evangelical leaders on child rearing that advocate spanking

Quick! Someone tell Asia, Africa, South America and Eastern Europe they're all really crypto-evangelicals.

[orthonorm]

I will thoroughly and exhaustively address this tonight or tomorrow.

No seriously . . .

[Ortho_cat]

Frank loves to beat up on the Evangelicals...

[augustin717]

Frank loves to beat up on the Evangelicals...

Commendable as they are among the most reactionary groups in this country.

[IsmiLiora]

Frank loves to beat up on the Evangelicals...

I find myself agreeing with him in the beginning, but by the end, both of his feet are firmly in his mouth.

[Papist]

I was spanked throughout my childhood. I think that it did me a great deal of good. When a child is very young, I think spanking is the best form of discipline. As the child ages, it's probably appropriate to back away from such.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Another edifying account by Frank Schaeffer, the perpetually angry author.

The targets change; the man remains the same.

[bogdan]

I was spanked until about age 12 or so. At that point, a child has developed enough reason that direct pain-based punishments are no longer necessary.

This guy who beat is daughter was out of control. When I was spanked as a child it was done calmly, 1-3 times. That is effective and I have no problem with it.

And I agree with Alveus about Schaeffer. The guy has struck me as an angry nutjob in every article of his I've read.

[orthonorm]

Another edifying account by Frank Schaeffer, the perpetually angry author.

The targets change; the man remains the same.

Never heard of him. I know so little about this Christian stuff.

[katherineofdixie]

I always thought that thing about washing ones mouth with soap was just a joke they used on television.

Au contraire. I also had my mouth washed out - with Octagon soap. I wonder if they still make it? As a small child, I used the "n-word" and my grandmother heard me.

[Ansgar]

I always thought that thing about washing ones mouth with soap was just a joke they used on television.

Au contraire. I also had my mouth washed out - with Octagon soap. I wonder if they still make it? As a small child, I used the "n-word" and my grandmother heard me.

Yirk! That must taste horrible.

[bogdan]

Another edifying account by Frank Schaeffer, the perpetually angry author.

The targets change; the man remains the same.

Never heard of him. I know so little about this Christian stuff.

He is known because his father was Francis Schaeffer (Sr.), a major Evangelical theologian. Frankie (Jr.) became Orthodox at some point and has become very reactionary against his past.

I think he often throws the baby out with the bathwater, rejecting even things that Evangelicals and Orthodox tend to hold in common (mostly things that fall under the "right wing" of politics).

He has a very angry and virulent writing style, reminding me of the Voices from Russia individual.

[augustin717]

rejecting even things that Evangelicals and Orthodox tend to hold in common (mostly things that fall under the "right wing" of politics).

Not to turn it into a politics thread, but judging by how orthodox nations vote and behave, your assessment is really off.
Even here in America ethnic Orthodox aren't exactly "right wing" by American standards. The vote Democratic and kinda behave like mainstream Catholics or Episcopalians.

[Ortho_cat]

rejecting even things that Evangelicals and Orthodox tend to hold in common (mostly things that fall under the "right wing" of politics).

Not to turn it into a politics thread, but judging by how orthodox nations vote and behave, your assessment is really off.
Even here in America ethnic Orthodox aren't exactly "right wing" by American standards. The vote Democratic and kinda behave like mainstream Catholics or Episcopalians.

hmm thats a rather broad brush...

[orthonorm]

rejecting even things that Evangelicals and Orthodox tend to hold in common (mostly things that fall under the "right wing" of politics).

Not to turn it into a politics thread, but judging by how orthodox nations vote and behave, your assessment is really off.
Even here in America ethnic Orthodox aren't exactly "right wing" by American standards. The vote Democratic and kinda behave like mainstream Catholics or Episcopalians.

hmm thats a rather broad brush...

He's a proletariat house painter, he can't afford your bourgeois sable hair brush! Have a heart man!

[bogdan]

rejecting even things that Evangelicals and Orthodox tend to hold in common (mostly things that fall under the "right wing" of politics).

Not to turn it into a politics thread, but judging by how orthodox nations vote and behave, your assessment is really off.
Even here in America ethnic Orthodox aren't exactly "right wing" by American standards. The vote Democratic and kinda behave like mainstream Catholics or Episcopalians.

That does not hold true with the "ethnic Orthodox" people I know, which is the majority of Orthodox people I know.

[katherineofdixie]

I always thought that thing about washing ones mouth with soap was just a joke they used on television.

Au contraire. I also had my mouth washed out - with Octagon soap. I wonder if they still make it? As a small child, I used the "n-word" and my grandmother heard me.

Yirk! That must taste horrible.

It made quite an impression, I can tell you!

[augustin717]

rejecting even things that Evangelicals and Orthodox tend to hold in common (mostly things that fall under the "right wing" of politics).

Not to turn it into a politics thread, but judging by how orthodox nations vote and behave, your assessment is really off.
Even here in America ethnic Orthodox aren't exactly "right wing" by American standards. The vote Democratic and kinda behave like mainstream Catholics or Episcopalians.

That does not hold true with the "ethnic Orthodox" people I know, which is the majority of Orthodox people I know.

Well, of course, because your own right-wing tendencies you'll associate with folks of similar bent but IIRC there are some statistics around that show that Orthodox in America vote overwhelmingly Democrat, some conservative islands notwithstanding . And those are mostly in the South, where the number of ethnic orthodox is lower.

[PrincessMommy]

I was spanked until about age 12 or so. At that point, a child has developed enough reason that direct pain-based punishments are no longer necessary.

This guy who beat is daughter was out of control. When I was spanked as a child it was done calmly, 1-3 times. That is effective and I have no problem with it.

And I agree with Alveus about Schaeffer. The guy has struck me as an angry nutjob in every article of his I've read.

I agree.  There's a difference between spanking and beating. 

My kids were spanked until they were about 10-11. On rare occasions maybe one of the kids was spanked around 12-13yrs old.  We hardly spanked the kids and, the odd thing is that as we had more children we spanked less.  The older kids kept the younger ones in line and warned them "You don't want the spanking spoon."

IIRC, Dr. Dobson's mantra was "don't spank in anger" and I agree.  If you're reacting and angry then you're probably crossing the line and it's no longer about discipline.   "Dare to Discipline" isn't just about spanking. It's about disciplining our children and setting boundaries and keeping them.   It was originally written in reaction to the 50's/60's mindset of letting kids do and choose whatever they wanted.

Schaeffer needs to grow up and realize he's not a child anymore.  He needs to get over himself and stop playing the victim.

[Gorazd]

The other involves books by Evangelical leaders on child rearing that advocate spanking

Quick! Someone tell Asia, Africa, South America and Eastern Europe they're all really crypto-evangelicals.

Well, Asia, Africa and South America have many evangelicals. And in Eastern Europe, spanking is not usual. It seems to me that in Ukraine only drunk parents would beat their children. Otherwise, they would spoil them and try to fulfill each and every wish.

[Iconodule]

I got spanked. I also had to ingest a spoonful of Sriracha hot sauce if I cursed. I don't know if it actually made me a better person but it didn't traumatize me.

[vamrat]

I always thought that thing about washing ones mouth with soap was just a joke they used on television.

Au contraire. I also had my mouth washed out - with Octagon soap. I wonder if they still make it? As a small child, I used the "n-word" and my grandmother heard me.

Yirk! That must taste horrible.

It made quite an impression, I can tell you!

Adding my personal experiences to yours and scamandrius's, I am noticing a pattern develop - you only need to wash a child's mouth out with soap once.  Then the threat of an implied unorthodox oral hygiene regimen becomes sufficient motivation!

[primuspilus]

I have been spanked which did me good. I was also beaten and abused. It escalated to my being removed from my home from the age of 10 until my adulthood to live with my grandparents.

There is a huge difference. I spanked my kid, but never beat him ever.

To put any kind of political sauce into the mix is probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard on this forum for.......wait...what time is it?


PP

[Ansgar]

I always thought that thing about washing ones mouth with soap was just a joke they used on television.

Au contraire. I also had my mouth washed out - with Octagon soap. I wonder if they still make it? As a small child, I used the "n-word" and my grandmother heard me.

That must be why I have never seen it in practice. 
Yirk! That must taste horrible.

It made quite an impression, I can tell you!

Adding my personal experiences to yours and scamandrius's, I am noticing a pattern develop - you only need to wash a child's mouth out with soap once.  Then the threat of an implied unorthodox oral hygiene regimen becomes sufficient motivation!

[brandb]

Whoa, I feel out of place. I WISH my spankings stopped when I was 10. They didn't stop until I was
15-16 and the last time my dad left bruises so bad that I couldn't sit down for a week. 

I'm for a right smack if a kid needs it but it shouldn't be used for e v e r y t h i n g, and certainly
not past 9-10 yrs. Def not appropriate.

[Volnutt]

Whoa, I feel out of place. I WISH my spankings stopped when I was 10. They didn't stop until I was
15-16 and the last time my dad left bruises so bad that I couldn't sit down for a week. 

Oh, brandi. I'm so sorry 

[vamrat]

Whoa, I feel out of place. I WISH my spankings stopped when I was 10. They didn't stop until I was
15-16 and the last time my dad left bruises so bad that I couldn't sit down for a week. 

I'm for a right smack if a kid needs it but it shouldn't be used for e v e r y t h i n g, and certainly
not past 9-10 yrs. Def not appropriate.

So...yeah...um.  Did the have anything interesting to say to your dad after that last one?

[Maria]

In 1977 James Dobson, founder of the "Focus on the Family" religious empire and radio program, wrote a book called Dare To Discipline whose purpose was to get parents to beat their children.

I wonder if the book is still in print or if the author has changed his mind.
I too am troubled by all the talk of "home schooling".  Children need to be in social settings for their group.  All that isolation is not good.

Home schooling does not teach "spanking" and "beating" children into submission.
There may be some groups which do advocate this, but the home schooling groups, of which I was a part, did not.
We even had seminars on how to discipline your child with love using TIME OUT. Quiet time is especially important as noise often upsets children. The NCIS programs with their scary music can upset children, yet how many parents are addicted to those CBS shows. In fact, most seminars encouraged us to avoid artificial colors, candy, chemicalized and highly processed foods, and sodas with all the sugar (linked with diabetes) or aspartame, which has been linked with headaches, and hence bad behavior.

[sainthieu]

The vote Democratic and kinda behave like mainstream Catholics or Episcopalians.

In your dreams. A Christian would not vote for a party that supported abortion or class envy.

[Jetavan]

The vote Democratic and kinda behave like mainstream Catholics or Episcopalians.

In your dreams. A Christian would not vote for a party that supported abortion or class envy.

[IsmiLiora]

The vote Democratic and kinda behave like mainstream Catholics or Episcopalians.

In your dreams. A Christian would not vote for a party that supported abortion or class envy.

Wow, so we have a lot of non-Christians on this board. I guess they're attending church for nothing, then....

[brandb]

Whoa, I feel out of place. I WISH my spankings stopped when I was 10. They didn't stop until I was
15-16 and the last time my dad left bruises so bad that I couldn't sit down for a week. 

I'm for a right smack if a kid needs it but it shouldn't be used for e v e r y t h i n g, and certainly
not past 9-10 yrs. Def not appropriate.

So...yeah...um.  Did the have anything interesting to say to your dad after that last one?

No police.
A can of worms, dude. A. Can. Of. Worms.

[Papist]

The vote Democratic and kinda behave like mainstream Catholics or Episcopalians.

In your dreams. A Christian would not vote for a party that supported abortion or class envy.

+1

[Papist]

I have been spanked which did me good. I was also beaten and abused. It escalated to my being removed from my home from the age of 10 until my adulthood to live with my grandparents.

There is a huge difference. I spanked my kid, but never beat him ever.

To put any kind of political sauce into the mix is probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard on this forum for.......wait...what time is it?


PP

+1

[vamrat]

Whoa, I feel out of place. I WISH my spankings stopped when I was 10. They didn't stop until I was
15-16 and the last time my dad left bruises so bad that I couldn't sit down for a week. 

I'm for a right smack if a kid needs it but it shouldn't be used for e v e r y t h i n g, and certainly
not past 9-10 yrs. Def not appropriate.

So...yeah...um.  Did the have anything interesting to say to your dad after that last one?

No police.
A can of worms, dude. A. Can. Of. Worms.

OK, my can opener will stay in the drawer next to the cheese grater, then.  I'll just go ahead and agree with your initial post on the matter.

[Papist]

I have been spanked which did me good. I was also beaten and abused. It escalated to my being removed from my home from the age of 10 until my adulthood to live with my grandparents.

There is a huge difference. I spanked my kid, but never beat him ever.

To put any kind of political sauce into the mix is probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard on this forum for.......wait...what time is it?


PP

+1

When I "+1ed" this I realized that I should have been more clear. I was not beaten as a kid but I was spanked and I turned out ok. And yes, it's silly to politicize this issue.

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