OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 23, 2014, 02:44:33 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Protestant orthodox debate  (Read 5983 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« on: November 11, 2011, 10:20:04 AM »

I need help. I invite everybody to a debate that I need for a project. The idea is to debate about where the truth is.

I hope God will give salvation to everybody participating and that everybody will learn from it. If at the end we will agree to disagree, fine.

I will start with an introduction as to why Orthodoxy is true.

Historical perspective:

Jesus came in year 33 and first Church was established in year 33 in Jerusalem not in year 1500+ when first Protestant Church was established. The same Church established in year 33, where Holy Light miracle happens every year is even today in Eastern orthodox Church.

In Bible we find several Churches: Ephess, Corinth, Antioch. All these Churches with one exception, the Church of Rome, are today in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Here we have the list of all Eastern Orthodox Leaders of Church of Jerusalem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Patriarch_of_Jerusalem
as we see there is a continuity of this Church from the time of apostles to today.

Belief continuity

We have the Liturgy of Apostle James believed to be written in year 60  that is celebrated even today in some Eastern Orthodox Churches. Also we have the Holy Liturgies of Apostles Mark, Peter ,Thomas  and through these we know what Christians did on Sundays. These Holy Liturgies were giving food for eternal life to people.

In Protestant Churches the Holy Liturgy was replaced with sermon however we do see Holy Liturgies on Eastern Orthodox Church. THERE IS NO SERMON BASED, ICONOCLAST CHURCH FOR FIRST 1500 YEARS OF CHRISTIANITY.

We see in Church history people having icons and fighting against iconoclasm and the same attitude we find in Eastern Orthodox Church today. However we find the iconoclast atitude in protestantism. Even if images are prohibited we do see people of protestanbt faith having imegs, pictures, albums and US being a great movie producer. So to say that images are interdicted and then to have images shows an inconsistency of Protestant doctrine.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 10:54:03 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,840


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 03:03:16 PM »

Alot of protestants believe that the church went off the rails immediately after the death of St. John due to the influx of former polythiests who became converts. Folks like Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, Irenaus, etc. totally warped the Christian Church and was in apostasy until the reformation. Some protestants (who are called landmarkists) state that the early heresies were in reality ancient "protestants" for lack of a better word, that were pushed down by the official church and demonized. Their "trail of blood" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trail_of_Blood, although completely silly, is kind of interesting......interesting in the same way that some folks claim the Earth is infested by the "Reptoids" and connect their little dots.

Of course to really hold to that one must pretty much deny alot of history and common sense and a good bit of scripture thrown into the mix (...the gates of hell will never overcome, etc)

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,297



« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 04:20:20 PM »

What do you mean by "Protestant" please?  It isn't one monolithic block just for starters.  Do you have any particular Church or group in mind? 

Why 1500?  Are you thinking of Martin Luther? 

Why should your opinions of any other Church be regarded as true?  What real knowledge do you have about them and will you back up your statements with sources that others can check? 

Will you take other people's ideas into account?

Is this for a "project" in real rather than on-line encounters?

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2011, 08:48:53 PM »

Of course to really hold to that one must pretty much deny alot of history and common sense and a good bit of scripture thrown into the mix (...the gates of hell will never overcome, etc)

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,949


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2011, 10:05:30 PM »

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.

Ahh, the feckless God theory.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2011, 10:32:55 PM »

Of course to really hold to that one must pretty much deny alot of history and common sense and a good bit of scripture thrown into the mix (...the gates of hell will never overcome, etc)

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.

I thought the Reformed church started over eating sausages during the lenten fast?
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2011, 10:39:28 PM »

Alot of protestants believe that the church went off the rails immediately after the death of St. John due to the influx of former polythiests who became converts. Folks like Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, Irenaus, etc. totally warped the Christian Church and was in apostasy until the reformation. Some protestants (who are called landmarkists) state that the early heresies were in reality ancient "protestants" for lack of a better word, that were pushed down by the official church and demonized. Their "trail of blood" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trail_of_Blood, although completely silly, is kind of interesting......interesting in the same way that some folks claim the Earth is infested by the "Reptoids" and connect their little dots.

Of course to really hold to that one must pretty much deny alot of history and common sense and a good bit of scripture thrown into the mix (...the gates of hell will never overcome, etc)

PP


Not all protestants believe that. However, the ones that do would be known as Restorationist. From the top of my head I would say that the Anabaptists, and the Cambellites(churches of christ) would be restorationistic in nature. You also might find some among the Baptists(landmark) as well.

But not all protestants are Restorationists. Originally, the protestants only wanted to Reform the western church, not Restore it.


There is a difference in degree. A Reformer believes the church fell off the rails slowly and over a long period of time (only to be set right whenever so and so's reformed group began), while a Restorer believes the church fell off the rails quickly, only to be restored or brought back into existence when the founder of whatever restorationist group began.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 10:47:31 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2011, 02:47:27 AM »

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.

Ahh, the feckless God theory.

Yeh, hard to Adam-and-Eve it!

 Wink
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 02:48:48 AM by FountainPen » Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2011, 05:05:59 AM »

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.

Ahh, the feckless God theory.

Yeh, hard to Adam-and-Eve it!

 Wink
Cockney rhyming slang freaking blows my mind lol.
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2011, 05:08:45 AM »

Of course to really hold to that one must pretty much deny alot of history and common sense and a good bit of scripture thrown into the mix (...the gates of hell will never overcome, etc)

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.
I'm not sure how this would work out. Did Hell triumph over the Church of Rome and then get beaten back? Luther and Calvin both said Gregory the Great was the last good Pope, IIRC.
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
akimori makoto
正義の剣
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2011, 08:44:32 AM »

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.

Ahh, the feckless God theory.

Yeh, hard to Adam-and-Eve it!

 Wink
Cockney rhyming slang freaking blows my mind lol.

Australians do it too. More shame for my shame-pile.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2011, 08:54:24 AM »

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.

Ahh, the feckless God theory.

Yeh, hard to Adam-and-Eve it!

 Wink
Cockney rhyming slang freaking blows my mind lol.

Australians do it too. More shame for my shame-pile.
You officially have my permission to embrace this aspect of your heritage.
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2011, 07:50:03 AM »

The problem with this view is that there is not a consistent doctrine from that time to present. See Apostle James and most apostles wrote Holy Liturgies that describe in detail what Christians did on Sunday and these are nowhere to be found in Protestantism today. Also icons found in these groups , and icons are not found in Protestantism today.

Also when Luther came, his followers came from Roman Catholic Church, Luther and others too so if a clandestine Church would break from underground, why would all New Protestants would be Romano Catholics and not Underground people? Why would they not say we were part of underground Church and here is our heritage you can trace back to Jesus and doctrine you can trace back to origins? I don't think we should take these lightly since many people renounce food for eternal life without even knowing it by going to Protestantism.

Protestantism = religious groups appearing after 1500 . That is 1500+ years after Jesus established his Church in Jerusalem

Alot of protestants believe that the church went off the rails immediately after the death of St. John due to the influx of former polythiests who became converts. Folks like Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, Irenaus, etc. totally warped the Christian Church and was in apostasy until the reformation. Some protestants (who are called landmarkists) state that the early heresies were in reality ancient "protestants" for lack of a better word, that were pushed down by the official church and demonized. Their "trail of blood" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trail_of_Blood, although completely silly, is kind of interesting......interesting in the same way that some folks claim the Earth is infested by the "Reptoids" and connect their little dots.

Of course to really hold to that one must pretty much deny alot of history and common sense and a good bit of scripture thrown into the mix (...the gates of hell will never overcome, etc)

PP


« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 07:53:33 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 669


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 02:41:44 PM »

Do debates, or alt least religious/philosophical ever really do anything?
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2011, 02:53:48 PM »

Hasn't every other thread in this sub-forum explored what the OP has posted?  Roll Eyes

Furthermore, the OP fails to recognize the Liturgical tradition of the Anglican/Episcopalian and Methodist Churches. Furthermore, to ignore the nuances in theology within the various Protestant sects just shows that your ignorance about them is about as great as the 98% of Americans who are ignorant about us. (After all, we're just like Catholics but without the Pope, right?)

Thus, this "debate" thread should prove to be fruitless quickly.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,840


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2011, 03:54:24 PM »

Well I can only speak of experience that i have in my locality. What I explained is what the vast majority of protestants (evan. hyper-con baptists) believe here.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2011, 04:59:38 PM »

Do debates, or alt least religious/philosophical ever really do anything?

The OP already crushed this answer elsewhere. If the following doesn't make a Protestant jump ship in a lick, I don't know what else will.

Protestantism explained.

At the beginning there was a company named Airbus that produced a valid Airbus manual used to build an Airbus plane that would flie safely. Everybody was happy.

1500 from this company some people used their mind to build their own plane. They called themself Protestants and used their mind to build their own plane they called Protestant Airbus. So at beginning they said that the original manual is false. First thing they were thinking as to why the glasses on the window are neccesary and they tought that these glasses impact people viewing the outside.

So hammer please said Luther, and Calvin and smash....all windows gone. This is how we do protest. The new plane while having the Engine thus being able to fly, would not protect the lifes of passengers so it was almost useless. In religion protestantism  has lost eternal life.

Then many groups were formed starting debates saying engine only, or we believe wings only or some other meanless crap. Some were adding bigger wings saying we are true since it is Wings only and such we have the bigger wings and such.

The Protest and revolutions continued and some extravangt groups took engine out and smashed it.  They were from the Wings only group that took their name seriously.

What can I say more.

Single greatest statement ever made on THE Great Apostasy.

Time to come back to the airfield, our Wings-Only friends.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 04:59:58 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,297



« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2011, 07:47:55 PM »

Hasn't every other thread in this sub-forum explored what the OP has posted?  Roll Eyes

Furthermore, the OP fails to recognize the Liturgical tradition of the Anglican/Episcopalian and Methodist Churches. Furthermore, to ignore the nuances in theology within the various Protestant sects just shows that your ignorance about them is about as great as the 98% of Americans who are ignorant about us. (After all, we're just like Catholics but without the Pope, right?)

Thus, this "debate" thread should prove to be fruitless quickly.

Thank you for this, HandmaidenofGod.   Smiley

I also wondered if this was to be a "debate" would the OP actually read and follow any counter-information/arguments that are about anything that is really from a Protestant Church and address them seriously rather than making unfounded or confusing statements and not answering other people's questions

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2011, 03:04:14 AM »

Protestantism explained.

At the beginning there was a company named Airbus that produced a valid Airbus manual used to build an Airbus plane that would flie safely. Everybody was happy.

1500 from this company some people used their mind to build their own plane. They called themself Protestants and used their mind to build their own plane they called Protestant Airbus. So at beginning they said that the original manual is false. First thing they were thinking as to why the glasses on the window are neccesary and they tought that these glasses impact people viewing the outside.

So hammer please said Luther, and Calvin and smash....all windows gone. This is how we do protest. The new plane while having the Engine thus being able to fly, would not protect the lifes of passengers so it was almost useless. In religion protestantism  has lost eternal life.

Then many groups were formed starting debates saying engine only, or we believe wings only or some other meanless crap. Some were adding bigger wings saying we are true since it is Wings only and such we have the bigger wings and such.

The Protest and revolutions continued and some extravangt groups took engine out and smashed it.  They were from the Wings only group that took their name seriously.

What can I say more.

Cute!
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2011, 03:06:03 AM »

Protestantism explained.

At the beginning there was a company named Airbus that produced a valid Airbus manual used to build an Airbus plane that would flie safely. Everybody was happy.

1500 from this company some people used their mind to build their own plane. They called themself Protestants and used their mind to build their own plane they called Protestant Airbus. So at beginning they said that the original manual is false. First thing they were thinking as to why the glasses on the window are neccesary and they tought that these glasses impact people viewing the outside.

So hammer please said Luther, and Calvin and smash....all windows gone. This is how we do protest. The new plane while having the Engine thus being able to fly, would not protect the lifes of passengers so it was almost useless. In religion protestantism  has lost eternal life.

Then many groups were formed starting debates saying engine only, or we believe wings only or some other meanless crap. Some were adding bigger wings saying we are true since it is Wings only and such we have the bigger wings and such.

The Protest and revolutions continued and some extravangt groups took engine out and smashed it.  They were from the Wings only group that took their name seriously.

What can I say more.

Cute!
Isn't he adorable lol?
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2011, 03:20:33 AM »

Protestantism explained.

At the beginning there was a company named Airbus that produced a valid Airbus manual used to build an Airbus plane that would flie safely. Everybody was happy.

1500 from this company some people used their mind to build their own plane. They called themself Protestants and used their mind to build their own plane they called Protestant Airbus. So at beginning they said that the original manual is false. First thing they were thinking as to why the glasses on the window are neccesary and they tought that these glasses impact people viewing the outside.

So hammer please said Luther, and Calvin and smash....all windows gone. This is how we do protest. The new plane while having the Engine thus being able to fly, would not protect the lifes of passengers so it was almost useless. In religion protestantism  has lost eternal life.

Then many groups were formed starting debates saying engine only, or we believe wings only or some other meanless crap. Some were adding bigger wings saying we are true since it is Wings only and such we have the bigger wings and such.

The Protest and revolutions continued and some extravangt groups took engine out and smashed it.  They were from the Wings only group that took their name seriously.

What can I say more.

Cute!
Isn't he adorable lol?

If i was his mum i'd probably agree. This analogy however, leaves me speechless #laughs

Probably end up as POM #shakes head
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2011, 04:41:09 AM »

Do debates, or alt least religious/philosophical ever really do anything?

Yes! Just look at all the debates of the past 2,000 years!

For me, it helps me understand the Faith better, it helps me understand why I believe what I am suppose to as a Christian, as well as how to explain it better to others.
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica Metropolitanate
Posts: 4,469



« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2011, 11:41:29 AM »

To the OP -

Instead of an internet debate, why don't you get a copy of Christian Dogmatics by Francis Pieper and Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Michael Pomazansky.  Pieper was a former President of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod at the turn of the last century, and Fr. Pomazansky was a respected theologian in the ROCOR who lived a little later than Pieper, but who's life overlapped Pieper's somewhat.  Both works are highly regarded by their respective Churches, and both were written at a time before modernism had made serious inroads into the Churches.  I am sure that between the two, you will find all that you need to argue either side of your "debate".  It would be an interesting project indeed.
Logged

God did not create man equal.  Samuel Colt made man equal.  Blessed be the Peacemaker.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,079


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2011, 03:41:11 PM »

Of course to really hold to that one must pretty much deny alot of history and common sense and a good bit of scripture thrown into the mix (...the gates of hell will never overcome, etc)

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.

I thought the Reformed church started over eating sausages during the lenten fast?
That wasn't the wurst of it.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,840


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2011, 03:56:30 PM »

Of course to really hold to that one must pretty much deny alot of history and common sense and a good bit of scripture thrown into the mix (...the gates of hell will never overcome, etc)

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.

I thought the Reformed church started over eating sausages during the lenten fast?
That wasn't the wurst of it.

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
dcommini
Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,194


Beannachd Dia dhuit

dcommini
WWW
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2011, 03:58:07 PM »

I thought the Reformed church started over eating sausages during the lenten fast?
That wasn't the wurst of it.

 Roll Eyes
Logged

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2011, 04:19:34 PM »

Of course to really hold to that one must pretty much deny alot of history and common sense and a good bit of scripture thrown into the mix (...the gates of hell will never overcome, etc)

I've been told that the birth of Protestantism was the victorious church breaking through.

I thought the Reformed church started over eating sausages during the lenten fast?
That wasn't the wurst of it.

Wow. No. Really. Wow.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2011, 05:26:50 PM »

Hasn't every other thread in this sub-forum explored what the OP has posted?  Roll Eyes

Furthermore, the OP fails to recognize the Liturgical tradition of the Anglican/Episcopalian and Methodist Churches. Furthermore, to ignore the nuances in theology within the various Protestant sects just shows that your ignorance about them is about as great as the 98% of Americans who are ignorant about us. (After all, we're just like Catholics but without the Pope, right?)

Thus, this "debate" thread should prove to be fruitless quickly.

Thank you for this, HandmaidenofGod.   Smiley

I also wondered if this was to be a "debate" would the OP actually read and follow any counter-information/arguments that are about anything that is really from a Protestant Church and address them seriously rather than making unfounded or confusing statements and not answering other people's questions

Ebor

Glad to be of service. Wink

I also would wonder the same thing. The problem with these "debates" is that usually the people who initiate them are not at all interested in discussing the various ideas concerning theology, but really just want to push whatever ideas they have on others.

Journals such as "Touchstone" magazine are a real world example of how members of the various traditions within Christianity can have a discussion and come to points of agreement, without abandoning their beliefs or faith tradition.

Also, what tends to happen in these discussions is people use polar examples to prove their point, when it doesn't really address where most people lie: somewhere in the middle.

I also don't like lumping all Protestants in one group. It isn't intellectually honest to the beliefs of the various groups.

My mother is one of three sisters. Although they are all Protestant, when the three of them sit down to discuss religion, there isn't a consensus between them. One is Baptist, another is Pentecostal/Charismatic, and the third belongs to a group that considers themselves Christian, but only observe Jewish holidays.

If such disagreement can exist in the small microcosm of the population that is my family, what is to be said about the rest of Christianity?
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2011, 06:12:07 PM »

Seriously? They don't even agree about salvation or the Deity of Christ?
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2011, 06:15:18 PM »

Seriously? They don't even agree about salvation or the Deity of Christ?

Nope. And that's just among the three sisters.

I haven't even mentioned the Catholic, Jewish, and Bhuddist members of my family!!  laugh laugh laugh
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2011, 06:18:31 PM »

And you've asked them this? I don't question your honesty, but I have a really hard time believing the Baptist and the Pentecostal would disagree on such basics (unless she's Oneness?)
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2011, 06:23:39 PM »

And you've asked them this? I don't question your honesty, but I have a really hard time believing the Baptist and the Pentecostal would disagree on such basics (unless she's Oneness?)

I never said that. I said that there are parts of their faith they disagree one. Between the three sisters though, not all agree on the divinity of Christ.(Baptist and Pentacostal, yes, the third, not so much.) Considering they were all raised in a highly devout Catholic home, for the three of them to diverge so wildly is telling. 

My point is not to dissect the beliefs of my aunts and my mother for all to examine and criticize, but rather to make the point that the theology of Protestants varies widely from group to group.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 06:25:01 PM by HandmaidenofGod » Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2011, 06:30:48 PM »

And I'm saying for those of us who believe there can be a certain "little o" orthodoxy common to Protestants, your point is not really convincing for just this reason. We would say based on the above that the status of your Messianic aunt as an actual Christian is in question (depending on specifics).
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,297



« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2011, 12:47:38 AM »

Protestantism explained.

At the beginning there was a company named Airbus that produced a valid Airbus manual used to build an Airbus plane that would flie safely. Everybody was happy.

1500 from this company some people used their mind to build their own plane. They called themself Protestants and used their mind to build their own plane they called Protestant Airbus. So at beginning they said that the original manual is false. First thing they were thinking as to why the glasses on the window are neccesary and they tought that these glasses impact people viewing the outside.

So hammer please said Luther, and Calvin and smash....all windows gone. This is how we do protest. The new plane while having the Engine thus being able to fly, would not protect the lifes of passengers so it was almost useless. In religion protestantism  has lost eternal life.

Then many groups were formed starting debates saying engine only, or we believe wings only or some other meanless crap. Some were adding bigger wings saying we are true since it is Wings only and such we have the bigger wings and such.

The Protest and revolutions continued and some extravangt groups took engine out and smashed it.  They were from the Wings only group that took their name seriously.

What can I say more.

Cute!

Not particularly referring to reality is what I'd call it.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't follow what the "windows" are supposed to represent in this little parable.  I doubt that they're supposed to mean the corruption in the hierarchy or the sale of indulgences for example. 

It also doesn't seem to relate to much that is really having to do with any particular Church or religious movement.   The OP hasn't shown that he/she really knows *anything* about some real history of the Reformation or what real Anglicans or Lutherans or etc etc believe and do.

Sorry for being grumpy

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2011, 12:57:40 AM »

I think he means the windshield is tradition and the Fathers so as to prevent a wild proliferation of Bible interpretations and schisms.
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,297



« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2011, 01:14:12 AM »

I think he means the windshield is tradition and the Fathers so as to prevent a wild proliferation of Bible interpretations and schisms.

There are some allegories and metaphors that can be easy to understand.... windshields/windows as being "tradition" is one that I don't really see.   Wink
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2011, 01:23:44 AM »

I think he means the windshield is tradition and the Fathers so as to prevent a wild proliferation of Bible interpretations and schisms.

There are some allegories and metaphors that can be easy to understand.... windshields/windows as being "tradition" is one that I don't really see.   Wink
Well, I guess you could compare the wind that is shielded is "every wind of doctrine" or the demons which attempt to inspire false doctrine.
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,297



« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2011, 02:10:44 AM »

I think he means the windshield is tradition and the Fathers so as to prevent a wild proliferation of Bible interpretations and schisms.

There are some allegories and metaphors that can be easy to understand.... windshields/windows as being "tradition" is one that I don't really see.   Wink
Well, I guess you could compare the wind that is shielded is "every wind of doctrine" or the demons which attempt to inspire false doctrine.

Ummm well, you *could* I guess.  But it still seems ahhhh really really forced.

 Wink
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2011, 04:08:41 AM »

I think he means the windshield is tradition and the Fathers so as to prevent a wild proliferation of Bible interpretations and schisms.

There are some allegories and metaphors that can be easy to understand.... windshields/windows as being "tradition" is one that I don't really see.   Wink
Well, I guess you could compare the wind that is shielded is "every wind of doctrine" or the demons which attempt to inspire false doctrine.

Ummm well, you *could* I guess.  But it still seems ahhhh really really forced.

 Wink
Yeah, I suppose. I don't support the analogy, anyway.
Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,474



« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2011, 05:51:43 AM »

I think he means the windshield is tradition and the Fathers so as to prevent a wild proliferation of Bible interpretations and schisms.

There are some allegories and metaphors that can be easy to understand.... windshields/windows as being "tradition" is one that I don't really see.   Wink
Well, I guess you could compare the wind that is shielded is "every wind of doctrine" or the demons which attempt to inspire false doctrine.

Ummm well, you *could* I guess.  But it still seems ahhhh really really forced.

 Wink
Yeah, I suppose. I don't support the analogy, anyway.

Blasphemy! I, like Orthonorm, would like to invite all wings-only folk back to the original airplane of salvation. Engine-only heretics, however, need not apply.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 05:57:02 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 11,934


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2011, 06:55:12 AM »

I like airports, but I don't like flying.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Protestant, for now...
Posts: 3,106


« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2011, 09:32:34 AM »

I think he means the windshield is tradition and the Fathers so as to prevent a wild proliferation of Bible interpretations and schisms.

There are some allegories and metaphors that can be easy to understand.... windshields/windows as being "tradition" is one that I don't really see.   Wink
Well, I guess you could compare the wind that is shielded is "every wind of doctrine" or the demons which attempt to inspire false doctrine.

Ummm well, you *could* I guess.  But it still seems ahhhh really really forced.

 Wink
Yeah, I suppose. I don't support the analogy, anyway.

Blasphemy! I, like Orthonorm, would like to invite all wings-only folk back to the original airplane of salvation. Engine-only heretics, however, need not apply.
laugh Pasadians unite!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 09:33:00 AM by Volnutt » Logged

I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2011, 11:54:57 AM »

Jesus came to tell everyone that keeping up maintenance on that pesky engine wasn't necessary any more. Many wouldn't listen and preferred to cling to the old style airbus. Wings-only HS inside, doesn't cancel out the old, it's simply an upgrade.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,840


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2011, 12:53:16 PM »

Jesus came to tell everyone that keeping up maintenance on that pesky engine wasn't necessary any more. Many wouldn't listen and preferred to cling to the old style airbus. Wings-only HS inside, doesn't cancel out the old, it's simply an upgrade.
So I guess Paul went around teaching new pilots who had authority and building functioning airports because he had cash to blow......

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2011, 03:04:48 PM »

This thread is reaching levels of awesomeness that bring me to tears of joy!

And LOL @ FP's faith.

Awesome. I love the pasadogeltics!

Really, we gotta start merchandising this whole Pasadi thing.

Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.156 seconds with 72 queries.