Topic: Serbian Involvement in the Wars of the Balkans in the 1990's

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Wait a minute, I thought Hagia Sophia has been a mosque already for hundreds of years, and was even inaugurated again as a mosque after restorations in 1849? Did I miss something?

Silly steppe barbarians; Hagia Sophia is for Christians.

Hey, that's yurt dwelling, yogurt eating steppe barbarians to you.

Ah yes, racism is the fitting response of Christians.  

Nothing wrong with what they said. Realistically the Turks have done too many evil things (and continue to) to deserve any dignified Christian response of the like you prefer.  

Racism is never appropriate, and it only adds more fuel for the fire. Two wrongs NEVER make a right, period. Just because some Turks have misbehaved, doesn't mean all Turks agree.  Are all Orthodox the same as those Serbs who committed genocide? Are all Orthodox interested in Tsarist pogroms against the Jews? See that knife cuts both ways, which is why its better to avoid it altogether through peace, love, mutual fellowship, and understanding.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[serb1389]

 Are all Orthodox the same as those Serbs who committed genocide?

genocide may be the "status quo" word used by media, but i've never seen the evidence to support the use of such a word.  Atrocities, sure, mass killing, definitely, but genocide?  I don't think so. 

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

 

Warning: Any attempt to state the equivalent of "racism is no joking matter" will be met by a ferocious eye-rolling emoticon.

I expected better from you, Racism is always no joking matter, and defending crypto-racism is not a joke, it is just stupid and divisive, especially over such sensitive issues as the Greeks versus the Turks.

 Are all Orthodox the same as those Serbs who committed genocide?

genocide may be the "status quo" word used by media, but i've never seen the evidence to support the use of such a word.  Atrocities, sure, mass killing, definitely, but genocide?  I don't think so. 

my mistake, I didn't realize that Mass killings, atrocities, and war-crimes were soundly Orthodox.  I stand by my statement, and any Serbs who disagree can PM me, repentance in the goal of the Church, and the first step is that folks need to own up to their mistakes.  As an Orthodox Christian, I HAVE TO OWN up to what Serbs did, shouldn't they themselves do the same? Denial is a terrifying thing when it comes to mass murder and war crimes, apologies go a lot further in God's Grace. As an American, I also own up to the war-crimes my own civilization committed and continues to commit, its not as hard as it seems to be realistic rather than idealistic when it comes to these literally horrifying matters.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[primuspilus]

I HAVE TO OWN up to what Serbs did

No you dont. Did you do it?

*sigh* just another race thread evidently.

[akimori makoto]

 Are all Orthodox the same as those Serbs who committed genocide?

genocide may be the "status quo" word used by media, but i've never seen the evidence to support the use of such a word.  Atrocities, sure, mass killing, definitely, but genocide?  I don't think so. 

Genocide is one of "those" words we just have to expunge from the language. It means nothing and everything at the same time.

[primuspilus]

 Are all Orthodox the same as those Serbs who committed genocide?

genocide may be the "status quo" word used by media, but i've never seen the evidence to support the use of such a word.  Atrocities, sure, mass killing, definitely, but genocide?  I don't think so. 

Genocide is one of "those" words we just have to expunge from the language. It means nothing and everything at the same time.

Kind of like "comprehensive"

PP

[HabteSelassie]

greetings in that divine and most precious name of our lord and savior Jesus Christ!

I HAVE TO OWN up to what Serbs did

No you dont. Did you do it?

*sigh* just another race thread evidently.

But, but I am both Orthodox and an adult.  When an immature person walks by a mess, they simply keep walking an assume somebody else will clean it up.  Adults on the other hand, are mature enough that there is never anyone else but ourselves, and it is nothing is every anyone else's responsibility aside from our own.  So the adult in the room sees the mess and simply cleans it up without asking too many questions or making too many accusations, after all, only cleaning up the mess will clean it up, not arguing about whose responsibility belongs to whom.  So if I am Orthodox, and Orthodox Christians committed mass murder and war-crimes, or genocide by some people's definition, don't I as an adult also have to own up to that? If it is really One, Holy, Universal, Apostolic Church, and somewhere in this Universe there are Orthodox Christians perpetrating such horrors, aren't I complicit as Orthodox? Either that, or its is not One Church, but if I pray for the Serbian jurisdiction as if it is my own, I also have to own up to their tragedies and guilt as if it were my own as well.  This is called being an adult.  As an American, I didn't kill any Indians either, but growing up in California I have inherited that legacy and so long as I deny this and remain unrepentant, then the blood remains on my hands.  The worst thing we could do in Orthodox is to say, "its not me, its them" because that goes directly against the deeply rooted concept of the Oneness of the Church.

Again, if folks have things to discuss with me about this, they can PM, I don't want this thread to erupt like my last ones.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Byron]

greetings in that divine and most precious name of our lord and savior Jesus Christ!

I HAVE TO OWN up to what Serbs did

No you dont. Did you do it?

*sigh* just another race thread evidently.

But, but I am both Orthodox and an adult.  When an immature person walks by a mess, they simply keep walking an assume somebody else will clean it up.  Adults on the other hand, are mature enough that there is never anyone else but ourselves, and it is nothing is every anyone else's responsibility aside from our own.  So the adult in the room sees the mess and simply cleans it up without asking too many questions or making too many accusations, after all, only cleaning up the mess will clean it up, not arguing about whose responsibility belongs to whom.  So if I am Orthodox, and Orthodox Christians committed mass murder and war-crimes, or genocide by some people's definition, don't I as an adult also have to own up to that? If it is really One, Holy, Universal, Apostolic Church, and somewhere in this Universe there are Orthodox Christians perpetrating such horrors, aren't I complicit as Orthodox? Either that, or its is not One Church, but if I pray for the Serbian jurisdiction as if it is my own, I also have to own up to their tragedies and guilt as if it were my own as well.  This is called being an adult.  As an American, I didn't kill any Indians either, but growing up in California I have inherited that legacy and so long as I deny this and remain unrepentant, then the blood remains on my hands.  The worst thing we could do in Orthodox is to say, "its not me, its them" because that goes directly against the deeply rooted concept of the Oneness of the Church.

Again, if folks have things to discuss with me about this, they can PM, I don't want this thread to erupt like my last ones.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

What are Ethiopian forces doing in Somalia? To the vast majority of Somalis they are invaders and occupirers. Why was there a war with Eritrea? You blame the Serbs yet your own countries forces are constantly at war with others.

Forget the Serbs start praying for your own people.

Why don't you also condemn the Croats for ethnically cleansing all Serbs out of Croatia?

As for the Serbs, i say better a Serbian Orthodox state in the Balkans than a Muslim one.

[BoredMeeting]

 Are all Orthodox the same as those Serbs who committed genocide?

Those were the Serb Communists and their paramilitary thugs (all left-wing governments employ them to retain power) doing the killing, not the Serb Christians.

Why would you bear false witness against the Serbian Orthodox?

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Are all Orthodox the same as those Serbs who committed genocide?

Those were the Serb Communists and their paramilitary thugs (all left-wing governments employ them to retain power) doing the killing, not the Serb Christians.

Why would you bear false witness against the Serbian Orthodox?

During the troubles, my wife kept asking me if the Serbian Orthodox Church was doing something to stop the atrocities that were being committed against the Croatians and the Bosnians. I told her repeatedly that Patriarch Pavle of blessed memory was doing all that he could do to stop the atrocities. The problem was all those Serbian fighters who sported Orthodox crosses. I tried to tell her that nationalism and the Church had been a good thing when the Christians of the Ottoman Empire had tried to liberate themselves, but she kept pointing out that the circumstances were vastly different.

BTW, genocide is too strong a term for what happened there; I would think that "ethnic cleansing" is a much better term as the idea was not to kill the entire race but to drive them away through terror (the usual toxic combination of murder, rape, torture, arson and forced relocation) so that "Serbian territories" would be purer.

[serb1389]

I think we have diverged the thread long enough (myself included) .  If you are interested in me splitting the thread to discuss this, I would be happy to do so, or merge it into one of the many other Serb threads. 

Please return to your regularly scheduled programing.   

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am just posting this to clarify a few things. Firstly, this is not an "us against them" matter, so lets not just divulge in finger pointing.  Secondly, I did not condemn the entire Serbian Orthodox communion as being complicit with genocide, and I apologize if folks made that inference, it was not my intentions.  However, I do not have to argue what is fact, that some Serbian Christians were either actively participating in, or were at least complicit or sympathizing with the war-crimes and terror committed by the Serbian para-militaries. These kinds of controversies continue to divide the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as well, over accountability, but just because they are divisive should mean that we can ignore them or sugar coat them, that is not sincere repentance, that is not owning up to anything but kicking the can down the road. Lastly, by genocide I was not trying to suggest that some Serbs were trying to eradicate all of the Bosnians, however, clearly "ethnic-cleansing" a word which was coined by that regime, target victims because of their ethnicity, and that is genocide.  When mass-killing targeting because of ethnicity is used as a tactic of war, that is genocide, regardless if the intentions are to kill the entire race, or just a few members there of.

Sorry to be dragging out such a sensitive issue, but even if the truth hurts, we as adults should embrace the truth in all matters, sensitive or not.

I pray for me, them, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[serb1389]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am just posting this to clarify a few things. Firstly, this is not an "us against them" matter, so lets not just divulge in finger pointing.  

how is it not?  arn't we finger pointing?  I have not once heard, read, or seen you point a finger at anyone other than the Serbs...so...

Secondly, I did not condemn the entire Serbian Orthodox communion as being complicit with genocide, and I apologize if folks made that inference, it was not my intentions. 

good to know

However, I do not have to argue what is fact, that some Serbian Christians were either actively participating in, or were at least complicit or sympathizing with the war-crimes and terror committed by the Serbian para-militaries.

War happened.  This means that war crimes happened.  Sympathizing with war-crimes & terror are something none of us should do. 

However, you do add here again the key word.  Serbian.  I believe it takes 2 to tango.  Could be wrong about that. 

These kinds of controversies continue to divide the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as well, over accountability, but just because they are divisive should mean that we can ignore them or sugar coat them, that is not sincere repentance, that is not owning up to anything but kicking the can down the road.

I'm not here to ignore.  Neither am I here to put up with Serb-bashing. 

Owning up to what exactly. 

Lastly, by genocide I was not trying to suggest that some Serbs were trying to eradicate all of the Bosnians, however, clearly "ethnic-cleansing" a word which was coined by that regime, target victims because of their ethnicity, and that is genocide.  When mass-killing targeting because of ethnicity is used as a tactic of war, that is genocide, regardless if the intentions are to kill the entire race, or just a few members there of.

Your definition of genocide and mine are very different.  And just to throw a burr in your argument, most of the war was fought on religious grounds once the political clout went out the window.  So in actuality it was a holy-war, not a genocide, by your definition. 

Sorry to be dragging out such a sensitive issue, but even if the truth hurts, we as adults should embrace the truth in all matters, sensitive or not.

I pray for me, them, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I split the topic, so feel free to drag it out all you want.  The truth does hurt, and we should embrace the truth.  Which one though.  Yours, or mine. 

We should all be praying instead of grinding this axe again.  But since you brought it up, i'm not going to sit idle & let you demean my people, for any reason. 

[BoredMeeting]

 However, I do not have to argue what is fact, that some Serbian Christians were either actively participating in, or were at least complicit or sympathizing with the war-crimes and terror committed by the Serbian para-militaries.

You forgot a third option, that the Serbian Christians, who had been the primary targets of an anti-Christian campaign carried out by the Communist paramilitary units, lacked the ability to resist their own government.

Those are also the people currently struggling to survive in the Serbian ghettos in Kosovo, beset by both the terrorist KLA and the misguided NATO troops.

[LizaSymonenko]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am just posting this to clarify a few things. Firstly, this is not an "us against them" matter, so lets not just divulge in finger pointing.  

how is it not?  arn't we finger pointing?  I have not once heard, read, or seen you point a finger at anyone other than the Serbs...so...

Secondly, I did not condemn the entire Serbian Orthodox communion as being complicit with genocide, and I apologize if folks made that inference, it was not my intentions. 

good to know

However, I do not have to argue what is fact, that some Serbian Christians were either actively participating in, or were at least complicit or sympathizing with the war-crimes and terror committed by the Serbian para-militaries.

War happened.  This means that war crimes happened.  Sympathizing with war-crimes & terror are something none of us should do. 

However, you do add here again the key word.  Serbian.  I believe it takes 2 to tango.  Could be wrong about that. 

These kinds of controversies continue to divide the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as well, over accountability, but just because they are divisive should mean that we can ignore them or sugar coat them, that is not sincere repentance, that is not owning up to anything but kicking the can down the road.

I'm not here to ignore.  Neither am I here to put up with Serb-bashing. 

Owning up to what exactly. 

Lastly, by genocide I was not trying to suggest that some Serbs were trying to eradicate all of the Bosnians, however, clearly "ethnic-cleansing" a word which was coined by that regime, target victims because of their ethnicity, and that is genocide.  When mass-killing targeting because of ethnicity is used as a tactic of war, that is genocide, regardless if the intentions are to kill the entire race, or just a few members there of.

Your definition of genocide and mine are very different.  And just to throw a burr in your argument, most of the war was fought on religious grounds once the political clout went out the window.  So in actuality it was a holy-war, not a genocide, by your definition. 

Sorry to be dragging out such a sensitive issue, but even if the truth hurts, we as adults should embrace the truth in all matters, sensitive or not.

I pray for me, them, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I split the topic, so feel free to drag it out all you want.  The truth does hurt, and we should embrace the truth.  Which one though.  Yours, or mine. 

We should all be praying instead of grinding this axe again.  But since you brought it up, i'm not going to sit idle & let you demean my people, for any reason. 

Father, I am with you!  You are feeling just like I do when folks attack Ukraine.

Folks you need to realize there is a difference between Serbian people and the Serbian Orthodox Church.  People, in this case Serbs, will defend what is theirs!  It was their land, their families, their churches....who of you would sit idly by and have others come and take your home, rape your women, desecrate your churches and just sit there, turning the other cheek?

Serbian Orthodoxy teaches peace, however, people are people, and we are wired to defend what we love.

If we were all as peace-loving as we should be, this forum would be a rather boring place...

We don't use weapons, but, sometimes the words bandied about are just as hurtful.

Peace is in Heaven.  May we all one day know such peace.

[Cognomen]

I understand that this is a delicate topic all around, but it seems there are some inconsistent points argued (on these forums, not necessarily this thread).

Acknowledging a distinction between Serbs committing atrocities and the Serbian Church similarly means that "the Turks" can't be blamed for anti-Orthodox actions and persecutions.  Perhaps that's what Habte was getting at in response to the seemingly (although I argue they were misperceived) anti-Turkish comments.  In other words, when it's the Serbs, Ukranians, Greeks, Russians doing something wrong, it's important to clarify the differentiation between actions and the respective church, but when it's Turks, Arabs, Muslims, etc. it's apparently okay to refer to them as a whole.

Confusing matters, when particularly ethnic churches are accused of mixing nationalism with faith, e.g. Greek flags in parishes, commemorations of primarily secular events, etc. it is argued that these cultures are indelibly intertwined and it is impossible to separate culture from faith. 

We can't have it both ways, and while I don't want to go down the ethnophyletism accusation path, it's easy to see how peoples can be clumped in or viewed as a whole.  We do it all the time, but I think it's important to identify distinctions.

[LizaSymonenko]

Well, the only difference here is that Orthodox clergy stress peace, and Islamic imams don't.

I do believe that Islam teaches that the non-muslims should be converted or destroyed.

No?

If that is the case, then the Turkish people were actually doing what their "faith" taught them to do....and thereby, the two can be lumped together.

[orthonorm]

I understand that this is a delicate topic all around, but it seems there are some inconsistent points argued (on these forums, not necessarily this thread).

Acknowledging a distinction between Serbs committing atrocities and the Serbian Church similarly means that "the Turks" can't be blamed for anti-Orthodox actions and persecutions.  Perhaps that's what Habte was getting at in response to the seemingly (although I argue they were misperceived) anti-Turkish comments.  In other words, when it's the Serbs, Ukranians, Greeks, Russians doing something wrong, it's important to clarify the differentiation between actions and the respective church, but when it's Turks, Arabs, Muslims, etc. it's apparently okay to refer to them as a whole.

Confusing matters, when particularly ethnic churches are accused of mixing nationalism with faith, e.g. Greek flags in parishes, commemorations of primarily secular events, etc. it is argued that these cultures are indelibly intertwined and it is impossible to separate culture from faith. 

We can't have it both ways, and while I don't want to go down the ethnophyletism accusation path, it's easy to see how peoples can be clumped in or viewed as a whole.  We do it all the time, but I think it's important to identify distinctions.

Good for you.

Frankly, I would love the divorce between Christianity and ethnic, nationalistic, racist, whatever pride.

But some folks think it is Christian to marry the two and kill others over it.

Or think it is a necessary "evil" in this world and spend time arguing who did it in a more Christian manner.

No thanks.

[Cognomen]

Well, the only difference here is that Orthodox clergy stress peace, and Islamic imams don't.
I do believe that Islam teaches that the non-muslims should be converted or destroyed.
No?
If that is the case, then the Turkish people were actually doing what their "faith" taught them to do....and thereby, the two can be lumped together.

I think in many cases that is a notable difference.  Certainly some Islamic leaders more than others.  I share the belief that the core (and correct) teachings regarding violence in Christianity and Islam are quite different.  That's another story though.

That said, much of the recent persecution facing the Church in Turkey has come from a largely secular Turkish government.  Yet we tend to blur the line between the Turks and their government.

In the case of the Byzantines, this intertwining lead to some bad things as well.  They were quite nasty to folks inside and neighboring their Empire.  How can we differentiate the Orthodox from that Empire, especially when certain very violent leaders are recognized as saints?

It's definitely not easy to sort out, but that's just my take.

[serb1389]

I understand that this is a delicate topic all around, but it seems there are some inconsistent points argued (on these forums, not necessarily this thread).

Acknowledging a distinction between Serbs committing atrocities and the Serbian Church similarly means that "the Turks" can't be blamed for anti-Orthodox actions and persecutions.  Perhaps that's what Habte was getting at in response to the seemingly (although I argue they were misperceived) anti-Turkish comments.  In other words, when it's the Serbs, Ukranians, Greeks, Russians doing something wrong, it's important to clarify the differentiation between actions and the respective church, but when it's Turks, Arabs, Muslims, etc. it's apparently okay to refer to them as a whole.

Confusing matters, when particularly ethnic churches are accused of mixing nationalism with faith, e.g. Greek flags in parishes, commemorations of primarily secular events, etc. it is argued that these cultures are indelibly intertwined and it is impossible to separate culture from faith. 

We can't have it both ways, and while I don't want to go down the ethnophyletism accusation path, it's easy to see how peoples can be clumped in or viewed as a whole.  We do it all the time, but I think it's important to identify distinctions.

Cognoman,

I completely agree with you and even Habte on this.  There is a difference between those who lived during the wars & were recipients of its evil, and those who partook of it (either by force or will). 

My issue is that in this entire conversation we have not once mentioned the WORD "croat/croatian" or "bosnian muslim"

I have absolutely no problem understanding that the Serbs did some bad things during the wars...trust me.  I do have a problem with antagonism towards one group & not seeing this thing from an objective perspective.

I also have a problem with the seemingly one sided blame game

I also have a problem with the idea that the serbs were responsible for the bulk of the killing

there are many many many more things that I have a problem with.  Most of them stem from the one-sidedness of this whole thing. 

In my mind...everyone is to blame, and most of all the Devil.  He is the one we should be posting about & praying about, not the Serbs. 

[orthonorm]

My issue is that in this entire conversation we have not once mentioned the WORD "croat/croatian" or "bosnian muslim"

[. . . .]

In my mind...everyone is to blame, and most of all the Devil.  He is the one we should be posting about & praying about, not the Serbs. 

I'll do it. I've seen Serbians and Bosnian Muslims whose lives were shattered by what happened and the pain will carry for generations to come.

I had Serbian and Bosnian pals. Never together in the same room. After enough drinks (yes the Muslims drank), the pain and words while spoken were different in accent, sounded nearly the same.

No one can disagree with your last statement.

We are all are responsible. To one degree or another.

And while we must seek justice in this age, we will never find it.

Lord have mercy!

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I understand that this is a delicate topic all around, but it seems there are some inconsistent points argued (on these forums, not necessarily this thread).

Acknowledging a distinction between Serbs committing atrocities and the Serbian Church similarly means that "the Turks" can't be blamed for anti-Orthodox actions and persecutions.  Perhaps that's what Habte was getting at in response to the seemingly (although I argue they were misperceived) anti-Turkish comments.  In other words, when it's the Serbs, Ukranians, Greeks, Russians doing something wrong, it's important to clarify the differentiation between actions and the respective church, but when it's Turks, Arabs, Muslims, etc. it's apparently okay to refer to them as a whole.

Confusing matters, when particularly ethnic churches are accused of mixing nationalism with faith, e.g. Greek flags in parishes, commemorations of primarily secular events, etc. it is argued that these cultures are indelibly intertwined and it is impossible to separate culture from faith. 

We can't have it both ways, and while I don't want to go down the ethnophyletism accusation path, it's easy to see how peoples can be clumped in or viewed as a whole.  We do it all the time, but I think it's important to identify distinctions.

Cognoman,

I completely agree with you and even Habte on this.  There is a difference between those who lived during the wars & were recipients of its evil, and those who partook of it (either by force or will). 

My issue is that in this entire conversation we have not once mentioned the WORD "croat/croatian" or "bosnian muslim"

I have absolutely no problem understanding that the Serbs did some bad things during the wars...trust me.  I do have a problem with antagonism towards one group & not seeing this thing from an objective perspective.

I also have a problem with the seemingly one sided blame game

I also have a problem with the idea that the serbs were responsible for the bulk of the killing

there are many many many more things that I have a problem with.  Most of them stem from the one-sidedness of this whole thing. 

In my mind...everyone is to blame, and most of all the Devil.  He is the one we should be posting about & praying about, not the Serbs. 

Brother how hasn't been objective here? When have folks not affirmed that atrocities were committed on both sides? However as I expressed in my PM too you, that sentiment is dangerously close to apologetics for actions mutually beyond apology.  It is ABSOLUTELY IRRELEVANT if both Bosnians and Serbs committed mutual war-crimes and mass-killings against each other (which indeed did happen) because two horrifying wrongs never make a right.  We simply don't need to examine the Serbian war-crimes in the context of retaliation or revenge, because these two factors to not exonerate or excuse the inexcusable guilt of the guilty parties on either side. No one is demonizing or demeaning Serbia, but we are condemning a minority of Serbs who factually committed mass-killings, and there is never an excuse for this under any circumstances.  Further, we of Serbian history are also Orthodox, so can't we in Orthodox be the bigger person and own up to our own wrongs without having to point fingers around or make excuses?

I would like then to state very clearly for all to read and resolve the issue here out, NO ONE IS TRYING TO DEMONIZE ALL THE SERBS.  NO ONE IS TRYING TO DEMONIZE THE SERBIAN CHURCH.  However no one here is either trying to excuse, exonerate, vindicate, or even understand those minority of folks who happened to be Serbs and some who were also Christians who did commit these acts. Please folks, try not to get so defensive, I am not trying to point fingers and anyone but the guilty, and only the guilty need express any voice of protest  other than an "Amen."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Shanghaiski]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

 

Warning: Any attempt to state the equivalent of "racism is no joking matter" will be met by a ferocious eye-rolling emoticon.

I expected better from you, Racism is always no joking matter, and defending crypto-racism is not a joke, it is just stupid and divisive, especially over such sensitive issues as the Greeks versus the Turks.

 Are all Orthodox the same as those Serbs who committed genocide?

genocide may be the "status quo" word used by media, but i've never seen the evidence to support the use of such a word.  Atrocities, sure, mass killing, definitely, but genocide?  I don't think so. 

my mistake, I didn't realize that Mass killings, atrocities, and war-crimes were soundly Orthodox.  I stand by my statement, and any Serbs who disagree can PM me, repentance in the goal of the Church, and the first step is that folks need to own up to their mistakes.  As an Orthodox Christian, I HAVE TO OWN up to what Serbs did, shouldn't they themselves do the same? Denial is a terrifying thing when it comes to mass murder and war crimes, apologies go a lot further in God's Grace. As an American, I also own up to the war-crimes my own civilization committed and continues to commit, its not as hard as it seems to be realistic rather than idealistic when it comes to these literally horrifying matters.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Most of the folks who committed atrocities in the Balkans in the 1990s may have darkened the doors of their local churches but keep in mind that they were not coming out of a culture of piety but communism and that political score settling was what the game was about, not religion. Religion was an excuse, as it often is in many other conflicts. You don't have to answer for what people you don't even know did in the past. Worry about what you yourself do and what those for whom you bear responsibility do. Also, while what was done by Serbs, Croats, and Bosnian Muslims was often criminal and horrific, for it to be genocide there must be grand scale--like the Nazi genocide of the Jews or the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. Genocide is systematic, orchestrated, and results in the blotting out of a large percentage of the population. What happened in the 1990s was small scale compared to WWII in the Balkans.

[Shanghaiski]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I understand that this is a delicate topic all around, but it seems there are some inconsistent points argued (on these forums, not necessarily this thread).

Acknowledging a distinction between Serbs committing atrocities and the Serbian Church similarly means that "the Turks" can't be blamed for anti-Orthodox actions and persecutions.  Perhaps that's what Habte was getting at in response to the seemingly (although I argue they were misperceived) anti-Turkish comments.  In other words, when it's the Serbs, Ukranians, Greeks, Russians doing something wrong, it's important to clarify the differentiation between actions and the respective church, but when it's Turks, Arabs, Muslims, etc. it's apparently okay to refer to them as a whole.

Confusing matters, when particularly ethnic churches are accused of mixing nationalism with faith, e.g. Greek flags in parishes, commemorations of primarily secular events, etc. it is argued that these cultures are indelibly intertwined and it is impossible to separate culture from faith. 

We can't have it both ways, and while I don't want to go down the ethnophyletism accusation path, it's easy to see how peoples can be clumped in or viewed as a whole.  We do it all the time, but I think it's important to identify distinctions.

Cognoman,

I completely agree with you and even Habte on this.  There is a difference between those who lived during the wars & were recipients of its evil, and those who partook of it (either by force or will). 

My issue is that in this entire conversation we have not once mentioned the WORD "croat/croatian" or "bosnian muslim"

I have absolutely no problem understanding that the Serbs did some bad things during the wars...trust me.  I do have a problem with antagonism towards one group & not seeing this thing from an objective perspective.

I also have a problem with the seemingly one sided blame game

I also have a problem with the idea that the serbs were responsible for the bulk of the killing

there are many many many more things that I have a problem with.  Most of them stem from the one-sidedness of this whole thing. 

In my mind...everyone is to blame, and most of all the Devil.  He is the one we should be posting about & praying about, not the Serbs. 

Brother how hasn't been objective here? When have folks not affirmed that atrocities were committed on both sides? However as I expressed in my PM too you, that sentiment is dangerously close to apologetics for actions mutually beyond apology.  It is ABSOLUTELY IRRELEVANT if both Bosnians and Serbs committed mutual war-crimes and mass-killings against each other (which indeed did happen) because two horrifying wrongs never make a right.  We simply don't need to examine the Serbian war-crimes in the context of retaliation or revenge, because these two factors to not exonerate or excuse the inexcusable guilt of the guilty parties on either side. No one is demonizing or demeaning Serbia, but we are condemning a minority of Serbs who factually committed mass-killings, and there is never an excuse for this under any circumstances.  Further, we of Serbian history are also Orthodox, so can't we in Orthodox be the bigger person and own up to our own wrongs without having to point fingers around or make excuses?

I would like then to state very clearly for all to read and resolve the issue here out, NO ONE IS TRYING TO DEMONIZE ALL THE SERBS.  NO ONE IS TRYING TO DEMONIZE THE SERBIAN CHURCH.  However no one here is either trying to excuse, exonerate, vindicate, or even understand those minority of folks who happened to be Serbs and some who were also Christians who did commit these acts. Please folks, try not to get so defensive, I am not trying to point fingers and anyone but the guilty, and only the guilty need express any voice of protest  other than an "Amen."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Those Serbs who committed war crimes and atrocities of any kind were anathematized by Serbian Patriarch Pavle.

I can understand the defensiveness of the Serbs, however. They have been the victims of horrible press for about 100 years. For some odd reason, the West has always supported the Turks and their allies the Bosnian Muslims, who were largely apostates from Orthodoxy and fanatical converts to Mohamedanism. From the time of the Ottoman conquest, they had been on the front lines of Islam, living in peace and prosperity as the Serb peasants of the countryside suffered Ottoman rule--the lack of rights, the child tax, etc. This sort of antagonism continued in WWI and WWII. To make statements on the history is to enter into it. Expect to clarify your positions.

[Cognomen]

I agree that the Serbs have suffered from terrible PR.  Serbs definitely suffered in these conflicts, but we're aware of how we collectively like to assign blame to one party. 

Still, I must argue with the second part of the point below: 

...the Bosnian Muslims, who were largely apostates from Orthodoxy and fanatical converts to Mohamedanism.

Most are about as un-fanatical as imaginable. 

[orthonorm]

I agree that the Serbs have suffered from terrible PR.  Serbs definitely suffered in these conflicts, but we're aware of how we collectively like to assign blame to one party. 

Still, I must argue with the second part of the point below: 

...the Bosnian Muslims, who were largely apostates from Orthodoxy and fanatical converts to Mohamedanism.

Most are about as un-fanatical as imaginable. 

I was going to write exactly this. Every Bosnian Muslim I knew: drank, smoked, ate pork, you can use your imagination.

They were way less Muslim than the Turks.

[Fr. George]

my mistake, I didn't realize that Mass killings, atrocities, and war-crimes were soundly Orthodox.

The above is sign #1 that you're not interested in anything beyond using the forum as a bully pulpit.  Take your straw men away, they're sullying the good points that you're trying to make.

[Shanghaiski]

I agree that the Serbs have suffered from terrible PR.  Serbs definitely suffered in these conflicts, but we're aware of how we collectively like to assign blame to one party. 

Still, I must argue with the second part of the point below: 

...the Bosnian Muslims, who were largely apostates from Orthodoxy and fanatical converts to Mohamedanism.

Most are about as un-fanatical as imaginable. 

I was speaking historically. The Turks used the Bosnian Muslims to oppress the Christians and get them to convert through force and privileges. Also, Izetbegovic is on record for wanting to create an Iranian-style government in Bosnia.

[orthonorm]

I agree that the Serbs have suffered from terrible PR.  Serbs definitely suffered in these conflicts, but we're aware of how we collectively like to assign blame to one party. 

Still, I must argue with the second part of the point below: 

...the Bosnian Muslims, who were largely apostates from Orthodoxy and fanatical converts to Mohamedanism.

Most are about as un-fanatical as imaginable. 

I was speaking historically. The Turks used the Bosnian Muslims to oppress the Christians and get them to convert through force and privileges. Also, Izetbegovic is on record for wanting to create an Iranian-style government in Bosnia.

I ain't disagreeing with the historical stuff. I just know what I saw first hand from the fall out into where I was living.

I have no context into which to place the whole mess other than the pain I saw in the Bosnians and Serbs I knew. Stuff that will last lifetimes.

[Shanghaiski]

I agree that the Serbs have suffered from terrible PR.  Serbs definitely suffered in these conflicts, but we're aware of how we collectively like to assign blame to one party. 

Still, I must argue with the second part of the point below: 

...the Bosnian Muslims, who were largely apostates from Orthodoxy and fanatical converts to Mohamedanism.

Most are about as un-fanatical as imaginable. 

I was speaking historically. The Turks used the Bosnian Muslims to oppress the Christians and get them to convert through force and privileges. Also, Izetbegovic is on record for wanting to create an Iranian-style government in Bosnia.

I ain't disagreeing with the historical stuff. I just know what I saw first hand from the fall out into where I was living.

I have no context into which to place the whole mess other than the pain I saw in the Bosnians and Serbs I knew. Stuff that will last lifetimes.

Indeed. I have met very nice, non-fanatical Bosnian Muslims and Turks as well. However, historic memory seems to perpetuate itself among a certain element of society, usually as an excuse to grab power or prevent future peril, real or imagined.

[vamrat]

I agree that the Serbs have suffered from terrible PR.  Serbs definitely suffered in these conflicts, but we're aware of how we collectively like to assign blame to one party. 

Still, I must argue with the second part of the point below: 

...the Bosnian Muslims, who were largely apostates from Orthodoxy and fanatical converts to Mohamedanism.

Most are about as un-fanatical as imaginable. 

I was speaking historically. The Turks used the Bosnian Muslims to oppress the Christians and get them to convert through force and privileges. Also, Izetbegovic is on record for wanting to create an Iranian-style government in Bosnia.

I ain't disagreeing with the historical stuff. I just know what I saw first hand from the fall out into where I was living.

I have no context into which to place the whole mess other than the pain I saw in the Bosnians and Serbs I knew. Stuff that will last lifetimes.

I'm pretty sure that is one of the constants in wars.  The people who survive them are always scared.  Serbs, Bosnians, Germans, Vietnamese, Cubans...the people are all the same.  I'm pretty sure that the soldiers and civilians have more in common with their counterparts on the other side than they do with the politicians who are telling them to do the killing or are consigning them and their families to be raped, shot, and robbed.  If the soldiers were to meet up mid charge and just decide to stop, turn around, and kill all their respective leaders, I think you'd find that the war would end in a lasting and fair peace...something we really never have had in human history.

[orthonorm]

I agree that the Serbs have suffered from terrible PR.  Serbs definitely suffered in these conflicts, but we're aware of how we collectively like to assign blame to one party. 

Still, I must argue with the second part of the point below: 

...the Bosnian Muslims, who were largely apostates from Orthodoxy and fanatical converts to Mohamedanism.

Most are about as un-fanatical as imaginable. 

I was speaking historically. The Turks used the Bosnian Muslims to oppress the Christians and get them to convert through force and privileges. Also, Izetbegovic is on record for wanting to create an Iranian-style government in Bosnia.

I ain't disagreeing with the historical stuff. I just know what I saw first hand from the fall out into where I was living.

I have no context into which to place the whole mess other than the pain I saw in the Bosnians and Serbs I knew. Stuff that will last lifetimes.

Indeed. I have met very nice, non-fanatical Bosnian Muslims and Turks as well. However, historic memory seems to perpetuate itself among a certain element of society, usually as an excuse to grab power or prevent future peril, real or imagined.

Never said they were nice neither the Serbs nor the Bosnians. They did hang out with me afterall. //:=)

[serb1389]

I agree that the Serbs have suffered from terrible PR.  Serbs definitely suffered in these conflicts, but we're aware of how we collectively like to assign blame to one party. 

Still, I must argue with the second part of the point below: 

...the Bosnian Muslims, who were largely apostates from Orthodoxy and fanatical converts to Mohamedanism.

Most are about as un-fanatical as imaginable. 

totally agree with this.  in fact, there is plenty of proof that mujahadin were brought into bosnia to fight the war. 

anyway, i've got a feeling we're not going to get anywhere with this topic, & it's upsetting to continue to discuss it.  i'm going to bow out.