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« on: August 19, 2004, 12:50:26 PM »

I just recently received my copy of The Orthodox New Testamen: Vol 1 the Holy Gospels published by Holy Apostles Convent.  While I have my share of misgivings about the Dormitions Skete/Gregoryite crowd, I have to say that this is easily the best edition of the Scriptures (or any portion thereof) that I have ever acquired.  The translation itself seems to be a KJV compared to the Greek Byzantine text of the Gospels, with the corrections one would expect from such a process.  While some of the renderings that result from this are less "elegant", this superficial loss is more than made up by the accuracy the corrections add to this volume.

Another big plus (and definately worth the price of this volume, if you're not interested in yet another version of the Bible in English) are the copious Patristic references contained at the end of each of the four Gospels - they easily take up far more space than the text of the Gospels themselves.  The quality of the binding and the paper, as well as many Icons intermingeled with the sacred text (though unfortunately they're all in black and white) are an added bonus.

Though you can order this (and it's second volume, which I am not eager to obtain - it contains the remainder of the New Testament) directly from Dormition Skete, it's also available at Amazon.com (which is where I bought mine - the big benefit of this is that you can get free shipping through Amazon).  Well worth the purchase price.

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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2004, 10:47:33 AM »

I heard they were working on a companion translation of the Old Testament.  Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2004, 11:53:07 AM »

Lellimore,

Are you sure you're not confusing the Orthodox New Testament published by Dormition Skete with the Orthodox Study Bible: New Testament and Psalms published by Concilliar Press?  The latter is nearly finished a new translation and commentary of the LXX Old Testament.  More information can be found at http://www.lxx.org

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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2004, 10:36:18 AM »

Am interested in obtaining copies but Amazon only offer 1 second hand volume and want double the price in sterling or euros for it. Anyone know of an Irish or British stockist, please? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2004, 05:15:50 PM »

Dear Friends,

I have received both volumes for my birthday this year.  I find them to be very accurate -the most accurate that I've ever read.  My only regret about them is the KJV English.  Why do you think as Orthodox they would use an out-dated form of English to make an Orthodox New Testament?   What is the reasoning behind this and how many of you think this reasoning is correct?

Thank you,
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2004, 07:21:10 PM »

Friend, I am not sure but from a feeling that the Scriptures is something sacred or apart from the common and vulgar or everyday?

I have a Boston Psalter. It is beautiful in every way, the paper and binding, the illustrations and the language. In many oral traditions the bards and those that relate geneologies and histories use a language which is not 'identical' with the common or 'street' form. The KJV appears to be one of those special gifts to English speaking peoples which have enriched the language. Speaking as one who has often read aloud in a number of very different situations this form is something set apart and yet accessible. It requires effort, true, but becomes familiar with use. Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2004, 07:23:11 PM »


I have received both volumes for my birthday this year.  I find them to be very accurate -the most accurate that I've ever read.  My only regret about them is the KJV English.  Why do you think as Orthodox they would use an out-dated form of English to make an Orthodox New Testament?   What is the reasoning behind this and how many of you think this reasoning is correct?


I think they're working from the concept of 'Liturgical English'.  Most Orthodox service books I've examined are similarly in King James English.  There are a couple of reasons I can think of for this.  It sounds a little more lofty and elevated than normal speech (i.e., in the reverse situation, I think we can all agree that a Bible written in street slang would be inappropriate for Church use), it has a certain lilt and melodious quality to it that most English tends to lack, and finally, its actually more precise, in that Liturgical English maintains some person and number forms that are lacking in modern English (i.e. the distinction between thee, thou, and ye).

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2004, 07:33:06 PM »

Yes exactly, JohnCassian, the precision which does not exist in modern spoken or written English and the musicality which so often eludes much modern prose.
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2004, 06:08:03 AM »

Does anyone ever think, though, that KJV English was, at the time it was written, the vernacular of its day, that this was the point of its existence in the first place?

I agree that there are some advantages to it, which have been enumerated so far, but old does not necessarily equal reverent, nor contemporary irreverent.
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2004, 07:03:59 AM »

Actually, if we connect the language of the KJV translation to that of Shakespeare, it was already out of date by the time it was introduced.  It is indeed a common occurance for the scriptural and liturgical language of the Church to reflect an earlier form of whatever language the local Church worships in ie Koine Greek, Church Slavonic, more ancient forms of Arabic and Coptic, etc.

Personally, my preference is the RSV - it retains most of the grandeur of the KJV, but eliminates the words that have fallen out of modern english.
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2004, 10:37:02 AM »

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...it has a certain lilt and melodious quality to it that most English tends to lack

I prayed the Akathist for the Repose of the Departed last night after evening prayer from the Book of Akathists published by Holy Trinity Monastery and I failed to see the "lilt and melodious" quality.  In fact, it became difficult to sing due to the "-st" endings of many verbs and at some points difficult to even understand.  I don't mind the "Thees" and "Thous" and "vouchsafes" and what not, but the verb endings of KJV English leaves much to be desired, I think.
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2004, 11:19:08 AM »

I have both volumes of the New Testament published by Holy Apostles Convent.  I bought them because I knew the footnotes would be good.  (We already had the complete seven volume set of lives of the saints.)  Although expensive, the set is well worth buying.  

I certainly don't read this version, however, for the translation quality because I feel it is poor for use as a "reading Bible."  Throughout my graduate school studies (which included Russian, Slavonic, and German), it was stressed to us that a "literal translation" is one thing, and has an important purpose.  A "good" translation from the original language into a target language, though, takes into account the idiomatic usage and "flow" of the target language.  (I am NOT referring to "dumbing down" and mutilating a text as is done, for example with the "Good News Bible.")  On that latter principle, the Holy Apostles text tumbles.  When I first started reading the text, I repeatedly stopped in surprise over the many exceedingly strange renderings, particularly of verb tenses.  Eventually I realized that the intent evidently was to offer a literal translation.  Considering how Protestant interpretations of Holy Scripture often mislead the reader, Holy Apostles Convent has given us a great tool.  It just would not suit for liturgical use.  

   

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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2004, 09:12:51 PM »

Thank you all for your information.  I think 4Truth expressed something I have experienced.  Some Bibles are more for technical study and others are better for reading.  The ONT is excellent for study.  I've also been perusing the NJB and have been very surprised to find that I enjoy it very much (I'm only speaking of the NT).  Do any of you Orthodox use this translation or know of others who like it?
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2004, 10:30:06 PM »

Ghazaros

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What is the reasoning behind this and how many of you think this reasoning is correct?

In a way I can understand wanting to have a "liturgical language," slightly different than the popular language being used (and I seem to remember reading somewhere that the KJV English, c. 1611, wasn't exactly "contemporary," but was somewhat outdated even then--but I could have misunderstood on that point). On the other hand, if a certain form of English was made standard and accepted by all the Orthodox, that would go a long way, I think, in facilitating us understanding our faith better. Personally I would opt for a more modern rendering of the texts (ala NKJV), but I'd be willing to accept whatever was thought best if we could only get everything on the same page! Smiley I tire or reading 3 or 4 different renderings of Ps. 50, depending on which prayer/worship book I happen to be using (though for a while there it just got to the point where I just plugged in the words most familiar to me and ignored what the text in front of me said).
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2004, 10:35:11 PM »

Ghazaros,

I had a NJB but passed it on, I did'nt care for the Psalms or NT, the notes & OT/ NT with the original JB are fine. The Psalms are not to my liking but the notes are good.

The Orthodox NT Gospels are on my birthday (nxt mth) wish list .

Guess we will have to piece together Bibles to our liking since nobody has got it correct yet.

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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2004, 07:21:23 AM »

When I first started reading the text, I repeatedly stopped in surprise over the many exceedingly strange renderings, particularly of verb tenses.
You need to become familiar with Greek to understand the reasoning behind their renderings. There are verb tenses in Greek which have no equivalent in English (and viceversa) and some of the depth of the meaning is lost when you don't translate as they have done in the ONT. Knowing Greek, the renderings make perfect sense to me though they do take a bit of getting used to Smiley

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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2004, 08:39:03 AM »

John,

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You need to become familiar with Greek to understand the reasoning behind their renderings. There are verb tenses in Greek which have no equivalent in English (and viceversa) and some of the depth of the meaning is lost when you don't translate as they have done in the ONT. Knowing Greek, the renderings make perfect sense to me though they do take a bit of getting used to

This is something about the Orthodox New Testament that I really appreciated.  It was when I first began to regularly refer to a New Testament concordance as part of my studies, that I realized there are often things "lost in translation" in most English Bibles; this is either because they did not want to create a text that was too jarring, or simply because some Greek NT words have no single English equivelent.   However, though sometimes a little awkward sounding, for the most part I think the volumes from Holy Apostles Convent do a very good job making the best of their approach; it's not like the text is rendered so as to be unreadable or offensive to the ears.

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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2004, 02:18:50 PM »

Prodromos --

I'm a bit conversant with Greek, also.  You are right to point out about tenses non-existent in English.  I didn't refer to that (although perhaps I should have) because that was not my point.  (Point was only that this is a literal rendition, rather than a translation in the sense that translators make translations.)

Thanks,

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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2004, 07:25:24 PM »

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They say that Christ in his humanity has a "free will" and that at all times he "CHOSE" to remain in communion with the Father. How could Christ possibly have a free will in his human nature??? - this is logically incoherent...His divine nature was united with His human nature...and thus the will of the human nature was in direct conformity with that of the divine - by nature - not by choice. To assert Christ had a free will in His humanity, to assert he had "choice", would be to open the possibility for Him to infact contradict His own person and being, and depart from the will of the Father. But if He departs from the will of the Father, we now have an internal Contradiction in God Himself, so then what? Does God self-annhilate at this stage?

Christ was in direct obedience to the Father because this is a natural consequence of His nature...it was never a matter of choice...He and the father are one...one will...one purpose...and to imply that Christ in his humanity had the choice to depart from such a communion, would be like asserting that the sunlight can shine in the northern hemisphere whilst the core is directed at the southern.

I am no expert or scholar in theology or Christology (I think that's the word), but I tend to agree with the commentary in that the only way for Christ to fully save man is to fully BECOME man, and free will is the key to what man is. To say that Christ shared our human nature but not our free will (which in many ways IS our human nature when you boil it down to basics) is to state a contradiction IMHO. However, I do not have any logical explanation for your concerns, but I do have a suggestion - one I have to give myself very often and repeatedly. Remember, many things about our Lord Jesus Christ make no "sense," but they are still true. We cannot explain how or why they are true, but they are.

I take comfort in the fact that the Person at the center of my faith defies reason, which is why it is faith at all...but that's just me. Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2004, 01:37:22 PM »

They say that Christ in his humanity has a "free will" and that at all times he "CHOSE" to remain in communion with the Father. How could Christ possibly have a free will in his human nature??? - this is logically incoherent...His divine nature was united with His human nature...and thus the will of the human nature was in direct conformity with that of the divine - by nature - not by choice. To assert Christ had a free will in His humanity, to assert he had "choice", would be to open the possibility for Him to infact contradict His own person and being, and depart from the will of the Father. But if He departs from the will of the Father, we now have an internal Contradiction in God Himself, so then what? Does God self-annhilate at this stage?

Free will is a part of humanity, and if Christ is perfect God and perfect Man (and this is the Orthodox faith), then He had free will.  If He didn't have free will, He wouldn't be perfect Man.  

But could He sin?  I've heard some argue that He could have sinned, since He had free will.  But He was also God...how then could He sin?  I have never heard a good answer for this.  I personally can't see how He could've sinned, although I admit He had perfect humanity, including free will, since He is perfect God and perfect Man.  To say that He could've sinned sounds like Nestorianism to me, unless there is a way to reconcile the two ideas, and I just haven't heard it yet.
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2004, 06:05:03 PM »

Hi EkhristosAnesti,

Thank you for your reply. I fully believe that everything about our Lord Jesus Christ, His life and words and all things regarding Him, can be addressed in a scholarly manner, so perhaps to such scholars my statement that there are things about Christ that "make no sense" would be false. However, I am not one of those scholars, and most likely never will be. For the past few years I've tried to use brain power to persuade my unbelieving friends that there even *is* a God, and always I have been refuted with arguments that are just as logically sound as mine. What I learned is, the best proof I can offer would be the life I live and how I live it, and so my tulmultuous period of amateur apologetics has ended.

When you say that Christ was not a "mere human," I have to respectfully disagree (and we can agree to diasagree on this one), for it is in becoming a "mere human" just like our wretched selves that God proved His Love for us. Of course Jesus Christ was is and always will be God as well, simultaneous with being a "mere human" for his 33 year life on earth, but how this is possible it is not my place and time to know or understand. For me, it is in accepting my inability to comprehend what is beyond my comprehension that keeps me snugly in my place, below my God whom I am to fear, love and worship, not whom I'm to explain or understand in soley the brain.

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Im not a very smart person, but im still cursed with a mind that wants to rationalise everything. Pray for me.

On the contrary, you are a very smart person based on your posts thus far, but you are indeed right when you describe the need to rationalize as a curse (I know because I've been there, and despite the apparent peace of my posts I assure you I do return there often and need to remind myself of these same things). You are certainly in my prayers. Please keep me in yours.
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2004, 08:01:02 AM »

Dear EkhristosAnesti,

First off, when you try to become dogmatic about or rationalize the inner mystery of how Christ's true humanity and divinity worked together, you enter a world of endless speculation and arguement.  It is good to study the Fathers and the Councils and try to get a better understanding of our Lord.  But I would encourage you to not drive yourself crazy trying to figure the inner mystery of our Lord's Divine-Human nature.

Secondly on the statement you made that our Lord did not inherit the same broken human nature as we, an argument can be made that He did.  This is based on St. Gregory the Theologian's maxim "whatever is not assumed, is not healed."  If you're interested in hearing how some Orthodox present this, I have a file on it entitled "Christ's Assumption of our fallen humanity"  at:  http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/tradition.html

Thirdly, this thread is about the Orthodox New Testament NOT the Orthodox Study Bible -two totally different animals.  OSB uses NKJV translation and has notes that are many times very helpful and sometimes rather silly (as you discovered).  Nevertheless the OSB helped bring me (and many others) to Orthodoxy.  It is currently under a major revision to correct the silly parts and present for the first time a modern English translation of the Greek Septuagint.

The Orthodox New Testament is an entire translation of the NT Scriptures in accord with the received Greek text of the Greek Church.  It is very technical and very accurate.  The far majority of notes in this volume are direct Patristic commentary.  This dractically reduces the chances for silly comments. Smiley  I have a link to both the OSB and the ONT at the following page:  http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/bibli.html
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2004, 12:01:10 PM »

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this thread is about the Orthodox New Testament NOT the Orthodox Study Bible -two totally different animals.


lol I had absolutely no idea...probably because of the fact i have NEVER heard of this "Orthodox New testemant" until you just pointed it out to me. I thought the version i had was the only existing one of its kind....and i JUST bought it too aargh...

So you think its worthwhile to buy this "updated version"?
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2004, 02:59:40 PM »

EkhristosAnesti,

I'll give my tuppence in adition to Ghazaros and say that while the Orthodox Study Bible(OSB) is a good work especially for those who are first finding their way to Orthodoxy, the Orthodox New Testament(ONT) has more meat.  

The OSB is much more widely known and is a wonderful introduction to looking at the Bible from an Orthodox viewpoint(in fact, I have heard it referred to by some as the "Introducing Orthodoxy Study Bible") but suffers from a few important things left out and a few bad notes in editing.  It would do Concilliar Press well to do a revised edition, which would go well with the new Old Testament edition which is coming out.  From all I hear, the Old Testament OSB will be wonderful.  

It is still my fervant hope that before too long, most of the jurisdictions in America can agree on a common english translation for service texts and the Bible.  That will do much to help the cause of Orthodox unity if we all pray with the same words.
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« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2004, 06:45:40 AM »

The OSB is much more widely known and is a wonderful introduction to looking at the Bible from an Orthodox viewpoint(in fact, I have heard it referred to by some as the "Introducing Orthodoxy Study Bible") but suffers from a few important things left out and a few bad notes in editing.

Hey...

Could you provide some examples of "silly things," as it's been put, or "important things left out and a few bad notes in editing"?  I haven't seen any myself as of yet within the OSB NT/Psalms, but then again, I haven't gone through and read all the notes.... Smiley

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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2004, 08:08:32 AM »

Pedro,

There are a couple reviews available online, including a couple at Orthodoxinfo.com. I have some issues with these reviews as they, IMO, nitpick and seem to want to find errors (and in fact make big deals over things that aren't errors at all), but they also do have some good points and address what you are asking about.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_osb.aspx

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_osb2.aspx
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2004, 10:16:26 AM »

Paradosis,

Thanks for the links...I appreciate the objectivity, too, as I am usually wary of traditionalist references to OI.com, as the site is often "taken as gospel."  But thanks again for the help.

------------------------------

(Edit later)

Mmm... :-...I see what you mean, and have to agree with you here.  Yeah, some of the gripes seemed like a stretch, but there were definitely some notes -- Orthodox celebrating "Advent" and calling into question the separateness of similar miracles and all that -- that are odd, to say the least.
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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2004, 12:30:13 PM »

If anyone wants to see how "modern English: is just awful for Bibles...

See The New American Bible. It is a Roman catholic Bible


Pslam 23:

"Even though I walkk through a dark place....."

Yuck!

It makes for a great study Bible...but the language is so "unbeautiful" that when I read aloud for others...I revert to KJ English in other versions.
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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2004, 12:42:41 PM »

Very unbeautiful indeed.  I still prefer the RSV - to me it has the right balance of majesty and comprehension.
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« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2004, 08:57:30 PM »

What about the DOuay RHeims Bible? is sad that people don't like the oldest English Bible  Huh :-((around It is tradition!!!
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« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2004, 09:50:17 PM »

The Douay Rheims is a very good translation that I personally prefer to the KJV, but I still prefer the RSV for daily use and rote memorization.  (Actually I should say the Douay Chancellorsville, as that is my edition)
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« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2004, 09:51:05 AM »

Chancellorsville or Challoner?  I haven't heard of the former.
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« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2004, 10:24:47 PM »

Spartacus,

I have both the NAB and the Revised NAB and neither write Psalm 23 as you post.

NAB: Even though I walk in the dark valley...

RNAB:Even when I walk through a dark valley...

I will freely admit their are better translations of the Psalms.  The Grail Psalter is an elegant, chantable modern English version, and is in fact the offical Psalm translation for the English Latin Catholic Liturgy of Hours as well as my own Pittsburgh Metropolia.
 
Grail Psalter:
Psalm 23(22)

The Lord is my shepherd;
there is nothing I shall want.
Fresh and green are the pastures
where he gives me repose.
Near restful waters he leads me,
to revive my drooping spirit.

He guides me along the right path;
he is true to his name.
If I should walk in the valley of darkness
no evil would I fear.
You are there with your crook and your staff;
with these you give me comfort.

You have prepared a banquet for me
in the sight of my foes.
My head you have anointed with oil;
my cup is overflowing.

Surely goodness and kindness shall follow me
all the days of my life.
In the Lord's own house shall I dwell
for ever and ever.

The RNAB Psalter is so unlovely and inclusive in translation it was rejected for liturgical use by Rome, as was the NRSV, Revised Grail and Revised Jerusalem.

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« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2004, 12:54:48 AM »

King James Version.

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« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2006, 06:10:15 AM »

While I own Holy Apostles Convent's New Testament, I find the language a little to archaic for a new translation. It reads like the 1611 version but with "Logos" and "Iakavos" untranslated. I'm currently selling my single-volume edition of Holy Apostles Convent's NT, please PM me if you are interested. If Holy Apostles Convent were to publish an edition with the Septuagint, I'd definitely purchase it.
If you are looking for a faithful, readable translation of the Byzantine text, nothing beats the NKJV.

Peace.
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« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2006, 04:02:03 PM »

How do you know it is a "faithful, readable translation of the Byzantine text"?

(PM me your price for HAC NT, please.)
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« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2006, 01:53:40 AM »

How do you know it is a "faithful, readable translation of the Byzantine text"?

This is from the preface to the Orthodox Study Bible:
Quote
The official Greek text of the New Testament is
frequently referred to as the "Received Text."
Sometimes it's called the "Byzantine Text." It is the
text of the Gospels and Epistles that has been read in
the Greek Church from the beginning. The most easily
available version of the New Testament which follows
very strictly this traditional, received text, yet is
written in understandable modern English, is the New
King James Version.

Peace.
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« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2006, 09:05:34 AM »

Given that their publisher owns the NKJV, what would you expect?
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« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2006, 10:13:12 AM »

You seem to have forgotten the bishops who contributed to the OSB, and the widespread acceptance of the NKJV that had already existed among Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2006, 12:10:09 AM »

A quick question, the answer to which I already suspect, but...

Are all current, mainstream translations of the OT (KJV, NKJV, RSV, etc) translations of the Masoretic text?  I would imagine so, as the OSB LXX project would be pretty pointless if there were already a version out there...just curious as to how the KJV has the deuterocanonicals along with the RSV (which I prefer), if they both used the Masoretic as their OT text...
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« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2006, 12:30:25 AM »

The Douay Rheims is a very good translation that I personally prefer to the KJV, but I still prefer the RSV for daily use and rote memorization.  (Actually I should say the Douay Chancellorsville, as that is my edition)

The translations I use for Old Testament and New Testament are two-fold, respectively. I use the Septuagint, of course, for Old Testament references - but, like you, I do use the Douay-Rheims (exclusively for the New Testament though). I can't hack the KJV - too silly.  Smiley

Quote
Are all current, mainstream translations of the OT (KJV, NKJV, RSV, etc) translations of the Masoretic text?  I would imagine so, as the OSB LXX project would be pretty pointless if there were already a version out there...just curious as to how the KJV has the deuterocanonicals along with the RSV (which I prefer), if they both used the Masoretic as their OT text...

I believe that all the mainstream translations you listed do indeed use the MSS. That's pretty much the reason why I split with the KJV - I'd rather use the LXX compared to the MSS.
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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2006, 03:29:21 AM »

Are all current, mainstream translations of the OT (KJV, NKJV, RSV, etc) translations of the Masoretic text? 

Yes, they are based on the Masoritic text.
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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2006, 08:18:23 AM »

I can't hack the KJV - too silly.  Smiley...[and it does] use the MSS. That's pretty much the reason why I split with the KJV - I'd rather use the LXX compared to the MSS.

Mmm...well, since the KJV and NKJV are apparently the only versions that use the Byzantine NT text, that's a mark in their favor.
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« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2006, 03:22:43 AM »

Mmm...well, since the KJV and NKJV are apparently the only versions that use the Byzantine NT text, that's a mark in their favor.

Holy Apostles Convent's NT is based upon the Byzantine text, but it's a little cumbersome to read.
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