Author Topic: Luther and Unity  (Read 6081 times)

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Offline DennyB

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Luther and Unity
« on: December 03, 2004, 09:23:29 AM »
After watching Luther the Movie w/ Joseph Fiennes He made a comment during the movie of his concern for the Greek Christians,in a disscussion on whether or not they were outside the church, It seems that He was concerned about unity,was He?

Offline Schultz

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2004, 11:05:15 AM »
I do know that Luther sent representatives to the Orthodox to discuss some sort of union with them.  I remember reading an Orthodox-minded webpage somewhere but I can't recall where it is now and can't seem to find it.  Perhaps someone here knows the link.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2004, 11:12:05 AM »
Quote
I do know that Luther sent representatives to the Orthodox to discuss some sort of union with them.  I remember reading an Orthodox-minded webpage somewhere but I can't recall where it is now and can't seem to find it.  Perhaps someone here knows the link.


Luther himself didn't but in the late 1500s some professors at T++bingen corresponded with Patriarch Jeremias II in Constantinople hoping to get the Greeks interested in a Lutheran-type 'reformation', mailing him a copy of the Augsburg Confession they'd translated into Greek. Obviously it didn't work, because of basic Catholic-Protestant differences much like in the West. (Augsburg was Philipp Melancthton's attempt to reach a compromise with Rome.)
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Offline Schultz

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2004, 01:07:18 PM »
Ah, yes, that's it!   This is the site I read, from St. Paul's Greek Orthodox Church in Irvine, CA.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 01:07:49 PM by Schultz »
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Offline Stavro

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2004, 01:29:10 PM »
After watching Luther the Movie w/ Joseph Fiennes He made a comment during the movie of his concern for the Greek Christians,in a disscussion on whether or not they were outside the church, It seems that He was concerned about unity,was He?
Which church was Luther concerned about ?

I do not believe that any schematic person cares about unity. There is an obvious contradiction between Luther's actions ( in many aspects ) and the unity concerns alleged to him. He will go in history as the man who did the most damage to Christianity.


In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

Offline DennyB

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2004, 02:02:48 PM »
Which church was Luther concerned about ?

I do not believe that any schematic person cares about unity. There is an obvious contradiction between Luther's actions ( in many aspects ) and the unity concerns alleged to him. He will go in history as the man who did the most damage to Christianity.




You make some good points,I really think that He did have some valid complaints,though I do believe the reforms shouldn't have been so radical,it should have been more underground,than so blantantly open,it would have done greater good ,than causing more damage.

Offline Jakub

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2004, 02:08:15 PM »
They are really advertising the Luther DVD out here in Kalifornia, which with its very liberal media etc surprises me.

Has anyone noticed that most greetings on the radio & tv are Happy Holidays & Christmas has seemed to disappear, well the true sense, you can't find a Nativity item in any stores.

james, over caffeinated and pondering a cold cerveza
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Offline JoeS

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2004, 02:14:47 PM »
//Has anyone noticed that most greetings on the radio & tv are Happy Holidays & Christmas has seemed to disappear, well the true sense, you can't find a Nativity item in any stores.//

Well if its any consolation the work "holiday" is derived from the word "Holyday" so in effect they are wishing all a very happy holydays.

JoeS   ::)

Offline Jakub

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2004, 02:20:24 PM »
Oh oh,

These secular types really don't know, eh ?

Ya think that some aclu type would have filed on that term.

james
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2004, 03:44:38 PM »
Quote
Which church was Luther concerned about ?

Probably depended on what mood he was in.

Quote
I do not believe that any schematic person cares about unity. There is an obvious contradiction between Luther's actions ( in many aspects ) and the unity concerns alleged to him.


He himself admitted he was unstable and contradicted himself - 'I am an irregular planet'. There is a legend that he recanted on his deathbed which can't be proved but wouldn't have been out of character for him.

Quote
He will go in history as the man who did the most damage to Christianity.

He's in the Top Ten but I feel very sorry for him. He made bad mistakes but given the circumstances, the corruption all around him, you can see why.

Quote
They are really advertising the Luther DVD out here in Kalifornia, which with its very liberal media etc surprises me.

That doesn't surprise me because despite his Christian faith and his political conservatism the very liberal media probably very logically see him as a starting point for the spectrum they're on, away from the traditional Christian faith. I'm sure many here agree with me that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson at one point, liberal mainline Protestant denominations at another and secular Generation Xers and Yers at still another are just a few logical jumps removed from each other - sequential moves.

Quote
Has anyone noticed that most greetings on the radio & tv are Happy Holidays & Christmas has seemed to disappear, well the true sense


Yes, and it is creepy and Soviet.

Quote
you can't find a Nativity item in any stores

Well, at least here you can see a Nativity scene in some shop windows and the 'holiday music 24/7 till Christmas' radio station* does play a few real Christmas carols alongside the generic 'Santa, snow and home' stuff (which has its place so Jews and others don't feel left out - ever notice that Jews, Irving Berlin for example, wrote a lot of those songs?).

*The kind in the States that some women like - you hear it in some doctor's offices. Most of the time they've got a rigid playlist of the same 'soft-rock' pop standards from the 1970s to a couple of years ago, every day.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 03:53:03 PM by Serge »
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Offline Jakub

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2004, 08:11:52 PM »
For a modern Christmas tune I still like "Little Saint Nick" by the Beach Boys.

Also like Elvis singing "The Miracle of the Rosary", even though its not a Chistmas tune.

james
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Doubting Thomas

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2004, 12:50:30 PM »
That doesn't surprise me because despite his Christian faith and his political conservatism the very liberal media probably very logically see him as a starting point for the spectrum they're on, away from the traditional Christian faith. I'm sure many here agree with me that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson at one point, liberal mainline Protestant denominations at another and secular Generation Xers and Yers at still another are just a few logical jumps removed from each other - sequential moves.

Frank Schaeffer makes a point similar to this in Dancing Alone.
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Offline Elisha

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2004, 02:08:37 PM »
//Has anyone noticed that most greetings on the radio & tv are Happy Holidays & Christmas has seemed to disappear, well the true sense, you can't find a Nativity item in any stores.//

Well if its any consolation the work "holiday" is derived from the word "Holyday" so in effect they are wishing all a very happy holydays.

JoeS   ::)

I think the worst then is "Season's Greetings".  How vague and pointless.

I rented the movie this weekend.  Dozed off for part of it.  I haven't read up on the Lutheran Reformation enough to know if the movie was that accurate.  It seemed a little cheezy though.  Of course, it doesn't mention anything about praxis (what Luther still kept) - like that he kept the fasts and other things.  I think it seemed to portray him off as instant 'Jesus and me' type.  A much bigger leap then probably how he actually was.

Offline Stavro

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2004, 08:22:44 PM »
Quote
He's in the Top Ten but I feel very sorry for him. He made bad mistakes but given the circumstances, the corruption all around him, you can see why.
There is really no difference between Lutheran ideas and what he was allegedly fighting.
For fighting wrong teachings is never accomplished by producing worse teachings, and counter-heresies are as dangerous as the orignial heresies themselves.

For he was fighting RC church abuse of power, embodied in the Bishops and Pope, who were declaring wrong teachings. Luther did nothing less than what the hierarchs did, introducing his own heresies. Nowadays, every Protestant Pastor is his own little Pope in his parish, introducing whatever he feels communicated to him by the spirit.

He fought the Anabaptists who used his same logic and followed his footsteps in interpreting the Bible and came up with new heresies. There are reports that he killed many of them and so did his followers (History of Christianity, Volume II. Kenneth Scott Latourette). This is of course never highlighted in any Protestant movie ,for it not only shows the hipocracy of Luther and his thirst for power, but also the false grounds of the Sola Scripture slogan.

Adding the fruits of his heresies and the sad state of the Protestant churches today , all 20,000 denominations of them, I cannot think of any other man who did so much damage to the Church as Luther did.  

In any case, I do not feel sorry for the man ( I do not feel sorry for Arius as well), but I feel sorry for the millions who he deceived and continues to deceive.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2004, 07:54:29 AM »
If you want to understand Luther, simply remember this: Luther's innovation was that he taught that man CANNOT cooperate with God at all. Period. Man is TOTALLY PASSIVE in the salvation process according to Luther. There is no synergy, no theosis, nothing.  Luther tried to say that this was not new teaching (even though it was), by taking some passages of Blessed Augustine out of context and dogmatizing them and making it SOUND like the Church has always taught this nonsense. If Luther had ever engaged in real dialogue with the Orthodox Church, like he did with Rome and with the other Protestant Reformers, he would have damned us to hell along with the Pope because we don't hold to his precious "grace ALONE" view.  As a former Lutheran (and a strict one at that) when I told my Lutheran pastor that I was converted to Orthodoxy, he gasped and remarked:
Orthodoxy? Why those people are synergists! They believe we can cooperate with God!"     as if cooperating with God is dangerous or evil! LOL

Offline Elisha

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2004, 12:48:23 PM »
If you want to understand Luther, simply remember this: Luther's innovation was that he taught that man CANNOT cooperate with God at all. Period. Man is TOTALLY PASSIVE in the salvation process according to Luther. There is no synergy, no theosis, nothing.  Luther tried to say that this was not new teaching (even though it was), by taking some passages of Blessed Augustine out of context and dogmatizing them and making it SOUND like the Church has always taught this nonsense. If Luther had ever engaged in real dialogue with the Orthodox Church, like he did with Rome and with the other Protestant Reformers, he would have damned us to hell along with the Pope because we don't hold to his precious "grace ALONE" view.  As a former Lutheran (and a strict one at that) when I told my Lutheran pastor that I was converted to Orthodoxy, he gasped and remarked:
Orthodoxy? Why those people are synergists! They believe we can cooperate with God!"     as if cooperating with God is dangerous or evil! LOL

Are you sure you're not confusing Luther with Calvin?  I was told that Luther kept the fasts and other Orthodox stuff.  I've never heard of Lutherans advocating a total passivity - and I've been exposed to them a lot through my foster parents (although ELCA) and Grandma (Mizz Synod for 30 yrs in RI, ELCA parish in CA).   That sounds the same as Calvin's total depravity.

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2004, 06:23:49 PM »
Also like Elvis singing "The Miracle of the Rosary", even though its not a Chistmas tune.
james
Really!  THAT I would like to hear, once at least.   (Insert cool smiley guy wearing dark glasses here.)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 06:25:04 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2004, 06:28:10 PM »
Are you sure you're not confusing Luther with Calvin?  I was told that Luther kept the fasts and other Orthodox stuff.  I've never heard of Lutherans advocating a total passivity...

It's certainly true that he didn't like at all the idea that we have to work for our salvation.  He called the epistle of St. James "a right strawy epistle!" because of its emphasis on good works.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2004, 11:27:27 PM »
Quote
Also like Elvis singing "The Miracle of the Rosary", even though its not a Chistmas tune.
james

 
Really!  THAT I would like to hear, once at least.  (Insert cool smiley guy wearing dark glasses here.)


It's on the Web - that's where I heard it. Haven't got the URL - I'm sure you can find it with Google.
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Offline Arystarcus

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2004, 02:49:21 AM »
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Really!  THAT I would like to hear, once at least.  (Insert cool smiley guy wearing dark glasses here.)

Well, here's your chance.  :cwm35:

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline Doubting Thomas

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2004, 09:44:13 AM »
From what I've read Luther tended to be more extreme than subsequent Lutherans regarding man's free will (or the lack thereof) while Calvin's followers (particularly Beza) were more "Calvinistic" than Calvin.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2004, 05:53:27 PM by Doubting Thomas »
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re:Luther and Unity
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2004, 04:46:41 PM »
Luther lived a generation BEFORE Calvin. If anybody got his ideas from another, it was Calvin who got his ideas from Luther, not vice versa.  Luther considered his most important work to be a book he wrote called "The Bondage of the Will."  In that book, Luther expressedly denies free will and compares the human being to a beast of burden whose will is determined by the rider: either God or Satan.  Luther believed in and advanced the idea of TOTAL DEPRAVITY first. Calvin later picked up on that idea and pressed it to its logical conclusions.  The major difference between Calvin and Luther is not the belief in total depravity, for both men affirm that. The real difference between the two is Calvin's belief  that some people are predestined to hell, called the election to damnation.  Luther never pressed the predestination issue nearly as much as Calvin did, and was content to leave it more in the realm of mystery.  Luther's view is less logically satisfying than Calvin's, but it also upholds a more charitable view of God.  While Luther did maintain that all human beings are totally depraved, he always rejected the notion that some people are predestined to hell. Luther also believed in powerful Sacraments that actually dispensed the saving grace of God to people. Calvin viewed the sacraments as mere signs and symbols of grace, but did not actually believe they conveyed grace itself to people.

Offline emil faust

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Re: Luther and Unity
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2004, 07:31:29 AM »
When i was a child growing up in the Lutheran church, i asked the question tot the pastor during a catechism class that got me removed from the class.  I asked after viewing a movie about Luther, "what happened during the years between the Apostles and Luther? and if the Church was wrong during the this time, how could Luther be the only one to get it correct?'  I was in the eighth grade at the time and the pastor told me that i didnt need to know this, it wasnt necessary.

Offline gphadraig

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Re: Luther and Unity
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2004, 07:12:24 PM »
I am not much minded about Martin Luther, who seemed to have been sparked off by the blatant fund raising activities of a Medici Pope desperate to raise monies, and who sent priests all over Western Europe selling indulgences. My understanding is that this was the 'key' for this Augustinian canon's revolt.

The holiday greeting bit earlier referred to struck a cord. My best friend said he listens to his local radio station where one of the programme hosts is a Australian Jewish male in his sixties. This fellow is something of an institution and very direct. He apparently sent some middle class, white, prat who had 'sensitivites' about Christmas upsetting minorities. The e-mail was unambiguous, to say the least. He apparently wrote that minorities have no problem with Christmas, its celebration or any of its symbols - including the religious symbols. That he had a problem maybe, but 'we minorities' did not. Would he therefore shut up and mind his own business, 'we minorities' could and would speak for ourselves.............

Now that is straight talking. Because the British Red Cross does not allow its staff to promote in any way shape or form Christmas in their charity shops, he no longer donates to them and instead donates to the Irish Red Cross. the Irish Red Cross, being a more rationale organisation must be very happy to acquire overseas funders.

So, it only remains for me to offer one and all the Joys of a Holy and Happy Nativity of Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Just as he did when sending a Nativity card to the chair and fund raising manager of the British Red Cross. Bless!
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