OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 22, 2014, 12:06:38 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: In Terra Pax Hominibus:Vatican vs. Orthodox, a translation.  (Read 2430 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« on: November 04, 2011, 03:07:42 PM »

I got inspired by this recent thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40765.msg664370.html#msg664370
to draft a full translation of the letter from Pope Leo IX to EP Michael Cerularius.  I take the Latin as official, no matter the Greek translation. The Biblical verses I take it are the Vulgate:I translate from the letter. The Latin I take from here:
http://books.google.com/books?dq=Cornelius+Will+%22acta+et+scripta%22&jtp=65&pg=PA65&id=rIkEAAAAQAAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false
The letter runs 41 paragraphs/chapters, so I'll translate, Lord willing, off and on when I'm in the mood (or someone finds a translation already done, and posts).


Quote
Leo IX
Epistle to Michael Cerularius, Patriarch of Constantinople, against him and the unheard of presumpitons and excessive vanities of Leo bishop of Ohrid.


Leo, bishop, Servant of the Servants of God
to Michael and Leo, bishops of Constantinople and Ohrid.

I. On earth peace to men of good will [Luke 2:14].  Likewise the Lord's exordium teaches us that: In whatsoever house or city you enter, first say "peace to this house," and if there be a son of peace there, your peace shall remain on it, but if otherwise, it will return to you [Luke 10:5-6].  In peace indeed God has called us[I Cor. 7:15], Who is our peace; and Who made both one, and coming has preached peace to those who are far off, and to those who were near [Ephesus 2:14, 17] and amongst some said Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God [Mat. 5:9].  Whose feet Isaiah the Theologian in admiration, crys out, How beautiful are the feet of the gospel of peace! [Isa. 52:7; Rom. 10:15].  How great is Paul witnessing so to urge the disciples on: Follow peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see God [Heb 12:14].   Also: If it can be, what is of you, having peace with all men [Rom 12:18]. And again: Have peace, and the God of love and peace shall be with you [II Cor. 13:11].  Not even unjustifiably does the Lord Himself say to his disciples, yea, to all Christians: Peace I leave to you, I give you my peace [John 14:27]. Which assuredly by such true and unanimous desire, and moreover should be retained by the indissoluble connection of the covenant, hence it can be gathered that by His co-heirs and sharers in the latter, even as commened by  hereditary and perpetual right, soon subscribed under the covenant of His blood and confirmed by pious death  He left, as if to say:My brothers and co-heirs, I leave you a lot from our patrimony, peace manifestly temporal, which if pure and undefiled in the end truely represents to Me, My lot, namely peace, I command you.  Not content with these, equal to the Father and less than the Father, for this so implores to the Very Father, to His Father and Our Father, from Whom He is never parted, shall return: Father, whom You have given Me, I want to be one, even as We are one, and let them be made perfect in one [John 17:11, 22-23].
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 03:33:55 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2011, 01:29:36 PM »

Now, the plesentries evidently gotten out of the way:
Quote
II. But Woe to the world because of scanadals [Mat. 18:7], which, with almost all the divine pages inviting us together to the good of unity and peace, so that one heart and one mind be in us in Him who of one mind is in His house, which is the Catholic Church, for all that do make to remain to dwell, up to now, and miserable men come forth, their own, not the things which are of Jesus Christ, seeking [Phil. 2:21], in all things more wicked than the soldiers crucifying the Lord of Glory. Since indeed these corruptible [ones] His own robe, because it was seamless and woven from above and through the whole, have spared, saying "Let us not rend it [John 19:24], by a certain reverence assuredly have been admired and moreover the diligence of the weavers and the elegance of the work.  These in truth from His imperishable charity, which united the Church, to present it to Himself a glorious garment not having a spot or wrinkle, impious and sacriligious hands to rend asunder cruelly take possession, sharpening boastful and deceitful tongues to dig, esteeming as nothing [that which is] by the ineffible and special skill of the co-eternal to God Wisdom of the Father joined together and bound, not by the human mind nor by syllogisms of philosophers nor by arguments sewn together: For God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise[I Cor. 1:27].  For not through rhetoricians nor sophists do the fishermen catch, but through fishermen and moreover the simple the catch of fish is sophists and orators, because as the extraordinary Paul says: The Kingdom of God is not in words, but in strength.[I Cor. 4:20]
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 01:37:00 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2011, 02:51:02 PM »

Now, the plesentries evidently gotten out of the way:
Quote
II. But Woe to the world because of scanadals [Mat. 18:7], which, with almost all the divine pages inviting us together to the good of unity and peace, so that one heart and one mind be in us in Him who of one mind is in His house, which is the Catholic Church, for all that do make to remain to dwell, up to now, and miserable men come forth, their own, not the things which are of Jesus Christ, seeking [Phil. 2:21], in all things more wicked than the soldiers crucifying the Lord of Glory. Since indeed these corruptible [ones] His own robe, because it was seamless and woven from above and through the whole, have spared, saying "Let us not rend it [John 19:24], by a certain reverence assuredly have been admired and moreover the diligence of the weavers and the elegance of the work.  These in truth from His imperishable charity, which united the Church, to present it to Himself a glorious garment not having a spot or wrinkle, impious and sacriligious hands to rend asunder cruelly take possession, sharpening boastful and deceitful tongues to dig, esteeming as nothing [that which is] by the ineffible and special skill of the co-eternal to God Wisdom of the Father joined together and bound, not by the human mind nor by syllogisms of philosophers nor by arguments sewn together: For God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise[I Cor. 1:27].  For not through rhetoricians nor sophists do the fishermen catch, but through fishermen and moreover the simple the catch of fish is sophists and orators, because as the extraordinary Paul says: The Kingdom of God is not in words, but in strength.[I Cor. 4:20]


Please indulge my curiosity, if you will--1) Why are you doing this?, and 2) What are your bona fides as a translator of Latin?

Thanks!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2011, 05:09:00 PM »

Now, the plesentries evidently gotten out of the way:
Quote
II. But Woe to the world because of scanadals [Mat. 18:7], which, with almost all the divine pages inviting us together to the good of unity and peace, so that one heart and one mind be in us in Him who of one mind is in His house, which is the Catholic Church, for all that do make to remain to dwell, up to now, and miserable men come forth, their own, not the things which are of Jesus Christ, seeking [Phil. 2:21], in all things more wicked than the soldiers crucifying the Lord of Glory. Since indeed these corruptible [ones] His own robe, because it was seamless and woven from above and through the whole, have spared, saying "Let us not rend it [John 19:24], by a certain reverence assuredly have been admired and moreover the diligence of the weavers and the elegance of the work.  These in truth from His imperishable charity, which united the Church, to present it to Himself a glorious garment not having a spot or wrinkle, impious and sacriligious hands to rend asunder cruelly take possession, sharpening boastful and deceitful tongues to dig, esteeming as nothing [that which is] by the ineffible and special skill of the co-eternal to God Wisdom of the Father joined together and bound, not by the human mind nor by syllogisms of philosophers nor by arguments sewn together: For God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise[I Cor. 1:27].  For not through rhetoricians nor sophists do the fishermen catch, but through fishermen and moreover the simple the catch of fish is sophists and orators, because as the extraordinary Paul says: The Kingdom of God is not in words, but in strength.[I Cor. 4:20]


Please indulge my curiosity, if you will--1) Why are you doing this?, and 2) What are your bona fides as a translator of Latin?

Thanks!

Isa is pretty much a polyglot from what I understand.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2011, 05:20:36 PM »

Now, the plesentries evidently gotten out of the way:
Quote
II. But Woe to the world because of scanadals [Mat. 18:7], which, with almost all the divine pages inviting us together to the good of unity and peace, so that one heart and one mind be in us in Him who of one mind is in His house, which is the Catholic Church, for all that do make to remain to dwell, up to now, and miserable men come forth, their own, not the things which are of Jesus Christ, seeking [Phil. 2:21], in all things more wicked than the soldiers crucifying the Lord of Glory. Since indeed these corruptible [ones] His own robe, because it was seamless and woven from above and through the whole, have spared, saying "Let us not rend it [John 19:24], by a certain reverence assuredly have been admired and moreover the diligence of the weavers and the elegance of the work.  These in truth from His imperishable charity, which united the Church, to present it to Himself a glorious garment not having a spot or wrinkle, impious and sacriligious hands to rend asunder cruelly take possession, sharpening boastful and deceitful tongues to dig, esteeming as nothing [that which is] by the ineffible and special skill of the co-eternal to God Wisdom of the Father joined together and bound, not by the human mind nor by syllogisms of philosophers nor by arguments sewn together: For God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise[I Cor. 1:27].  For not through rhetoricians nor sophists do the fishermen catch, but through fishermen and moreover the simple the catch of fish is sophists and orators, because as the extraordinary Paul says: The Kingdom of God is not in words, but in strength.[I Cor. 4:20]


Please indulge my curiosity, if you will--1) Why are you doing this?, and 2) What are your bona fides as a translator of Latin?

Thanks!

Isa is pretty much a polyglot from what I understand.

Still curious about his credentials.   A polyglot is just someone who speaks more than one language.  That, in itself, is not a qualification to do complicated ecclesial translations.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2011, 09:23:49 PM »

Now, the plesentries evidently gotten out of the way:
Quote
II. But Woe to the world because of scanadals [Mat. 18:7], which, with almost all the divine pages inviting us together to the good of unity and peace, so that one heart and one mind be in us in Him who of one mind is in His house, which is the Catholic Church, for all that do make to remain to dwell, up to now, and miserable men come forth, their own, not the things which are of Jesus Christ, seeking [Phil. 2:21], in all things more wicked than the soldiers crucifying the Lord of Glory. Since indeed these corruptible [ones] His own robe, because it was seamless and woven from above and through the whole, have spared, saying "Let us not rend it [John 19:24], by a certain reverence assuredly have been admired and moreover the diligence of the weavers and the elegance of the work.  These in truth from His imperishable charity, which united the Church, to present it to Himself a glorious garment not having a spot or wrinkle, impious and sacriligious hands to rend asunder cruelly take possession, sharpening boastful and deceitful tongues to dig, esteeming as nothing [that which is] by the ineffible and special skill of the co-eternal to God Wisdom of the Father joined together and bound, not by the human mind nor by syllogisms of philosophers nor by arguments sewn together: For God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise[I Cor. 1:27].  For not through rhetoricians nor sophists do the fishermen catch, but through fishermen and moreover the simple the catch of fish is sophists and orators, because as the extraordinary Paul says: The Kingdom of God is not in words, but in strength.[I Cor. 4:20]


Please indulge my curiosity, if you will--1) Why are you doing this?, and 2) What are your bona fides as a translator of Latin?

Thanks!
1) I was reminded by the ironic incipit and the discussion on the thread in the OP.  The letter is rarely referred to-everyone is too interested in the papal bull slammed down on the altar by Card. Umberto-but it is not affected by Pope Leo IX's death (as is often said of the bull), as it was issued when he was alive, and gives the official reasons of the Vatican's schism.
2) I read Latin (in fact, it was the first language I attempted, when I was eight).  Anyone who is better equipped, has a degree in Latin, whatever, is more than welcome to critique or do it instead.  I won't get jealous, I promise.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2011, 09:28:30 PM »

Now, the plesentries evidently gotten out of the way:
Quote
II. But Woe to the world because of scanadals [Mat. 18:7], which, with almost all the divine pages inviting us together to the good of unity and peace, so that one heart and one mind be in us in Him who of one mind is in His house, which is the Catholic Church, for all that do make to remain to dwell, up to now, and miserable men come forth, their own, not the things which are of Jesus Christ, seeking [Phil. 2:21], in all things more wicked than the soldiers crucifying the Lord of Glory. Since indeed these corruptible [ones] His own robe, because it was seamless and woven from above and through the whole, have spared, saying "Let us not rend it [John 19:24], by a certain reverence assuredly have been admired and moreover the diligence of the weavers and the elegance of the work.  These in truth from His imperishable charity, which united the Church, to present it to Himself a glorious garment not having a spot or wrinkle, impious and sacriligious hands to rend asunder cruelly take possession, sharpening boastful and deceitful tongues to dig, esteeming as nothing [that which is] by the ineffible and special skill of the co-eternal to God Wisdom of the Father joined together and bound, not by the human mind nor by syllogisms of philosophers nor by arguments sewn together: For God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise[I Cor. 1:27].  For not through rhetoricians nor sophists do the fishermen catch, but through fishermen and moreover the simple the catch of fish is sophists and orators, because as the extraordinary Paul says: The Kingdom of God is not in words, but in strength.[I Cor. 4:20]


Please indulge my curiosity, if you will--1) Why are you doing this?, and 2) What are your bona fides as a translator of Latin?

Thanks!

Isa is pretty much a polyglot from what I understand.

Still curious about his credentials.   A polyglot is just someone who speaks more than one language.  That, in itself, is not a qualification to do complicated ecclesial translations.
and when I publish it in a peer reviewed journal, I'll worry about that, along with full annotations.  If you want, I can put up the Latin as well, and you can check and critique-even criticize-my translation.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2011, 11:35:37 AM »

Now, the plesentries evidently gotten out of the way:
Quote
II. But Woe to the world because of scanadals [Mat. 18:7], which, with almost all the divine pages inviting us together to the good of unity and peace, so that one heart and one mind be in us in Him who of one mind is in His house, which is the Catholic Church, for all that do make to remain to dwell, up to now, and miserable men come forth, their own, not the things which are of Jesus Christ, seeking [Phil. 2:21], in all things more wicked than the soldiers crucifying the Lord of Glory. Since indeed these corruptible [ones] His own robe, because it was seamless and woven from above and through the whole, have spared, saying "Let us not rend it [John 19:24], by a certain reverence assuredly have been admired and moreover the diligence of the weavers and the elegance of the work.  These in truth from His imperishable charity, which united the Church, to present it to Himself a glorious garment not having a spot or wrinkle, impious and sacriligious hands to rend asunder cruelly take possession, sharpening boastful and deceitful tongues to dig, esteeming as nothing [that which is] by the ineffible and special skill of the co-eternal to God Wisdom of the Father joined together and bound, not by the human mind nor by syllogisms of philosophers nor by arguments sewn together: For God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise[I Cor. 1:27].  For not through rhetoricians nor sophists do the fishermen catch, but through fishermen and moreover the simple the catch of fish is sophists and orators, because as the extraordinary Paul says: The Kingdom of God is not in words, but in strength.[I Cor. 4:20]


Please indulge my curiosity, if you will--1) Why are you doing this?, and 2) What are your bona fides as a translator of Latin?

Thanks!
1) I was reminded by the ironic incipit and the discussion on the thread in the OP.  The letter is rarely referred to-everyone is too interested in the papal bull slammed down on the altar by Card. Umberto-but it is not affected by Pope Leo IX's death (as is often said of the bull), as it was issued when he was alive, and gives the official reasons of the Vatican's schism.
2) I read Latin (in fact, it was the first language I attempted, when I was eight).  Anyone who is better equipped, has a degree in Latin, whatever, is more than welcome to critique or do it instead.  I won't get jealous, I promise.

Thanks.

Try as I might, the only reference to the letter that I can find is the Latin one you've linked.   Interesting.  Perhaps I just haven't searched enough.

Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2011, 12:41:53 PM »

Now, the plesentries evidently gotten out of the way:
Quote
II. But Woe to the world because of scanadals [Mat. 18:7], which, with almost all the divine pages inviting us together to the good of unity and peace, so that one heart and one mind be in us in Him who of one mind is in His house, which is the Catholic Church, for all that do make to remain to dwell, up to now, and miserable men come forth, their own, not the things which are of Jesus Christ, seeking [Phil. 2:21], in all things more wicked than the soldiers crucifying the Lord of Glory. Since indeed these corruptible [ones] His own robe, because it was seamless and woven from above and through the whole, have spared, saying "Let us not rend it [John 19:24], by a certain reverence assuredly have been admired and moreover the diligence of the weavers and the elegance of the work.  These in truth from His imperishable charity, which united the Church, to present it to Himself a glorious garment not having a spot or wrinkle, impious and sacriligious hands to rend asunder cruelly take possession, sharpening boastful and deceitful tongues to dig, esteeming as nothing [that which is] by the ineffible and special skill of the co-eternal to God Wisdom of the Father joined together and bound, not by the human mind nor by syllogisms of philosophers nor by arguments sewn together: For God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise[I Cor. 1:27].  For not through rhetoricians nor sophists do the fishermen catch, but through fishermen and moreover the simple the catch of fish is sophists and orators, because as the extraordinary Paul says: The Kingdom of God is not in words, but in strength.[I Cor. 4:20]


Please indulge my curiosity, if you will--1) Why are you doing this?, and 2) What are your bona fides as a translator of Latin?

Thanks!

Isa is pretty much a polyglot from what I understand.

Still curious about his credentials.   A polyglot is just someone who speaks more than one language.  That, in itself, is not a qualification to do complicated ecclesial translations.
and when I publish it in a peer reviewed journal, I'll worry about that, along with full annotations.  If you want, I can put up the Latin as well, and you can check and critique-even criticize-my translation.

I'm sure your Latin is at least adequate and far, far, *far* better than mine.  But when presenting a translation such as the one you're doing, with nothing else to compare it with....it would be useful to know what your level of competence actually is in Latin so as to be able to more precisely trust the accuracy of your translation.  By the way, I'd ask that of anyone, so please don't take it personally  Wink.


Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2011, 12:59:57 PM »

Please indulge my curiosity, if you will--1) Why are you doing this?, and 2) What are your bona fides as a translator of Latin?

Thanks!
1) I was reminded by the ironic incipit and the discussion on the thread in the OP.  The letter is rarely referred to-everyone is too interested in the papal bull slammed down on the altar by Card. Umberto-but it is not affected by Pope Leo IX's death (as is often said of the bull), as it was issued when he was alive, and gives the official reasons of the Vatican's schism.
2) I read Latin (in fact, it was the first language I attempted, when I was eight).  Anyone who is better equipped, has a degree in Latin, whatever, is more than welcome to critique or do it instead.  I won't get jealous, I promise.

Thanks.

Try as I might, the only reference to the letter that I can find is the Latin one you've linked.   Interesting.  Perhaps I just haven't searched enough.
here's some, first one from Vatican II (footnote 2):
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html
Migne's Patrologia Latina, Vol. 143 (cxliii), Leo IX Epistolae Et Decreta, no. C, p. 744/p. 77 of the pdf file
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1049-1054,_SS_Leo_IX,_Epistolae_Et_Decreta,_MLT.pdf
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_1049-1054__SS_Leo_IX__Epistolae_Et_Decreta__MLT.pdf.html
Mansi, Labbe and Cossart's Sacrorum Conciliorum Nova Amplissima Collectio, Vol. 19 (xix) Col. 635-656/pdf p. 387
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_1692-1769__Mansi_JD__Sacrorum_Conciliorum_Nova_Amplissima_Collectio_Vol_019__LT.pdf.html
http://www.veritatis-societas.org/200_Mansi/1692-1769,_Mansi_JD,_Sacrorum_Conciliorum_Nova_Amplissima_Collectio_Vol_019,_LT.pdf
Sacrosancta Concilia Ad Regiam Editionem Exacta: Quae Nunc Quarta Parte ... By Philippe Labbé, Gabriel Cossart
http://books.google.com/books?id=d49EAAAAcAAJ&dq=sacrosancta%20concilia%20ad%20regiam%20editionem%20exacta%20quae%20nunc%20quarta%20parte%20prodit%20auctior%20dccclxxii.&pg=RA1-PR32#v=onepage&q&f=false
Enchiridion symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum By Heinrich Denzinger, Clemens Bannwart
http://books.google.com/books?id=CFVpAAAAIAAJ&dq=inauthor%3A%22Heinrich%20Denzinger%22&pg=PA161#v=onepage&q&f=false
The Documents of the Christian Church By Henry Bettenson, Chris Maunder
http://books.google.com/books?id=IwsLp8zj3D8C&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&source=bl&ots=N0mK9IeGLI&sig=korrB94MqLOe-qtU_77w8yRM0jo&hl=en#v=onepage&q=In%20terra%20pax%20hominibus%20Leo%20IX&f=false
Church, word, and spirit: historical and theological essays in honor of Geoffrey W. Bromiley
http://books.google.com/books?id=e-srAAAAMAAJ&q=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&dq=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&hl=en
The struggle for Christian unity Herbert Montague Waddams
http://books.google.com/books?id=NhY1AQAAIAAJ&q=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&dq=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&hl=en
The Catholic catechism Pietro Gasparri
http://books.google.com/books?id=iyUvAAAAYAAJ&q=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&dq=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&hl=en
Appeals, an historical synopsis and commentary.  Thomas Arthur Connolly
http://books.google.com/books?id=5oVbAAAAMAAJ&q=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&dq=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&hl=en
Die Umgestaltung des Sachsenspiegelrechts durch die Buch'sche Glosse By Bernd Kannowski
http://books.google.com/books?id=f3VeDIoMeYYC&pg=PA267&dq=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&hl=en#v=onepage&q=In%20terra%20pax%20hominibus%20Leo%20IX&f=false
Canon law studies, Issues 78-79
http://books.google.com/books?id=tMAaAQAAMAAJ&q=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&dq=In+terra+pax+hominibus+Leo+IX&hl=en
Church History Volume One: From Christ to Pre-Reformation: The Rise and Growth of the Church in its Cultural, Intellectual and Political Context By Everett Ferguson
http://books.google.com/books?id=VB_StdsoDV4C&pg=PT419&dq=In+terra+pax+Leo+IX&hl=en#v=onepage&q=In%20terra%20pax%20Leo%20IX&f=false
Documents illustrative of the history of the church Beresford James Kidd
http://books.google.com/books?id=AFUOAQAAIAAJ&q=In+terra+pax+Leo+IX&dq=In+terra+pax+Leo+IX&hl=en
The churches of eastern Christendom from A.D. 451 to the present time
http://books.google.com/books?id=CzkQAQAAIAAJ&q=In+terra+pax+Leo+IX&dq=In+terra+pax+Leo+IX&hl=en
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/john_salza_has_no_idea_what_he_is_talking_about.php
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/Privatican.htm
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2011, 08:26:18 PM »

I'm sure your Latin is at least adequate and far, far, *far* better than mine.  But when presenting a translation such as the one you're doing, with nothing else to compare it with....it would be useful to know what your level of competence actually is in Latin so as to be able to more precisely trust the accuracy of your translation.  By the way, I'd ask that of anyone, so please don't take it personally  Wink.
no  Wink just being proactive.  My competance is average/mediocre for someone who only has to deal with Latin as a auxilary, rather than main, language (the standard reference grammar for Arabic presumes you know Latin and Greek, and makes references to it, besides having to deal with some sources in Latin).

Btw, others:
Concilia Generalia, Et Provincialia, Graeca Et Latina ..., Volume 3, Issue 2 By Severin Binius
http://books.google.com/books?id=bIpEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=inhians+sectioni&source=bl&ots=nV7nzE1sQk&sig=hqQIJBb8rPgez9BdJqcTHywbkuI&hl=en#v=onepage&q=inhians%20sectioni&f=false
Conciliorum omnium, tam generalium, quam Provincialium, quae jam inde ab ... By Domenico Bollani
http://books.google.com/books?id=xCJLhrMb2ssC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=inhians+sectioni&source=bl&ots=lVgEfFy-cD&sig=IiLw8VMscvGRtC1jkKuPzgOdSEU&hl=en#v=onepage&q=inhians%20sectioni&f=false
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2011, 09:00:36 PM »

Quote
III. On account of what is true may impious heresy be ashamed and be confounded, shamelessly gaping to divide, and indeed to seperate the inseparable and indivisible unity, by contradicting and resisting not only the very nature of unity, nay even the conjecture of human wisdom.  Depart therefore faithless ravens, kites, vultures, and whatever birds from tearing to pieces or from death are fed. May the sole dove return to the ark and remaining upon the Head of the Lord Jesus, all His Body, which is the Church, be united, spread and fill again, and the unique dove of the diverse professions and nations among men and further from all tongues, as if to bring [that] about from the diverse members, to which from the voice of the Head, which is Christ Himself, says: One is my dove, my perfect [one], my spotless [one] [S of S 6:8, 5:2]. Which in fact is always called one, and she is, never divided nor cut off, which always perfect, is full of Him, never is diminished nor emptied, which ever spotless, never corrupted nor stained.  Because, even if sometimes very many come out from her in such a way so that they do not return, notwithstanding her unity is not thence rent, nor lessened from perfection, nor virginity violated.  Since indeed the members beloning to the raven return to it, as their body, from which for a time they were seen disunited, are reincorporated, and remains untouched that unique dove, to which they incorporated themselves and falsely boasted of being united. And how they groan under the perils among false brethren, their exposure by the exit, by the mouth of the Blessed John the Apostle freely bears witness: The went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would by all means have persisted with us. [I Jn. 2:19].  For if the breast of the dove, even as the humors of evil, as they were wont to press, and to continually provoke nausea, of any outbursts or opportunities by impulse to be brought out, or to be cast out, or capable to carry out, acknowledged to relieve it; and besides the same state of good health by its seperation to recall. But on the contrary however many depart will turn back, cannot be wholly be torn away or cut off from her; and if they are seen for some time torn away or cut off, because God knows who are His [II Tim. 2:19], through whose predestination are within without error, even those who are thought to be outside, and to stray; nor does any one snatch from His own hand, who right now precisely are supposed seized.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 09:01:16 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2011, 06:15:28 PM »

This letter evidently came up in defense of the canon of Trent:
Sessio quarta Concilii Tridentini vindicata seu Introductio in Scripturas ... By Luigi Vincenzi
http://books.google.com/books?id=eskCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=Catholica+vero+ecclesia+promissiones+tuas+retinens,+Domine,+quotidie+gaudet+compleri+in+doctoribus+suis+illud+Sapientiae&source=bl&ots=SceiUxapjb&sig=qOPgqSokmJ2pt0V1Tsi4U2MzVRE&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Catholica%20vero%20ecclesia%20promissiones%20tuas%20retinens%2C%20Domine%2C%20quotidie%20gaudet%20compleri%20in%20doctoribus%20suis%20illud%20Sapientiae&f=false
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 06:16:09 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2011, 12:46:49 AM »

Quote
IV. But woe to the men of pride and of arrogance [of ignorance], who are members of Antichrist, and his designated forerunners, who is king over the whole sons of pride, not ceasing the plagues of tares to scatter in the midst of the wheat, and the harvest, for whom the heavenly storehouse is preparesd, as many as is among them, to rub against.  Of whose dangerous time the beloved virgin of the Lord John has willed us to instruct us: Children, [I am] saying, it is the latest hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist comes, now however many Antichrists are made [1. Jo. 2:18].  This last hour from the first coming of the Saviour begun, till His second coming is extended.  How many Antichrists already will have been and have been uncovered, who can say? And moreover of which the teacher of the nations, wonderful Paul, at Ephesus, in the Acts of the Apostles said:For I know, shall grievous wolves enter in among you after my departing not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves [Acts 20:29-30].  But, O Lord Jesus, watchful shepherd, and the lion of the tribe of Juda, Who, according to the Psalmist, upon the asp and the basilisk You march, and trample down the lion and the dragon [Ps. 90/91:13], now at the end of ages the sheep of Your pasture, exhausted by various traps and the madness of countless wolves hitherto, mercifully attend, and rebuke the wild [beast] of the reed [Ps 67/68:31], which rage, and his teeth gnashed upon the humility of Your Church, supported and protected by a reed, that is, worldly power, outwardly indeed polished, but inward empty where, as is said to the blessed Job by the divine voice, Not only all the beasts of the field play [Job 40:20], namely, undoubtedly the uproar of evil spirits debauched according to their pleasure, but also of course Behemot, certainly their prince, in the same place under the shadow  sleeps in the retreat of the reed and in the wet places, while without some disquiet or objection in the hearts of the proud and deceitful rests secure.  However the Catholic Church keeps Your promises, O Lord, daily rejoicing in filling up in its teachers with the Wisdom: The just shall shine, and run to and fro as sparks among the reeds/straw [Wis 3:7], and burn the reeds tossed about by the wind.  Then the wild [beast] of the reeds perish alike together, in which is the congregation of bulls [Ps. 67/68:31], namely a crowd of heresiarchs by stubborn guidance dragging behind themselves cows, that is, the wanton souls of the people, so that who are esteemed as silver, be excluded, namely, appear perfect in the divine utterance and firm in the faith, stand out or be manifested.  Obviously silver signifies the divine utterance, as the same Psalmist is called to testify: The Utterance of the Lord, morally pure utterance, silver tried by fire [Ps. 11/12:7].  On the contrary through exclusion, silver or gold after a fashion by art is brought up, lifted up and squeezed out, that it may be sudden seen spread out, and distinguished with fitting forms of different ornament or images, which previously lay plain and humble.  Which all briefly and clearly thus are uttered the great Paul: It is necessary for there to be heresies, that they who are approved, may be made manifest among you [1. Cor. 11:19]. But, O evil heresy, do not thence flatter yourself, that from the Apostle, It is necessary to be heresies, hear.  For in the Holy Gospel Our Lord says: It is necessary that scandals come, but woe to that man through whom the scandal comes! " [Matt. 18:7].  Nay, dross is not in vain in the goldsmith's furnace, for gold is not purged, if the dross is not burned off.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 06:23:29 PM »

I thought I might get back to this, but add the original for any one who wants to compare.
Quote
LEONIS IX.
EPISTOLA AD MICHAELEM CONSTANTINOPOLITANUM PATRIARCHAM ADVERSUS EIUS ET LEONIS ACHRIDANI EPISCOPI INAUDITAS PRAESUMPTIONES ET NIMIAS VANITATES
Leo episcopus, servus servorum Dei, Michaeli Constantinopolitano et Leoni Achridano episcopis.
I. In terra pax hominibus bonae voluntutis (Luc. 2). Hujusmodi exordium docuit nos illud Dominicum: In quamcunque domum aut civitatem intraveritis, primum dicite: Pax huic domui; et si ibi fuerit filius pacis, requiescet super illum pax vestra; sin autem, ad vos revertetur (Luc. 10). In pace etenim vocavit nos Deus (1. Cor. 7), qui est pax nostra; qui fecit utraque unum, et veniens evangelizavit pacem his qui longe, et his qui prope erant (Ephcs. 2): et inter nonnulla dixit: Beati pacifici, quoniam filii Dei vocabuntur (Matth. 5). Quorum pedes Deiloquus Isaias admiratus, proclamat: Quam speciosi pedes evangelizantium pacem! (Isa. 52; Rom. 10). Ad quam magnus Paulus contestando sic discipulos adhortatur: Pacem sequimini cum omnibus, et sanctimoniam, sine qua netno videbit Deum (Hebr. 12). Et: Si fieri potest, quod ex vobis est, cum omnibus hominibus pacem habcntes (Rom. 12). Et rursum: Pacem habete, et deus dilcctionis et pacis erit vobiscum (2.Cor.l3). Nec immerito dicente discipulis suis, imo omnibus Christianis ipso Domino: Pacem relinquo vobis, pacem meum da vobis (loan. 14). Quae utique quam germano et unanimi affectu, et indissolubilis foederis nexu retinenda sit, hinc potest colligi quod eam ultimam cohaeredibus et comparticipibus suis, velut haereditario et perpetuo jure commendatam, sub testamento mox suo sanguine subscripto et pia morte confirmato reliquit, quasi diceret: Fratres et cohaeredes mei, relinquo vobis ex patrimonio  nostro sortem, temporalem videlicet pacem;quam si integram et incontaminatam in fine mihi representaveritis, meam sortem, pacem scilicet sompiternam, adjungo vobis. Nec his contentus, Patri aequalis, Patreque minor, pro hac ipsa Patrem sic deprecatur, ad Patrem suum et Patrem nostrum, a quo nunquam discesserat, rediturus: Pater, quos dedisti mihi, volo ut sint unum, sicut ct nos unum sumus, et sint consummati in unum (Ioan. 17).
Quote
Leo IX
Epistle to Michael Cerularius, Patriarch of Constantinople, against him and the unheard of presumpitons and excessive vanities of Leo bishop of Ohrid.


Leo, bishop, Servant of the Servants of God
to Michael and Leo, bishops of Constantinople and Ohrid.

I. On earth peace to men of good will [Luke 2:14].  Likewise the Lord's exordium teaches us that: In whatsoever house or city you enter, first say "peace to this house," and if there be a son of peace there, your peace shall remain on it, but if otherwise, it will return to you [Luke 10:5-6].  In peace indeed God has called us[I Cor. 7:15], Who is our peace; and Who made both one, and coming has preached peace to those who are far off, and to those who were near [Ephesus 2:14, 17] and amongst some said Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God [Mat. 5:9].  Whose feet Isaiah the Theologian in admiration, crys out, How beautiful are the feet of the gospel of peace! [Isa. 52:7; Rom. 10:15].  How great is Paul witnessing so to urge the disciples on: Follow peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see God [Heb 12:14].   Also: If it can be, what is of you, having peace with all men [Rom 12:18]. And again: Have peace, and the God of love and peace shall be with you [II Cor. 13:11].  Not even unjustifiably does the Lord Himself say to his disciples, yea, to all Christians: Peace I leave to you, I give you my peace [John 14:27]. Which assuredly by such true and unanimous desire, and moreover should be retained by the indissoluble connection of the covenant, hence it can be gathered that by His co-heirs and sharers in the latter, even as commened by  hereditary and perpetual right, soon subscribed under the covenant of His blood and confirmed by pious death  He left, as if to say:My brothers and co-heirs, I leave you a lot from our patrimony, peace manifestly temporal, which if pure and undefiled in the end truely represents to Me, My lot, namely peace, I command you.  Not content with these, equal to the Father and less than the Father, for this so implores to the Very Father, to His Father and Our Father, from Whom He is never parted, shall return: Father, whom You have given Me, I want to be one, even as We are one, and let them be made perfect in one [John 17:11, 22-23].
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2012, 02:54:27 PM »

Quote
II. Sed Vac mundo a scandalis(Matth. 18), quia, cum pene omnes paginae divinae nos pariter invitent ad bonum unitatis et pacis, quatenus cor unum et anima una sit nohis in eo qui unanimes in domo sua, quae est catholica ecclesia, habitare facit exstitere tamen, hactenus, et existunt miseri homines, sua, non quae sunt Jesu Christi, quaerentes (Philip. 2), per omnia militibus Dominum gloriae crucifigentibus nequiores. Illi siquidem corruptibili tunicae ipsius, quia iuconsutilis et desuper contexta erat per totum, pepercerunt, dicentes: Non scindamus cam (Ioan. 19), quadam utique reverentia admirati et textricis diligentiam et operis elegantiam. Isti vero incorruptibili charitati ejus, qua univit ecclesiam, ut exhiberet sibi vestem gloriosam, non habentem maculam aut rugam, impias et sacrilegas manus ad discindendum crudeliter injiciunt, linguas magniloquas et dolosas ad confodiendam illam exacuunt; nihili pendentes ineffabili et speciali artificio coaeternae Deo Patri sapientiae compactam et contextam, nec humano ingenio seu philosophorum syllogismis aut argumentationibus consutam: Stulta enim mundi elegit Deus, ut confundat sapientes (1. Cor.1). Neque enim per rhetores et sophistas collegit piscatores, sed per piscatores et simplices piscatus est sophistas et oratores, quia sicut egregius Paulus dicit: Non est in sermone regnum Dei, sed in virtute (1. Cor. 4).
Now, the plesentries evidently gotten out of the way:
Quote
II. But Woe to the world because of scanadals [Mat. 18:7], which, with almost all the divine pages inviting us together to the good of unity and peace, so that one heart and one mind be in us in Him who of one mind is in His house, which is the Catholic Church, for all that do make to remain to dwell, up to now, and miserable men come forth, their own, not the things which are of Jesus Christ, seeking [Phil. 2:21], in all things more wicked than the soldiers crucifying the Lord of Glory. Since indeed these corruptible [ones] His own robe, because it was seamless and woven from above and through the whole, have spared, saying "Let us not rend it [John 19:24], by a certain reverence assuredly have been admired and moreover the diligence of the weavers and the elegance of the work.  These in truth from His imperishable charity, which united the Church, to present it to Himself a glorious garment not having a spot or wrinkle, impious and sacriligious hands to rend asunder cruelly take possession, sharpening boastful and deceitful tongues to dig, esteeming as nothing [that which is] by the ineffible and special skill of the co-eternal to God Wisdom of the Father joined together and bound, not by the human mind nor by syllogisms of philosophers nor by arguments sewn together: For God chose the foolish of the world to confound the wise[I Cor. 1:27].  For not through rhetoricians nor sophists do the fishermen catch, but through fishermen and moreover the simple the catch of fish is sophists and orators, because as the extraordinary Paul says: The Kingdom of God is not in words, but in strength.[I Cor. 4:20]

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,913


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2012, 03:01:46 PM »

Is this the full translation? If not, are you still interested in doing this? Perhaps I can help.
Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2012, 03:12:19 PM »

Is this the full translation? If not, are you still interested in doing this? Perhaps I can help.
No, I just started, and now have returned to it. It's 40 or so paragraphs.

If you want to join in the fun, feel free.
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1049-1054,_SS_Leo_IX,_Epistolae_Et_Decreta,_MLT.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?id=Q7LeqYiWFo4C&pg=PA65&dq=EPISTOLA+AD+MICHAELEM+CONSTANTINOPOLITANUM+PATRIARCHAM+ADVERSUS+EIUS+ET+LEONIS+ACHRIDANI+EPISCOPI+INAUDITAS&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BcG_UNOfH6WQ2AXqyoD4DA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

I've got para. 1-5 done.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2012, 03:29:16 PM »

Quote
III. Verum erubescat et confundatur impia haeresis, impudenter inhians sectioni atque divisioni insecabilis et indivisibilis unitatis, reclamante et repugnante non solum ipsius unitatis natura, sed etiam humanae sapientiae conjectura. Discedant ergo perfidi corvi, milvi, vultures, et quaecunque laniatu vel morte aliena pascuntur aves. Sola columba ad arcam redeat et super caput Domini Jesu manens, totum corpus ejus, quod est Ecclesia, uniat, infundat et repleat, unicamque columbam de diversae professionis et nationis hominibus atque linguis omnibus, quasi de diversis membris efficiat, cui voce Capitis, quod est ipse Christus, dicat: Una est columba mea, perfecta mea, immaculata mea (Cant. 5). Quac enim semper una vocatur, et est, nunquam dividitur aut secatur; quae semper perfecta, hoc est plena, nunquam minuitur aut evacuatur; quae semper immaculata, nunquam corrumpitur aut maculatur. Quoniam, etsi nonnunquam ab ea plerique ita exeunt ut non revertantur, non tamen ejus unitas inde discinditur, aut perfectio minoratur, seu virginitas violatur. Quandoquidem membra corvina ad hoc revertuntur, ut suo corpori, a quo ad tempus videbantur esse disjuncta, reincorporentur, et integerrima permaneat columba illa unica, cui se incorporatos et unitos falso gloriabantur. Et quae gemebat sub periculis in falsis fratribus, revelata illoruni exitu, per os beati Ioannis apostoli libere protestatur: Ex nobis exierunt, sed non erant ex nobis. Nam si fuissent ex nobis, permansissent utique nobiscum (1. Ioan. 2). Qui enim pectus columbae, velut humores mali, solebant premere, et ad nauseam jugiter provocare, alicujus accessionis vel occasionis impulsu egressi, vel ejecti, aut potius egesti, comprobautur cam relevare; atque bonae valetudinis statum sua discessione eidem revocare. Quotquot autem exeunt redituri, omnino ab ea nequenut avelli aut praecidi; et si videntur aliquandiu avulsi aut praecisi, quia Novis Deus gui sunt ejus (2. Tim. 2), per cujus praedestinationem sunt intus sine errore, etiam qui putantur foris esse, et errare; nec rapit quisqnam de manu ipsius, quos jam prorsus raptos suspicabamur.
Quote
III. On account of what is true may impious heresy be ashamed and be confounded, shamelessly gaping to divide, and indeed to seperate the inseparable and indivisible unity, by contradicting and resisting not only the very nature of unity, nay even the conjecture of human wisdom.  Depart therefore faithless ravens, kites, vultures, and whatever birds from tearing to pieces or from death are fed. May the sole dove return to the ark and remaining upon the Head of the Lord Jesus, all His Body, which is the Church, be united, spread and fill again, and the unique dove of the diverse professions and nations among men and further from all tongues, as if to bring [that] about from the diverse members, to which from the voice of the Head, which is Christ Himself, says: One is my dove, my perfect [one], my spotless [one] [S of S 6:8, 5:2]. Which in fact is always called one, and she is, never divided nor cut off, which always perfect, is full of Him, never is diminished nor emptied, which ever spotless, never corrupted nor stained.  Because, even if sometimes very many come out from her in such a way so that they do not return, notwithstanding her unity is not thence rent, nor lessened from perfection, nor virginity violated.  Since indeed the members beloning to the raven return to it, as their body, from which for a time they were seen disunited, are reincorporated, and remains untouched that unique dove, to which they incorporated themselves and falsely boasted of being united. And how they groan under the perils among false brethren, their exposure by the exit, by the mouth of the Blessed John the Apostle freely bears witness: The went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would by all means have persisted with us. [I Jn. 2:19].  For if the breast of the dove, even as the humors of evil, as they were wont to press, and to continually provoke nausea, of any outbursts or opportunities by impulse to be brought out, or to be cast out, or capable to carry out, acknowledged to relieve it; and besides the same state of good health by its seperation to recall. But on the contrary however many depart will turn back, cannot be wholly be torn away or cut off from her; and if they are seen for some time torn away or cut off, because God knows who are His [II Tim. 2:19], through whose predestination are within without error, even those who are thought to be outside, and to stray; nor does any one snatch from His own hand, who right now precisely are supposed seized.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2012, 03:53:11 PM »

Quote
IV. Sed vae hominum superbiae et arrogantiae [ignorantiae], qui membra Antichristi, et praecursores ejus affecti, qui est rex super universos filios superbiae, non cessant zizaniorum pestes in medium tritici spargere, et messem, cui caeleste praeparatur horreum, quantum in eis est, atterere. De quorum periculoso tempore dilectus Domini virgo Ioannes voluit nos instruere: Filioli, inquiens, novissima hora est, et sicut audistis quia Antichristus venit, nunc autem Antichristi multi facti sunt (1. loan. 2). Haec novissima hora a primo adventu Salvatoris incoepta, usque ad secundum ejus adventum est protendenda. Quae quot Antichristos jam habuerit aut detexerit, dicere quis poterit? De quibus et Doctor gentium, mirabilis Paulus, Ephesiis in Actibus apostolorum ait: Ego scio, quoniam intrabunt post discessioncm meam lupi graves in vos non parcentes gregi; et ex vobis ipsis exsurgent viri loquentes perversu, uti abducant discipulos post se (Act. 20). Sed, o Domine Jesu, pervigil pastor, et leo de tribu Juda, qui, secundum Psalmistam, super aspidem et basiliscum ambulas, et conculcas leonem et draconem (Psal. 90), jam in fine saeculorum oves pascuae tuae, variis insidiis et rabie innumerabilium luporum hactenus fessas, miseranter attende, et increpa feras arundinis (Psal. 67), quae saeviunt, et dentibus frendunt super humilitatem ecclesiae tuae, fulti et protecti arundineto, id est, mundana potestate, exterius quidem nitida, sed internus vacua ubi, sicut ad beatum Job divina voce dicitur: Non solum omnes bestiae agri ludunt (Job 40), cuncta scilicet turba malignorum spirituum secundum libitum suum debacchatur, venun etiam Behemot, eorum utique princeps, ibidem sub umbra dormit in secreto calami et locis humentibus, cum sine aliqua inquietudine vel contradictione in superborum et lubricorum cordibus requiescit securus. Catholica vero ecclesia promissiones tuas retinens, Domine, quotidie gaudet compleri in doctoribus suis illud Sapientiae: Fulgebunt justi, et tanquam scintillae in arundineto discurrent (Sap. 3), atque vento agitatas arundines comburent. Tunc ferae arundinis pariter interient, in quibus est congregatio taurorum (Psal. 67), coetus videlicet haeresiarcharum cervicoso ducatu post se trahentiuin vaccas, id est, lascivas animas populorum, ut qui probati sunt argento, excludantur, scilicet perfecti in eloquiis divinis et stabiles in fide appareant, emineant vel manifestentur. Argento quippe eloquia divina significantur, ut idem Psalmista testatur: Eloquia Domini, eloquia casta, argentum igne examinatum (Psal. 11). Per exclusioncm autem, argentum vel aurum quodam artificio subrigitur, clevatur et exprimitur, ut repente videatur respersum, et insignitum decenti figuratione diversonun florum aut imaginum, quod prius humile jacebat et planum. Quod totum brevius et clarius sic eloquitur magnus Paulus: Oportet haereses essc, ut qui probati sunt. manifesti fiant in vobis (1. Cor. 11). Sed, o maligna haeresis, non inde tibi blandiaris, quod ab Apostolo, Oportet haereses esse, audieris. Etenim in sancto evangelio Dominus noster dicit: Necesse est ut veniant scandala;verumtamen vae hotnini per quem scandalum venit! (Matth. 18). Nempe non est frustra in fornace aurificis palea, quia aurum non purgatur, si palea non uratur.
Quote
IV. But woe to the men of pride and of arrogance [of ignorance], who are members of Antichrist, and his designated forerunners, who is king over the whole sons of pride, not ceasing the plagues of tares to scatter in the midst of the wheat, and the harvest, for whom the heavenly storehouse is preparesd, as many as is among them, to rub against.  Of whose dangerous time the beloved virgin of the Lord John has willed us to instruct us: Children, [I am] saying, it is the latest hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist comes, now however many Antichrists are made [1. Jo. 2:18].  This last hour from the first coming of the Saviour begun, till His second coming is extended.  How many Antichrists already will have been and have been uncovered, who can say? And moreover of which the teacher of the nations, wonderful Paul, at Ephesus, in the Acts of the Apostles said:For I know, shall grievous wolves enter in among you after my departing not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves [Acts 20:29-30].  But, O Lord Jesus, watchful shepherd, and the lion of the tribe of Juda, Who, according to the Psalmist, upon the asp and the basilisk You march, and trample down the lion and the dragon [Ps. 90/91:13], now at the end of ages the sheep of Your pasture, exhausted by various traps and the madness of countless wolves hitherto, mercifully attend, and rebuke the wild [beast] of the reed [Ps 67/68:31], which rage, and his teeth gnashed upon the humility of Your Church, supported and protected by a reed, that is, worldly power, outwardly indeed polished, but inward empty where, as is said to the blessed Job by the divine voice, Not only all the beasts of the field play [Job 40:20], namely, undoubtedly the uproar of evil spirits debauched according to their pleasure, but also of course Behemot, certainly their prince, in the same place under the shadow  sleeps in the retreat of the reed and in the wet places, while without some disquiet or objection in the hearts of the proud and deceitful rests secure.  However the Catholic Church keeps Your promises, O Lord, daily rejoicing in filling up in its teachers with the Wisdom: The just shall shine, and run to and fro as sparks among the reeds/straw [Wis 3:7], and burn the reeds tossed about by the wind.  Then the wild [beast] of the reeds perish alike together, in which is the congregation of bulls [Ps. 67/68:31], namely a crowd of heresiarchs by stubborn guidance dragging behind themselves cows, that is, the wanton souls of the people, so that who are esteemed as silver, be excluded, namely, appear perfect in the divine utterance and firm in the faith, stand out or be manifested.  Obviously silver signifies the divine utterance, as the same Psalmist is called to testify: The Utterance of the Lord, morally pure utterance, silver tried by fire [Ps. 11/12:7].  On the contrary through exclusion, silver or gold after a fashion by art is brought up, lifted up and squeezed out, that it may be sudden seen spread out, and distinguished with fitting forms of different ornament or images, which previously lay plain and humble.  Which all briefly and clearly thus are uttered the great Paul: It is necessary for there to be heresies, that they who are approved, may be made manifest among you [1. Cor. 11:19]. But, O evil heresy, do not thence flatter yourself, that from the Apostle, It is necessary to be heresies, hear.  For in the Holy Gospel Our Lord says: It is necessary that scandals come, but woe to that man through whom the scandal comes! " [Matt. 18:7].  Nay, dross is not in vain in the goldsmith's furnace, for gold is not purged, if the dross is not burned off.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,913


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2012, 04:08:45 PM »

Paragraph V looks interesting. If you have it translated already please post it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 04:08:59 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2012, 04:17:03 PM »

Paragraph V looks interesting. If you have it translated already please post it.
will momentarily, Lord willing.  I did it a while ago and thought I gone through it once, but unfortunately had not.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2012, 04:57:51 PM »

2) I read Latin (in fact, it was the first language I attempted, when I was eight).  Anyone who is better equipped, has a degree in Latin, whatever, is more than welcome to critique or do it instead.  I won't get jealous, I promise.
Pretty impressive!
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2012, 10:36:49 AM »

Quote
V. Haec et alia similia his cum pene onmes sacri eloquii paginae contra impudentem vesaniam haereticorum concrepent, vehementer obstupescimus, et lacrymis charitatis plangimus. sic edormisse ecclesiae sacerdotes, quatenus qui Dei debuerant esse adjutores, non exhorreant eorum fieri sequaces quorum memoriam cum sonitu periisse, et civitates destructas vident. Inde est totum illud, quod tandem cum indicibili contritione et gemitu cordis ac corporis effundimus, in quo omnia viscera catholicae matris concutiuntur; in quo omnes sensus Christianorum obtunduntur, in quo disciplina ecclesiastica et sanctorum vigor canonum confunditur ac calcatur, quia tu, charissime nobis, et adhuc dicende in Christo frater et antistes Constantinopolitanae, tuque Leo Achridane, dicimini apostolicam et Latinam ecclesiam nova praesumptione, atque incredibili audacia, nec auditam nec convictam palam damnasse, pro eo maxime quod de azymis audeat commemorationem Dominicae passionis celebrare. Ecce incauta reprehensio vestra, ecce non bona gloriatio vestra, quando ponitis in coelum os vestrum, cum lingua vestra transiens in terra, humanis argumentationibus et coujecturis antiquam fidem confodere ac subvertere moliatur. Ecce, nisi quantocius resipiscatis, incorporati et annumerati, quod absit! erilis in illa cauda draconis, qua tertiam partem stellarum coeli traxit, et in terram misit. Ecce jam post mille ac ferme viginti a passione Salvatoris nostri annos, incipit per vos discere Romana ecclesia qualiter memoria passionis ejusdem sit recolenda, quasi nil ei contulerit praesentia, conversatio et diuturna institutio, seu, qua clarificavit Deum, morspretiosa illius venerabilis senis, cui specialiter Christus Filius Dei vivi dicit: Beatus es, Simon Bar-Iona, quia caro et sanguis non revelavit tibi, sed Pater meus, qui est in coelis (Matth. 16).

Quote
V. These and other such like things with almost all pages of the sacred word beating against the imprudent madness of the heretics, vehemently stupid, we cry tears of charity.  So the priests of the church had slept [it] off, to the extent that they ought to be helpers of God, not dreading to become their followers whose memory has perished with a clang, and the cities they see destroyed.  Hence it is the whole of that, that finally with indescribable grief and sorrow of the heart and body we pour forth, in which all the entrails/womb of the Catholic mother is shaken; in which all the feelings of the Christians are weakened, in which ecclesiastical discipline and the vigor of the Holy Canons is confused and and trodden down, for you, dearest to us, and still must be called brother in Christ and the overseer of Constantinople, and you Leo of Ohrid, call the Apostolic and Latin Church by a new presumption, and incredible audacity, not yet heard nor publicly convicted, condemned, for this especially by unleavened bread it dares to celebrate the commemoration of the Passion of the Lord.  Behold, your reckless reproof, behold, no good your boasting, when you turn your mouth against heaven, with your tongue passing on earth, by human arguments and conjectures endeavoring to strike down and overthrow the ancient faith. Behold, unless you come to your senses/repent the sooner the better, incorporated and numbered, which God forbid! in that tail of the dragon, which dragged off the third part of the stars of heaven, and hurled [them] to earth. See now after a thousand and almost twenty years from the passion of our Saviour, the Roman church begins through you to learn just as the memory of the same passion is to be recalled, as if it profited it nothing being on hand, familiar intercourse and long term instruction, or that, which has made God illustrious, the precious death of that venerable old man, to whom Christ the Son of the living God specifically says, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood have not revealed it to you, but my Father, Who is in heaven (Matt. 16:17).
Cyrillic, you want to do para. 6?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 10:39:16 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,913


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2012, 11:41:35 AM »

Quote
V. Haec et alia similia his cum pene onmes sacri eloquii paginae contra impudentem vesaniam haereticorum concrepent, vehementer obstupescimus, et lacrymis charitatis plangimus. sic edormisse ecclesiae sacerdotes, quatenus qui Dei debuerant esse adjutores, non exhorreant eorum fieri sequaces quorum memoriam cum sonitu periisse, et civitates destructas vident. Inde est totum illud, quod tandem cum indicibili contritione et gemitu cordis ac corporis effundimus, in quo omnia viscera catholicae matris concutiuntur; in quo omnes sensus Christianorum obtunduntur, in quo disciplina ecclesiastica et sanctorum vigor canonum confunditur ac calcatur, quia tu, charissime nobis, et adhuc dicende in Christo frater et antistes Constantinopolitanae, tuque Leo Achridane, dicimini apostolicam et Latinam ecclesiam nova praesumptione, atque incredibili audacia, nec auditam nec convictam palam damnasse, pro eo maxime quod de azymis audeat commemorationem Dominicae passionis celebrare. Ecce incauta reprehensio vestra, ecce non bona gloriatio vestra, quando ponitis in coelum os vestrum, cum lingua vestra transiens in terra, humanis argumentationibus et coujecturis antiquam fidem confodere ac subvertere moliatur. Ecce, nisi quantocius resipiscatis, incorporati et annumerati, quod absit! erilis in illa cauda draconis, qua tertiam partem stellarum coeli traxit, et in terram misit. Ecce jam post mille ac ferme viginti a passione Salvatoris nostri annos, incipit per vos discere Romana ecclesia qualiter memoria passionis ejusdem sit recolenda, quasi nil ei contulerit praesentia, conversatio et diuturna institutio, seu, qua clarificavit Deum, morspretiosa illius venerabilis senis, cui specialiter Christus Filius Dei vivi dicit: Beatus es, Simon Bar-Iona, quia caro et sanguis non revelavit tibi, sed Pater meus, qui est in coelis (Matth. 16).

Quote
V. These and other such like things with almost all pages of the sacred word beating against the imprudent madness of the heretics, vehemently stupid, we cry tears of charity.  So the priests of the church had slept [it] off, to the extent that they ought to be helpers of God, not dreading to become their followers whose memory has perished with a clang, and the cities they see destroyed.  Hence it is the whole of that, that finally with indescribable grief and sorrow of the heart and body we pour forth, in which all the entrails/womb of the Catholic mother is shaken; in which all the feelings of the Christians are weakened, in which ecclesiastical discipline and the vigor of the Holy Canons is confused and and trodden down, for you, dearest to us, and still must be called brother in Christ and the overseer of Constantinople, and you Leo of Ohrid, call the Apostolic and Latin Church by a new presumption, and incredible audacity, not yet heard nor publicly convicted, condemned, for this especially by unleavened bread it dares to celebrate the commemoration of the Passion of the Lord.  Behold, your reckless reproof, behold, no good your boasting, when you turn your mouth against heaven, with your tongue passing on earth, by human arguments and conjectures endeavoring to strike down and overthrow the ancient faith. Behold, unless you come to your senses/repent the sooner the better, incorporated and numbered, which God forbid! in that tail of the dragon, which dragged off the third part of the stars of heaven, and hurled [them] to earth. See now after a thousand and almost twenty years from the passion of our Saviour, the Roman church begins through you to learn just as the memory of the same passion is to be recalled, as if it profited it nothing being on hand, familiar intercourse and long term instruction, or that, which has made God illustrious, the precious death of that venerable old man, to whom Christ the Son of the living God specifically says, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood have not revealed it to you, but my Father, Who is in heaven (Matt. 16:17).
Cyrillic, you want to do para. 6?

I hope to do it tonight.
Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,913


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2012, 05:44:34 PM »

That was a difficult piece. I sometimes chose for a freer translation if that would make reading easier and I'm not so sure about the "quasi usque ad pedes crescentia, inflexibili colle ad caelos sustolleret" part.
Quote
VI. Thus you do not consider how shamelessly it may be said that the Father, who is in heaven, hid from Peter, the prince of the apostles, the worship (or rite) of the visible sacrifice by the dispensation of his Only-Begotten.  He [i.e. Peter] was deemed to be most worthy by Him to reveal that ineffable mystery of the invisible divinity of His Son. The Lord of angels and prophets Himself, not by an angel nor by a prophet, but by His own mouth promised him in the following words “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church (Matt. 16:18)” that from his head you have your hands full to withdraw Christ Jesus, besides Whom nobody can lay another foundation of the universal Church (1 Cor. 3).

Not only living, but even dying that most devout Peter demonstrated that [i.e. the ineffable mystery?], when he requested with humility beyond measure and as a fitting sign, to be crucified with his head downwards, assuredly prefiguring through divine inspiration that he is joined together, cohering and fastened to the first and square Stone in fundament, which is Jesus Christ. Who [i.e. Peter], since he is placed on the cornerstone, carried the whole weight of the ecclesiastical fabric with incorruptible solidity and on whose own head were placed all members of the Church of Christ, according to proper and natural bonds, and continually, as if increasing to the feet, sustained [them], on an inflexible hill, to the heavens.

Quote
VI. Non ergo perpenditis quanta impudentia dicatur Pater, qui est in coelis, abscondisse a principe apostolorum, Petro, cultum sive ritum visibilis sacrificii, per dispensationem Unigeniti sui. Et cui non per angelum, nec per prophetam, sed proprio ore, ipse Dominum angelorum et prophetarum sic repromittit in sequentibus “Et ego dico, quia tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam (ibid.)” illius capiti vos satagitis subtrahere Christum Jesum, praetor quem nemo potest universali Ecclesiae aliud ponere fundamentum (1 Cor. 3).

Quod utique devotissimus ille Petrus non solum vivens, sed etiam moriens demonstravit, quando nimia humilitate et congrua significatione se crucifigi deorsum verso capite petivit; profecto divina interpretation praefigurans sese esse primum et quadrum lapidem in fundamento, quod est Christus Jesus, compaginatum, cohaerentem atque connexum; qui, utpote superpositus angulari lapidi totum pondus ecclesiasticae fabricae incorruptibili soliditate sufferet, ac proprii capitis suppositione omnia membra corporis Christi per aptas et naturales compages, usque ad consummationem saeculi, quasi usque ad pedes crescentia, inflexibili colle ad caelos sustolleret.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 05:46:40 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2012, 06:05:17 PM »

That was a difficult piece. I sometimes chose for a freer translation if that would make reading easier and I'm not so sure about the "quasi usque ad pedes crescentia, inflexibili colle ad caelos sustolleret" part.
Quote
VI. Thus you do not consider how shamelessly it may be said that the Father, who is in heaven, hid from Peter, the prince of the apostles, the worship (or rite) of the visible sacrifice by the dispensation of his Only-Begotten.  He [i.e. Peter] was deemed to be most worthy by Him to reveal that ineffable mystery of the invisible divinity of His Son. The Lord of angels and prophets Himself, not by an angel nor by a prophet, but by His own mouth promised him in the following words “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church (Matt. 16:18)” that from his head you have your hands full to withdraw Christ Jesus, besides Whom nobody can lay another foundation of the universal Church (1 Cor. 3).

Not only living, but even dying that most devout Peter demonstrated that [i.e. the ineffable mystery?], when he requested with humility beyond measure and as a fitting sign, to be crucified with his head downwards, assuredly prefiguring through divine inspiration that he is joined together, cohering and fastened to the first and square Stone in fundament, which is Jesus Christ. Who [i.e. Peter], since he is placed on the cornerstone, carried the whole weight of the ecclesiastical fabric with incorruptible solidity and on whose own head were placed all members of the Church of Christ, according to proper and natural bonds, and continually, as if increasing to the feet, sustained [them], on an inflexible hill, to the heavens.

Quote
VI. Non ergo perpenditis quanta impudentia dicatur Pater, qui est in coelis, abscondisse a principe apostolorum, Petro, cultum sive ritum visibilis sacrificii, per dispensationem Unigeniti sui. Et cui non per angelum, nec per prophetam, sed proprio ore, ipse Dominum angelorum et prophetarum sic repromittit in sequentibus “Et ego dico, quia tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam (ibid.)” illius capiti vos satagitis subtrahere Christum Jesum, praetor quem nemo potest universali Ecclesiae aliud ponere fundamentum (1 Cor. 3).

Quod utique devotissimus ille Petrus non solum vivens, sed etiam moriens demonstravit, quando nimia humilitate et congrua significatione se crucifigi deorsum verso capite petivit; profecto divina interpretation praefigurans sese esse primum et quadrum lapidem in fundamento, quod est Christus Jesus, compaginatum, cohaerentem atque connexum; qui, utpote superpositus angulari lapidi totum pondus ecclesiasticae fabricae incorruptibili soliditate sufferet, ac proprii capitis suppositione omnia membra corporis Christi per aptas et naturales compages, usque ad consummationem saeculi, quasi usque ad pedes crescentia, inflexibili colle ad caelos sustolleret.
I take the ramblings to mean that St. Peter from head to toe provides the structure to the Church as the Body of Christ "to the consumation of the ages," with an image of the least dignified part of his body raised high to the heavens as a head or crown would, pushing the members up with his legs.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,913


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2012, 06:08:30 PM »

I suppose. It seems to be a weird interpretation of St. Peter's martyrdom in Rome. I have no idea what he was really trying to say with the metaphor (and probably neither did EP Caerularius). It seems to be a strange argument for universal jurisdiction and with the whole "withdraw from his head" thing (that sentence is just weird) he seems to be trying to say that the Orthodox should receive their faith from the head, i.e. Pope Leo IX himself. Paragraph 7 connects St. Peter and the Roman See.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 06:15:46 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2012, 06:23:02 PM »

I suppose. It seems to be a weird interpretation of St. Peter's martyrdom in Rome.
Grasping at straws will do that.
I have no idea what he was really trying to say with the metaphor (and probably neither did EP Caerularius). It seems to be a strange argument for universal jurisdiction and with the whole "withdraw from his head" thing (that sentence is just weird) he seems to be trying to say that the Orthodox should receive their faith from the head, i.e. Pope Leo IX himself. Paragraph 7 connects St. Peter and the Roman See.
you taking para. 7?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 06:26:02 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,913


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2012, 06:25:50 PM »

OK.
Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,226



« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2012, 07:34:08 PM »

I suppose. It seems to be a weird interpretation of St. Peter's martyrdom in Rome. I have no idea what he was really trying to say with the metaphor (and probably neither did EP Caerularius). It seems to be a strange argument for universal jurisdiction and with the whole "withdraw from his head" thing (that sentence is just weird) he seems to be trying to say that the Orthodox should receive their faith from the head, i.e. Pope Leo IX himself. Paragraph 7 connects St. Peter and the Roman See.
LOL. Well, if the argument is anything like the prooftexting they used for the Two Swords theory, then I can see why Patriarch Kiroularios did not know where they were going with it. Tongue This thread is really interesting. Could we put the whole thing together on a webpage or a word document at the end? Maybe, dare I say it, eBook format?

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Ruprecht
Formerly Subdeacon Bob.C
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Church of  N.A.; New England Diocese
Posts: 44



« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2012, 12:33:34 AM »

Excellent thread on an important topic, and a difficult task.  I am subscribing to this one.
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,913


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2012, 07:47:17 AM »

Paragraph 7.

Quote
VII. In such a manner the holy Church is built on the rock, that is Christ, and on Peter or Cephas, the son of John, who was previously called Simon, against whom the gates of hell, to wit the disputations of the heretics, who introduce vanities to their ruin, can by no means pierce that which has to survive [i.e. the true faith]. So promises Truth himself, by whom are the things that are true and "whatsoever things are true (Philippians 4:8.)": “The gates of hell shall not prevail against him (Matt. 16)”

For the completion of that promise the same Son testified of the Father in His prayers while speaking to the Father. “Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers (Luke 22:31-32)”. Thus, what shall he be who, with such a great madness, dares to deem His prayer, for whom to be willing is to be able, to be in vain in anything?  Is it not evident that from the throne of the prince of the apostles, the Roman Church, by the same Peter and his successors, the fabrications of the heretics were for so long judged, reprobated and defeated? And are [not] the hearts of the brothers in the faith of Peter, that thus far hasn’t failed and shall not fail in the end, confirmed?

Quote
VII. Taliter sancta ecclesia super petram id est Christum et super Petrum, vel Cepham filium Joannis, qui prius Simon dicebatur, aedificata, quia inferi portis, disputationibus scilicet haereticorum, quae vanos ad interitum introducent, nullatenus foret superanda. Sic pollicetur ipsa Veritas, per quam sunt vera, quaecunque sunt vera: Portae inferi non praevalebunt adversus eum (Matth. 16). Cujus promissionis effectum se precibus impetrasse a Patre idem Filius protestatur, dicendo ad Patrem: Simon, ecce Satanas expetivit vos, ut cribraret sicut triticum. Ego autem rogavi pro te ut non deficiat fides tua; et tu aliquando conversus confirmate fratres tuos (Luc. 22). Erit ergo quisquam tantae dementiae qui orationem illius eujus velle est posse, audeat in aliquo vacuam putare? Nonne a sede principis apostolorum, Romana videlicet Ecclesiam, tam per eumdem Petrum quam per successores suos, reprobata et convicta atque expugnata sunt omnium haereticorum commenta et fratrum corda in fide Petri, quae hactenus non deficit nec usque in finem deficiet, sunt confirmata?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 07:59:33 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.188 seconds with 60 queries.