OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 03:35:29 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why wont God heal amputees? - atheist's responce  (Read 5306 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« on: November 04, 2011, 01:41:03 AM »

Well, I'm glad you all worked this out amongst yourselves. But I think you missed the point of the link referenced in the OP. The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence. Every time a 'miracle' takes place, it tends to be something just beyond what science can fully explain. No miracles like regrowing as a limb or the re-sequencing of already sequenced and verified DNA ever seem to happen, all so-called 'miracles' tend to happen beyond the frontiers of science. To an outside observer, it all just seems too convenient.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2011, 01:48:40 AM »

The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence.
You can't prove God exists.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2011, 01:50:56 AM »

The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence.
You can't prove God exists.

Of course not, but I can explain the universe without a deity which renders the question moot.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2011, 01:56:29 AM »

Well, I'm glad you all worked this out amongst yourselves. But I think you missed the point of the link referenced in the OP. The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence. Every time a 'miracle' takes place, it tends to be something just beyond what science can fully explain. No miracles like regrowing as a limb or the re-sequencing of already sequenced and verified DNA ever seem to happen, all so-called 'miracles' tend to happen beyond the frontiers of science. To an outside observer, it all just seems too convenient.

I can see that, and often wonder.
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,094


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2011, 02:25:26 AM »

The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence.
You can't prove God exists.

Of course not, but I can explain the universe without a deity which renders the question moot.


Really? You can? I'd love to see you do that. Even Richard Dawkins says that science is still working on the problem of how something came to be from nothing. Of course, I imagine that you're much brighter than Richard Dawkins (and I'm not kidding you about that, nor am I flattering you.)




Selam
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 02:26:08 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2011, 02:37:49 AM »

The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence.
You can't prove God exists.

Of course not, but I can explain the universe without a deity which renders the question moot.


Really? You can? I'd love to see you do that. Even Richard Dawkins says that science is still working on the problem of how something came to be from nothing. Of course, I imagine that you're much brighter than Richard Dawkins (and I'm not kidding you about that, nor am I flattering you.)

Selam

Interesting question, I'm not sure I accept the concept, or existence, of this 'nothing' you speak of. If you're merely referencing the Null Set, then I think I know where to go from there, but if you mean something else, you'll have to be more specific.

Of course, I find it interesting that you immediately jump onto Achronos' band wagon of trying to turn the initial question around to force me to prove a negative. As though anything one makes up is true if it cannot be proven false. By that logic, your god exists with the same likelihood that the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, and flying spaghetti monster exist.
 You are long here enough to know what the non-Orthodox posters are allowed to post in the Faith Issues and what they are not. 40 days of warning - MK.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2011, 03:16:32 AM »

The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence.
You can't prove God exists.

Of course not, but I can explain the universe without a deity which renders the question moot.
Why would the universe need an explanation?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,094


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2011, 03:17:36 AM »

The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence.
You can't prove God exists.

Of course not, but I can explain the universe without a deity which renders the question moot.


Really? You can? I'd love to see you do that. Even Richard Dawkins says that science is still working on the problem of how something came to be from nothing. Of course, I imagine that you're much brighter than Richard Dawkins (and I'm not kidding you about that, nor am I flattering you.)

Selam

Interesting question, I'm not sure I accept the concept, or existence, of this 'nothing' you speak of. If you're merely referencing the Null Set, then I think I know where to go from there, but if you mean something else, you'll have to be more specific.

Of course, I find it interesting that you immediately jump onto Achronos' band wagon of trying to turn the initial question around to force me to prove a negative. As though anything one makes up is true if it cannot be proven false. By that logic, your god exists with the same likelihood that the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, and flying spaghetti monster exist.


But the universe does exist. And if it exists, then there must be a reason that it exists. You claim to know the reason for its existence, i.e. you stated that you can "explain the universe without a deity." Perhaps you over-stated the matter? If so, fine. But that's quite a claim to make, that you can "explain the universe without a deity." In fact, objective atheistic scientists will not even make the claim that they can "explain the universe." After all, it's a vast universe, and we are only a minute, infinitesimal part of it.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 03:19:44 AM »

Well, I'm glad you all worked this out amongst yourselves. But I think you missed the point of the link referenced in the OP. The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence. Every time a 'miracle' takes place, it tends to be something just beyond what science can fully explain. No miracles like regrowing as a limb or the re-sequencing of already sequenced and verified DNA ever seem to happen, all so-called 'miracles' tend to happen beyond the frontiers of science. To an outside observer, it all just seems too convenient.

now this is not to an attempt to convince you or any other atheist , these are just few of my random thoughts when I think of miracles and God and such. I do understand it all seems too convenient when miracles happen beyond the frontiers of known science but what seems to be false does not necessarily must be false.now using a bible to argue for the existence of  God and His miracles is nearly impossible if not foolish thing to do. but for the sake of argument if we were to consider the bible as a historical reference to the alledged miracles, the said reactivating of DNA, regeneration of neurons and neural connections, muscular regeneration, the re-sequencing of cellular DNA that had a malfunctioning stop sequence thus have turned cancerous and malignant. hemophiliac DNA altered and altered instantly, oh yeah the most mind bogling one: raising the dead by an unknown method to us yet of regenerating and reversing the chaos of the already decaying flesh plus maintaining a fully functional human being and not a catatonic brain dead /vegetable, i hate this term/ person. as to all these and more yes science can not verify them but at the time even those none scientific minds were struggling with what they were seeing so we are not alone in doubting what we see and hear. but there were also those whose vested interest was to disprove the said miracles and John 9 especially is an interesting investigation of a born blind man whose eyes given sight and some even speculate his very eyes might have been created at that time , but whatever the case, the seeing of the born blind created a major chaos which lead to the inquisition and excommunication of the man by those who found his very existence an affront to their cause.then there is the Resurrection of the Christ that was believed so completely by the previous doubters and believes of surviving to see the next day, that these very same people will rush to their death with utter conviction and joy. I love science and I believe the natural world can be explained away by it as much as currently possible with out contradicting the possibility of a creator force behind it however it seems people have a different idea of what that Creator should do and should not do to prove himself to them. I might be one of them, but I also know that there is another possibility as unacceptable as it might be to my mind. the creator is quite content in what he has already displayed before  our eyes to see as being enough of proof of himself and sufficient also for accomplishing the process of what we are created to be and we simply do not agree on that point.  Smiley

Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2011, 03:26:22 AM »


Interesting question, I'm not sure I accept the concept, or existence, of this 'nothing' you speak of. If you're merely referencing the Null Set, then I think I know where to go from there, but if you mean something else, you'll have to be more specific.
But what is the set that contains the nothing in it. But even using the Null Set there is room for the spiritual.

Quote
Of course, I find it interesting that you immediately jump onto Achronos' band wagon of trying to turn the initial question around to force me to prove a negative. As though anything one makes up is true if it cannot be proven false. By that logic, your god exists with the same likelihood that the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, and flying spaghetti monster exist.
Never asked you to prove a negative and it wasn't an argument from ignorance either. I also did not suggest that making up an unprovable god is true.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,300


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2011, 08:29:53 AM »

DNA
...is the miracle itself.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Opus118
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,425



« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2011, 09:56:13 AM »


agree to a large extent

Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,121



« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2011, 11:14:07 AM »

Coming from a rather weird form of atheism, my own conversion came mostly from the experience that belief in God made me a happier person.  I know, that sounds strange, but that was the beginning.

I saw that people who wanted to get off of drugs and alcohol ended up in 12-step programs that healed them.  I met prisoners who were 'bad dudes' who converted and left their violent ways.  I also saw that 'whole' could be far more miserable than amputees.

My opinion is that it is overly simplistic to think that human beings could be happy in a perfect world.  I have seen great wealth and power bring misery.  I have also seen most of those who have sought for a spiritual connection to God somehow find happiness amidst asceticism, suffering and persecution.

All that I can say for sure is that a humble faith in Christ leads to inner peace, and that is what I am searching for.  You can say I am deluded, but I am a 'happy deluded' if you must think me deceived.  I'm also far less harmful than I once was.  When I did not believe, out of my fears of having to fend for myself I was far more reckless about the safety of others than I am now.

Sure, their are people who abuse religion.  There are also people who abuse atheism (c.f. 20th century European history).  It is within part of our present nature to use whatever cloak we can find to hide our embarrassing habits and temptations.

The introduction of atheism to the world stage, beginning with the French Revolution, is relatively new.  Societies world-wide have changed, but they were changing before then, too.  There is a trajectory that atheism does not have seemd to affect: people are still miserable and addicted, with or without atheism or religion.  That's because, in the end, the existence of either has no effect on the person until he decides to accept their premise.

Since the premise of atheism is that humans are as they are, and their is no help outside of human agency, I have so say that this is not my experience.  In my own case, self-will has not worked so well.  Perhaps this is not your experience, and that's fine because my happiness does not depend on your belief, and neither should yours depend on my agreement with you.

Getting back to the topic, God doesn't need to heal amputees to make them happy.  In fact, if He just went around and fixed eveything that broke, we'd break much more and take it all for granted.  Part of what makes this life special is that it is delicate and temporary.  The amputee reminds himself and those around him that the dangers of this world are real. There are real costs to our actions and our lives, and we must cherish what we have been given.

Or, he can sit around and pity himself and be miserable... with or without God.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
sainthieu
Abstractor of the Quintessence
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 621


« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2011, 12:12:56 PM »

As an ex-atheist I can only suggest that you are asking a question that defies rational explanation. Nothing in faith reveals itself via rational explanation. In fact, reason is inimical to belief.

It is a fool's errand for a believer to "bite" when this particular bone is thrown. In accepting the terms of the argument, you've lost already.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2011, 01:17:35 PM »

atheist apologetics on oc.net...why?
Logged
McB
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Posts: 49


« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2011, 01:57:56 PM »

Coming from a rather weird form of atheism, my own conversion came mostly from the experience that belief in God made me a happier person.  I know, that sounds strange, but that was the beginning.

I saw that people who wanted to get off of drugs and alcohol ended up in 12-step programs that healed them.  I met prisoners who were 'bad dudes' who converted and left their violent ways.  I also saw that 'whole' could be far more miserable than amputees.

My opinion is that it is overly simplistic to think that human beings could be happy in a perfect world.  I have seen great wealth and power bring misery.  I have also seen most of those who have sought for a spiritual connection to God somehow find happiness amidst asceticism, suffering and persecution.

All that I can say for sure is that a humble faith in Christ leads to inner peace, and that is what I am searching for.  You can say I am deluded, but I am a 'happy deluded' if you must think me deceived.  I'm also far less harmful than I once was.  When I did not believe, out of my fears of having to fend for myself I was far more reckless about the safety of others than I am now.

Sure, their are people who abuse religion.  There are also people who abuse atheism (c.f. 20th century European history).  It is within part of our present nature to use whatever cloak we can find to hide our embarrassing habits and temptations.

The introduction of atheism to the world stage, beginning with the French Revolution, is relatively new.  Societies world-wide have changed, but they were changing before then, too.  There is a trajectory that atheism does not have seemd to affect: people are still miserable and addicted, with or without atheism or religion.  That's because, in the end, the existence of either has no effect on the person until he decides to accept their premise.

Since the premise of atheism is that humans are as they are, and their is no help outside of human agency, I have so say that this is not my experience.  In my own case, self-will has not worked so well.  Perhaps this is not your experience, and that's fine because my happiness does not depend on your belief, and neither should yours depend on my agreement with you.

Getting back to the topic, God doesn't need to heal amputees to make them happy.  In fact, if He just went around and fixed eveything that broke, we'd break much more and take it all for granted.  Part of what makes this life special is that it is delicate and temporary.  The amputee reminds himself and those around him that the dangers of this world are real. There are real costs to our actions and our lives, and we must cherish what we have been given.

Or, he can sit around and pity himself and be miserable... with or without God.


Just wanted to say that I like this response a lot, and it accords with my own prior experience of atheism.
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2011, 02:59:32 PM »

Maybe God does not like to be self-evident.. Perhaps he likes people to find him through faith.. Or perhaps he doesn`t care.. Perhaps he is a distant God that established the laws of nature and let things happen after them.. Perhaps we only get at the enclosure with Him when we die ... Or perhaps He doesn`t even exist... Perhaps he is an imaginary friend for grown-ups.



 You were told what you are allowed to post in the Faith Issues as a non-Orthodox poster. 40 days of moderation - MK.
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2011, 03:02:11 PM »

I know that this is really lousy reasoning, but if a mountain disappeared in Japan and appeared in Kentucky, or if limbs appeared on amputees everywhere, or whole countries spontaneously combusted in seconds, I feel like it would be a lot easier to believe in God.

Well, either Him or aliens. Still, the playing field is decreased.

That's what I think, anyway.

Really? Christ raised a man from death. And the reaction of more than a few people was then to plan to kill Him.

That is the interesting tie between that sign and the parable of Lazarus.

Even if we take your argument, then the question would be what god?

Faith that relies on signs is one that can't last without nourishment. Many people claim to see "miracles" all the time.

We believe we consume the Living Body and Blood of Christ the Son of the One God and look at how we all behave or at least I do.

How many of us take that mystery to our condemnation? I don't think flashy miracles would do much in the long run.

People die of x and we swear we will change our lives. And week later (hours) back to business as normal.

Faith that leads to change which leads to greater faith is truly a wonder.

Faith that expects change to happen on our terms or wait to be convinced is mere paganism. Our God is often a God that is absent. There are no promises. Crosses till the end. The funny thing is whether we take up our Crosses or not, they are still there. If we are honest, or if I am, I just want them taken away.

I don't want to suffer with my God who suffered for me. I want health, wealth, and happiness. I keep trying to make the Gospels tell me that is the good news, but I just can't find it.

So if your arm is restored, it is so you can use it to glorify God by serving others and suffering with them. Not to work on your back hand at the tennis club.

Tennis ain't my game, but you get my point I think.

Again, the general you here, just playing off your post.





why would wanting health,wealth and happiness be wrong?why would being happy be wrong?if that is so at what good does happiness exist?
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,728


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2011, 11:17:46 PM »

Enjoying what you've earned is one thing. Letting it become an excessive craving, though, can be problematic. Think about the people who gamble too much. They need help.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,254

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2011, 10:08:01 AM »

I always liked Frederick Buechner's perspective:

If God really exists, why in heaven’s name does God not prove that he exists instead of leaving us here in our terrible uncertainty?  Why does he not show his face so that at last a despairing world can have hope?  At one time or another, everyone asks such a question.  In some objectifiably verifiable and convincing way, we want God himself to demonstrate his own existence.  Deep in our hearts, I suspect that this is what all of us want, unbelievers no less than believers.  And I have wondered sometimes what would happen if God were to do just that.  What would happen if God did set about demonstrating his existence in some dramatic and irrefutable way?

Suppose, for instance, that God were to take the great, dim river of the Milky Way as we see it from down here flowing across the night sky and were to brighten it up a little and then rearrange it so that all of a sudden one night the world would step outside and look up at the heavens and see not the usual haphazard scattering of stars but, written out in letters lightyears tall, the sentece I REALLY EXIST or GOD IS.  If I were going to try to write a story or a play about such an event, I would start, of course, with the first night that this great theological headline appeared there in the stars, with suns and moons to dot the I’s and the tails of comets to cross the t’s.  And I would try to show some of the ways I can imagine people might respond to it.  I would show some of them sinking to their knees, not because they are especially religious people but just because it might seem somehow the only natural thing to do under the circumstances.  They would perhaps do it without even thinking about it, just crumpling down on their knees there in the tall grass out behind the garage.  Some of them I would show running back into their houses in terror - guilty ones in terror of it - just GOD IS written up there in the fire of the stars - and maybe in everyone some degree of terror at just the sheer awesome vastness of the Unknown suddenly making itself known.

Several years would go by and God’s proof of himself would still be blazing away every night for all to read.  In order to convince people that the message was not just some million-to-one freak of nature, I would be tempted to have God keep on rewriting it in different languages, sometimes accompanying it with bursts of pure color or with music so celestial that finally the last hardened skeptic would be convinced that God must indeed exist after all.  Then the way that I would have it end might be this.  I would have a child look up at the sky some night, just a plain, garden-variety child with perhaps a wad of bubble gum in his cheek.  If this were to be a movie, I would have a close-up here of just the child’s eyes with the stars reflected in them, and I would have him spell out the message syllable by syllable.  Let us say that this night it happens to be in French - J’existe quand-meme. C’est moi, le bon Dieu.  And deep in the heavens there would be the usual strains of sublime music.  And then I would have the child turn to his father, or maybe, with the crazy courage of childhood, I would have him turn to God himself, and the words that I would have him speak would be words to make the angels gasp.  “So what if God exists?” he would say.  “What difference does that make?”  And in the twinkling of an eye the message would fade away for good and the celestial music would be heard no more, or maybe they would continue for centuries to come, but it would no longer make any difference.

We all want to be certain, we all want proof, but the kind of proof we tend to want - scientifically or philosophically demonstrable proof that would silence all doubts once and for all - would not in the long run, I think, answer the fearful depths of our need at all.  For what we need to know, of course, is not just that God exists, not just that beyond the steely brightness of the stars there is a cosmic intelligence of some kind that keeps the whole show going, but that there is a God right here in the thick of our day-by-day lives who may not be writing messages about himself in the stars but who in one way or another is trying to get messages through our blindness as we move around down here knee-deep in the fragrant muck and misery and marvel of the world.  It is not objective proof of God’s existence that we want but, whether we use religious language for it or not, the experience of God’s presence.  That is the miracle we are really after.  And that is also, I think, the miracle that we really get.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 10:10:11 AM by Sleeper » Logged
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,300


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2011, 10:17:06 AM »

If God hasn't met your expectations, then lower your expectations.  Grin
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2011, 11:07:07 AM »

I know that this is really lousy reasoning, but if a mountain disappeared in Japan and appeared in Kentucky, or if limbs appeared on amputees everywhere, or whole countries spontaneously combusted in seconds, I feel like it would be a lot easier to believe in God.

Well, either Him or aliens. Still, the playing field is decreased.

That's what I think, anyway.

Really? Christ raised a man from death. And the reaction of more than a few people was then to plan to kill Him.

That is the interesting tie between that sign and the parable of Lazarus.

Even if we take your argument, then the question would be what god?

Faith that relies on signs is one that can't last without nourishment. Many people claim to see "miracles" all the time.

We believe we consume the Living Body and Blood of Christ the Son of the One God and look at how we all behave or at least I do.

How many of us take that mystery to our condemnation? I don't think flashy miracles would do much in the long run.

People die of x and we swear we will change our lives. And week later (hours) back to business as normal.

Faith that leads to change which leads to greater faith is truly a wonder.

Faith that expects change to happen on our terms or wait to be convinced is mere paganism. Our God is often a God that is absent. There are no promises. Crosses till the end. The funny thing is whether we take up our Crosses or not, they are still there. If we are honest, or if I am, I just want them taken away.

I don't want to suffer with my God who suffered for me. I want health, wealth, and happiness. I keep trying to make the Gospels tell me that is the good news, but I just can't find it.

So if your arm is restored, it is so you can use it to glorify God by serving others and suffering with them. Not to work on your back hand at the tennis club.

Tennis ain't my game, but you get my point I think.

Again, the general you here, just playing off your post.





why would wanting health,wealth and happiness be wrong?why would being happy be wrong?if that is so at what good does happiness exist?

It ain't wrong. Just ain't Christian.

Well, let's say it ain't the Gospel. Actually, it is VERY Christian, unfortunately.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2011, 11:09:41 AM »

atheist apologetics on oc.net...why?

Why not? You can't stand up to what GiC's OP? Frankly it is weak sauce for GiC and should not even give a Christian a bother.

He is right.

Now some of the responses from the other posters are a bit embarrassing.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 11:09:52 AM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2011, 11:20:20 AM »

If God hasn't met your expectations, then lower your expectations.  Grin

I don`t agree, God is perfect, splendid, beautifull, excellent, great, magnific.
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,300


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2011, 11:21:10 AM »

If God hasn't met your expectations, then lower your expectations.  Grin

I don`t agree, God is perfect, splendid, beautifull, excellent, great, magnific.
Sure, God is all those things. Are your expectations of God equally 'perfect'? Wink
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2011, 12:10:42 PM »

If God hasn't met your expectations, then lower your expectations.  Grin

I don`t agree, God is perfect, splendid, beautifull, excellent, great, magnific.
Sure, God is all those things. Are your expectations of God equally 'perfect'? Wink

I expect God to be beyond my expectations.
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2011, 12:20:19 PM »

If God hasn't met your expectations, then lower your expectations.  Grin

I don`t agree, God is perfect, splendid, beautifull, excellent, great, magnific.
Sure, God is all those things. Are your expectations of God equally 'perfect'? Wink

I expect God to be beyond my expectations.

Dude, you should be so unshaned of yourself. //:=)
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
mark thomas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox
Jurisdiction: antioch
Posts: 151



« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2011, 12:25:59 PM »

I know my answer to "why can't you find God under a microscope (or with a telescope, for that matter)" will be viewed as overly simplistic, but...

Scripture repeatedly demands faith from us. Apparently, this is very important to God (I understand this to do with the relationship between free will and love).

If God exists outside of time and is omniscient as the Church teaches, then He is in a position to foresee and circumvent our every attempt to prove His existence. He gets to erase His fingerprints, so to speak.  Non-proof becomes my proof. For once, I get to join the atheists in this.

For myself, I wish He would re-arrange the stars for once, but hey; He gets to make the rules...
Logged

"Who touches, is also touched"
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2011, 12:37:10 PM »

I know my answer to "why can't you find God under a microscope (or with a telescope, for that matter)" will be viewed as overly simplistic, but...

Scripture repeatedly demands faith from us. Apparently, this is very important to God (I understand this to do with the relationship between free will and love).

If God exists outside of time and is omniscient as the Church teaches, then He is in a position to foresee and circumvent our every attempt to prove His existence. He gets to erase His fingerprints, so to speak.  Non-proof becomes my proof. For once, I get to join the atheists in this.

For myself, I wish He would re-arrange the stars for once, but hey; He gets to make the rules...

People could easily find an explanation for arrange stars.. it could be attributed to extraterestrial beings/life and not necessary to God.As someone said what we really want is not seing the presence of God but feel it... There are many people who experience supernatural phenomenas but don`t attribute it to God.The real miracle is that within.A true miracle is the one that comes for a reason.A miracle without a message is not a true miracle.
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2011, 12:47:49 PM »

Well, I'm glad you all worked this out amongst yourselves. But I think you missed the point of the link referenced in the OP. The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence. Every time a 'miracle' takes place, it tends to be something just beyond what science can fully explain. No miracles like regrowing as a limb or the re-sequencing of already sequenced and verified DNA ever seem to happen, all so-called 'miracles' tend to happen beyond the frontiers of science. To an outside observer, it all just seems too convenient.

That's not true at all.. People have miraculous cures all the time that baffle Doctors.

There was just an event when a young man who was blind immediately  regained his sight as he venerated the Myrah Streaming Iveron Icon
( Hawaii ).

How do icons stream oil? I would be happy to give you details of what Ive seen. Icons stream fragrant Oil.. People get healed. Go figure

 
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »

atheist apologetics on oc.net...why?

Why not? You can't stand up to what GiC's OP? Frankly it is weak sauce for GiC and should not even give a Christian a bother.

He is right.

Now some of the responses from the other posters are a bit embarrassing.

Actually, more to the point with GiC, we long timers remember that he is an apostate who was graduated from Holy Cross with a Masters of Theology degree. That particular degree, as opposed to a M.Div. shows to some extent that he came to the Church originally from an intellectual vantage, though I could be wrong. We humor and or tolerate him to some extent but STILL consider him a brother - just off the Way.
He. along with another steady member here who often wavers in and out of belief, gives us an example of the dangers of approaching matters of faith from a pure intellect alone. While many begin their journey from that point of entry, most move on.
I've no problem reading these debates, but probably do not get involved directly as he has "no standing" to argue against our FAITH in support of his own FAITH.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2011, 01:20:06 PM »

atheist apologetics on oc.net...why?

Why not? You can't stand up to what GiC's OP? Frankly it is weak sauce for GiC and should not even give a Christian a bother.

He is right.

Now some of the responses from the other posters are a bit embarrassing.

Actually, more to the point with GiC, we long timers remember that he is an apostate who was graduated from Holy Cross with a Masters of Theology degree. That particular degree, as opposed to a M.Div. shows to some extent that he came to the Church originally from an intellectual vantage, though I could be wrong. We humor and or tolerate him to some extent but STILL consider him a brother - just off the Way.
He. along with another steady member here who often wavers in and out of belief, gives us an example of the dangers of approaching matters of faith from a pure intellect alone. While many begin their journey from that point of entry, most move on.
I've no problem reading these debates, but probably do not get involved directly as he has "no standing" to argue against our FAITH in support of his own FAITH.

And again he is correct here in his OP. There is no arguing with it.

And he a great guy all around.

We should consider every human a "brother". And I would like to think we ought to do more than "humor" or "tolerate" others, even the apostates. Then again maybe my memory ain't working correctly and Christ said some something like: "A new commandment I give to you. To tolerate one another as I have tolerated you."

And your psychological speculation about his break from the Church and the conditions under which it happened I find a bit insulting, speculating about such matters in public seems a best patronizing at worst dehumanizing. Who knows, maybe you are ghost writing his memoirs and are privy to such info and he just that simplistic. In that case, I stand corrected. But I doubt GiC finds any insult, he rolls with the internetz. And GiC is capable of speaking for himself.

I don't know him well or at least not as well I wish, but I do know he has never been nothing but gracious and kind to me. And has provided much needed laugh therapy at times.



Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2011, 01:29:01 PM »

Coming from a rather weird form of atheism, my own conversion came mostly from the experience that belief in God made me a happier person.  I know, that sounds strange, but that was the beginning.

I saw that people who wanted to get off of drugs and alcohol ended up in 12-step programs that healed them.  I met prisoners who were 'bad dudes' who converted and left their violent ways.  I also saw that 'whole' could be far more miserable than amputees.

My opinion is that it is overly simplistic to think that human beings could be happy in a perfect world.  I have seen great wealth and power bring misery.  I have also seen most of those who have sought for a spiritual connection to God somehow find happiness amidst asceticism, suffering and persecution.

All that I can say for sure is that a humble faith in Christ leads to inner peace, and that is what I am searching for.  You can say I am deluded, but I am a 'happy deluded' if you must think me deceived.  I'm also far less harmful than I once was.  When I did not believe, out of my fears of having to fend for myself I was far more reckless about the safety of others than I am now.

Sure, their are people who abuse religion.  There are also people who abuse atheism (c.f. 20th century European history).  It is within part of our present nature to use whatever cloak we can find to hide our embarrassing habits and temptations.

The introduction of atheism to the world stage, beginning with the French Revolution, is relatively new.  Societies world-wide have changed, but they were changing before then, too.  There is a trajectory that atheism does not have seemd to affect: people are still miserable and addicted, with or without atheism or religion.  That's because, in the end, the existence of either has no effect on the person until he decides to accept their premise.

Since the premise of atheism is that humans are as they are, and their is no help outside of human agency, I have so say that this is not my experience.  In my own case, self-will has not worked so well.  Perhaps this is not your experience, and that's fine because my happiness does not depend on your belief, and neither should yours depend on my agreement with you.

Getting back to the topic, God doesn't need to heal amputees to make them happy.  In fact, if He just went around and fixed eveything that broke, we'd break much more and take it all for granted.  Part of what makes this life special is that it is delicate and temporary.  The amputee reminds himself and those around him that the dangers of this world are real. There are real costs to our actions and our lives, and we must cherish what we have been given.

Or, he can sit around and pity himself and be miserable... with or without God.


Beautiful! Father
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2011, 01:53:26 PM »

atheist apologetics on oc.net...why?

Why not? You can't stand up to what GiC's OP? Frankly it is weak sauce for GiC and should not even give a Christian a bother.

He is right.

Now some of the responses from the other posters are a bit embarrassing.

Actually, more to the point with GiC, we long timers remember that he is an apostate who was graduated from Holy Cross with a Masters of Theology degree. That particular degree, as opposed to a M.Div. shows to some extent that he came to the Church originally from an intellectual vantage, though I could be wrong. We humor and or tolerate him to some extent but STILL consider him a brother - just off the Way.
He. along with another steady member here who often wavers in and out of belief, gives us an example of the dangers of approaching matters of faith from a pure intellect alone. While many begin their journey from that point of entry, most move on.
I've no problem reading these debates, but probably do not get involved directly as he has "no standing" to argue against our FAITH in support of his own FAITH.

And again he is correct here in his OP. There is no arguing with it.

And he a great guy all around.

We should consider every human a "brother". And I would like to think we ought to do more than "humor" or "tolerate" others, even the apostates. Then again maybe my memory ain't working correctly and Christ said some something like: "A new commandment I give to you. To tolerate one another as I have tolerated you."

And your psychological speculation about his break from the Church and the conditions under which it happened I find a bit insulting, speculating about such matters in public seems a best patronizing at worst dehumanizing. Who knows, maybe you are ghost writing his memoirs and are privy to such info and he just that simplistic. In that case, I stand corrected. But I doubt GiC finds any insult, he rolls with the internetz. And GiC is capable of speaking for himself.

I don't know him well or at least not as well I wish, but I do know he has never been nothing but gracious and kind to me. And has provided much needed laugh therapy at times.





Chuckle, when I logged back in my screen did not show in its view who was so responding but I guessed it was you - same ilk as GiC. Glad you feel free to lecture me on what I "should" do. I'll leave you to your own psychological musings - judgmental as they themselves are  Roll Eyes.  GiC and I go "way back" and agree on most everything in secular economic and geo-political matters; we just differ as to faith, each placing ours differently. If he did not want responses such as mine he need not have begun the topic, or stayed here outright. Neither he nor I will lose any sleep over this.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2011, 03:34:39 PM »

atheist apologetics on oc.net...why?

Why not? You can't stand up to what GiC's OP? Frankly it is weak sauce for GiC and should not even give a Christian a bother.

He is right.

Now some of the responses from the other posters are a bit embarrassing.

Actually, more to the point with GiC, we long timers remember that he is an apostate who was graduated from Holy Cross with a Masters of Theology degree. That particular degree, as opposed to a M.Div. shows to some extent that he came to the Church originally from an intellectual vantage, though I could be wrong. We humor and or tolerate him to some extent but STILL consider him a brother - just off the Way.
He. along with another steady member here who often wavers in and out of belief, gives us an example of the dangers of approaching matters of faith from a pure intellect alone. While many begin their journey from that point of entry, most move on.
I've no problem reading these debates, but probably do not get involved directly as he has "no standing" to argue against our FAITH in support of his own FAITH.

And again he is correct here in his OP. There is no arguing with it.

And he a great guy all around.

We should consider every human a "brother". And I would like to think we ought to do more than "humor" or "tolerate" others, even the apostates. Then again maybe my memory ain't working correctly and Christ said some something like: "A new commandment I give to you. To tolerate one another as I have tolerated you."

And your psychological speculation about his break from the Church and the conditions under which it happened I find a bit insulting, speculating about such matters in public seems a best patronizing at worst dehumanizing. Who knows, maybe you are ghost writing his memoirs and are privy to such info and he just that simplistic. In that case, I stand corrected. But I doubt GiC finds any insult, he rolls with the internetz. And GiC is capable of speaking for himself.

I don't know him well or at least not as well I wish, but I do know he has never been nothing but gracious and kind to me. And has provided much needed laugh therapy at times.





Chuckle, when I logged back in my screen did not show in its view who was so responding but I guessed it was you - same ilk as GiC. Glad you feel free to lecture me on what I "should" do. I'll leave you to your own psychological musings - judgmental as they themselves are  Roll Eyes.  GiC and I go "way back" and agree on most everything in secular economic and geo-political matters; we just differ as to faith, each placing ours differently. If he did not want responses such as mine he need not have begun the topic, or stayed here outright. Neither he nor I will lose any sleep over this.

Glad to see you have mastered the kindergarten manner of argument: So are you!

Didn't say he would lose any sleep over it.

And I am always glad to properly correct someone.

You're welcome.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2011, 03:52:23 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus CHrist!

Well, I'm glad you all worked this out amongst yourselves. But I think you missed the point of the link referenced in the OP. The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence. Every time a 'miracle' takes place, it tends to be something just beyond what science can fully explain. No miracles like regrowing as a limb or the re-sequencing of already sequenced and verified DNA ever seem to happen, all so-called 'miracles' tend to happen beyond the frontiers of science. To an outside observer, it all just seems too convenient.

That is a subjective opinion.  The Apostles and the Prophets have affirmed that God reveals Himself through the Mystery of Creation.  For we Christians, everything we learn from Biology or Mechanics are only more glorification to the Almighty.  We are less concerned with miracles or divine intervention so much as communion and relationship.  We learn to know God like we know each other, by a relationship in connection with each others actions.  God's actions are to have created and to perpetually sustain every aspect and detail of our realitieis each succeeding nano-second of existence.  So whenever we know our reality at any level, we are expanding our experience with God who creates our respective realities.  Further, Christianity is a Mystery religion where Communion with God is obtainable in a spiritual way. We can't exactly verify this to outsiders, and yet there are literally over a BILLION people who profess Faith and an experience of God in the Catholic Church alone, how is that not evidence? Just because a few bitter scientists are not feeling it, doesn't mean they should be so quickly dismissive, and the reality is most scientists are not vitriolic atheists because they reasonably agree that if science can not make a verifiable conclusion regarding God, then science should make any conclusions about whether or not God does or does not exist.  Atheists who use science to support their claims are not really very scientific then are they, in making drastic assumptions which they admittedly can never themselves verify in any way?

The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence.
You can't prove God exists.

Of course not, but I can explain the universe without a deity which renders the question moot.

No you can't, to this day there is not solid explanations for the several gaping holes in the current theories, especially in regards to dark energy. There are delightfully eloquent and indeed believable theories and assumptions, but all of these are not unified to this day, and the several layers of understanding to not merge mutually, you call that an explanation? Sounds like a confused one to me Wink

 GiC, what is honestly objective or verifiable? Every human measurement is subjective, so you measure a distance to be 3280 feet, but somebody else calls that a kilometer.  The deep revelations about string theory, black holes, and dark matter are all dependent upon suppositions, elaborate mathematics, and astonishing technology, but really, how much of that is objective? Its all subjective to the base assumptions, to the math, to the technology.  Further, its all really worthless unless, as Einstein himself liked to say, "It should be possible to explain the laws of physics to a barmaid."  Barmaids aren't often well versed in complex equations or satellite telescopes..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 04:09:45 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2011, 07:31:48 PM »



atheist apologetics on oc.net...why?

Why not? You can't stand up to what GiC's OP? Frankly it is weak sauce for GiC and should not even give a Christian a bother.

He is right.

Now some of the responses from the other posters are a bit embarrassing.

Actually, more to the point with GiC, we long timers remember that he is an apostate who was graduated from Holy Cross with a Masters of Theology degree. That particular degree, as opposed to a M.Div. shows to some extent that he came to the Church originally from an intellectual vantage, though I could be wrong. We humor and or tolerate him to some extent but STILL consider him a brother - just off the Way.
He. along with another steady member here who often wavers in and out of belief, gives us an example of the dangers of approaching matters of faith from a pure intellect alone. While many begin their journey from that point of entry, most move on.
I've no problem reading these debates, but probably do not get involved directly as he has "no standing" to argue against our FAITH in support of his own FAITH.

And again he is correct here in his OP. There is no arguing with it.

And he a great guy all around.

We should consider every human a "brother". And I would like to think we ought to do more than "humor" or "tolerate" others, even the apostates. Then again maybe my memory ain't working correctly and Christ said some something like: "A new commandment I give to you. To tolerate one another as I have tolerated you."

And your psychological speculation about his break from the Church and the conditions under which it happened I find a bit insulting, speculating about such matters in public seems a best patronizing at worst dehumanizing. Who knows, maybe you are ghost writing his memoirs and are privy to such info and he just that simplistic. In that case, I stand corrected. But I doubt GiC finds any insult, he rolls with the internetz. And GiC is capable of speaking for himself.

I don't know him well or at least not as well I wish, but I do know he has never been nothing but gracious and kind to me. And has provided much needed laugh therapy at times.





Chuckle, when I logged back in my screen did not show in its view who was so responding but I guessed it was you - same ilk as GiC. Glad you feel free to lecture me on what I "should" do. I'll leave you to your own psychological musings - judgmental as they themselves are  Roll Eyes.  GiC and I go "way back" and agree on most everything in secular economic and geo-political matters; we just differ as to faith, each placing ours differently. If he did not want responses such as mine he need not have begun the topic, or stayed here outright. Neither he nor I will lose any sleep over this.

Glad to see you have mastered the kindergarten manner of argument: So are you!

Didn't say he would lose any sleep over it.

And I am always glad to properly correct someone.

You're welcome.

Who thanked you? Certainly not I.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2011, 12:10:32 AM »

I always liked Frederick Buechner's perspective:
-snip-
Shortened this for the sake of scrolling through this again, but truly a wonderful perspective.

Who needs an objective proof of God's existence when living out one's faith hardens it like a rock? I dunno, as soon as I stopped living life as a pseudo-intellectual philosopher and instead started to live as a Christian, my faith became that much more real, immediate and true to me. Of course the intellectual side needs to be fed, which I think Christianity does wonderfully, but I feel there is a limit to that sort of intellectual assent. Just taking up your cross daily, like orthonorm said, kind of answers all the questions I have, but it's the accepting of the cross which remains difficult for me.

Anyway enough of this babbling, God doesn't need to give us any proof of his existence. If He did, I'm sure it wouldn't satiate even the most hardened atheist, well maybe if you put God on trial. I think we may even demand more of God and at the same time being aware of God's existence with having such a proof may actually put a hindrance to us with our relationship with him.

BTW I personally have a hard time distinguishing miracle from a non-miracle.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,133


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2011, 01:31:32 AM »

Well, I'm glad you all worked this out amongst yourselves. But I think you missed the point of the link referenced in the OP. The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence. Every time a 'miracle' takes place, it tends to be something just beyond what science can fully explain. No miracles like regrowing as a limb or the re-sequencing of already sequenced and verified DNA ever seem to happen, all so-called 'miracles' tend to happen beyond the frontiers of science. To an outside observer, it all just seems too convenient.

Never do people consider that an amputee could be fine in God's eyes.  We assume that an amputee is in need of healing.   There is a bagger at my local Kroger store who has downs syndrome.   As I sit here typing I'm reflecting back all through my life on every person I know, and I'll tell you that this guy is literally the happiest, most positive, and delightful person I've ever been around.  He says "Hi" with a great big smile, sacks groceries with enthusiasm, pauses briefly at the snacks (LOL!!), and is very happy to help you load your car and thanks me at least 10 times, shakes my hand, and tells me what he is saving for when I give him a $1 tip. 

Exodus 4:11 - The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

I look around and everybody pities him, but their faces are sad, stress lines on their cheeks, and worn out from their stress filled workday.  This individual is smiling and happy the entire time, delighted in his job, and happy about life.

Do you believe God should heal him?

We don't always understand disabilities, but sometimes if we reflect on ourselves, perhaps we are in need of greater healing more so than those that we pity.

---

As for Science, it does not often credit itself with "unexplainable" things.   It will ignore testimony of countless people who have witnessed angels and miracles through millenia.  This includes massive amounts of miracles that happen within the Eastern Orthodox church, a few of which I have personally witnessed.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2011, 06:48:46 PM »

When a Scientist took oil from the Myrah streaming Iveron Icon and analyzed it in his lab in had several properties that were chemically impossible that he could not explain and several ingredients so rare they are nearly impossible to gather and at least one ingredient that he absolutely could not identify..

On this last visit a blind boy immediately regained his sight while venerating the  Icon. There was a Chruch full of witnesses who know the boy very well and know of his disability.

Go figure
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,149


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2011, 11:18:57 AM »

The real issue is that this 'god' seems to avoid leaving any objective and verifiable proof of his or her existence.
You can't prove God exists.

Of course not, but I can explain the universe without a deity which renders the question moot.


Really? You can? I'd love to see you do that. Even Richard Dawkins says that science is still working on the problem of how something came to be from nothing. Of course, I imagine that you're much brighter than Richard Dawkins (and I'm not kidding you about that, nor am I flattering you.)

Selam

Interesting question, I'm not sure I accept the concept, or existence, of this 'nothing' you speak of. If you're merely referencing the Null Set, then I think I know where to go from there, but if you mean something else, you'll have to be more specific.

Of course, I find it interesting that you immediately jump onto Achronos' band wagon of trying to turn the initial question around to force me to prove a negative. As though anything one makes up is true if it cannot be proven false. By that logic, your god exists with the same likelihood that the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, and flying spaghetti monster exist.


But the universe does exist. And if it exists, then there must be a reason that it exists. You claim to know the reason for its existence, i.e. you stated that you can "explain the universe without a deity." Perhaps you over-stated the matter? If so, fine. But that's quite a claim to make, that you can "explain the universe without a deity." In fact, objective atheistic scientists will not even make the claim that they can "explain the universe." After all, it's a vast universe, and we are only a minute, infinitesimal part of it.


Selam

Glad to see you finally edging toward the dark (Thomist) side.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,149


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2011, 11:18:58 AM »

In answer to the original question, read C.S. Lewis work, "The Problem of Pain".
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,149


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2011, 11:18:58 AM »

There is a case of an withered optic nerve being immediately healed in Lourdes France.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2011, 01:54:08 PM »

I know that this is really lousy reasoning, but if a mountain disappeared in Japan and appeared in Kentucky, or if limbs appeared on amputees everywhere, or whole countries spontaneously combusted in seconds, I feel like it would be a lot easier to believe in God.

Well, either Him or aliens. Still, the playing field is decreased.

That's what I think, anyway.

Really? Christ raised a man from death. And the reaction of more than a few people was then to plan to kill Him.

That is the interesting tie between that sign and the parable of Lazarus.

Even if we take your argument, then the question would be what god?

Faith that relies on signs is one that can't last without nourishment. Many people claim to see "miracles" all the time.

We believe we consume the Living Body and Blood of Christ the Son of the One God and look at how we all behave or at least I do.

How many of us take that mystery to our condemnation? I don't think flashy miracles would do much in the long run.

People die of x and we swear we will change our lives. And week later (hours) back to business as normal.

Faith that leads to change which leads to greater faith is truly a wonder.

Faith that expects change to happen on our terms or wait to be convinced is mere paganism. Our God is often a God that is absent. There are no promises. Crosses till the end. The funny thing is whether we take up our Crosses or not, they are still there. If we are honest, or if I am, I just want them taken away.

I don't want to suffer with my God who suffered for me. I want health, wealth, and happiness. I keep trying to make the Gospels tell me that is the good news, but I just can't find it.

So if your arm is restored, it is so you can use it to glorify God by serving others and suffering with them. Not to work on your back hand at the tennis club.

Tennis ain't my game, but you get my point I think.

Again, the general you here, just playing off your post.





why would wanting health,wealth and happiness be wrong?why would being happy be wrong?if that is so at what good does happiness exist?

It ain't wrong. Just ain't Christian.

Well, let's say it ain't the Gospel. Actually, it is VERY Christian, unfortunately.



lol Cheesy ... I don`t get it . Tongue first you say that it ain`t wrong and it ain`t christian that you say that if very christian unfortunately... eighter is christian or not... eighter is not wrong or eighter is unfortunately.
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2011, 12:20:04 PM »

There is a case of an withered optic nerve being immediately healed in Lourdes France.

The advantage for GIC in the case I mentioned of the blind boy getting sight back immediately while venerating the Icon is that it just happened, it was in PA with lots of witnesses and we also have the testimony of Reader Nectarios the Icons care-taker. GIC can investigate this one more easily. He could go there even, look into it and maybe get his faith back. He could go to Hawaii and see the Icon and talk to reader Nectarios or wait till Feb. when he comes back.

I have been around this icon several times for long periods. I have seen a small grey cloud hover just above it and then smelled the strong fragrance of roses and seen with my own eyes drops of oil form and then trickle down. Most people , due to the crush of the crowds have not had the same opportunity to have as much time to see exactly what happens as it happens.

And there are dozens of other healings associated with this icon. A tumor the size of a baseball disappears the very next day when surgery was performed. All they found was a lump of fat, yet all the diagnostics clearly showed a tumor before that... For one example.

So this is not "Just beyond the reach of scientific investigation" ( paraphrase) as GIC thinks. Proof for the most hardened heart is available for the asking.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 12:20:55 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.188 seconds with 72 queries.