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Author Topic: Can we 'know' Jesus today?  (Read 1368 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jetavan
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« on: October 31, 2011, 09:16:55 AM »

An Episcopal priest comments on Marcus Borg:

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Last night at a gathering, Marcus Borg said (twice), “Jesus trumps the Bible.”

This is an extraordinarily irresponsible thing for a scholar and leader in the church to say. It can’t be said often enough: we have no access to knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible and its interpretation. There is no record of him outside the Bible until years after his death. The only way to understanding who he was is through the witness of the New Testament apostles. Therefore to suggest that he “trumps the Bible” is to suggest that we can cut loose from the Scriptures and construct a Jesus according to the perspectives of our own time. It has been shown over and over again that attempts to construct a “historical Jesus” or “real Jesus” apart from the faith-based witness of Scripture end in failure because such attempts are grounded, not in the text, but in the bias of those who undertake them.

Borg's liberal Protestantism notwithstanding, isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"? Doesn't that discount the activity of the Holy Spirit in the present day, to reveal Jesus to currently living Christians?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 09:17:19 AM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2011, 09:42:13 AM »

Yep, pretty much.

Also "Generous Orthodoxy"? That's a hoot, lady!
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2011, 10:01:14 AM »

Depends what you mean by "know".
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2011, 11:17:36 AM »

The Revelation to man is Christ; the Scriptures bear witness to that revelation.  Is it the only source for this witness?  Of course not, but without the Scriptures and Holy Tradition, the only Jesus you will "know" is one of your own making.
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2011, 12:33:13 PM »

The Revelation to man is Christ; the Scriptures bear witness to that revelation.  Is it the only source for this witness?  Of course not, but without the Scriptures and Holy Tradition, the only Jesus you will "know" is one of your own making.
I seem to remember a respected Orthodox saying that, if all the Scriptures were lost, they could be re-created by means of Tradition, or something to that effect.
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2011, 12:51:17 PM »

The Revelation to man is Christ; the Scriptures bear witness to that revelation.  Is it the only source for this witness?  Of course not, but without the Scriptures and Holy Tradition, the only Jesus you will "know" is one of your own making.
I seem to remember a respected Orthodox saying that, if all the Scriptures were lost, they could be re-created by means of Tradition, or something to that effect.

St. Silouan talked about that. If all of the texts of the Gospel were somehow lost, that the Fathers of today would be guided by the Holy Spirit in writing them again. (It's been a while since I read Elder Sophrony's biography of him, so I could be getting my thoughts mixed up, but he does say something along the lines of that.)
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2011, 01:02:25 PM »

The Revelation to man is Christ; the Scriptures bear witness to that revelation.  Is it the only source for this witness?  Of course not, but without the Scriptures and Holy Tradition, the only Jesus you will "know" is one of your own making.
I seem to remember a respected Orthodox saying that, if all the Scriptures were lost, they could be re-created by means of Tradition, or something to that effect.

I heard something along those lines where if the Liturgy were kept in all its forms, the scriptures could be completely reconstituted from that.
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2011, 01:38:45 PM »

isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  laugh
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2011, 01:52:00 PM »

isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  laugh

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2011, 04:36:49 PM »

isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  laugh

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

Apparently, the Pharisees were zombies.
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 08:45:43 PM »

isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?
We also have the history channel.  laugh
You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

I suppose a more serious answer would be the Church, the lives of the saints (departed and living), the sacraments, and especially the Eucharist. Not exactly documents that record history, but ways in which we know Christ.
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2011, 08:47:45 PM »

isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?
We also have the history channel.  laugh
You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?
Apparently, the Pharisees were zombies.

They're not the ones reported to have risen from the dead offering their flesh and blood as food.
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2011, 08:49:01 PM »

isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  laugh

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

You say that like it's a bad thing.  Wink Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2011, 12:45:09 PM »

isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  laugh

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

You say that like it's a bad thing.  Wink Cheesy

In truth, i have a soft spot for both Wink
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2011, 01:01:11 PM »

isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  laugh

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

You say that like it's a bad thing.  Wink Cheesy

In truth, i have a soft spot for both Wink

I'll just leave this here
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2011, 01:09:32 PM »

^ That's my favorite meme! LOL. Brilliant logic.  Grin

Can you believe, my husband BOUGHT one of Erich Von Daniken's books? He doesn't believe in it but he loves reading about this strange stuff anyway. Oy vey!
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2011, 01:22:40 PM »

^ That's my favorite meme! LOL. Brilliant logic.  Grin

Can you believe, my husband BOUGHT one of Erich Von Daniken's books? He doesn't believe in it but he loves reading about this strange stuff anyway. Oy vey!

It's my favorite as well, and I'm glad I could make some one laugh today.

Back to the OP I believe it is possible to know Jesus through extra Biblical sources; especially through the traditions of the Church. I feel like I have personally come to know Jesus better through the Church ever since I converted; I mean I still loved Jesus, I still sought after Him, but it was only when I left behind the Sola Scriptura attitude of my former Protestant self that I started to know Jesus in a way that I never before imagined.
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