Author Topic: Can we 'know' Jesus today?  (Read 1456 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« on: October 31, 2011, 09:16:55 AM »
An Episcopal priest comments on Marcus Borg:

Quote
Last night at a gathering, Marcus Borg said (twice), “Jesus trumps the Bible.”

This is an extraordinarily irresponsible thing for a scholar and leader in the church to say. It can’t be said often enough: we have no access to knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible and its interpretation. There is no record of him outside the Bible until years after his death. The only way to understanding who he was is through the witness of the New Testament apostles. Therefore to suggest that he “trumps the Bible” is to suggest that we can cut loose from the Scriptures and construct a Jesus according to the perspectives of our own time. It has been shown over and over again that attempts to construct a “historical Jesus” or “real Jesus” apart from the faith-based witness of Scripture end in failure because such attempts are grounded, not in the text, but in the bias of those who undertake them.

Borg's liberal Protestantism notwithstanding, isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"? Doesn't that discount the activity of the Holy Spirit in the present day, to reveal Jesus to currently living Christians?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 09:17:19 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2011, 09:42:13 AM »
Yep, pretty much.

Also "Generous Orthodoxy"? That's a hoot, lady!

Offline Aindriú

  • Faster! Funnier!
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,918
    • Blog
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2011, 10:01:14 AM »
Depends what you mean by "know".

I'm going to need this.

Offline scamandrius

  • Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,543
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek in exile
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2011, 11:17:36 AM »
The Revelation to man is Christ; the Scriptures bear witness to that revelation.  Is it the only source for this witness?  Of course not, but without the Scriptures and Holy Tradition, the only Jesus you will "know" is one of your own making.
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2011, 12:33:13 PM »
The Revelation to man is Christ; the Scriptures bear witness to that revelation.  Is it the only source for this witness?  Of course not, but without the Scriptures and Holy Tradition, the only Jesus you will "know" is one of your own making.
I seem to remember a respected Orthodox saying that, if all the Scriptures were lost, they could be re-created by means of Tradition, or something to that effect.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Manalive

  • Иоанн
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 289
  • It is later than we think.
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2011, 12:51:17 PM »
The Revelation to man is Christ; the Scriptures bear witness to that revelation.  Is it the only source for this witness?  Of course not, but without the Scriptures and Holy Tradition, the only Jesus you will "know" is one of your own making.
I seem to remember a respected Orthodox saying that, if all the Scriptures were lost, they could be re-created by means of Tradition, or something to that effect.

St. Silouan talked about that. If all of the texts of the Gospel were somehow lost, that the Fathers of today would be guided by the Holy Spirit in writing them again. (It's been a while since I read Elder Sophrony's biography of him, so I could be getting my thoughts mixed up, but he does say something along the lines of that.)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 01:03:40 PM by Manalive »
"Lay hold of the pathway... rugged and narrow as it is."- St. John Chrystostom

Offline scamandrius

  • Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,543
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek in exile
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2011, 01:02:25 PM »
The Revelation to man is Christ; the Scriptures bear witness to that revelation.  Is it the only source for this witness?  Of course not, but without the Scriptures and Holy Tradition, the only Jesus you will "know" is one of your own making.
I seem to remember a respected Orthodox saying that, if all the Scriptures were lost, they could be re-created by means of Tradition, or something to that effect.

I heard something along those lines where if the Liturgy were kept in all its forms, the scriptures could be completely reconstituted from that.
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2011, 01:38:45 PM »
isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  :laugh:
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2011, 01:52:00 PM »
isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  :laugh:

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2011, 04:36:49 PM »
isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  :laugh:

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

Apparently, the Pharisees were zombies.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 08:45:43 PM »
isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?
We also have the history channel.  :laugh:
You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

I suppose a more serious answer would be the Church, the lives of the saints (departed and living), the sacraments, and especially the Eucharist. Not exactly documents that record history, but ways in which we know Christ.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2011, 08:47:45 PM »
isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?
We also have the history channel.  :laugh:
You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?
Apparently, the Pharisees were zombies.

They're not the ones reported to have risen from the dead offering their flesh and blood as food.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,294
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2011, 08:49:01 PM »
isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  :laugh:

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

You say that like it's a bad thing.  ;) :D
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2011, 12:45:09 PM »
isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  :laugh:

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

You say that like it's a bad thing.  ;) :D

In truth, i have a soft spot for both ;)

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2011, 01:01:11 PM »
isn't it a bit 'false' to say that "we have no knowledge of Jesus except through the Bible"?

We also have the history channel.  :laugh:

You mean the alien and zombie invasion channel?

You say that like it's a bad thing.  ;) :D

In truth, i have a soft spot for both ;)

I'll just leave this here
N/OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline IsmiLiora

  • Chronic Exaggerator
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,434
  • Back by unpopular demand.
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2011, 01:09:32 PM »
^ That's my favorite meme! LOL. Brilliant logic.  ;D

Can you believe, my husband BOUGHT one of Erich Von Daniken's books? He doesn't believe in it but he loves reading about this strange stuff anyway. Oy vey!
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
Re: Can we 'know' Jesus today?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2011, 01:22:40 PM »
^ That's my favorite meme! LOL. Brilliant logic.  ;D

Can you believe, my husband BOUGHT one of Erich Von Daniken's books? He doesn't believe in it but he loves reading about this strange stuff anyway. Oy vey!

It's my favorite as well, and I'm glad I could make some one laugh today.

Back to the OP I believe it is possible to know Jesus through extra Biblical sources; especially through the traditions of the Church. I feel like I have personally come to know Jesus better through the Church ever since I converted; I mean I still loved Jesus, I still sought after Him, but it was only when I left behind the Sola Scriptura attitude of my former Protestant self that I started to know Jesus in a way that I never before imagined.
N/OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...