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Author Topic: Why is Hinduism wrong?  (Read 3956 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 29, 2011, 07:35:52 PM »

I should have said "Eastern religions" in the title but I didn't want to be super vague.  Smiley

I guess what I'm looking for are  Orthodox apologetics against Hinduism, writings about how the two relate, etc.

I believe in Christianity. But I don't feel like I really have any strong reason for rejecting Eastern pagan religions.
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2011, 07:40:12 PM »

Before I give an answer to this I'd like to add another question. Around what time did the theology of Hinduism change when the Gospel was being preached? IIRC they have some weird version of the Trinity which wasn't added to Hinduism until a few centuries after Christ rose from the dead.
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2011, 07:41:17 PM »

Most Church Fathers would tell you that they worship demons, and many modern clergy, like Father Lazarus Moore, agreed. There used to be an excellent interview of him on youtube talking about Hinduism, but it seem to have disappeared.

No different from the pagan religions of the Middle East in Biblical times.
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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2011, 07:54:49 PM »

While there might be some truth in all religions, as Christians we are supposed to be no longer groping in the dark - when the complete dark, at least. To some degree, we are always in some dark and seeking answers; even in Christianity. Our level of darkness is measured against our level of illumination, after all.

I have nothing against any other religion, and don't believe that everything that is not Christian is demonic by default. But if one accepts Christianity, as you say you do, you are, in affect rejecting all else. That doesn't mean that we can't appreciate what is good, and love the adherents of any other religion. It just means there's not really much there for us.  

My two cents.
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2011, 08:12:08 PM »

I believe in Christianity. But I don't feel like I really have any strong reason for rejecting Eastern pagan religions.

For an answer to your question and second sentence, refer back to your first one.  

That's not intended as a wisecrack.  "Hinduism," while interesting, operates on a very different set of understandings than Christianity, and it isn't particularly compatible.  That doesn't mean you can't be interested in it or respect it, but concepts such as samsara, along with their relationship with their gods (demon or not) isn't the same as ours.

Both can't be right, so by default, one is wrong.  I know that may seem overly simplistic, but certain elements of Christianity and the truth can be.
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2011, 08:16:50 PM »

How is theosis achieved if a person is not within the Body of Christ?

If just living an ethical life were sufficient, then there is no reason to believe in any religion, and in fact atheists are some of the most ethical folks I have met. Much more ethical than many Christians, I have to admit.

But the point of human existance is not merely to 'be good'---it is to imitate Christ in becoming a union of God and man. While we can hope that the Spirit may cause this is to happen outside of the Body of Christ, we cannot know. We CAN know that theosis happens within the Body of Christ.

So, as long as we focus on religion as being some sort of 'ethical system' most religions will seem approximately the same. The issue is that theosis needs to be preached, not release from the endless series of incarnations that causes people to be on earth.

And of course we can also mention that Christianity is a religion of love, where we reach out to others in imitation of the interaction of the Trinity as well as the recognition of the knowledge that standing in front of us is Christ Himself. With many Hindus there is the understanding that the point of incarnation on this planet is to burn off the person's karmic burden, and so to help a person is actually detrimental to them.

Therefore ask yourself which is more true to how we experience the Godhead...as a loving individual who wishes to be in relationship with us, or as a reserved figure(s) who wants us to burn off our karma prior to being released from the incarnations of this earth.
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2011, 09:00:01 PM »

Its incomplete. Hinduism can be wonderful and all, so can Buddhism, and they both contain many truths but any religious system without Christ is incomplete. Man cannot work his way into salvation. We need Christ. If you dont have Christ, you cant be saved.
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2011, 11:25:48 PM »

Hinduism is pluralistic.  Christianity is exclusivist.  By Hinduism standards, Christianity is a form of the unknown Truth in the world that leads to "the One."  By Christian standards, Christianity is the ONLY Truth, through Christ, the Way, Truth, and Life, which would lead us to the Father.

An interesting contradiction is that Hindus believe Christianity, which is exclusivist, is one of the Truths.  In other words, a pluralistic religion is saying that an anti-pluralistic religion is true.

It is also pantheist.  All things that exists is divine.  Mankind just needs to adjust his nature into what is properly his true nature.  In essence, one can perhaps see how this is pluralistic.  If all things are divine, really, what need is there to believe a deity exists.  I am my own deity, I just need to act like it to be in a good spot in the next life.  It is in a way, a mystical magical atheism.  It reduces religion to nothing but a set of moral code to follow, and not a much higher seeking of unity with a Deity that is not them, but in them and transcends them.  How this unity can be achieved is the question Christianity answers sufficiently to me in the formula of the Incarnation of the Word, so that man can be deified in the Word.
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2011, 11:48:52 PM »

We need Christ. If you dont have Christ, you cant be saved.

I agree that we need Christ in order to be saved. However, St. Paul seems to imply that even non-Christians can attain salvation.

For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another, In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Romans 2: 12-16
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2011, 11:50:02 PM »

We need Christ. If you dont have Christ, you cant be saved.

I agree that we need Christ in order to be saved. However, St. Paul seems to imply that even non-Christians can attain salvation.

For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another, In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Romans 2: 12-16

I understand this as talking about the difference between Jews and Gentiles before Christ was born.
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2011, 12:06:50 AM »

Hinduism and Esatren religion are wrong because are sorcery that is putting people and forces more powerfull than lions together. You don't play with lions and also you don't need to play with devils that are more powerfull than lions .

Since hinduism does not baptise, hindu people can not go to heaven and since hinduism worship sick angels and do sorcery, the destination can be the worst part of Hell, Tartarus where there are flames and hindu peoples are reported screaming at the moment of death. Hinduism is a curse for hindu people , however this is not visible in life only at the moment of death and beyond and hindu people should ask for Jesus whne sick angels they worshipped show them their true face . Sick angels had no remorse bringing death to people, have no remorse bringing misery to hindus after their death when the restrains of God is weaker, that is, a misery:
http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html
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"Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] "I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener. Our garden is drying up. You have brought Vasudev the student." When I regained consciousness, Vasudev the gardener was standing in front of me [apparently in the crowd of family and servants who had gathered around the bed of the ostensibly dead Vasudev]. He was hale and hearty. People started teasing him saying, "Now it is your turn." He seemed to sleep well in the night, but the next morning he was dead."

In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the "black man" had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him as Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead. He said that he was "brought back" by the same two men who had taken him to Yamraj in the first place. Vasudev's mother (who had died before the time of the interview) had been a pious woman who read scriptures that included descriptions of Yamraj. Vasudev, even as a boy before his near-death experience, was quite familiar with Yamraj.

Durga Jatav

Durga Jatav, a man approximately 50 years old, was interviewed in November, 1979, and again 3 months later. About 30 years before, he had been ill for several weeks, suffering from what had been diagnosed as typhoid. When his body "became cold" for a couple of hours, his family thought he had died. He revived, however, and on the third day following this he told his family he had been taken to another place by 10 people. He had tried to escape, but they had then cut off his legs at the knees to prevent his escape. He was taken to a place where there were tables and chairs and 40 or 50 people sitting. He recognized no one. They looked at his "papers," saw that his name was not on their list, and said, "Why have you brought him here? Take him back." To this Durga had replied, "How can I go back? I don't have feet." He was then shown several pairs of legs, he recognized his own, and they were somehow reattached. He was then sent back with the instructions not to "stretch" (bend?) his knees so that they could mend. (Durga's older sister, who was also interviewed, corroborated his account of his apparent death and revival.)

Durga's sister and a neighbor noticed a few days after he revived that marks had appeared on his knees; there had previously been no such marks there. These folds, or deep fissures, in the skin on the front of Durga's knees were still visible in 1979. There was no bleeding or pain in the knees other than the discomfort engendered by Durga's following the "instructions" to keep his knees in a fixed position. X-ray photographs that we had taken in 1981 showed no abnormality below the surface of the skin.

Durga had not heard of such experiences before his own near-death experience. He did not see his physical body from some other position in space. He said that afterward the experience seemed like a dream; nevertheless, he claimed that it had strengthened his faith in God.

One informant for this case (the headman of the village where Durga lived) said that at the time of Durga's experience another person by the same name had died in Agra (about 30 km away); however, neither Durga nor his older sister were able to confirm this statement.

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Chhajju Bania was interviewed in 1981, at which time he was about 40 years old. His near-death experience had occurred some 6 years earlier. He became ill with fever and his condition deteriorated until he was thought to have died, at which time his relatives began preparing his body for cremation. However, he revived, and he gave the following account of his experience as he remembered it afterward:

"Four black messengers came and held me. I asked, "Where are you taking me?" They took me and seated me near the god. My body had become small. There was an old lady sitting there. She had a pen in her hand, and the clerks had a heap of books in front of them. I was summoned ... One of the clerks said, "We don't need Chhajju Bania (trader). We had asked for Chhajju Kumhar (potter). Push him back and bring the other man. He (meaning Chhajju Bania) has some life remaining." I asked the clerks to give me some work to do, but not to send me back. Yamraj was there sitting on a high chair with a white beard and wearing yellow clothes. He asked me, "What do you want?" I told him that I wanted to stay there. He asked me to extend my hand. I don't remember whether he gave me something or not. Then I was pushed down [and revived]."

Chhajju mentioned that he later learned that a person called Chhajju Kumhar had died at about the same time that he (Chhajju Bania) revived. He said that his behavior had changed following his near-death experience, particularly in the direction of his becoming more honest.

Chhajju's wife, Saroj, remembered her husband's experience, but her account of what he told her about the near-death experience differed in some details from his statement. For example, she said he had told her (about reviving) that at the place to which the four men had taken him there "was a man with a beard with lots of papers in front of him" (not an old lady). The bearded man said, "It is not his turn. Bring Chhajju Kori (a weaver)" (Not Chhajju Kumhar). Other discrepancies between the two accounts concerned unimportant details. Saroj remembered her husband telling her that he had not wanted to leave "there" and that he had been "pushed down" before he revived.

Mangal Singh

Mangal Singh was interviewed in March, 1983, when he was 79 years old. He described his near-death experience, which had occurred approximately 5 or 6 years earlier. Unlike most subjects who have had near-death experiences, he was not ill at the time, or did not consider himself to be so. He gave the following description of his experience:

"I was lying down on a cot when two people came, lifted me up, and took me along. I heard a hissing sound, but I couldn't see anything. Then I came to a gate. There was grass, and the ground seemed to be sloping. A man was there, and he reprimanded the men who had brought me, "Why have you brought the wrong person? Why have you not brought the man you had been sent for?" The two men [who had brought Mangal] ran away, and the senior man said, "You go back." Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You had better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realized why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands. Suddenly I regained consciousness, and I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm."

The area developed the appearance of a boil. Mangal showed it to a doctor who applied some ointment. The area healed within 3 days but left a residual mark on the left arm, which was examined.

In response to questions, Mangal said that he thought that he might have been sleeping at the time of the experience, but he was not sure of this. He was unable to describe the appearance of the persons figuring in the experience. It seemed to be less visual than auditory and tactile. He did remember that the senior "official" had picked up a lathi (a heavy Indian staff) with which he intended to beat the lesser "employees" before they ran away. Another person had died in the locality at or about the time he revived, but Mangal and his family made no inquires about the suddenness of this person's death and did not even learn his name.


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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2011, 12:31:25 AM »

We need Christ. If you dont have Christ, you cant be saved.

I agree that we need Christ in order to be saved. However, St. Paul seems to imply that even non-Christians can attain salvation.

For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another, In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Romans 2: 12-16

I understand this as talking about the difference between Jews and Gentiles before Christ was born.

Interesting. I've never thought it that way. In the following chapter he is indeed talking that now due to Christ's arrival all are saved regardless of law so it could be conveniently interpreted as you said. But I'm still tempted to say that Paul's anti-Pharisaic polemics doesn't affect the point that he is making in the second chapter. He is talking in present tence and not just refering to the past.

Anyway, thank you for making me to read the Bible. Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2011, 02:31:30 AM »

Before I give an answer to this I'd like to add another question. Around what time did the theology of Hinduism change when the Gospel was being preached? IIRC they have some weird version of the Trinity which wasn't added to Hinduism until a few centuries after Christ rose from the dead.
I think you're referring to the "Trimurti", the idea that three Divine Persons exist as Creator (Brahma), Sustainer (Vishnu), and Transformer (Shiva). The Trimurti is rarely mentioned in Hindu scriptures and is in fact not a widely held belief at all. It seems to be important only because Christians tend to emphasize it when studying Hinduism, but most Hindus are devoted to one Divine Person (either Vishnu, or Shiva, or Shakti, e.g.) who may manifest not only as Creator, Sustainer, and Transformer. Among devotees of Shiva, Shiva is Creator, Sustainer, Transformer, Concealer of Grace, and Revealer of Grace.
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2011, 02:59:09 AM »

^ Precisely. 

The Trimurti or "Hindu Trinitarian" understanding (now widely understood to be either exaggerated or flat out inaccurate), was a reason Hindus are/were allowed to become Freemasons. 

No citations from me other than Albert Pike's Morals & Dogma, so dismiss the last portion if you desire, but Jetavan's description is right on.
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2011, 10:55:25 AM »


The fatheralexander.org website has a number of articles on Eastern religions:

http://www.fatheralexander.org/page22.htm
(scroll down to see, I think, three separate articles on Eastern religions and Hinduism)

This podcast is specifically about Yoga, but interviews a Hindu convert to Orthodoxy:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/yoga_and_orthodox_christianity_are_they_compatible

Otherwise, this podcast is specifically entitled "catechizing new age and eastern religion seekers":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/catechizing_new_age_and_eastern_religion_seekers



Convert stories may be particularly useful; here are a few...

From Hinduism: http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/category/convert-stories/polytheists/hindus-pantheists/#axzz1cHEjaJvv

From Buddhism: http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/category/convert-stories/non-theists/buddhists/#axzz1cHEjaJvv


I have a Chinese friend who converted from Daoism, though his testimony is not online.
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 11:23:56 AM »

Actually, I think you might re-phrase that question to get a better answer: Why is Christianity right?
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2011, 12:55:18 PM »

One of my colleagues at work is from India, and I have had some interesting exchanges with him about Hinduism.

If I understand him correctly, Hindus believe in the divine incarnation. Yet, while we believe in "ONE Lord, Jesus Christ," Who "for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate," they believe in a long (and possibly endless) series of incarnations of the divine Being.

They also believe in the future "end of the age," like we do. But, again, our Church teaches us about ONE such end (συντελεία), which will be followed by a complete transfiguration of everything, so dramatic that even the time as we know it will disappear. Hindus, on the other hnd, believe that the future end of the age (Cali Yuga) will be but one of the endless cycles of death and rebirth of the universe.

Hindus also have a peculiar belief in "dharma," understood, essentially, as meticulous following one's "duties" (firstly, one's sacred vows to one's family; secondly, one's duty to one's "warna"-profession, etc.) But, like Fater Chris has said, they do not have our concept of teosis. They are, essentially, pantheists, in that they believe that we all are ALREADY within the all-encompassing Divine Being. They do not see, as far as I understand them, any need in searching God or in establishing a relationship with Him.
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2011, 02:33:45 PM »

One of my colleagues at work is from India, and I have had some interesting exchanges with him about Hinduism.

If I understand him correctly, Hindus believe in the divine incarnation. Yet, while we believe in "ONE Lord, Jesus Christ," Who "for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate," they believe in a long (and possibly endless) series of incarnations of the divine Being.
Different Hindus (who can be as different theologically as Jews and Christians are different from each other) have different ideas of incarnation. Some Hindus believe that the one Divine Person incarnates whenever evil becomes dominant in the world, in order to re-establish righteousness. Devotees of Krishna believe that Krishna was one such Avatar. However, devotees of Krishna will also believe that -- even though many Avatars have existed and will exist -- only one Avatar is the Fullest Incarnation of God, that Avatar being Krishna.

Other Hindus (many devotees of Shiva) reject the idea of God specifically incarnating as one human person.

Quote
They also believe in the future "end of the age," like we do. But, again, our Church teaches us about ONE such end (συντελεία), which will be followed by a complete transfiguration of everything, so dramatic that even the time as we know it will disappear. Hindus, on the other hnd, believe that the future end of the age (Cali Yuga) will be but one of the endless cycles of death and rebirth of the universe.
Hindus may differ regarding the "end times" as well. Some Hindus believe that, yes, there are cycles of births and deaths of an infinite number of universes, but -- ultimately -- all will become One with the Divine Person, who is beyond matter, energy, time, and space. The Divine Person would then create a new set of infinite universes.

Quote
Hindus also have a peculiar belief in "dharma," understood, essentially, as meticulous following one's "duties" (firstly, one's sacred vows to one's family; secondly, one's duty to one's "warna"-profession, etc.)
Dharma also includes one's own, unique individual purpose in life, or "svadharma", or "self-dharma".
Quote
But, like Fater Chris has said, they do not have our concept of teosis.
Hindus do believe in entering into deeper, and deeper comm/union with the Divine Person. It's a process called "yoga", or "yoking", or "joining", to God.
Quote
They are, essentially, pantheists, in that they believe that we all are ALREADY within the all-encompassing Divine Being. They do not see, as far as I understand them, any need in searching God or in establishing a relationship with Him.
From a certain Hindu perspective (which not all Hindus share), yes, we are already "one" with God (because God pervades, yet transcends, all creation). But this "oneness" is of no practical effect if we don't make it "real", or manifest that prior oneness, by means of yoga, or the life lived in relationship to God. You see this very clearly in Bhakti Yoga, which is the yoga that emphasizes devotion to the Divine Person, who is both "separate" from you (because transcendent), and also "not-separate" from you (because immanent).
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2011, 03:06:59 PM »

Hinduism is not one religion but a matrix of ideas, scriptures, myths, and gods which are interpreted, organized, and emphasized differently according to which religious sect/ tendency one is talking about. Daoism in China is very similar in this regard.
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2011, 11:07:57 PM »

Hinduism is not one religion but a matrix of ideas, scriptures, myths, and gods which are interpreted, organized, and emphasized differently according to which religious sect/ tendency one is talking about. Daoism in China is very similar in this regard.

Exactly.  There is no religion called "Hinduism" in the sense that there is so much diversity in belief and practice among the sects as to make the designation almost useless.  There are some basic beliefs that most Hindus accept, e.g. Samsara, but the differences are even greater between many of these sects than among Christian denominations. 

A poor analogy would be to call Mormonism and Orthodoxy "Christianity" because both believe in Jesus.  The beliefs of a Kali worshiper in Bengal are very different from the beliefs and practices of a member of the Arya Samaj, or Gaudiya Vaishnavism.  It's as if ancient Greek religion had survived and evolved to the present day.  Many sects and schools of thought.
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2011, 12:11:29 AM »

Before I give an answer to this I'd like to add another question. Around what time did the theology of Hinduism change when the Gospel was being preached? IIRC they have some weird version of the Trinity which wasn't added to Hinduism until a few centuries after Christ rose from the dead.

They have the Trimurti of Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Sustainer and Shiva the Destroyer. Its probably not an imitation of Christianity because most Indo-European religions had a triad like that (The Romans had Jupiter, Mars, Quirinis - which was changed to Jupiter, Juno, Minerva, the Norse Freyr, Thor, Odin at the temple in Uppsala, etc).
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2011, 03:06:31 AM »

Very interesting thanks for the info.
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2011, 03:19:56 AM »

Indo-European religions
The existence of "Indo-European religion/s" as if there was a proto-Indo-European religion is a 19th century social darwinist myth.
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2011, 03:26:05 AM »

Indo-European religions
The existence of "Indo-European religion/s" as if there was a proto-Indo-European religion is a 19th century social darwinist myth.
Dude seriously where do you get all this knowledge?
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2011, 05:05:06 AM »

Indo-European religions
The existence of "Indo-European religion/s" as if there was a proto-Indo-European religion is a 19th century social darwinist myth.
Dude seriously where do you get all this knowledge?
Baseless arrogance.
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2011, 05:15:34 AM »

Indo-European religions
The existence of "Indo-European religion/s" as if there was a proto-Indo-European religion is a 19th century social darwinist myth.
Dude seriously where do you get all this knowledge?
Baseless arrogance.
So what must one do to become quite the elitist?
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2011, 08:31:19 AM »

One of my colleagues at work is from India, and I have had some interesting exchanges with him about Hinduism.

If I understand him correctly, Hindus believe in the divine incarnation. Yet, while we believe in "ONE Lord, Jesus Christ," Who "for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate," they believe in a long (and possibly endless) series of incarnations of the divine Being.
Different Hindus (who can be as different theologically as Jews and Christians are different from each other) have different ideas of incarnation. Some Hindus believe that the one Divine Person incarnates whenever evil becomes dominant in the world, in order to re-establish righteousness. Devotees of Krishna believe that Krishna was one such Avatar. However, devotees of Krishna will also believe that -- even though many Avatars have existed and will exist -- only one Avatar is the Fullest Incarnation of God, that Avatar being Krishna.

Other Hindus (many devotees of Shiva) reject the idea of God specifically incarnating as one human person.

Quote
They also believe in the future "end of the age," like we do. But, again, our Church teaches us about ONE such end (συντελεία), which will be followed by a complete transfiguration of everything, so dramatic that even the time as we know it will disappear. Hindus, on the other hnd, believe that the future end of the age (Cali Yuga) will be but one of the endless cycles of death and rebirth of the universe.
Hindus may differ regarding the "end times" as well. Some Hindus believe that, yes, there are cycles of births and deaths of an infinite number of universes, but -- ultimately -- all will become One with the Divine Person, who is beyond matter, energy, time, and space. The Divine Person would then create a new set of infinite universes.

Quote
Hindus also have a peculiar belief in "dharma," understood, essentially, as meticulous following one's "duties" (firstly, one's sacred vows to one's family; secondly, one's duty to one's "warna"-profession, etc.)
Dharma also includes one's own, unique individual purpose in life, or "svadharma", or "self-dharma".
Quote
But, like Fater Chris has said, they do not have our concept of teosis.
Hindus do believe in entering into deeper, and deeper comm/union with the Divine Person. It's a process called "yoga", or "yoking", or "joining", to God.
Quote
They are, essentially, pantheists, in that they believe that we all are ALREADY within the all-encompassing Divine Being. They do not see, as far as I understand them, any need in searching God or in establishing a relationship with Him.
From a certain Hindu perspective (which not all Hindus share), yes, we are already "one" with God (because God pervades, yet transcends, all creation). But this "oneness" is of no practical effect if we don't make it "real", or manifest that prior oneness, by means of yoga, or the life lived in relationship to God. You see this very clearly in Bhakti Yoga, which is the yoga that emphasizes devotion to the Divine Person, who is both "separate" from you (because transcendent), and also "not-separate" from you (because immanent).

Many thanks!
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2011, 09:08:34 AM »

Indo-European religions
The existence of "Indo-European religion/s" as if there was a proto-Indo-European religion is a 19th century social darwinist myth.
Dude seriously where do you get all this knowledge?
Baseless arrogance.
So what must one do to become quite the elitist?
A diet of arugula, lightly steamed with olive oil and tumeric, helps.
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« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2011, 09:21:45 AM »

Hinduism is contrary to the salvation of Jesus Christ although this does not mean anyone is excluded from the Beatitudes as God will determine.
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2011, 09:44:50 AM »

The book "The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Paisios" gives a very helpful understanding of how Orthodoxy and Hinduism differ spiritually.  This is the story of a young man who involved himself in yoga and various mind control practices, went to Mt. Athos and spent time with Elder Paisios, then moved to a Hindu ashram in India, and finally returned to Elder Paisios again on Mt. Athos.  The sotory is extremely valuable in that the man who relates his experience immersed himself completely in the best of Orthodoxy and the "best" of Hinduism, so he is uniquely able to articulate the differences between them based on personal spiritual experience and not merely by comparing various beliefs, teachings, practices, etc.  Here is a link to the book:

http://stherman.com/Catalog/Elder_Paisios/guru_book.htm

from the website:

This powerful memoir tells the story of a Greek youth who, out of a desire to know the truth empirically, began to experiment in yoga, hypnotism, and various occult techniques. Eventually drawn back to the Faith of his forefathers—Orthodox Christianity—he visited the ancient monastic republic of Mount Athos in his native Greece, where he was brought to a knowledge of the Truth of Jesus Christ by the saintly Elder Paisios (1924–1994). Nevertheless, believing he had only found “part of the truth” on the Holy Mountain, he chose to give the “same opportunity” to Hindu yogis that he had given to Elder Paisios and other Orthodox monks. Thus, at the age of twenty-five, he embarked on a trip to India, where he undertook his search in the ashrams of three famous gurus, one of whom was worshipped as a god. His experiences in India, along with his subsequent encounters with Elder Paisios on Mount Athos, are recounted in the present book in vivid detail.

Popular in Greece since its first publication there in 2001, The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Paisios is a page-turning narrative of both outward adventures and inward struggles. What stands out most in this book, however, is the radiant image of Elder Paisios, possessed of divine gifts, laboring in prayer for his fellow man, and overflowing with unconditional love. Through this, one sees the uncreated Source of the elder’s love and of the author’s spiritual transformation: the true God-man Jesus Christ, Who honors man’s personal freedom while drawing him, through love, into everlasting union with Himself.
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« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2011, 09:53:17 AM »

The sotory is extremely valuable in that the man who relates his experience immersed himself completely in the best of Orthodoxy and the "best" of Hinduism, so he is uniquely able to articulate the differences between them based on personal spiritual experience and not merely by comparing various beliefs, teachings, practices, etc.  [/color]
I agree that the story is very valuable, but it must be admitted that the young man did not necessarily experience the "best" of Hinduism. According to many, the most widely respected Hindu sage of the 20th century was Ramana Maharshi, whom the young never met, and -- if I remember correctly -- did not mention in the text at all.
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« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2011, 10:00:45 AM »

Yes, that book really only addresses one small corner of Hinduism. The guru whom he encountered is considered a false guru by many other Hindu currents. I thought the book would have more general relevance if it took some time to address elements of Hindu philosophies and compared them with Christian teaching.
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« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2011, 10:15:27 AM »

Yes, that book really only addresses one small corner of Hinduism. The guru whom he encountered is considered a false guru by many other Hindu currents. I thought the book would have more general relevance if it took some time to address elements of Hindu philosophies and compared them with Christian teaching.

How are there "false" gurus in Hinduism?
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« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2011, 10:32:24 AM »

The sotory is extremely valuable in that the man who relates his experience immersed himself completely in the best of Orthodoxy and the "best" of Hinduism, so he is uniquely able to articulate the differences between them based on personal spiritual experience and not merely by comparing various beliefs, teachings, practices, etc.  [/color]
I agree that the story is very valuable, but it must be admitted that the young man did not necessarily experience the "best" of Hinduism. According to many, the most widely respected Hindu sage of the 20th century was Ramana Maharshi, whom the young never met, and -- if I remember correctly -- did not mention in the text at all.

The Young Man had no opportunity to meet Ramana Mahareshi because the latter reposed many years before in 1950.  Ramana also left no disciples or lineage.
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« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2011, 12:38:46 PM »

The sotory is extremely valuable in that the man who relates his experience immersed himself completely in the best of Orthodoxy and the "best" of Hinduism, so he is uniquely able to articulate the differences between them based on personal spiritual experience and not merely by comparing various beliefs, teachings, practices, etc.  [/color]
I agree that the story is very valuable, but it must be admitted that the young man did not necessarily experience the "best" of Hinduism. According to many, the most widely respected Hindu sage of the 20th century was Ramana Maharshi, whom the young never met, and -- if I remember correctly -- did not mention in the text at all.

The Young Man had no opportunity to meet Ramana Mahareshi because the latter reposed many years before in 1950.  Ramana also left no disciples or lineage.
Ramana Maharshi did have realized disciples, and his ashram exists still today, even though he started no official lineage.

But Ramana Maharshi is simply one among many well-respected Hindu sages. Another was Nisargadatta, who died in 1983. If the young man was in India in the 80s and 90s, he could have met many well-respected Hindu saints, like Ammachi (Mata Amritanandamayi).
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« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2011, 12:48:17 PM »

Yes, that book really only addresses one small corner of Hinduism. The guru whom he encountered is considered a false guru by many other Hindu currents. I thought the book would have more general relevance if it took some time to address elements of Hindu philosophies and compared them with Christian teaching.

How are there "false" gurus in Hinduism?
A "false" guru is someone who takes advantage of those searching for Truth, and a false guru can take many forms. Swami Sivananda, a well-respected Hindu sage, critically addressed the issue of false gurus:

Quote
I strongly resent the actions of hypocrites who pose for Gurus and Acharyas [spiritual teachers] and move about making disciples and collecting money. You will all agree with me on this point. There cannot be any two opinions in this direction. They are the pests of society. Gurudom [the pretense of pretending to be a true guru] has come to be mere business. It must be thoroughly eradicated from the soil of India. It is doing great havoc and harm to the people of India. It is creating a very bad impression in the minds of the Westerners and people of different countries. India is losing its spiritual glory on account of this Gurudom business. Drastic steps should be taken immediately to nip this serious malady and destroy it to its very root. No stone should be left unturned in its eradication. It has assumed a hideous shape. It has become very contagious. Many have taken to this Gurudom business as an easy means of decent livelihood. Poor ignorant ladies and gentlemen are exploited by these pseudo-Gurus on an enormous scale. What a shame!

Many Gurus move about hither and thither. They deliver lectures and conduct discourses. They know Brahma Sutras and [the Bhagavad] Gita by heart, but they have no knowledge and meditation. They are easily irritated. Their Abhimana [pride, arrogance] is very stiff. They lack in divine attributes and Sadhutva [the traits of asceticism]. They have no spirit of service. They speak ill of service, Kirtan [devotional singing to God], etc. They catch many people by the arm. They bless them by placing their hands on their backs. But, they are not able to send one man across to final Salvation or beatitude.

The public [many of whom too easily deceived] will take a man to be a Guru only if he exhibits some Siddhis [various miraculous powers, which are side effects of yogic practices and distractions from the real aim of God-realization]. It is a serious mistake. They must not be over-credulous. They will be easily duped by these Yogic charlatans. They must use their power of discrimination and reasoning. They must study the ways, habits, nature, conduct, Vritti [mental state], Svabhava [bodily presentation], etc., of the Guru and test his knowledge of scriptures, before they come to any definite conclusion [regarding the integrity of the 'guru'].


One of the gurus that the young man encountered (whose ashram he stayed in) exhibited some minor siddhis (like mind-reading), siddhis gained as a result of meditation and yoga, but he used that power negatively, rather than in a positive, non-violent fashion.
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« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2011, 01:10:21 PM »

Nevermind, not going to argue since there's no point.
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« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2011, 01:39:14 PM »

Yes, that book really only addresses one small corner of Hinduism. The guru whom he encountered is considered a false guru by many other Hindu currents. I thought the book would have more general relevance if it took some time to address elements of Hindu philosophies and compared them with Christian teaching.

How are there "false" gurus in Hinduism?
A "false" guru is someone who takes advantage of those searching for Truth, and a false guru can take many forms. Swami Sivananda, a well-respected Hindu sage, critically addressed the issue of false gurus:

Quote
I strongly resent the actions of hypocrites who pose for Gurus and Acharyas [spiritual teachers] and move about making disciples and collecting money. You will all agree with me on this point. There cannot be any two opinions in this direction. They are the pests of society. Gurudom [the pretense of pretending to be a true guru] has come to be mere business. It must be thoroughly eradicated from the soil of India. It is doing great havoc and harm to the people of India. It is creating a very bad impression in the minds of the Westerners and people of different countries. India is losing its spiritual glory on account of this Gurudom business. Drastic steps should be taken immediately to nip this serious malady and destroy it to its very root. No stone should be left unturned in its eradication. It has assumed a hideous shape. It has become very contagious. Many have taken to this Gurudom business as an easy means of decent livelihood. Poor ignorant ladies and gentlemen are exploited by these pseudo-Gurus on an enormous scale. What a shame!

Many Gurus move about hither and thither. They deliver lectures and conduct discourses. They know Brahma Sutras and [the Bhagavad] Gita by heart, but they have no knowledge and meditation. They are easily irritated. Their Abhimana [pride, arrogance] is very stiff. They lack in divine attributes and Sadhutva [the traits of asceticism]. They have no spirit of service. They speak ill of service, Kirtan [devotional singing to God], etc. They catch many people by the arm. They bless them by placing their hands on their backs. But, they are not able to send one man across to final Salvation or beatitude.

The public [many of whom too easily deceived] will take a man to be a Guru only if he exhibits some Siddhis [various miraculous powers, which are side effects of yogic practices and distractions from the real aim of God-realization]. It is a serious mistake. They must not be over-credulous. They will be easily duped by these Yogic charlatans. They must use their power of discrimination and reasoning. They must study the ways, habits, nature, conduct, Vritti [mental state], Svabhava [bodily presentation], etc., of the Guru and test his knowledge of scriptures, before they come to any definite conclusion [regarding the integrity of the 'guru'].


One of the gurus that the young man encountered (whose ashram he stayed in) exhibited some minor siddhis (like mind-reading), siddhis gained as a result of meditation and yoga, but he used that power negatively, rather than in a positive, non-violent fashion.

Do some of those gurus ever talk about religions started by "false gurus"?  How can a Hindu tell the difference between an idea that all religions lead to the way and some gurus are false?  Clearly, there are some religious standards one has to stand by it seems.  Interestingly enough, "knowledge of scriptures" would be one thing I wouldn't expect a Hindu to say.  What if another guru started his own scriptures?
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« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2011, 01:58:07 PM »

Yes, that book really only addresses one small corner of Hinduism. The guru whom he encountered is considered a false guru by many other Hindu currents. I thought the book would have more general relevance if it took some time to address elements of Hindu philosophies and compared them with Christian teaching.

How are there "false" gurus in Hinduism?
A "false" guru is someone who takes advantage of those searching for Truth, and a false guru can take many forms. Swami Sivananda, a well-respected Hindu sage, critically addressed the issue of false gurus:

Quote
I strongly resent the actions of hypocrites who pose for Gurus and Acharyas [spiritual teachers] and move about making disciples and collecting money. You will all agree with me on this point. There cannot be any two opinions in this direction. They are the pests of society. Gurudom [the pretense of pretending to be a true guru] has come to be mere business. It must be thoroughly eradicated from the soil of India. It is doing great havoc and harm to the people of India. It is creating a very bad impression in the minds of the Westerners and people of different countries. India is losing its spiritual glory on account of this Gurudom business. Drastic steps should be taken immediately to nip this serious malady and destroy it to its very root. No stone should be left unturned in its eradication. It has assumed a hideous shape. It has become very contagious. Many have taken to this Gurudom business as an easy means of decent livelihood. Poor ignorant ladies and gentlemen are exploited by these pseudo-Gurus on an enormous scale. What a shame!

Many Gurus move about hither and thither. They deliver lectures and conduct discourses. They know Brahma Sutras and [the Bhagavad] Gita by heart, but they have no knowledge and meditation. They are easily irritated. Their Abhimana [pride, arrogance] is very stiff. They lack in divine attributes and Sadhutva [the traits of asceticism]. They have no spirit of service. They speak ill of service, Kirtan [devotional singing to God], etc. They catch many people by the arm. They bless them by placing their hands on their backs. But, they are not able to send one man across to final Salvation or beatitude.

The public [many of whom too easily deceived] will take a man to be a Guru only if he exhibits some Siddhis [various miraculous powers, which are side effects of yogic practices and distractions from the real aim of God-realization]. It is a serious mistake. They must not be over-credulous. They will be easily duped by these Yogic charlatans. They must use their power of discrimination and reasoning. They must study the ways, habits, nature, conduct, Vritti [mental state], Svabhava [bodily presentation], etc., of the Guru and test his knowledge of scriptures, before they come to any definite conclusion [regarding the integrity of the 'guru'].


One of the gurus that the young man encountered (whose ashram he stayed in) exhibited some minor siddhis (like mind-reading), siddhis gained as a result of meditation and yoga, but he used that power negatively, rather than in a positive, non-violent fashion.

Do some of those gurus ever talk about religions started by "false gurus"?
Different gurus would have different opinions on a religion created by a false guru.
Quote
How can a Hindu tell the difference between an idea that all religions lead to the way and some gurus are false?
When Hindus speak of "all religions" leading to God, they don't mean that literallySmiley That is, there could be a religion based on murdering red-headed people; such a path won't lead to God, if the person keeps practicing that religion. However, such a path will lead one to God, if one eventually realizes that murdering people is in fact taking one further away from God. And the remorse or repentance that you might feel, after murdering all those people, might give you a more intense, burning desire to find God, such that you find God more quickly than you would have otherwise. So, in the ultimate sense, yes, all paths lead to God -- but some paths (like those of murder, theft, etc.) require that you get off those paths, and apply your energy to a Godward path. But having been on the murderous path, you might now be much more sensitive than many other people to the suffering of other living creatures; perhaps now, on the Godward path, you become a vegetarian, or a champion of non-violent social change.

Quote
Clearly, there are some religious standards one has to stand by it seems.  Interestingly enough, "knowledge of scriptures" would be one thing I wouldn't expect a Hindu to say.  What if another guru started his own scriptures?
Knowledge of the scriptures is crucial: the Vedas have been maintained and preserved by the brahmins for at least 3500 years, much of that time the preservation was by oral tradition and memory.

Since Hinduism sees revelation as continuous, and since Hinduism believes that true Gurus will be born into the future, every so often, "true" scriptures will appear in the future. Distinguishing a future, false guru scripture from a future, true Guru scripture will require discrimination, prayer, and seeking advice from living true Gurus.
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« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2011, 02:38:19 PM »

Indo-European religions
The existence of "Indo-European religion/s" as if there was a proto-Indo-European religion is a 19th century social darwinist myth.
Dude seriously where do you get all this knowledge?
Baseless arrogance.
So what must one do to become quite the elitist?
Read a paragraph of a text and then pretend that you have read and contemplated the entirety of the text. Repeat 10,000 times.

Wikipedia helps.
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« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2011, 03:02:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Hinduism is "wrong" for the same reasons Muslims and Jews are wrong.  Muslims and Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but they can't embrace Him as the Son of God.  Indian philosophies the West connotates as Hinduism make the opposite error, they embrace ALL life as an Avatar of God, as God Himself, and therefore Jesus Christ is not THE Incarnation, He is AN Incarnation.  That is a fundamental difference.

Orthodox Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ is the physical Son of God, God Incarnated, and the Only Incarnation of God EVER, the same, yesterday, today, and forever, and that we access Him through the Mysteries.  Indians and Muslims and Jews may worship God, true, but they are not worshiping in the fullness of God.  God has established a New Covenant through Jesus Christ's Incarnation and Resurrection, and so folks must from then on come to Him directly through His Church where He always is.

I will say this though, Indian philosophy I personally feel is quite valuable to study as it helps pose very deep, existential, theological, and philosophical questions in directions even the fathers rarely delve, and so it if read in the right insight, can help formulate deeper questions to consult the Church writings.  I enjoy to literature of Indian and her philosophies, but I would not take their insights as Gospel truth, so much as maybe they are more like spiritual mathematics books.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2012, 08:28:44 AM »

"An Indian will listen to his guru, nod his head, and go home and, even if he’s a deeply religious person, ignore fifty per cent of what the guru has told him, because his own sense of the world tells him to do that,” an Indian man who is well versed in Yogic culture said to me recently. But Westerners who jump heart first into a cloistered Indian subculture do not always find it easy to distinguish what is spiritual from what is Indian -- or merely the whim of the guru.
-- Lis Harris, “O Guru, Guru, Guru”, The New Yorker, 14 November 1994
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 08:29:04 AM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2012, 06:24:14 PM »

Yes, that book really only addresses one small corner of Hinduism. The guru whom he encountered is considered a false guru by many other Hindu currents. I thought the book would have more general relevance if it took some time to address elements of Hindu philosophies and compared them with Christian teaching.

How are there "false" gurus in Hinduism?

Simple

The whole religion is 'false". therefor all "gurus" are also false!

Why do most people here tend to overcomlicate things?
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« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2012, 07:26:52 PM »

What I don't get is how do you even define what Hinduism is? Every time I try to look for some clear Hindu doctrines or main teachings I can never find anything or receive any satisfactory answer. The word Hindu seems more like an umbrella term for several Indian religions and subcultures very roughly connected.
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« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2012, 10:29:50 PM »

The word Hindu seems more like an umbrella term for several Indian religions and subcultures very roughly connected.

That's exactly what it is. If you want clear doctrines you need to look at the specific schools.
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« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2012, 02:01:17 PM »

"An Indian will listen to his guru, nod his head, and go home and, even if he’s a deeply religious person, ignore fifty per cent of what the guru has told him, because his own sense of the world tells him to do that,” an Indian man who is well versed in Yogic culture said to me recently. But Westerners who jump heart first into a cloistered Indian subculture do not always find it easy to distinguish what is spiritual from what is Indian -- or merely the whim of the guru.
-- Lis Harris, “O Guru, Guru, Guru”, The New Yorker, 14 November 1994
Same with Staretz's in ze old cauntree, I bet.
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« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2012, 12:45:45 PM »

Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
By Hieromonk Isaac
pp. 290-292

The Hindu Leader

The Elder helped a lot of people who had gotten mixed up with yoga and Eastern religions.  A Greek man who had once been a leading representative of the Hare Krishna movement recalls his experience with the Elder:  “I first heard of Elder Paisios when I was in Italy.  The leaders of our organization from all the European countries had gathered for a meeting, and it was there that I heard about Father Paisios.  They portrayed him as a yogi who had turned up in Greece, so I decided to go and meet him.

“After coming to Greece and meeting the Elder, I began to realize my error.  When I told the leaders that I wanted to leave the group, they fought me intensely.  Although I had been in charge of the whole organization and traveled all over Europe, I was now afraid just to get on the local bus.  Even the most trivial tasks seemed to be incredibly difficult.  My soul felt paralyzed by pain and fear.  I had given the devil a lot of authority(236) in my life, but the Elder helped me to escape.  If it hadn’t been for him sheltering me with his prayers, I wouldn’t ever have been able to break away from their satanic hold over me.” 

Later, the young man made a public confession of faith in a church in Athens and was received back into the bosom of the Orthodox Church by the mystery of chrismation.


A Disciple of Maharaji

Once, the Elder was visited by a rich man, who, along with his entire family, followed the Hindu guru Maharaji.(237) He had been initiated by the guru, in the argot of the movement, “he had received the Knowledge” – and they had traveled to Europe’s major cities at great expense to see him.

Using his gift of clairvoyance, the Elder related various facts about the man’s own life to him, and he advised him to get a job, even if he didn’t need one, saying that work would do him good.

Impressed by the Elder’s spiritual gifts, the man asked him about meditation and other spiritual techniques.  “Look, my child,” the Elder kindly interrupted him, “techniques don’t matter at all.  You’re trying, but where you’re digging, there’s no gold; there’s just the devil.  The gold is Christ.”


------------------------
Notes:

236.  Literally, “rights”; that is to say, through his participation in demonic activity, the man had brought upon himself the interference of the devil in his life…. –ed. 

237.  Variously known as Balyogeswar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, and Prem Rawat, the guru inherited in childhood the title of “Perfect Master,” the latest in a series of figures claimed to include Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus Christ.  Though his public image in the West became increasingly secular in the late Seventies, he was originally openly hailed as “The Lord of the Universe” – ed.
 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 12:47:42 PM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2012, 11:11:00 AM »

My opinion is this.

There are writings by Hindus that "prove" Christianity wrong.  If you believe in Hinduism, you are naturally going to believe those apologetics more.
Likewise, if you are a Christian, you are naturally going to believe those writings/apologetics more.
Same for Muslim, Pagan, etc.

Many of these religions have the "golden rule" types of teachings, however - withing Christianity it teaches you something often different.

It teaches you to love one another, pray/love those who hate you, forgiveness.
It teaches you to give more to those who have stolen from you, being humble when you have done wrong, and to be separate from the world.
It teaches you of sacraments, that riches are unimportant, and that there is nothing more important than your faith and love for Christ.

Ultimately, by reward from following the teachings of the Christian triune god, that you can achieve a reward of salvation.

"Heaven" is a reward spoken of in many faiths, but the narrow path to get there is much different and more beautiful in Christianity.
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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2012, 02:59:50 PM »

Dhalsim has the powers of yoga fire and yoga flame.
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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2012, 03:02:31 PM »

Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
By Hieromonk Isaac
pp. 290-292

The Hindu Leader

The Elder helped a lot of people who had gotten mixed up with yoga and Eastern religions.  A Greek man who had once been a leading representative of the Hare Krishna movement recalls his experience with the Elder:  “I first heard of Elder Paisios when I was in Italy.  The leaders of our organization from all the European countries had gathered for a meeting, and it was there that I heard about Father Paisios.  They portrayed him as a yogi who had turned up in Greece, so I decided to go and meet him.

“After coming to Greece and meeting the Elder, I began to realize my error.  When I told the leaders that I wanted to leave the group, they fought me intensely.  Although I had been in charge of the whole organization and traveled all over Europe, I was now afraid just to get on the local bus.  Even the most trivial tasks seemed to be incredibly difficult.  My soul felt paralyzed by pain and fear.  I had given the devil a lot of authority(236) in my life, but the Elder helped me to escape.  If it hadn’t been for him sheltering me with his prayers, I wouldn’t ever have been able to break away from their satanic hold over me.” 

Later, the young man made a public confession of faith in a church in Athens and was received back into the bosom of the Orthodox Church by the mystery of chrismation.


A Disciple of Maharaji

Once, the Elder was visited by a rich man, who, along with his entire family, followed the Hindu guru Maharaji.(237) He had been initiated by the guru, in the argot of the movement, “he had received the Knowledge” – and they had traveled to Europe’s major cities at great expense to see him.

Using his gift of clairvoyance, the Elder related various facts about the man’s own life to him, and he advised him to get a job, even if he didn’t need one, saying that work would do him good.

Impressed by the Elder’s spiritual gifts, the man asked him about meditation and other spiritual techniques.  “Look, my child,” the Elder kindly interrupted him, “techniques don’t matter at all.  You’re trying, but where you’re digging, there’s no gold; there’s just the devil.  The gold is Christ.”


------------------------
Notes:

236.  Literally, “rights”; that is to say, through his participation in demonic activity, the man had brought upon himself the interference of the devil in his life…. –ed. 

237.  Variously known as Balyogeswar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, and Prem Rawat, the guru inherited in childhood the title of “Perfect Master,” the latest in a series of figures claimed to include Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus Christ.  Though his public image in the West became increasingly secular in the late Seventies, he was originally openly hailed as “The Lord of the Universe” – ed.
 

do any of these leaders and disciples have names?
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« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2012, 05:12:25 PM »

I find it difficult to  understand how anyone can compare Christianity with Hinduism, or for that matter with any pagan Eastern religion. Christians preach under the authority of Jesus Christ the Son of God, not under their own authority.  When the gurus do so, aren't  they exalting themselves as being equal to God?  Excuse me but isn't this what Lucifer did and wouldn't they be elevating themselves and making themselves a demigod? Huh
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« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2012, 05:25:49 PM »

Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
By Hieromonk Isaac
pp. 290-292

The Hindu Leader

The Elder helped a lot of people who had gotten mixed up with yoga and Eastern religions.  A Greek man who had once been a leading representative of the Hare Krishna movement recalls his experience with the Elder:  “I first heard of Elder Paisios when I was in Italy.  The leaders of our organization from all the European countries had gathered for a meeting, and it was there that I heard about Father Paisios.  They portrayed him as a yogi who had turned up in Greece, so I decided to go and meet him.

“After coming to Greece and meeting the Elder, I began to realize my error.  When I told the leaders that I wanted to leave the group, they fought me intensely.  Although I had been in charge of the whole organization and traveled all over Europe, I was now afraid just to get on the local bus.  Even the most trivial tasks seemed to be incredibly difficult.  My soul felt paralyzed by pain and fear.  I had given the devil a lot of authority(236) in my life, but the Elder helped me to escape.  If it hadn’t been for him sheltering me with his prayers, I wouldn’t ever have been able to break away from their satanic hold over me.” 

Later, the young man made a public confession of faith in a church in Athens and was received back into the bosom of the Orthodox Church by the mystery of chrismation.


A Disciple of Maharaji

Once, the Elder was visited by a rich man, who, along with his entire family, followed the Hindu guru Maharaji.(237) He had been initiated by the guru, in the argot of the movement, “he had received the Knowledge” – and they had traveled to Europe’s major cities at great expense to see him.

Using his gift of clairvoyance, the Elder related various facts about the man’s own life to him, and he advised him to get a job, even if he didn’t need one, saying that work would do him good.

Impressed by the Elder’s spiritual gifts, the man asked him about meditation and other spiritual techniques.  “Look, my child,” the Elder kindly interrupted him, “techniques don’t matter at all.  You’re trying, but where you’re digging, there’s no gold; there’s just the devil.  The gold is Christ.”


------------------------
Notes:

236.  Literally, “rights”; that is to say, through his participation in demonic activity, the man had brought upon himself the interference of the devil in his life…. –ed. 

237.  Variously known as Balyogeswar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, and Prem Rawat, the guru inherited in childhood the title of “Perfect Master,” the latest in a series of figures claimed to include Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus Christ.  Though his public image in the West became increasingly secular in the late Seventies, he was originally openly hailed as “The Lord of the Universe” – ed.
 

do any of these leaders and disciples have names?

According to you the Elder is lying ?
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« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2012, 10:13:36 PM »

Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
By Hieromonk Isaac
pp. 290-292

The Hindu Leader

The Elder helped a lot of people who had gotten mixed up with yoga and Eastern religions.  A Greek man who had once been a leading representative of the Hare Krishna movement recalls his experience with the Elder:  “I first heard of Elder Paisios when I was in Italy.  The leaders of our organization from all the European countries had gathered for a meeting, and it was there that I heard about Father Paisios.  They portrayed him as a yogi who had turned up in Greece, so I decided to go and meet him.

“After coming to Greece and meeting the Elder, I began to realize my error.  When I told the leaders that I wanted to leave the group, they fought me intensely.  Although I had been in charge of the whole organization and traveled all over Europe, I was now afraid just to get on the local bus.  Even the most trivial tasks seemed to be incredibly difficult.  My soul felt paralyzed by pain and fear.  I had given the devil a lot of authority(236) in my life, but the Elder helped me to escape.  If it hadn’t been for him sheltering me with his prayers, I wouldn’t ever have been able to break away from their satanic hold over me.”  

Later, the young man made a public confession of faith in a church in Athens and was received back into the bosom of the Orthodox Church by the mystery of chrismation.


A Disciple of Maharaji

Once, the Elder was visited by a rich man, who, along with his entire family, followed the Hindu guru Maharaji.(237) He had been initiated by the guru, in the argot of the movement, “he had received the Knowledge” – and they had traveled to Europe’s major cities at great expense to see him.

Using his gift of clairvoyance, the Elder related various facts about the man’s own life to him, and he advised him to get a job, even if he didn’t need one, saying that work would do him good.

Impressed by the Elder’s spiritual gifts, the man asked him about meditation and other spiritual techniques.  “Look, my child,” the Elder kindly interrupted him, “techniques don’t matter at all.  You’re trying, but where you’re digging, there’s no gold; there’s just the devil.  The gold is Christ.”


------------------------
Notes:

236.  Literally, “rights”; that is to say, through his participation in demonic activity, the man had brought upon himself the interference of the devil in his life…. –ed.  

237.  Variously known as Balyogeswar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, and Prem Rawat, the guru inherited in childhood the title of “Perfect Master,” the latest in a series of figures claimed to include Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus Christ.  Though his public image in the West became increasingly secular in the late Seventies, he was originally openly hailed as “The Lord of the Universe” – ed.
 

do any of these leaders and disciples have names?
The "Maharaji" had the birth name of Prem Pal Singh Rawat.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 10:15:17 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2012, 03:51:08 PM »

My opinion is this.

There are writings by Hindus that "prove" Christianity wrong.  If you believe in Hinduism, you are naturally going to believe those apologetics more.
Likewise, if you are a Christian, you are naturally going to believe those writings/apologetics more.
Same for Muslim, Pagan, etc.

Many of these religions have the "golden rule" types of teachings, however - withing Christianity it teaches you something often different.

It teaches you to love one another, pray/love those who hate you, forgiveness.
It teaches you to give more to those who have stolen from you, being humble when you have done wrong, and to be separate from the world.
It teaches you of sacraments, that riches are unimportant, and that there is nothing more important than your faith and love for Christ.

Ultimately, by reward from following the teachings of the Christian triune god, that you can achieve a reward of salvation.

"Heaven" is a reward spoken of in many faiths, but the narrow path to get there is much different and more beautiful in Christianity.

 Heaven in Christianity is uniting with God in His Kingdom and the only way man can accomplish this is to become like God himself.  In order for man to do so, he has to  know what God consists of, so as man progressed God began  gradually to reveal Himself.

God started revealing Himself first to the Jews and gave  Moses a set of moral laws.  When God felt the time was ripe, He gave man a fuller and more complete 'vision' of what He is by incarnating His Word into the Person of Jesus Christ.  With His Incarnation, God revealed to man that He  was pure unadulterated 'Love' in the only way man could understand, and that was by the sacrifice of His one and only Son.

 Since obtaining love by following a set of moral laws and a set of 'do's and don't' is almost an impossibility, man becomes dependant on God for it.   To obtain this 'love' within them, one has to open his heart  to the Holy Spirit and that can only be done when they  recognize their limitations and their dependency on God.   

 Christianity is purely a religion of faith.  It can never be understood  through  human faculties alone, but through faith all becomes revealed to us.    angel
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« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2013, 07:47:09 PM »

"An Indian will listen to his guru, nod his head, and go home and, even if he’s a deeply religious person, ignore fifty per cent of what the guru has told him, because his own sense of the world tells him to do that,” an Indian man who is well versed in Yogic culture said to me recently. But Westerners who jump heart first into a cloistered Indian subculture do not always find it easy to distinguish what is spiritual from what is Indian -- or merely the whim of the guru.
-- Lis Harris, “O Guru, Guru, Guru”, The New Yorker, 14 November 1994
Same with Staretz's in ze old cauntree, I bet.

On a similar note:

"Mr. Martin, now a Zen abbot in Victoria, British Columbia, accused [Buddhist teacher Joshu Sasaki] of a “career of misconduct,” from “frequent and repeated non-consensual groping of female students” to “sexually coercive after-hours ‘tea’ meetings, to affairs,” as well as interfering in his students’ marriages. Soon thereafter, the independent “witnessing council” of noted Zen teachers began interviewing 25 current or former students of Mr. Sasaki.
....
The witnessing council, which wrote the report, has no official authority. Its members belong to the American Zen Teachers Association but collected stories on their own initiative, although with a statement of support from 45 other teachers and priests. One of its authors, Grace Schireson, said that Zen Buddhists in the United States have misinterpreted a Japanese philosophy.

“Because of their long history with Zen practice, people in Japan have some skepticism about priests,” Ms. Schireson said. But in the United States many proponents have a “devotion to the guru or the teacher in a way that could repress our common sense and emotional intelligence.”

[The LATimes (which is free, as far as I know) also has a story on Sasaki]
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 08:06:45 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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