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Author Topic: U.K.: succession law to allow first-born royal daughters to inherit throne  (Read 4767 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 28, 2011, 07:48:33 PM »

The countries of the U.K.'s Commonwealth have agreed to amend the succession law so that a first-born royal daughter may inherit the throne. Previously, the law had required such a child to be passed over in favor of sons.

From the BBC article:
Quote
It means a first-born daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge would take precedence over younger brothers.

The ban on the monarch being married to a Roman Catholic was also lifted.

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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 08:00:40 PM »

Clarification: Such a law would still need to be passed by the parliament of each of the Commonwealth nations, before it can take effect.
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 08:03:21 PM »

Thank you. I stand corrected.
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 08:47:15 PM »

From the BBC article:
Quote

The ban on the monarch being married to a Roman Catholic was also lifted.

Interesting. I wonder if that would mean anything for HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, who was, prior to his marriage to the Queen, the Prince of Greece and Denmark and from what accounts I've heard a fairly pious Orthodox Christian? Of course, he was made to convert to Anglicanism.
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 08:47:47 PM »

Whether you like the monarchy or you're a hippie heathen commie, does anyone else think it's a tad odd when subjects try to call the shots regarding stuff like this?  I understand that it's not a new occurrence, but it's still strange to me.

"Yes, yes, you are royalty and are entitled to honor and these privileges, but we know what's best and will dictate protocol to you."

They should know that if they push too hard, the Knights of the Realm such as Elton John, in all of his Anglo-Saxon might, shall be released on them.

God Save The Queen.  

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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 08:50:21 PM »

From the BBC article:
Quote

The ban on the monarch being married to a Roman Catholic was also lifted.

Interesting. I wonder if that would mean anything for HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, who was, prior to his marriage to the Queen, the Prince of Greece and Denmark and from what accounts I've heard a fairly pious Orthodox Christian? Of course, he was made to convert to Anglicanism.

I get your drift, but I think saying he was made to convert is a bit of an overstatement.  Interesting question though.
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 08:52:00 PM »

Say, would that mean he can go back to being Orthodox, and England can have an Orthodox prince?  Grin
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 08:56:45 PM »

The countries of the U.K.'s Commonwealth have agreed to amend the succession law so that a first-born royal daughter may inherit the throne. Previously, the law had required such a child to be passed over in favor of sons.

From the BBC article:
Quote
It means a first-born daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge would take precedence over younger brothers.

The ban on the monarch being married to a Roman Catholic was also lifted.



About time, too! Although, it's a shame that the best person for the job isn't chosen as was the ancient norm. I guess the dynamics were different. I must stop living in the past!  laugh
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 09:05:08 PM »

From the BBC article:
Quote

The ban on the monarch being married to a Roman Catholic was also lifted.

Interesting. I wonder if that would mean anything for HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, who was, prior to his marriage to the Queen, the Prince of Greece and Denmark and from what accounts I've heard a fairly pious Orthodox Christian? Of course, he was made to convert to Anglicanism.

I get your drift, but I think saying he was made to convert is a bit of an overstatement.  Interesting question though.

Granted. It's not like he was forced at gunpoint to renounce his faith! But it was and has been a formality for centuries, regardless of what nation the royal is marrying into...you convert to their faith. It's simply what is done. If he wanted to marry HM Elizabeth, he was going to convert to Anglicanism.

Say, would that mean he can go back to being Orthodox, and England can have an Orthodox prince?  Grin

That's what I'd like to hear. I've heard several accounts that hint at HRH having a very pious Orthodox devotion, even to this very day. Perhaps this will pass on to his children? icons of Christ and the Theotokos did make an appearance at the latest royal wedding, after all...

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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 09:13:46 PM »

Anglican congregations seem, more and more, to be recanting of Reformation iconoclasm. So many I have visited proudly displayed icons with vigil candles burning. From the people I spoke with, there is a desperation to return to something solidly rooted in ancient Christianity. Celtic (and Saxon) saints are playing quite a part in this.

At Durham Cathedral we were able to purchase candles to lay on the tomb of St Cuthbert and venerate there as Orthodox believers. St Bede is also there and we knelt and prayed at his sarcophagus. No one turned a head.
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2011, 09:26:32 PM »

From the BBC article:
Quote

The ban on the monarch being married to a Roman Catholic was also lifted.

Interesting. I wonder if that would mean anything for HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, who was, prior to his marriage to the Queen, the Prince of Greece and Denmark and from what accounts I've heard a fairly pious Orthodox Christian? Of course, he was made to convert to Anglicanism.

The change in the law will not be retrospective. It will only apply to heirs to the throne not yet born. So, even if, say, Princess Anne was older than Prince Charles, the change in the law would make no difference to her position. Prince Philip, as Queen's Consort, never had, and never could have, the right to rule in his own right, irrespective of what faith he subscribes to. And all who ascend to the throne, male or female, will still be obliged to profess the Anglican faith, as the reigning monarch is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. Disestablishing the Church of England requires separate legislation.
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2011, 09:48:09 PM »

From the BBC article:
Quote

The ban on the monarch being married to a Roman Catholic was also lifted.

Interesting. I wonder if that would mean anything for HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, who was, prior to his marriage to the Queen, the Prince of Greece and Denmark and from what accounts I've heard a fairly pious Orthodox Christian? Of course, he was made to convert to Anglicanism.

The change in the law will not be retrospective. It will only apply to heirs to the throne not yet born. So, even if, say, Princess Anne was older than Prince Charles, the change in the law would make no difference to her position. Prince Philip, as Queen's Consort, never had, and never could have, the right to rule in his own right, irrespective of what faith he subscribes to. And all who ascend to the throne, male or female, will still be obliged to profess the Anglican faith, as the reigning monarch is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. Disestablishing the Church of England requires separate legislation.

Of course HRH cannot rule, but I still had to wonder if this made it possible for him to return to Orthodoxy. It also makes sense that the heir to the throne must confess the English faith. Of course, as "Supreme Governor" of the CoE...is there really anything you can't do? I'm not big on the separation of Church and State, but the way England does it is so far beyond strange.
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2011, 09:56:13 PM »

Whether you like the monarchy or you're a hippie heathen commie, does anyone else think it's a tad odd when subjects try to call the shots regarding stuff like this?  I understand that it's not a new occurrence, but it's still strange to me.

"Yes, yes, you are royalty and are entitled to honor and these privileges, but we know what's best and will dictate protocol to you."

They should know that if they push too hard, the Knights of the Realm such as Elton John, in all of his Anglo-Saxon might, shall be released on them.

God Save The Queen.  

HM could refuse royal assent, but monarchs never do that anymore.

Everyone in public service—including the military—are sworn to the monarch personally, so I suppose the monarch still has personal control of the military and could technically do whatever she/he wanted. But rulers just can't do that sort of thing anymore. (Not this side of the Mediterranean, anyway.)
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2011, 10:01:12 PM »

Quote
Of course HRH cannot rule, but I still had to wonder if this made it possible for him to return to Orthodoxy.

This law would have no effect on his formal ability to change his professed faith. Perhaps the only way he could return to Orthodoxy is if the Queen dies before he does, and he is therefore no longer the consort to the Supreme Governor of the C of E, nor bound by the requirements of his marriage.
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2011, 10:02:43 PM »

Whether you like the monarchy or you're a hippie heathen commie, does anyone else think it's a tad odd when subjects try to call the shots regarding stuff like this?  I understand that it's not a new occurrence, but it's still strange to me.

"Yes, yes, you are royalty and are entitled to honor and these privileges, but we know what's best and will dictate protocol to you."

They should know that if they push too hard, the Knights of the Realm such as Elton John, in all of his Anglo-Saxon might, shall be released on them.

God Save The Queen.  

HM could refuse royal assent, but monarchs never do that anymore.

Everyone in public service—including the military—are sworn to the monarch personally, so I suppose the monarch still has personal control of the military and could technically do whatever she/he wanted. But rulers just can't do that sort of thing anymore. (Not this side of the Mediterranean, anyway.)

Sigh. You're depressing me, bogdanSad
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 10:13:10 PM »

Whether you like the monarchy or you're a hippie heathen commie, does anyone else think it's a tad odd when subjects try to call the shots regarding stuff like this?  I understand that it's not a new occurrence, but it's still strange to me.

"Yes, yes, you are royalty and are entitled to honor and these privileges, but we know what's best and will dictate protocol to you."

They should know that if they push too hard, the Knights of the Realm such as Elton John, in all of his Anglo-Saxon might, shall be released on them.

God Save The Queen.  

HM could refuse royal assent, but monarchs never do that anymore.

Everyone in public service—including the military—are sworn to the monarch personally, so I suppose the monarch still has personal control of the military and could technically do whatever she/he wanted. But rulers just can't do that sort of thing anymore. (Not this side of the Mediterranean, anyway.)

Sigh. You're depressing me, bogdanSad

Me too.   Sad
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 10:35:17 PM »

the monarchy is already an antiquated system. it has no tangible power, it stands only for its historic value. having said that, why do people want to modify it. old traditions are always better, especially if a system is kept for its novelty/historic value over its actual real-world benefit. i say keep it the way it is. but then again feminists will be jumping at my throat!
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 10:38:01 PM »

the monarchy is already an antiquated system. it has no tangible power, it stands only for its historic value. having said that, why do people want to modify it. old traditions are always better, especially if a system is kept for its novelty/historic value over its actual real-world benefit. i say keep it the way it is. but then again feminists will be jumping at my throat!

No comment.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 10:42:31 PM »

bad or good?
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 10:50:02 PM »

*paging Tallitot*

EDIT: Too bad he is shomer shabbos.
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 11:01:43 PM »

He don't roll on shabbos.
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2011, 11:07:52 PM »

From the BBC article:
Quote

The ban on the monarch being married to a Roman Catholic was also lifted.

Interesting. I wonder if that would mean anything for HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, who was, prior to his marriage to the Queen, the Prince of Greece and Denmark and from what accounts I've heard a fairly pious Orthodox Christian? Of course, he was made to convert to Anglicanism.

My understanding, from an Orthodox source, and not confirmed, is that HRH the Duke of Edinburgh quietly returned to Orthodoxy in the 1990s. I am not sure what exactly his current involvement in the Faith is.

Whether you like the monarchy or you're a hippie heathen commie, does anyone else think it's a tad odd when subjects try to call the shots regarding stuff like this?  I understand that it's not a new occurrence, but it's still strange to me.

"Yes, yes, you are royalty and are entitled to honor and these privileges, but we know what's best and will dictate protocol to you."

They should know that if they push too hard, the Knights of the Realm such as Elton John, in all of his Anglo-Saxon might, shall be released on them.

God Save The Queen.  

Agreed. HM the Queen is the only person in 16 realms told how Her Majesty's inheritance will be distributed.

About time, too!

I'm sure the politicians have more pressing matters to attend to than ending discrimination against people not even born yet. Meddling with the Constitution to score political points, I'm sure this will end well.

That's what I'd like to hear. I've heard several accounts that hint at HRH having a very pious Orthodox devotion, even to this very day. Perhaps this will pass on to his children? icons of Christ and the Theotokos did make an appearance at the latest royal wedding, after all...

HRH the Prince of Wales is known to have strong connections to Mount Athos, HRH the Duke of Cambridge and HRH Prince Harry have visited with him before. The Prince of Wales apparently also meets regularly with an Orthodox priest in Wales. When he married the Duchess of Cornwall, the Nicene Creed at their wedding was also without the Filioque.

HM could refuse royal assent, but monarchs never do that anymore.

Her Majesty has made it known that the move has her blessing.

the monarchy is already an antiquated system.

On the contrary, constitutional monarchy, for all it's faults, is the first modern system of government.

Quote
it has no tangible power,

Not true. The Crown has several reserve powers, to be used only in an emergency situation or constitutional crisis. In my province for example, legislation was denied Royal Assent several times in the 1930s--legislation which later was shown to be unconstitutional in nature.

Quote
it stands only for its historic value.

Although the monarchy has great historic value, it also provides other benefits as well.

In any case: "[A] king is a king, not because he is rich and powerful, not because he is a successful politician, not because he belongs to a particular creed or to a national group. He is King because he is born. And in choosing to leave the selection of their head of state to this most common denominator in the world--the accident of birth--Canadians implicitly proclaim their faith in human equality; their hope for the triumph of nature over political manoeuvre, over social and financial interest; for the victory of the human person." - Jacques Monet, Canadian historian.
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2011, 11:19:51 PM »

Quote
Not true. The Crown has several reserve powers, to be used only in an emergency situation or constitutional crisis. In my province for example, legislation was denied Royal Assent several times in the 1930s--legislation which later was shown to be unconstitutional in nature.

And the reserve powers were also invoked by the then Governor-General of Australia in the dismissal of the elected federal government in November, 1975.
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 11:25:34 PM »

In any case: "[A] king is a king, not because he is rich and powerful, not because he is a successful politician, not because he belongs to a particular creed or to a national group. He is King because he is born. And in choosing to leave the selection of their head of state to this most common denominator in the world--the accident of birth--Canadians implicitly proclaim their faith in human equality; their hope for the triumph of nature over political manoeuvre, over social and financial interest; for the victory of the human person." - Jacques Monet, Canadian historian.

 Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2011, 01:08:39 AM »

I'm not so sure that the British law really prohibited Prince Philip from being Orthodox, as he was not a Catholic.

Anyways, I am mildly disappointed in the people of Britain that they would elect people who kowtow to feminists so easily.  It honestly is a shame, and this is not sarcasm, it really isn't.
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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2011, 06:40:18 AM »

I'm not so sure that the British law really prohibited Prince Philip from being Orthodox, as he was not a Catholic.

Anyways, I am mildly disappointed in the people of Britain that they would elect people who kowtow to feminists so easily.  It honestly is a shame, and this is not sarcasm, it really isn't.

Have you seen our Prime Minister?
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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2011, 06:43:30 AM »

James, we don't have a choice. The whole political class is corrupted and they all essentially represent the same party.

Changing the succession in this way should be subject to the approval of the people, not at the decision of the Prime Minister.
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« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2011, 08:17:16 AM »

I'm not so sure that the British law really prohibited Prince Philip from being Orthodox, as he was not a Catholic.

You are correct. The sovereign's consort must not be Roman Catholic, or rather, in communion with the Pope in Rome. (We avoid the historical term around here Wink).

No one has ever shown me documentary evidence that HRH Prince Philip formally renounced Orthodoxy and/or formally joined himself to the Church of England. It is clear, of course, that he communes as an Anglican and has, therefore, excommunicated himself from the Church. In post-war Britain, there would have been plenty of social pressure for him to appear as British as possible.
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« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2011, 08:32:05 AM »

James, we don't have a choice. The whole political class is corrupted and they all essentially represent the same party.

Changing the succession in this way should be subject to the approval of the people, not at the decision of the Prime Minister.

Fr Peter: You might have missed the first reply to this thread.  Smiley

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« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2011, 08:36:20 AM »

MPs are not allowed to disagree with the Prime Minister, and all three parties have the same policies in any case.

We don't have a democracy here in England. We truly need an English Spring!
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« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2011, 08:59:01 AM »

What has "feminists" to do with this? 

Why would it be inherently "better" to have a younger boy inherit the throne instead of an older sister? 

(The imperial family in Japan having girls in the more recent generations has caused some consideration of changing the law so that there could be a reigning empress.  Mind you, there were a few in the past, though for much of history the emperors did not exercise much or any power there).
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« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2011, 09:02:32 AM »

What has "feminists" to do with this? 

Why would it be inherently "better" to have a younger boy inherit the throne instead of an older sister? 

(The imperial family in Japan having girls in the more recent generations has caused some consideration of changing the law so that there could be a reigning empress.  Mind you, there were a few in the past, though for much of history the emperors did not exercise much or any power there).


Well, we all know girls have cooties.  Wink Cheesy

And it's not like England has never had any notable results from its women leaders, such as Elizabeth I, Victoria, or that lady who's in charge now...  Grin
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« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2011, 09:05:21 AM »

What has "feminists" to do with this? 

Why would it be inherently "better" to have a younger boy inherit the throne instead of an older sister? 

(The imperial family in Japan having girls in the more recent generations has caused some consideration of changing the law so that there could be a reigning empress.  Mind you, there were a few in the past, though for much of history the emperors did not exercise much or any power there).


Well, we all know girls have cooties.  Wink Cheesy

And it's not like England has never had any notable results from its women leaders, such as Elizabeth I, Victoria, or that lady who's in charge now...  Grin

Oh, those feminists have a lot to answer for. People without the right genitalia simply shouldn't be monarchs. 
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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2011, 09:07:12 AM »

What has "feminists" to do with this? 

Why would it be inherently "better" to have a younger boy inherit the throne instead of an older sister? 

(The imperial family in Japan having girls in the more recent generations has caused some consideration of changing the law so that there could be a reigning empress.  Mind you, there were a few in the past, though for much of history the emperors did not exercise much or any power there).


Well, we all know girls have cooties.  Wink Cheesy

And it's not like England has never had any notable results from its women leaders, such as Elizabeth I, Victoria, or that lady who's in charge now...  Grin


 Cheesy Grin  Thanks for the laugh.   I think that we had a cure for that though.  Wink

And yes, I agree that there have been some very notable and capable women rulers.  

I seem to recall  some situations where male heirs to thrones were, shall we say, regrettable.

 
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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2011, 09:08:48 AM »

What has "feminists" to do with this? 

Why would it be inherently "better" to have a younger boy inherit the throne instead of an older sister? 

(The imperial family in Japan having girls in the more recent generations has caused some consideration of changing the law so that there could be a reigning empress.  Mind you, there were a few in the past, though for much of history the emperors did not exercise much or any power there).


Well, we all know girls have cooties.  Wink Cheesy

And it's not like England has never had any notable results from its women leaders, such as Elizabeth I, Victoria, or that lady who's in charge now...  Grin

Oh, those feminists have a lot to answer for. People without the right genitalia simply shouldn't be monarchs. 

Lol!  the question of which are the "right" sort though.....  Wink  (trying to be polite here)
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« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2011, 09:12:36 AM »

What has "feminists" to do with this? 

Why would it be inherently "better" to have a younger boy inherit the throne instead of an older sister? 

(The imperial family in Japan having girls in the more recent generations has caused some consideration of changing the law so that there could be a reigning empress.  Mind you, there were a few in the past, though for much of history the emperors did not exercise much or any power there).


Well, we all know girls have cooties.  Wink Cheesy

And it's not like England has never had any notable results from its women leaders, such as Elizabeth I, Victoria, or that lady who's in charge now...  Grin

Oh, those feminists have a lot to answer for. People without the right genitalia simply shouldn't be monarchs. 

Lol!  the question of which are the "right" sort though.....  Wink  (trying to be polite here)

Clearly the male sort are those that are required. Wink Blinking feminists trying to have us accept the first born female royal child when it obviously doesn't qualify. Whatever will they think of next?
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« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2011, 09:22:08 AM »

What has "feminists" to do with this? 

Why would it be inherently "better" to have a younger boy inherit the throne instead of an older sister? 

(The imperial family in Japan having girls in the more recent generations has caused some consideration of changing the law so that there could be a reigning empress.  Mind you, there were a few in the past, though for much of history the emperors did not exercise much or any power there).


Well, we all know girls have cooties.  Wink Cheesy

And it's not like England has never had any notable results from its women leaders, such as Elizabeth I, Victoria, or that lady who's in charge now...  Grin

Oh, those feminists have a lot to answer for. People without the right genitalia simply shouldn't be monarchs. 

Lol!  the question of which are the "right" sort though.....  Wink  (trying to be polite here)

Clearly the male sort are those that are required. Wink Blinking feminists trying to have us accept the first born female royal child when it obviously doesn't qualify. Whatever will they think of next?

Well that's what some people seem to think, it's true.  Some kind of "royal resource" erm  "regal center"  umm location of the "ruling brain"  aaaggghh

Still trying to be careful about language here while thinking that an idea that being an XY is required for proper ruling is a load of dingoes kidneys...

 Wink
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« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2011, 09:23:37 AM »

Well, men do bring something to the monarchy that women never will: mustaches.

There! That settles it.
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« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2011, 09:28:50 AM »

It is clear, of course, that he communes as an Anglican and has, therefore, excommunicated himself from the Church.
I wonder if/when he was last seen doing that.
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« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2011, 09:36:23 AM »

Well, men do bring something to the monarchy that women never will: mustaches.

There! That settles it.

 Cheesy Cheesy  Ooooh.. now it's mustaches that do the ruling..

   But what about all of those clean shaven emperors and kings and all?Huh

(and not to be too clinical, but some women have been known to have facial hair)....
  
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 09:40:28 AM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2011, 09:40:32 AM »

You may have it. Quick, call Parliament.  Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2011, 11:23:20 PM »

Why would it be inherently "better" to have a younger boy inherit the throne instead of an older sister? 

It's not so much that male-preference cognatic primogeniture is inherently better than absolute primogeniture. The issue is that politicians are meddling with tradition in order to make political points and satisfy modern perceptions of equality and political correctness.

Of course, it is also a slippery slope. As I pointed out when I commented on this issue on my Facebook, "If we concede that sons should not be chosen over daughters, why should older be chosen over the younger?? Why not wait until the King dies, and simply let Parliament vote one of his children as monarch?? In that case, why restrict it to one family, why not let anyone stand for the post?? (This is what the United States does with their elected monarchy)."

The bottom line is that monarchy is discriminatory by it's very nature. Anything short of elected monarchy (even elected monarchies tended towards a small group of potential candidates) will limit the throne to one family and a small number of individuals. Allowing the monarch to marry a Catholic or ascend the throne ahead of her younger brothers won't change that.
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« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2011, 12:25:36 AM »

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doesn't this thread belong in "politics"?
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« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2011, 12:49:32 AM »

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doesn't this thread belong in "politics"?
No. Why do you ask that question here?
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« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2011, 12:50:31 AM »

Well, men do bring something to the monarchy that women never will: mustaches.

Bingo. 

This guy makes it to the throne and no First World War, no WWII, no Russian Revolution, no Vietnam, no Michael Bay, the director of many horrible movies, no Dancing with the Stars, etc.

Instead, mustaches got smaller, as evidenced by his assassin:


Then we all know what happened when they got really narrow, Charlie Chaplin style... //:=(

Then cholera and starvation accompanied really really narrow mustaches, as demonstrated by his lousiness Mugabs (my nickname for him)


Now?  Few significant mustaches remain (hipsters aside) and things are lousy.  Coincidence?
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