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Author Topic: Receiving the Holy Spirit?  (Read 2743 times) Average Rating: 0
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JenniferF
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« on: October 28, 2011, 04:15:07 PM »

I was raised Southern Baptist and was saved and baptized as a child.  I was taught that you receive the Holy Spirit when you are "saved"/"born again".  I do feel like I received the Holy Spirit then...because I felt such an amazing peace and comfort in my heart and soul.  I have been inquiring into Orthodoxy for a few months now.  I have been meeting with the priest, reading books he has recommended and started a class at my parish.  I have been reading posts on this board for a month or so, as well.  I have tried searching for an answer to this question however...I haven't come across it.  So, if this has been asked before please link me to the answers...

If you were or felt like you had been "saved" before and received the Holy Spirit and you converted to Orthodox, did you feel it again or did you feel any differently after you were Chrismated?  Also, if you are a cradle Orthodox have you just always felt the Holy Spirit with you since you were a baby?

Maybe, with my background I am basing too much off of a "feeling".  But it has been very real to me and I wanted to know what the experience has been for those who have converted as well as cradle Orthodox.   

I don't know if I was even able to communicate my question adequately or not...? 
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 04:27:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I was raised Southern Baptist and was saved and baptized as a child.  I was taught that you receive the Holy Spirit when you are "saved"/"born again".  I do feel like I received the Holy Spirit then...because I felt such an amazing peace and comfort in my heart and soul.  I have been inquiring into Orthodoxy for a few months now.  I have been meeting with the priest, reading books he has recommended and started a class at my parish.  I have been reading posts on this board for a month or so, as well.  I have tried searching for an answer to this question however...I haven't come across it.  So, if this has been asked before please link me to the answers...

If you were or felt like you had been "saved" before and received the Holy Spirit and you converted to Orthodox, did you feel it again or did you feel any differently after you were Chrismated?  Also, if you are a cradle Orthodox have you just always felt the Holy Spirit with you since you were a baby?

Maybe, with my background I am basing too much off of a "feeling".  But it has been very real to me and I wanted to know what the experience has been for those who have converted as well as cradle Orthodox.   

I don't know if I was even able to communicate my question adequately or not...? 

You have to distinguish what we mean by receiving "the Holy Spirit" and experiencing the Holy Spirit.  We know that the Holy Spirit spoke in the Prophets, even before the Incarnation.  We see many examples, both in the Old and New Testaments, of folks acting in the Holy Spirit before having been baptized.  Yet, the Church has a specific teaching regarding receiving the Holy Spirit at Baptism, which is equally Scriptural (Acts 19:1-7).

So we distinguish between acting in the Holy Spirit, and receiving the fullness of the Holy Spirit.  Those who prophecy, or "feel the Spirit" before having been baptized in the Orthodox and Chrismated by the laying of hands of the Priest as Paul demonstrates in Acts 19, are not yet saved by the Holy Spirit.  They are merely acting according to the influence of the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit has not transformed them away from Sin torwards Salvation through Grace.  The Grace we receive from the Holy Spirit is ONLY received after Orthodox baptism and Christ mation, all other examples of the Holy Spirit are glimpses, but not the fullness.  Further, being saved is not a single event, but a continuous process.  So we do not "feel" saved as much as we becoming saved continually.  This is the Healing of our fractured human nature which the Fathers speak of/  The Holy Spirit is sent to those Baptized members in a kind of permanent state of Grace, whereas those not baptized receive the Spirit on a temporary basis.


By the way, the first step towards Orthodox Conversion is to admit, confess, and acknowledge that prior to Orthodox, there is no being saved, and that until we come to Orthodox we are not saved regardless of how much we feel.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 04:49:30 PM »

Thank you for your quick response to my question.  It seems like my journey to Orthodoxy is one minute going right along and then I hit a mental "road block".  Usually, something that I have grown up being told was wrong my whole life.  Or after talking to my mother.  She isn't particularly happy about me exploring Orthodoxy.  We have only discussed it twice.  But both times after I get off the phone with her, I feel exhausted and start second guessing myself and having a lot of self doubt.  I am lucky to have my DH's support and he is fortunately on this journey with me, with less "road blocks" than what I have...but I think that is because we grew up differently.  Our priest said in some ways it is easier for my DH because he is starting with a clean slate.  I, on the other hand have a lot scribbled on mine (those were my words and not his). Smiley

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



You have to distinguish what we mean by receiving "the Holy Spirit" and experiencing the Holy Spirit.  We know that the Holy Spirit spoke in the Prophets, even before the Incarnation.  We see many examples, both in the Old and New Testaments, of folks acting in the Holy Spirit before having been baptized.  Yet, the Church has a specific teaching regarding receiving the Holy Spirit at Baptism, which is equally Scriptural (Acts 19:1-7).

So we distinguish between acting in the Holy Spirit, and receiving the fullness of the Holy Spirit.  Those who prophecy, or "feel the Spirit" before having been baptized in the Orthodox and Chrismated by the laying of hands of the Priest as Paul demonstrates in Acts 19, are not yet saved by the Holy Spirit.  They are merely acting according to the influence of the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit has not transformed them away from Sin torwards Salvation through Grace.  The Grace we receive from the Holy Spirit is ONLY received after Orthodox baptism and Christ mation, all other examples of the Holy Spirit are glimpses, but not the fullness.  Further, being saved is not a single event, but a continuous process.  So we do not "feel" saved as much as we becoming saved continually.  This is the Healing of our fractured human nature which the Fathers speak of/  The Holy Spirit is sent to those Baptized members in a kind of permanent state of Grace, whereas those not baptized receive the Spirit on a temporary basis.


By the way, the first step towards Orthodox Conversion is to admit, confess, and acknowledge that prior to Orthodox, there is no being saved, and that until we come to Orthodox we are not saved regardless of how much we feel.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 05:19:43 PM »

Welcome to the forum, Jennifer! May God grant you wisdom as you learn of His Holy Church!

HabteSelassie frames this situation very well. I have to agree with all he has said.

I, too, was originally a Baptist. I responded to an altar call at the age of eight in my Missionary Baptist (that's outside the SBC Wink) church in Southeastern Kentucky. I was baptized the very next Sunday. The altar call was particularly impressionable on me. I had spoke to the preacher the Sunday before about how to accept Jesus, and he instructed me to respond to the altar call next Sunday. I did so, and knelt at the step in front of the platform at the front of the church (of course, this is what the Baptists call an "altar"). I prayed in my own lil' eight-year-old heart, and felt the hands of the preacher on me as I did so. Many other church elders also laid their hands on me. I remember crying. It was a very emotional experience for me, and I do believe I experienced the Holy Spirit at that moment for the first time. the baptism I received the next Sunday was also very important to me.

I wondered around various Protestant denominations once I got older, looking for the truth. Immediately before I made the jump into Orthodoxy I was a Presbyterian who had strong leanings towards Anglo-Catholicism. Not nearly as emotionally-driven as that original Baptist upbringing. That said, when I converted to Orthodoxy, I was baptized and chrismated. I had a very similar feeling at that time to when I was eight, but it wasn't exactly the same. I didn't shed a tear, and didn't stay or even think much of anything. The biggest impressions left on me is how joyfully I recited the Nicene Creed, knowing I was finally confessing the True Orthodox Faith of the One Holy Catholic Church. I remember also how I felt quite disoriented after the triple-immersion baptism, even though I tried to brace myself for it. I remember particularly how, after my head raised up the final time, the first thing I recognized was a brightly-lit yet very blurry altar table, far away (me being in the Narthex, and it being the Holy Table) but complete with the golden candlestand, fans, tabernacle, etc. The first image imprinted on the eyes of a new-born Christian. I remember, also, feeling unworthily accepted and honored as the priest anointed me with the chrism. I could do nothing but stand there and receive the grace of God as the priest announced each time, "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit" the people joyously responding, "Amen!" It was quite surreal. I still have the same surreal feelings sometimes at the Liturgy. Sometimes I do still catch a tear running down my face, and I've cried at every Pascha.

Again, let me frame for you that I had quite out-right rejected the emotionalism of by background by the time I stumbled upon Orthodoxy. Yet, I can be emotional at times at these very Liturgical services. And, you're right, it's not about emotion. It's true whether we happen to feel it or not. I can go to a Liturgy and know God is there and be so keenly aware that I partake of the Body and Blood of my Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ...other times not so much, I just go, partake, etc. like it's no big deal. It happens, and that's perfectly okay.

Also, I do believe I've been some kind of Christian since I was eight. Was I saved? Well, that's not really the right question. The Orthodox understand that salvation is a process, unlike the baptists who tend to view it as a one-time decision. I am saved, am being saved and (Lord, have mercy) will be saved. That's all I can say. However, I do believe there was a certain Christ-likeness to how I wanted to live my life (no matter how miserably I fail at it to this day). However, becoming Orthodox meant coming into the fullness of what it means to be Christian. It meant being truly Catholic (which is a Greek word simply meaning "according to the whole" meaning, "not lacking in any single thing, complete"). My faith before was incomplete. Now, it is complete. I just have to live in it. Wink

Also, I've heard different stories about how converts feel after their baptism. Some do seem to experience a lightening, a relief. This was the case for me. Others feel no different. Yet others feel persecution tighten...things get worse. All sorts of things happen after baptism. None of them, nor lack of any of them, mean anything.

Sorry this post is so long, but I hope my story and what I've shared is helpful to you. May our Lord Jesus Christ continue to guide you on your journey. Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 05:20:42 PM »

i understand the question.
one day, one my journey from protestantism, a comment from a coptic orthodox bishop made me understand things better.
he said the orthodox church did not need any 'spiritual renewal' or 'rediscovery of the Holy Spirit' as they had never 'lost' the understanding of the Holy Spirit like the european protestants did (their minds were blinded in the 'renaissance' and intellectualism of the 17th to 20th centuries).

it seems my previous experiences were part 'feeling the spirit' as habteSelassie describes and part emotionalism.
it was only when i took my first orthodox communion about 3 years ago, that i realised i had always been missing something much deeper.
nearly every ex-protestant i speak to describes the same 'fullness', 'depth' and beauty than we did not find before we joined the orthodox church.
definitely, God works in all His churches, but i have seen people experiencing this fullness and peace on a deeper level in the orthodox church.

may God bless your journey and guide you as you dedicate all of your life to Him.
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 05:23:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Thank you for your quick response to my question.  It seems like my journey to Orthodoxy is one minute going right along and then I hit a mental "road block".  Usually, something that I have grown up being told was wrong my whole life.  Or after talking to my mother.  She isn't particularly happy about me exploring Orthodoxy. 
That is because y'all are Baptists, and Baptist are such virulent Protestants that they deny even being Protestants, instead alluding to some kind of pseudo-lineage which is said to predate the Protesant reformation and even Church! This is of course and ideological misinterpretation of the facts of history, as the Church has always existed since the first century, and this a matter of archaeological and historical fact. 

Those Baptists who deny the legitimacy of the Church are shadow boxing against their own constructed Straw Man fallacies.  My mother is like yours, she was just talking about this pseudo-history she like many other Baptists believe just last night.  I can't hardly convince her the facts of history, she has her blinders on.  Most other Baptists I speak with are in a similar position.  It has become an article of Faith for Baptists to reject the Church across history, so this is an understandable misunderstanding.

The truth is that all you were told about the Church growing up probably isn't true at all, I know I was raised indoctrinated in these misunderstandins as if they were the Gospel truth.  So in this regard, go with the Spirit and not your gut.  All of us in Orthodox are wrong as you may be, and we are all learning and growing in our relationship with jesus Christ day by day.  Just keep praying and attending Divine Liturgy and God will unveal His Mysteries to you in is time Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 05:24:47 PM »

i typed before benjamin posted, but there it is again, the fullness.
understanding that salvation is a process also makes everything else much clearer.
may you also have the fullness soon!
 Smiley

habteSelassie, i also didn't realise i was protestant until i was nearly orthodox!
 Wink
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 06:31:12 PM »

The Gift of the Holy Spirit is the Mystery of Chrismation. In the New Testament, reception of the Holy Spirit was distinct from both conversion and baptism. It was a separate event which followed the apostolic "laying on of hands."

This comes down to us today in the rite of sacramental Chrismation (or Confirmation, when the Spirit confirms you, not when you "confirm your faith").
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 09:21:57 PM »

The truth is that all you were told about the Church growing up probably isn't true at all,

I agree. Every major difference that I can see between Orthodoxy and Protestantism is ultimately rooted in how we see the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ.

Anyway, to the OP, we don't do "altar calls" in Orthodoxy (actually in the Baptist church in which I was baptized, I said the prayer at home and came to sunday school telling the teacher what I had done and asked to be baptized and was the next week) because we are made Christians by virtue of Christ and being baptized into His death and resurrection and grafted into Him and His Church as His Body. Anyway the Baptist teaching on what makes one a Christian is purely a personal experience independent of the Church (as I experienced it in a Baptist church anyway) where it is personal in Orthodoxy, but not to the exclusion of or independent from the Church as a Body.
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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 10:30:25 PM »

During the anointing with Holy Chrism in the Sacrament of Chrismation (Confirmation), the celebrant says "The Seal and Gift of the Holy Spirit." While I may not be saying it properly theologically. I recall reading somewhere that the sacrament is believed to activate whatever was incomplete at baptism; incomplete being that the baptism administered outside the Orthodox Church is not within the fullness of the Faith.  Please forgive me, I know I didn't say this as it should have been properly stated, but I hope this captures the essence of the matter of the church's thinking (at least in the West) about Trinitarian baptisms outside of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2011, 09:34:28 AM »

I was born into a Pentecostal family and I "walked the aisle" to be baptized at the Baptist church after my parents stopped attending the Pentecostal church regularly. Having experienced the emotional Pentecostal services, the structured Baptist services, and various Protestant denominations as an adult, it seems that the common thread among the Protestants is that one needs to be converted to receive the Holy Spirit. Having held my faith in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit since I could remember, I kept waiting for the conversion even after baptism. I felt very confused until I arrived at Orthodoxy which holds true to the beliefs that I had formed over the years. I am sure this all sounds like gibberish to others as it is hard to explain. When I found Orthodoxy, it is as if a veil was lifted from my eyes. The previous emotional highs of the charismatic services or the "uplifting" hymns do not compare to the Divine Liturgy or the Communion that I now enjoy.
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2011, 10:15:03 AM »

I replied last night...but it seems my post disappeared or actually never appeared...  Huh

Anyways, I want to thank all of you for sharing your stories/background with me.  I really appreciate it because it has helped to answer my question.  I do believe the Orthodox Church has the fullness of the faith.  It seems as I draw closer on my journey, I still some times get in my own way because of my "old indoctrination", I guess you would call it.  Wink   

Thank you again!

Sincerely,
Jennifer
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2011, 04:04:21 PM »

Good to hear. Keep up with it.  Grin angel
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2011, 12:57:19 PM »

The truth is that all you were told about the Church growing up probably isn't true at all,

I agree. Every major difference that I can see between Orthodoxy and Protestantism is ultimately rooted in how we see the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ.

Anyway, to the OP, we don't do "altar calls" in Orthodoxy (actually in the Baptist church in which I was baptized, I said the prayer at home and came to sunday school telling the teacher what I had done and asked to be baptized and was the next week) because we are made Christians by virtue of Christ and being baptized into His death and resurrection and grafted into Him and His Church as His Body. Anyway the Baptist teaching on what makes one a Christian is purely a personal experience independent of the Church (as I experienced it in a Baptist church anyway) where it is personal in Orthodoxy, but not to the exclusion of or independent from the Church as a Body.

Did your baptism count when you converted to Orthodoxy?

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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2011, 02:33:59 PM »

Our priest relayed a story from our bishop which said something to the effect that when we are received by chrismation into the church (after having been baptized by another Christian body), it completes our baptism. Of course, some parishes will rebaptize you, regardless of whether you had a previous Trinitarian baptism or not. In my situation though I was received by Chrismation, after having been baptized in the SBC around 8 or so.

He says that if we come from another Christian faith background, we should be thankful for it because it has paved the way for us to enter into Orthodoxy. Its not as if you come into Orthodoxy as a "0 level Christian". We all encounter and come to Orthodoxy with different backgrounds and different levels of dedication and spiritual maturity.
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 08:14:52 PM »

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2011, 08:28:34 PM »

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but we certainly practice baptism by triple immersion of the whole body into water -- preferably living water, but still water will suffice. The candidate is baptised "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

The only exception to this I've witnessed is where the candidate is immersed three times up to the face or neck, water being splashed over the hair/head each time. The baptismal formula is the same.

I imagine the situation might be different in extremis, but the situation I have described above is certainly normative.
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2011, 08:56:20 PM »

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

We do, unless by full-body baptism you don't mean a baptism where you are in a body of water and you are fully immersed (including your head).
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2011, 09:20:00 PM »

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

We do, unless by full-body baptism you don't mean a baptism where you are in a body of water and you are fully immersed (including your head).

From what I've read, this is still the preferred practice in Orthodoxy: the baptismal font is considered a second best.
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2011, 05:45:09 AM »

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but we certainly practice baptism by triple immersion of the whole body into water -- preferably living water, but still water will suffice. The candidate is baptised "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

The only exception to this I've witnessed is where the candidate is immersed three times up to the face or neck, water being splashed over the hair/head each time. The baptismal formula is the same.

I imagine the situation might be different in extremis, but the situation I have described above is certainly normative.

Mine was in an underground tank in a charismatic church. The part i worried about was that the person who baptised me had a cold at the time so i got baptised in the name of the Father, Sut and Holy Spirit, then i was given the bret and wite. I don't think anyone else worried about it but it really bothered me at the time.
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2011, 05:46:35 AM »

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

We do, unless by full-body baptism you don't mean a baptism where you are in a body of water and you are fully immersed (including your head).
Yes i do mean fully immersed, i should have said that, sorry.
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2011, 05:51:22 AM »

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

We do, unless by full-body baptism you don't mean a baptism where you are in a body of water and you are fully immersed (including your head).

From what I've read, this is still the preferred practice in Orthodoxy: the baptismal font is considered a second best.

When I converted, I was baptized by triple immersion. My entire body went under the water.

I had previously received a trinitarian baptism from the Missionary Baptists, which as by immersion.
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2011, 11:28:47 AM »

All the Orthodox baptisms that I have seen were triple immersion - the whole body. Situations may vary according to facilities (one person I knew was baptized in a Rubbermaid horse trough!) or to individual circumstances. But triple immersion is the standard.
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2011, 01:25:07 PM »

The truth is that all you were told about the Church growing up probably isn't true at all,
I agree. Every major difference that I can see between Orthodoxy and Protestantism is ultimately rooted in how we see the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ.

Anyway, to the OP, we don't do "altar calls" in Orthodoxy (actually in the Baptist church in which I was baptized, I said the prayer at home and came to sunday school telling the teacher what I had done and asked to be baptized and was the next week) because we are made Christians by virtue of Christ and being baptized into His death and resurrection and grafted into Him and His Church as His Body. Anyway the Baptist teaching on what makes one a Christian is purely a personal experience independent of the Church (as I experienced it in a Baptist church anyway) where it is personal in Orthodoxy, but not to the exclusion of or independent from the Church as a Body.
Did your baptism count when you converted to Orthodoxy?

I was received by chrismation.
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2011, 01:28:08 PM »

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that?

I've seen infants fully immersed (triple immersion) for their baptism, never seen an adult baptism, but wouldn't expect it to be too much different.

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I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

John didn't perform Christian baptisms.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2011, 02:15:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

Where is your evidence for this exact baptism?

See, if you examine correctly, you'll find that outside of Church history and tradition, there is no real evidence suggesting exactly HOW Jesus Christ was baptized.  It is CHURCH CANON and CHURCH LAW and CHURCH HISTORY which transmits and maintains triple immersion baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  The Church is the one who made the interpretation to conclude that Jesus Christ was fully immersed, so if you are yourself basing your criticism against the Church's instituting of "sprinkling" baptism as opposed to the "dunking" of the the Protestant traditions, you are using OUR evidence to support your own assertions while then using your assertions to attack the Church? How can you attack the Church using the Church?

If you'd like to know why "sprinkling" has been accepted,  in the Catholic Church it has become almost the norm, however, in the Orthodox in regards to infants we triple immerse, or even dunk.  I just witnessed two baptisms last weekend, and I've attended approximately a hundred baptisms, and all the infants were fully, triple, immersed.  This is the Ethiopian tradition and norm, and it is in the Ethiopian Canon and Church Law.  However, in certain instances, exceptions are made and sprinkling is acceptable in our Tewahedo Tradition when there may be no way to fully immerse, such as for adult converts as we often don't have full-sized baptismal founts, the Grace present within the Mystery is enough.

 Essentially, we argue similar to the a Catholic apology.  The Grace of God is not by measure, so if the Baptismal waters have been properly consecrated by a proper priest invested by a Bishop with the authority to baptize and he has chanted the appropriate liturgical prayers, then even a SINGLE drop of these waters can effect this operative, salvific Grace.  We are reborn not by a certain measurement of water, but by God's Grace literally present in all the Seven Divine Mysteries. 

Did your baptism count when you converted to Orthodoxy?

Quote
Acts 19

Paul in Ephesus

 1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
   They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

   “John’s baptism,” they replied.

 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7

John's baptism is the baptism of holy men of God, of repentance, it is a symbol.  It is the baptism of the Baptists and Protestants.  Ironically, these were the ones who taught baptizing again, and yet when folks convert to Orthodox they must come to understand that the baptism they received outside the Church was not consecrated, it was merely a symbol.  This is the baptism of John, which folks received.  The Orthodox is the Baptism of Jesus Christ.  This is why Paul baptized again these Ephesians, because he himself was an Orthodox priest with the true, valid, holy Baptism of the Church.  Sometimes the Church recognizes the Baptisms from Anglicans and Lutherans, Mystery Protestants, but the symbolic baptisms of the Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and particularly those vitriolically anti-Church Baptisms are supposed to be rejected as not Orthodox, or simply as the repentant lower-case baptism of John.



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2011, 08:58:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

so if you are yourself basing your criticism against the Church's instituting of "sprinkling" baptism as opposed to the "dunking" of the the Protestant traditions, you are using OUR evidence to support your own assertions while then using your assertions to attack the Church? How can you attack the Church using the Church?


Habte please calm down. It wasn't an "attack", just a siimple question. Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist in the river and i hadn't realised the Orthodox Church performs fully body Baptisms.

That's all that needed to be said. I don't have any assertations on this topic i was just asking.

I think you're reading into my posts much more than they actually contain.
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2011, 10:43:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

so if you are yourself basing your criticism against the Church's instituting of "sprinkling" baptism as opposed to the "dunking" of the the Protestant traditions, you are using OUR evidence to support your own assertions while then using your assertions to attack the Church? How can you attack the Church using the Church?


Habte please calm down. It wasn't an "attack", just a siimple question. Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist in the river and i hadn't realised the Orthodox Church performs fully body Baptisms.

That's all that needed to be said. I don't have any assertations on this topic i was just asking.

I think you're reading into my posts much more than they actually contain.

I agree with you here, but Habte does raise an interesting point about our knowledge of the manner of the Lord's baptism only being known by tradition.
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2011, 03:55:35 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

From what i've read you don't practise full body baptism. Can someone tell me why the Church decided against that? I would have thought you'd have done it exactly like Jesus was baptised by John.

so if you are yourself basing your criticism against the Church's instituting of "sprinkling" baptism as opposed to the "dunking" of the the Protestant traditions, you are using OUR evidence to support your own assertions while then using your assertions to attack the Church? How can you attack the Church using the Church?


Habte please calm down. It wasn't an "attack", just a siimple question. Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist in the river and i hadn't realised the Orthodox Church performs fully body Baptisms.

That's all that needed to be said. I don't have any assertations on this topic i was just asking.

I think you're reading into my posts much more than they actually contain.

I agree with you here, but Habte does raise an interesting point about our knowledge of the manner of the Lord's baptism only being known by tradition.

No doubt.
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2011, 06:02:53 AM »

All the Orthodox baptisms that I have seen were triple immersion - the whole body. Situations may vary according to facilities (one person I knew was baptized in a Rubbermaid horse trough!) or to individual circumstances. But triple immersion is the standard.

I was baptized in a Rubbermaid horse trough! At least I think it was Rubbermaid. Our parish might not've splurged for a name brand trough. Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2011, 01:26:43 PM »

According to St. Seraphim, the continual acquisition of the Holy Spirit is the aim of the Christian life:
Quote
"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life. That is why our Lord Jesus Christ said: "He who does not gather with Me scatters" (Luke 11:23). Not that a good deed can be called anything but gathering, even though a deed is not done for Christ's sake, it is still considered good. The Scriptures say: "In every nation he who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to Him" (Acts 10:35).

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm
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