Author Topic: RSV w/ apocrypha?  (Read 8754 times)

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Offline Timon

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RSV w/ apocrypha?
« on: October 27, 2011, 10:31:46 PM »
OK, so how come there arent more people who print these things??  I know of the popular Oxford Annotated one with the red cover, but I want a smaller one without all the notes. And someone mentioned this one.... (which I am probably about to order) http://www.amazon.com/Revised-Standard-Version-Bible-Apocrypha/dp/0195288084/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319768793&sr=8-1

Before I did, I just wanted to see if anyone knew of anyone who printed a nicer looking, leather version.  And of course I know that it isnt the cover that matters, but rather the contents.  So please spare me those comments! :) I just prefer something other than a hardcover, or paper one if possible.  Im just trying to get a good translation thats a little on the medium/small side.  I hear this translation is the way to go.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2011, 10:41:42 PM »
The notes aren't even that detailed though. They sell a leather version of the Oxford Annotated, I still think it's the best Bible to own.

I don't know of another printer that does the RSV and includes the entire Apocrypha. Only the RSV-CE goes to 2 Maccabees if I recall, and that's a really nice version, practically no notes.
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Offline jewish voice

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2011, 10:48:40 PM »
I have this one only mine is tan http://www.amazon.com/NRSV-Apocrypha-burgundy-Harper-Bibles/dp/0061946524/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319769938&sr=1-3 It has all the apocrypha books that the church says are ok to read. I don't care for it cause there all in one section not like the OSB has them in with the other books but I do like it over the others
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 10:50:04 PM by jewish voice »

Offline Shiny

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2011, 10:51:10 PM »
Avoid the NRSV at all costs.
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Offline TheodoraElizabeth3

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2011, 11:15:39 PM »
OK, so how come there arent more people who print these things??  I know of the popular Oxford Annotated one with the red cover, but I want a smaller one without all the notes. And someone mentioned this one.... (which I am probably about to order) http://www.amazon.com/Revised-Standard-Version-Bible-Apocrypha/dp/0195288084/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319768793&sr=8-1

Before I did, I just wanted to see if anyone knew of anyone who printed a nicer looking, leather version.  And of course I know that it isnt the cover that matters, but rather the contents.  So please spare me those comments! :) I just prefer something other than a hardcover, or paper one if possible.  Im just trying to get a good translation thats a little on the medium/small side.  I hear this translation is the way to go.

As I said in my other post, the text-only (no study notes) of the RSV w/Apocrypha was only a special thing for the 50th anniversary of the RSV in 2002. When I got my leather-bound one in 2006, it was already on "clearance." The NRSV has pretty much superseded the RSV. You want to stay away from the NRSV at all costs (inclusive language that totally destroys the Christology, etc.). The Oxford RSV Study Bible is the ONLY available version of the original RSV today. Period. There's the Catholic RSV, which is decent enough, but I prefer the original RSV.

The NCC which holds the copyright to the RSV wishes it would go away, I've heard.

If you have an iPad or a smart phone, you can get the RSV with Apocrypha through the Bible Reader app (www.olivetree.com) for about $15. No study notes, just the Biblical text. I read it more from this format, actually.

Offline Timon

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2011, 11:19:58 PM »
OK, so how come there arent more people who print these things??  I know of the popular Oxford Annotated one with the red cover, but I want a smaller one without all the notes. And someone mentioned this one.... (which I am probably about to order) http://www.amazon.com/Revised-Standard-Version-Bible-Apocrypha/dp/0195288084/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319768793&sr=8-1

Before I did, I just wanted to see if anyone knew of anyone who printed a nicer looking, leather version.  And of course I know that it isnt the cover that matters, but rather the contents.  So please spare me those comments! :) I just prefer something other than a hardcover, or paper one if possible.  Im just trying to get a good translation thats a little on the medium/small side.  I hear this translation is the way to go.

As I said in my other post, the text-only (no study notes) of the RSV w/Apocrypha was only a special thing for the 50th anniversary of the RSV in 2002. When I got my leather-bound one in 2006, it was already on "clearance." The NRSV has pretty much superseded the RSV. You want to stay away from the NRSV at all costs (inclusive language that totally destroys the Christology, etc.). The Oxford RSV Study Bible is the ONLY available version of the original RSV today. Period. There's the Catholic RSV, which is decent enough, but I prefer the original RSV.

The NCC which holds the copyright to the RSV wishes it would go away, I've heard.

If you have an iPad or a smart phone, you can get the RSV with Apocrypha through the Bible Reader app (www.olivetree.com) for about $15. No study notes, just the Biblical text. I read it more from this format, actually.

Thanks again for the input!  And I wasnt trying to ignore or brush aside what you said the first time.  I really am about to order one of those.  Just figured I'd double check and see if anyone knew of any smaller publishing company or something that also printed them!
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Offline Shiny

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2011, 11:20:46 PM »
Oxford has an ESV w/ Apocrypha too, not a bad translation either.
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Offline Timon

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 12:01:13 AM »
Oxford has an ESV w/ Apocrypha too, not a bad translation either.

Yea I thought about getting one of those too.  The anglican church I go to sometimes sells those for pretty cheap. (Remember, Im not Orthodox yet, so I still go to Anglican churches sometimes!) I have an ESV and really like it.  In fact, its usually my go-to bible.  All my bibles (except my OSB) are from my protestant days, so none of them have the apocrypha.
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 05:04:37 AM »
There's the Catholic RSV, which is decent enough, but I prefer the original RSV.

Hmm. What are the differences between the original RSV and its Catholic counterpart? I've been referred a few times to the Oxford Annotated RSV and I've thought about getting it, but I also don't own any Catholic Bibles, and feel like I should for some reason.

Oxford has an ESV w/ Apocrypha too, not a bad translation either.

ESV? Interesting. That's a Reformed translation, IIRC. I've liked what I've seen of it, but I've never owned one myself. My assumption is that it would impose a more Protestant reading of the text, as the NIV (one of my go-to translations as a Protestant, and to be avoided AT ALL COSTS) does in places.
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Offline biro

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 06:44:44 AM »
I'm hoping to get the Oxford edition either on e-book or in a used paperback, if they have one.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2011, 08:14:07 AM »
I think the RSV can be rather clunky. For all its faults the OSB is preferable.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2011, 09:56:26 AM »
I'm hoping to get the Oxford edition either on e-book or in a used paperback, if they have one.
An excellent choice, if it is RSV.  Stay away from the NRSV
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2011, 10:31:28 AM »
I think the RSV can be rather clunky. For all its faults the OSB is preferable.

A lot of people knock the OSB, but I rather like it, too. As a serious inquirer and catechumen, the footnotes and articles were very helpful in learning how to read and understand Scripture with an Orthodox mind. The articles in the back, along with the morning/evening prayers and lectionary are also quite nice...not to mention the beautiful full-color icons!


I'm hoping to get the Oxford edition either on e-book or in a used paperback, if they have one.
An excellent choice, if it is RSV.  Stay away from the NRSV

Yes. Unfortunately, the NRSV is prohibitively gender-neutral. This is especially problematic when it comes to the allegorical christology of the Psalms.  :(
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Offline Shiny

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2011, 11:40:16 AM »
There's the Catholic RSV, which is decent enough, but I prefer the original RSV.

Hmm. What are the differences between the original RSV and its Catholic counterpart? I've been referred a few times to the Oxford Annotated RSV and I've thought about getting it, but I also don't own any Catholic Bibles, and feel like I should for some reason.

Oxford has an ESV w/ Apocrypha too, not a bad translation either.

ESV? Interesting. That's a Reformed translation, IIRC. I've liked what I've seen of it, but I've never owned one myself. My assumption is that it would impose a more Protestant reading of the text, as the NIV (one of my go-to translations as a Protestant, and to be avoided AT ALL COSTS) does in places.
The only difference I see with the Catholic Edition of the RSV is the word begotten in St Johns gospel. Instead of only son, it is only begotten son.

Yeah the ESV is Protestant but its pretty literal and a word for word translation. It's nice but of course has its own issues.
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Offline Timon

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2011, 11:52:44 AM »
I think the RSV can be rather clunky. For all its faults the OSB is preferable.

A lot of people knock the OSB, but I rather like it, too. As a serious inquirer and catechumen, the footnotes and articles were very helpful in learning how to read and understand Scripture with an Orthodox mind. The articles in the back, along with the morning/evening prayers and lectionary are also quite nice...not to mention the beautiful full-color icons!


I'm hoping to get the Oxford edition either on e-book or in a used paperback, if they have one.
An excellent choice, if it is RSV.  Stay away from the NRSV

Yes. Unfortunately, the NRSV is prohibitively gender-neutral. This is especially problematic when it comes to the allegorical christology of the Psalms.  :(

What would an example be of this "gender neutral" language.  Ive heard a lot about it, but im not completely sure what it means.  And if its so bad, why did they do it?
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 12:18:43 PM »
I think the RSV can be rather clunky. For all its faults the OSB is preferable.

A lot of people knock the OSB, but I rather like it, too. As a serious inquirer and catechumen, the footnotes and articles were very helpful in learning how to read and understand Scripture with an Orthodox mind. The articles in the back, along with the morning/evening prayers and lectionary are also quite nice...not to mention the beautiful full-color icons!


I'm hoping to get the Oxford edition either on e-book or in a used paperback, if they have one.
An excellent choice, if it is RSV.  Stay away from the NRSV

Yes. Unfortunately, the NRSV is prohibitively gender-neutral. This is especially problematic when it comes to the allegorical christology of the Psalms.  :(

What would an example be of this "gender neutral" language.  Ive heard a lot about it, but im not completely sure what it means.  And if its so bad, why did they do it?
Replacing words like "he" or "son" with words like "one" and "offspring".

They either do it because academic institutions have standards in place demanding the use of gender neutral language and they want to be taken seriously in the academic realm or because they're vile heretics with an agenda to obscure the gender specificity of the Father and Son as revealed to the Church. ;)
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 12:20:57 PM »
What would an example be of this "gender neutral" language.  Ive heard a lot about it, but im not completely sure what it means.  And if its so bad, why did they do it?

An example I like to use (and hear others use a lot) is the first verse of Psalm I: "Blessed in the Man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful." This Psalm, at its heart, is christological. We sing it at Great Vespers every Saturday night (and other important feasts). Right after the Great Litany. Essentially, Vespers (and particularly Great Vespers) is meant to teach and do a few different things:

1. It's the evening communal prayer service.
2. It's a recap of the Old Testament.
3. Given #2, it is also to remind us of the hope of Christ (this is made more evident in Sunday/Festal Matins and then, obviously the Divine Liturgy)

Speaking particularly to the latter two reasons, Great Vespers begins with what we call the Creation Psalm (Psalm 103. That's 104 in Hebrew Bibles). The church is brightly lit, and the priest is vested in his phelon (Eastern version of the chasible) as he censes the whole church, the deacon is with the priest, carrying a large candle. The royal doors of the altar are open, and the choir is singing this psalm about how God created the world in all it's majesty. We're at the creation of the universe! It's a very happy time in the service.

Then, the psalm ends, the priest and deacon go into the altar. The lights of the church get lower, the priest removes his phelon and shuts the royal doors. The deacon comes into the nave and stands in front of the closed royal doors. He begins the Great Litany. This is the Fall of Man. The altar represents Paradise, the royal doors show that we have sinned and eternal life is closed to us. The deacon represents fallen humanity, petitioning God before the closed gate of Paradise. The mood is more solemn. At each petition, the people beg God for mercy.

After this, the deacon goes back into the altar and the choir begins singing, "Blessed is the Man that walks not in the counsel of the wicked. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia..." This is a PROPHECY. We're already looking forward to the coming of Christ, the Blessed Man who is not fallen like us, who is without sin! The rest of Vespers continues much in this vein, as we petition and look towards Christ. The service ends with the Incarnation itself, the Angelic Saluation..."Rejoice O Virgin Theotokos, Mary Full of Grace the Lord is with Thee..." Gabriel is announcing to the Virgin! Our salvation is at hand! Christ has come! :)

Now, I said all that to emphasize that, in our Tradition, Psalm One must say "Blessed is the Man" because we're talking about Christ. However, unfortunately, many gender-neutral or otherwise "politically correct" translations miss this very important point of our Holy Tradition and will translate this as "Blessed is the one" or worse, "Blessed are those." One translation I remember reading even says, "Happy are the people." WHAT?!  :o

These translations totally skew the way we view the Psalms. By including such generic language, the christological nature of many of these hymns are lost, and therefore these translations do not reflect the way in which the Orthodox Church views the prophecies of Christ within the Psalter. If we were to sing, "happy are the people" every Saturday night instead of "Blessed is the Man" it would lose the whole reason we sing it at the service to begin with, because it's no longer a Christological prophecy. It has been reduced to the level of a fortune cookie.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 12:29:45 PM by Benjamin the Red »
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Offline Timon

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 12:51:58 PM »
Good points. Thanks for clearing that up!

And I just found out that I do have a copy of the RSV, although it doesnt have the apocrypha. I bought it at a thrift store a while back.  And for the record, if you want to have a collection of different translations, a thrift store is a good place to look.  You can get used Bibles for 1 or 2 bucks.  Sometimes even cheaper.

I even bought a book of mormon one time because it was 50 cents... ha! Figured I may as well have it in my library.

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline jewish voice

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 07:50:41 PM »
I think the RSV can be rather clunky. For all its faults the OSB is preferable.

A lot of people knock the OSB, but I rather like it, too. As a serious inquirer and catechumen, the footnotes and articles were very helpful in learning how to read and understand Scripture with an Orthodox mind. The articles in the back, along with the morning/evening prayers and lectionary are also quite nice...not to mention the beautiful full-color icons!


I'm hoping to get the Oxford edition either on e-book or in a used paperback, if they have one.
An excellent choice, if it is RSV.  Stay away from the NRSV

Yes. Unfortunately, the NRSV is prohibitively gender-neutral. This is especially problematic when it comes to the allegorical christology of the Psalms.  :(

What would an example be of this "gender neutral" language.  Ive heard a lot about it, but im not completely sure what it means.  And if its so bad, why did they do it?
To be honest when I line it up with the many many other bibles that I own there isn't much to different. NRSV in the opening pages ex of how it only is gender neutral only when it comes to people or as they use (mankind) but there this no gender neutral when it come to God.
 What I find funny as how all of a sudden the RSV is a great bible to read cause back in 1952 when if first came out it was seen as being to gender neutral and going to help tear down the church and all hope was lost  :laugh: I give it about another 5 to 10 years and NRSV will be the so called choice bible.
I think you said you own the OSB and look how it gets bashed a lot by some of the who is who in Orthodox. I in no way like I said before really like how the NRSV is done but that is a personal feeling just as pretty much all the others are giving you there personal feelings.  There is also the Third Millennium Bible which is the 1611AD  authorized version with apocrypha in it. I don't own this bible yet but is on my list to get

Offline Iconodule

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 08:40:42 PM »
The RSV was criticized not for "gender neutral" language but for certain heterodox readings, including translating almah as "young woman" instead of "virgin." And the criticism was just.
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Offline biro

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 08:44:37 PM »
Slight sidebar: if you like audiobooks, Librivox.org has some files of the Apocrypha you can download for free. They are also working on posting a couple different editions of the Bible. These may not be complete at the moment. Yay, save money too!   :)
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Offline genesisone

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2011, 07:14:54 AM »
Slight sidebar: if you like audiobooks, Librivox.org has some files of the Apocrypha you can download for free. They are also working on posting a couple different editions of the Bible. These may not be complete at the moment. Yay, save money too!   :)
Yes, librivox is an excellent resource. I have listened to many novels and other works over the last couple of years. I find this site to be more user-friendly when searching for a book  :).

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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2011, 01:56:13 PM »
One translation I remember reading even says, "Happy are the people." WHAT?!  :o

That's NRSV - I know, because I have a copy  ;D The reason I bought it is because it had the apocrypha, which is what I use it for mainly; I also use it for Old Testament readings (during Lent and before Great Feasts). I find it alright for what I use it for, and it is hardback. I never used it for the Psalms, as I have a couple of "New Testament & Psalms" which I use instead; in fact, I never knew the NRSV said "happy are those" until I read all this NRSV-hate and checked my own copy just now!
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Re: RSV w/ apocrypha?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2011, 04:33:15 PM »
I think the RSV can be rather clunky. For all its faults the OSB is preferable.

A lot of people knock the OSB, but I rather like it, too. As a serious inquirer and catechumen, the footnotes and articles were very helpful in learning how to read and understand Scripture with an Orthodox mind. The articles in the back, along with the morning/evening prayers and lectionary are also quite nice...not to mention the beautiful full-color icons!


I'm hoping to get the Oxford edition either on e-book or in a used paperback, if they have one.
An excellent choice, if it is RSV.  Stay away from the NRSV

Yes. Unfortunately, the NRSV is prohibitively gender-neutral. This is especially problematic when it comes to the allegorical christology of the Psalms.  :(

What would an example be of this "gender neutral" language.  Ive heard a lot about it, but im not completely sure what it means.  And if its so bad, why did they do it?

Son of Man in Ezekiel 37, a phrase which has unmistakable Messianic implications in the NRSV becomes the insipid "Mortal." In other later versions it becomes the horrid "Son of Humanity." Ghastly!
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.