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Author Topic: Pope calls for world bank to combat 'Idolatry of the Market'  (Read 3890 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shlomlokh
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« on: October 24, 2011, 03:39:20 PM »

I'm shocked no one has posted this yet. Any thoughts?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS264245887020111024

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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2011, 04:00:14 PM »

I'm shocked no one has posted this yet. Any thoughts?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS264245887020111024

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Full text for context: http://www.news.va/en/news/full-text-note-on-financial-reform-from-the-pontif

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Andrew
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2011, 04:22:50 PM »

This is not particularly distinct from similar messages on consumerism and the market coming from the MP and the EP in recent years.
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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2011, 05:03:53 PM »

This is quite a leap in development from the Pope's earlier positions warning about the excesses which can result from unbridled or unprincipled capitalism.

The former opinions were essentially non-controversial from the point of view of Christian morality.

Setting up a one world government for financial matters, is extremely controversial.

The Pope's most recent ideas, if implemented, would set the stage for a totalitarianism of unprecedented brutality.  It can be legitimately inquired whether the Pope might not be carrying water for the Antichrist, either knowingly or unknowingly.

Shame on the Pope! Unwitting heresy is one thing. Apocalyptic Antichrist-related nonense is something far more serious, and something most unbecoming of the man.
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2011, 05:13:14 PM »

This is quite a leap in development from the Pope's earlier positions warning about the excesses which can result from unbridled or unprincipled capitalism.

The former opinions were essentially non-controversial from the point of view of Christian morality.

Setting up a one world government for financial matters, is extremely controversial.

The Pope's most recent ideas, if implemented, would set the stage for a totalitarianism of unprecedented brutality.  It can be legitimately inquired whether the Pope might not be carrying water for the Antichrist, either knowingly or unknowingly.

Shame on the Pope! Unwitting heresy is one thing. Apocalyptic Antichrist-related nonense is something far more serious, and something most unbecoming of the man.

If that is what he is really saying you have a point.The whole article was convoluted and perhaps poorly translated. The problem of course is that the markets have taken us in that direction through globalization since the end of the second world war and the tri-party monetary system that rules the roost today calls the shots, that is of course, the Fed, the Euro-zone and China. 
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2011, 08:09:47 PM »

Did a bit of reading, and the Pope's statement is even worse than I thought.

The Vatican document is calling for “a supranational authority” with worldwide scope and “universal jurisdiction” to guide economic policies and decisions. The authority will be run by the United Nations, according to the document.

It will take time to replace economic policies and in the process destroy national sovereignty, according to the Vatican.

“Of course, this transformation will be made at the cost of a gradual, balanced transfer of a part of each nation’s powers to a world authority and to regional authorities, but this is necessary at a time when the dynamism of human society and the economy and the progress of technology are transcending borders, which are in fact already very eroded in a globalized world.”

This is very bad.
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2011, 08:13:37 PM »

but this is necessary at a time when the dynamism of human society and the economy and the progress of technology are transcending borders, which are in fact already very eroded in a globalized world.
I'm antsy about it too but like the man said, you can't turn back the clock. Globalization is a fact.
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 09:49:41 PM »

Increased globalization on many levels, is a fact of life.

Implementing a One World Government, is something that can either be embraced or resisted. But this latter proposal is neither a fact nor an irresistible outcome.

In the U.S., the office of the presidency has been increasing in power since WWII. This is a fact. The idea that we must therefore abolish the legislative and judiciary branches of government, throw away the Constitution, and grant the presidency absolute and unchecked power, is not, however, a foregone conclusion.

You see what a difference there is, between something being a fact and some future possibility being irresistible.  
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 09:51:27 PM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 10:03:40 PM »

In further news, the Pope calls on Anton LaVey to combat the "idolatry of satanism"...
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2011, 10:05:13 PM »

In further news, the Pope calls on Anton LaVey to combat the "idolatry of satanism"...

Bloody oath.
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2011, 10:56:22 PM »

Just wait until Jack Chick and Hal Lindsey get wind of this...
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2011, 10:59:02 PM »

Just wait until Jack Chick and Hal Lindsey get wind of this...

*shudders*

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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2011, 12:05:03 AM »

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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2011, 12:17:01 AM »

new headline:

Pop Calls for Spirituality, to Combat "Idolatry of the Banking Cartel"

Pop Aidan of Austin, Texas, has identified a trend in which world leaders are increasingly determined to rely upon an international Banking Cartel to ensure stability and quality of life for Earth's seven billion inhabitants. The Pop has stated that many world leaders, among them the Roman-catholic Pope, appear motivated to give undeserved adulation, unverified trust, and unlimited power, to an unelected cartel of banking magnates. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," said the Pop, referring to plans which would place the Banking Cartel in absolute control of all financial activities worldwide. Stressing his themes in an impassioned address, he continued, "I call on all Christian believers and all people of goodwill, to resist granting unlimited power to any one group of hyper-wealthy power brokers." The Pop pointed out that many, if not most, of Earth's current financial problems were demonstrably instigated by the very same banking magnates, which formed, he said, a "criminal cartel." Said the Pop in his weekly "Arby et Orbi" address, broadcast from the Arby's sandwich shop not far from Austin's Russian Orthodox Church of the Holy Protection: "In sharp contrast to worldly concerns dear to the Roman pontiff, Christians--especially Orthodox--must hold fast to spiritual values. These spiritual values operate differently than the worldly ones, and bring much-needed hope and a sanity of balance, to the world, just as much today as they have over the past 2000 years of the Christian Era." Concluding his address, the Pop asked pointedly, "Why would one grant supreme power over financial matters, to those who have just perpetrated heinous crimes against humanity specifically in the financial realm?" The address concluded with the traditional benediction and prayer for world peace.

In a written statement issued to the press just minutes after the radio address ended, Pop Aidan wrote, "The Pope urges that supreme power be ceded to bankers, but the banking magnates who currently control or influence much of the world economy, have a documented written record which informs us of their values and their plans, and, sadly, those include abortion, forced sterilization, the "one-child" policy, and drastic population reduction on a scale which would be difficult to achieve, outside of extermination of humans on a grand scale. How are the values of the banking oligarchs compatible with the Pope's stated values of respect for human life? They are not compatible and can never be. One is left with the impression that the Pope is saying one thing and believes another. I hope that my impression is mistaken."

In an interview granted yesterday to "L'Ortodossatore," the Pop said he hoped to meet soon with the Pope at Rome to press home his universal message of spiritual values. ("Pope" or "bishop of Rome" is pronounced identically to "Pop," which means a Russian village priest, even though their respective duties differ slightly.) "Spiritual values can be quoted, but to be genuine they must be brought to realization by spiritual, and not worldly, activities," concluded His Nothingness.
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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2011, 12:05:06 PM »

This thread is a good laugh.
Unfortunately, more often than not, the Pope doesn't have control over what his subordinates say or do, especially those in some obscure pontifical council like this pontifical council for justice or whatever that issued this document. But thanks be to God, they are NOT infallible. Even a lot of Catholics don't like this crap. What they say only represents the opinion of the people in the commision, not that of the Pope or the Catholic Church for that matter.
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2011, 12:19:08 PM »

I don't see Pope Benedict's name in any of the articles.
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2011, 12:35:11 PM »

I don't think, Fr. Aidan, the functionary who produced this paper said anything about ceding world power to the bankers. Rather, he proposes an international authority to check the bankers.

It would be nice if you accurately characterized the functionary's proposals.

I disagree with the document's proposal, but since it has no authority, what is the point of bothering about it?
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2011, 01:06:55 PM »

Quote
I don't see Pope Benedict's name in any of the articles.

Pope Benedict is cited several times in the full text article. Cardinal Turkson was appointed to the Pontifical Council for Justice & Peace by Pope Benedict in 2009 (wikipedia).

Why would this NOT be considered a position paper by the Vatican?
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2011, 01:44:32 PM »

Quote
I don't see Pope Benedict's name in any of the articles.

Pope Benedict is cited several times in the full text article. Cardinal Turkson was appointed to the Pontifical Council for Justice & Peace by Pope Benedict in 2009 (wikipedia).

Why would this NOT be considered a position paper by the Vatican?


I don't see these direct quotes.  Please point them out to me.

Please understand.  I have no problems if someone said, "Vatican calls for world bank..." but from my reading of this, Pope Benedict has said nothing on the subject.
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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2011, 04:13:18 PM »

Cardinal Turkson is an appointee of Pope Benedict, operating within the scope of his authority. He's published this paper, and in it he does cite and use quotes from Pope Benedict to support his position. Unless the Pope immediately dismisses Cardinal Turkson, I have presume he is operating with the Pope's content, whether direct or tacit.

Even if Cardinal Turkson is somehow acting only under his own authority, which I can't believe - I don't think Pope Benedict could have risen through the political structure of the Roman Catholic Church and be so impotent or incompetent that he can't control his subordinates - he is still a Cardinal; and therefore in a position of power and authority within the Roman Catholic church, "management", if you will. Therefore, he is in a position to attempt to move this agenda forward, so I can't dismiss this document as meaningless or unimportant.

As to what exactly it means, I am still trying to carefully sort that out.

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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2011, 04:50:11 PM »

Quote
I don't see Pope Benedict's name in any of the articles.

Pope Benedict is cited several times in the full text article. Cardinal Turkson was appointed to the Pontifical Council for Justice & Peace by Pope Benedict in 2009 (wikipedia).

Why would this NOT be considered a position paper by the Vatican?


I don't see these direct quotes.  Please point them out to me.

Please understand.  I have no problems if someone said, "Vatican calls for world bank..." but from my reading of this, Pope Benedict has said nothing on the subject.

I'll assume this is directed at me. Smiley Is not Benedict XVI as pope of Rome the head of Vatican City? Can we not equate the Vatican and pope together as we do when we say White house and President So-and-so, etc.? Even if the "Vatican" said it, it had to have had his backing and support. I thought the article made that clear.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2011, 06:17:19 PM »

If the Pope intended this document to be binding on Catholics, he would have issued it under his own name as an encyclical or apostolic constitution, or it would have been issued by the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. The Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace has no teaching authority.

I would bet that the Holy Father hasn't even read this document.

As for teaching on this subject, only 2 years ago Pope Benedict DID issue an encyclical, called Caritas in Veritate. It does make suggestions about international institutions providing oversight for international trade, justice, finance, etc. Of course, we already have these institutions, but I think the Holy Father is suggesting that they be reformed to better serve their purposes.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2011, 07:40:44 PM »

You people really have no idea how the Vatican operates and want to continue to labor under the naive notion that the Pope is, in practical terms (as opposed to the theoretical world most Orthodox live in regarding the Pope's temporal power), an absolute monarch.

I suppose that the EP, the MP, and the rest of the Old World Patriarchs are directly responsible for everything that the bishops, priests and deacons under their respective omphorions say. 
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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2011, 07:42:19 PM »

Quote
I don't see Pope Benedict's name in any of the articles.

Pope Benedict is cited several times in the full text article. Cardinal Turkson was appointed to the Pontifical Council for Justice & Peace by Pope Benedict in 2009 (wikipedia).

Why would this NOT be considered a position paper by the Vatican?


I don't see these direct quotes.  Please point them out to me.

Please understand.  I have no problems if someone said, "Vatican calls for world bank..." but from my reading of this, Pope Benedict has said nothing on the subject.

I'll assume this is directed at me. Smiley Is not Benedict XVI as pope of Rome the head of Vatican City? Can we not equate the Vatican and pope together as we do when we say White house and President So-and-so, etc.? Even if the "Vatican" said it, it had to have had his backing and support. I thought the article made that clear.

In Christ,
Andrew

Even the original article doesn't say, "Pope Benedict...".  It clearly says, "Vatican".

You can point out the errors of our heterodox brethren without having to fall into such misdirection.
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2011, 07:56:59 PM »

If the Pope intended this document to be binding on Catholics, he would have issued it under his own name as an encyclical or apostolic constitution, or it would have been issued by the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. The Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace has no teaching authority.
I don't think anyone was saying that he said as such. Does everything in your church have to be so neatly and systematically defined? I apologize if that sounds snarky, I just can't think of any other way to phrase it. I recall reading through Lumen Gentium and it spoke of other teachings coming from the pope that were just as worthy of assenting as any other formal proclamation. I'm not saying this latest news from the Vatican bears that weight. However, your answer above seems like a typical manner in which I've noticed many RCs will write off something controversial. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Smiley

Quote
I would bet that the Holy Father hasn't even read this document.

As for teaching on this subject, only 2 years ago Pope Benedict DID issue an encyclical, called Caritas in Veritate. It does make suggestions about international institutions providing oversight for international trade, justice, finance, etc. Of course, we already have these institutions, but I think the Holy Father is suggesting that they be reformed to better serve their purposes.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html
If that's the case, then someone in Rome must have egg on their face.  Undecided

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2011, 08:04:01 PM »

Quote
I don't see Pope Benedict's name in any of the articles.

Pope Benedict is cited several times in the full text article. Cardinal Turkson was appointed to the Pontifical Council for Justice & Peace by Pope Benedict in 2009 (wikipedia).

Why would this NOT be considered a position paper by the Vatican?


I don't see these direct quotes.  Please point them out to me.

Please understand.  I have no problems if someone said, "Vatican calls for world bank..." but from my reading of this, Pope Benedict has said nothing on the subject.

I'll assume this is directed at me. Smiley Is not Benedict XVI as pope of Rome the head of Vatican City? Can we not equate the Vatican and pope together as we do when we say White house and President So-and-so, etc.? Even if the "Vatican" said it, it had to have had his backing and support. I thought the article made that clear.

In Christ,
Andrew

Even the original article doesn't say, "Pope Benedict...".  It clearly says, "Vatican".
When a bit of news is released with the headline "The White House said x today on y" I should assume that the president (whoever he or she may be) has no knowledge of it whatsoever?

Let's face it, without the pope there would be no Vatican. He had to have known that this was released and had to have given it some sort of approval in some fashion, whether "official" or not.

Quote
You can point out the errors of our heterodox brethren without having to fall into such misdirection.
Do you think I'm trying to purposefully deceive, Schultz?  Huh I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2011, 10:19:41 PM »

Can we all agree that the Pope at least read the document and said, "OK, publish it"?
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« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2011, 11:42:18 PM »

Jetavan, nope. A lot of times the Pope is only informed of these things when he bothers to watch the news which is not often.
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« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2011, 12:09:10 AM »

Can we all agree that the Pope at least read the document and said, "OK, publish it"?

No. Definitely not.  I have a friend who was studying for the priesthood in Rome for a couple years and he painted a picture of an essentially powerless papacy, a papacy controlled by multifarious forces. 

It is interesting that on paper the Pope has absolute power over the entire Church, yet in practice he knows very little and has little say in his own house. 
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« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2011, 12:36:53 AM »

That's reality for you. I wonder what will happen if the Pope doesn't have theoretical absolute power.
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« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2011, 12:48:01 AM »

That's reality for you. I wonder what will happen if the Pope doesn't have theoretical absolute power.

Well if you consciously reject his theoretical power, with full knowledge, you are damned forever.  
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« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2011, 01:07:49 AM »

http://www.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=532223

"The proposal which is not a papal document, ..."

It's a 'White Paper" - the same kind of staff proposal put forth by corporate minutantes throughout the globe - the only difference here being that some of the minutantes in question are garbed in clerical vesture.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2011, 02:35:38 AM »

It's an egregiously bad idea. (I guess that clears up the infallibility issue.)

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« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2011, 03:33:48 AM »

Maybe someone should explain why globalism and a one world government is bad.

I know the Left Behind book series tells us that a one world government will inevitably be one that is horribly mismanaged, incompetent, commit atrocities and fail comically at every turn and attempt to exterminate all Christians in addition to being led by Satan incarnate... But since that fantasy series isn't anything other than fantasy, I don't see any real reason for me to take it seriously.
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« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2011, 07:10:59 AM »

Maybe someone should explain why globalism and a one world government is bad.

See the present state of EU. When one combines a group of different economies with differing national identities things seem to end up pretty messy.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 07:12:37 AM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2011, 07:14:19 AM »

That's reality for you. I wonder what will happen if the Pope doesn't have theoretical absolute power.

Well if you consciously reject his theoretical power, with full knowledge, you are damned forever.  
Is that a dogma?
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« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2011, 09:39:08 AM »

It's obvious Italy is now having solvency issues.
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« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2011, 09:44:27 AM »

The Pope is not infallible in economic matters anyway.
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« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2011, 09:53:42 AM »

Quote
Focusing on how much papal muscle the note can flex, however, risks ignoring what is at least an equally revealing question: Whatever you make of it, does the note seem to reflect important currents in Catholic social and political thought anywhere in the world?

The answer is yes, and it happens to be where two-thirds of the Catholics on the planet today live: the southern hemisphere, also known as the developing world.
 
It's fitting that the Vatican official responsible for the document is an African, Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana, because it articulates key elements of what almost might be called a "southern consensus." One way of sizing up the note's significance, therefore, is as an indication that the demographic transition long under way in Catholicism, with the center of gravity shifting from north to south, is being felt in Rome.
 
There are almost 750 million Catholics scattered across Africa, Asia and Latin America, and generalizations about such a vast pool of people are always hazardous. Nonetheless, on matters of sexual morality and the "culture wars," Catholics in the south generally strike Europeans and Americans as remarkably conservative -- opposed to gay marriage, anti-abortion, devoted to the traditional family. When the conversation shifts to economic policy and geopolitics, however, Catholic opinion in the developing world often comes off in the West as strikingly progressive.
....
This is not the dying echo of warmed-over European socialism. For better or worse, it's the first ripple of a southern wave.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 09:57:19 AM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2011, 10:19:18 AM »

Thanks for the analysis. Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2011, 10:30:51 AM »

THANK YOU JETAVAN reply #38!
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« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2011, 04:15:13 PM »

Excellent analysis piece on the Vatican's Little Document of Horrors.

"What's wrong with an unelected One World Government, having incredible totalitarian powers, and taking over the whole planet so there is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, no refuge, no escape? Total control, total power--wouldn't that be okay? What could go wrong?"

I'm not even going to answer that question. But that it can find a place (as I gather) in the minds of more than a couple of people, that's really scary.

"Put not your hope in princes, in the sons of men, in whom there is no salvation."
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« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2011, 06:26:17 PM »

A paragraph I had quoted above, beginning, "Of course, this transformation," is taken from "Towards Reforming the International Financial and Monetary Systems in the Context of a Global Public Authority," a document recently published by the Vatican's Justice and Peace Dept.
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« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2011, 06:39:43 PM »

A few sentences I had put in quotes, above, with beginning words "What's wrong with an unelected," is a hypothetical quote I was "placing" in the mouth of a hypothetical speaker. I myself, no other, am the author of that little string of sentences.

(note to moderator: How's that?)

 
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« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2011, 10:37:30 AM »

We are probably heading into politics at some point, but in this morning's Washington Post (I heard it on Morning Joe earlier this AM), E. J. Dionne has an interesting Op-Ed on this very issue. In part he writes: "Inside-the-church politics aside, the Pontifical Council’s document is important because it reflects an ethical approach to economics that is shared well beyond Catholic circles. In particular, the council grapples intelligently with the problem of how the economy can be subject to reasonable rules when the nation-states that once enforced such regulations have less and less power, given how swiftly and easily capital moves." http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-vatican-meets-the-wall-street-occupiers/2011/10/26/gIQAGO8EKM_story.html?hpid=z3 J

Just some food for thought and adding a few 'logs' for the 'fire' so to speak. 

The problem of working with a clearly globalized  market 'capital' industry (bankers, hedge funds, venture funds etc...multinational corporations -  all of which are needed to make the world's economies run) given our global political structure which (rightly in most cases) resists ceding any degree of sovereignty to a regional or larger body is real and needs to be resolved without resorting to rhetorical excess from either the right or the left.
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