OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 22, 2014, 06:10:14 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Eucharist as a sacrifice  (Read 1817 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« on: October 22, 2011, 06:23:18 PM »

Why would Christ need to offer himself up again to God for the sins of man in the Eucharist when it was done "once and for all" on the cross?
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2011, 06:42:08 PM »

The eucharist is our participation in that same once for all sacrifice and how we partake thereof.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 06:42:52 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2011, 06:44:13 PM »

So then it is not thought of as an offering to God the Father for the forgiveness of sins?
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2011, 06:45:25 PM »

Yes, Christ is the one who offers and who is offered, on behalf of all and for all.
Logged
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2011, 06:46:45 PM »

Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?
Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,547


« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2011, 07:07:40 PM »

Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?

It's not again. It's that we participate in His offering.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2011, 07:09:25 PM »

Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?

The eucharist is our continuous participation ("do this in rememberance (anamnesis) of me...)in the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. Christ is continually offering/presenting himself before the Father on our behalf, because he has taken on our humanity and sat it down at the right hand of the Father and has incorporated our humanity into the self-emptying and perfect communion of the Holy Trinity.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 07:10:35 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2011, 07:12:12 PM »

Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?

The eucharist is our continuous participation ("do this in rememberance (anamnesis) of me...)in the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. Christ is continually offering/presenting himself before the Father on our behalf, because he has taken on our humanity and sat it down at the right hand of the Father and has incorporated our humanity into the self-emptying and perfect communion of the Holy Trinity.

The eucharist is our participation (by grace) in this communion of the Holy Trinity. We also offer ourselves to God (our life, our being, the fruits of our labor-bread and wine) in the eucharist.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 07:13:05 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2011, 07:28:06 PM »

So it isnt seen as a re-sacrificing of Christ right?
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: The Church of Alexandria
Posts: 5,050


Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2011, 07:34:58 PM »

So it isnt seen as a re-sacrificing of Christ right?
No. The eucharist is the very SAME sacrifice performed at Golgotha 2000 years ago by our Lord.
Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

I am currently not an active poster on the forum. Please forgive any offense I might have caused in the past. Thank you.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2011, 07:35:06 PM »

So it isnt seen as a re-sacrificing of Christ right?

No sir. By partaking of the eucharistic supper, we are simply obeying Christ's command..."do this in rememberance (anamnesis) of me..."
Logged
Mivac
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 247


« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2011, 07:47:36 PM »

Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?

He is not offered up again, we participate in the one and same offering.  From what I understand the Greek word for rememberance was not just a memorial or bring to mind, in the culture it also meant to partake of what was being remembered.
Logged
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2011, 08:23:22 PM »

Ortho_cat, I actually stumbled upon an old thread on this same subject where you linked to a quote that said something about Christ being "continually slain and divided" in the Eucharist. Is this official church doctrine? I would find a statement like that very difficult to accept.
Logged
myrrhbear
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 194


Trust in God


« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 09:22:30 PM »

I don't really want to jump into this thread, but will only add that there is the whole sense of eternity, timelessness, in Orthodox worship. The Eucharist, the Liturgy, our salvation, everything, is outside of time as we join with the Heavenly Kingdom.
Logged

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2011, 10:06:00 PM »

So it isnt seen as a re-sacrificing of Christ right?

There is only one sacrifice.

That is Christ on the cross.

Paul writes that as often as we "eat of this bread" and "drink of this cup" we "shew the Lord's death till he come" because the "cup of blessing which we bless" is "the communion of the blood of Christ" and the "bread which we break" is "the communion of the body of Christ".

Every Eucharist is a participation in the one and only sacrifice of our Lord.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
samkim
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 735



« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2011, 11:13:07 PM »

Ortho_cat, I actually stumbled upon an old thread on this same subject where you linked to a quote that said something about Christ being "continually slain and divided" in the Eucharist. Is this official church doctrine? I would find a statement like that very difficult to accept.

It transcends time, dude. Look in Revelation, where Christ is called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." We mystically enter into that once-for-all sacrifice, that took place before the foundation of the world. But it is a sacrifice, that one sacrifice, happening perpetually, and beyond time.
Logged

주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2011, 01:46:21 AM »

Ortho_cat, I actually stumbled upon an old thread on this same subject where you linked to a quote that said something about Christ being "continually slain and divided" in the Eucharist. Is this official church doctrine? I would find a statement like that very difficult to accept.

here is the passage in question:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21259.msg376767.html#msg376767

I think the follow-ups were sufficient to explain to me what he meant by that. I was inquiring into the faith at that point. Smiley Let us know if the following explanations are not sufficient and we can try to give you some more input.
Logged
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2011, 01:53:44 AM »

I think the responses are out of context with the quote.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2011, 02:17:51 AM »

I think the responses are out of context with the quote.

One thing that made sense to me was how we die and rise with Christ in baptism. Does Christ die and rise again every time we get baptized? Of course not, but we mystically unite to his one death, his one burial, and his one resurrection when we are baptized. Do you see the correlation?
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2011, 02:21:44 AM »

This passage from the Divine Liturgy is the essence of what St. Seraphim was getting at in the quote found in the other thread in his discourse on the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:

"Broken and distributed is the Lamb of God,
broken, yet not divided; ever eaten, though never
consumed, but sanctifying them that partake
thereof"
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2011, 02:54:07 AM »

i bumped this thread by accident, but i found this quote to be very helpful to the subject at hand:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21259.msg658469.html#msg658469
Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2011, 02:12:06 PM »

One of the best explanations I've ever heard about the eternal sacrifice of the Eucharist actually comes from a Protestant, the Swiss theologian Karl Barth. He is stated as saying, "The crucifixion is an eternal event which occurred within history."

This is exactly what the Eucharist is. When we enter into the Divine Liturgy, we enter mystically into the heavenly temple, into eternity. We are joined by the heavens in proclaiming Christ as God, and partake continually in the once-for-all sacrifice of the Cross. Christ is only sacrificed historically once, but we enter into that self-same sacrifice eternally, at each Liturgy in the Heavenly Kingdom.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2011, 05:41:56 PM »

One of the best explanations I've ever heard about the eternal sacrifice of the Eucharist actually comes from a Protestant, the Swiss theologian Karl Barth. He is stated as saying, "The crucifixion is an eternal event which occurred within history."

This is exactly what the Eucharist is. When we enter into the Divine Liturgy, we enter mystically into the heavenly temple, into eternity. We are joined by the heavens in proclaiming Christ as God, and partake continually in the once-for-all sacrifice of the Cross. Christ is only sacrificed historically once, but we enter into that self-same sacrifice eternally, at each Liturgy in the Heavenly Kingdom.

Would you guys say that this is why during the anamnesis, all the things that are commemorated as "having come to pass for our sake" actually include present and future events (the sitting at the right hand and the second and glorious coming-again)?

How do you commemorate something that is still happening or hasn't happened yet? Is it because these things happen once in history but are also eternal events, having been wrought by the one who transcends time?
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2011, 06:00:06 PM »

One of the best explanations I've ever heard about the eternal sacrifice of the Eucharist actually comes from a Protestant, the Swiss theologian Karl Barth. He is stated as saying, "The crucifixion is an eternal event which occurred within history."

This is exactly what the Eucharist is. When we enter into the Divine Liturgy, we enter mystically into the heavenly temple, into eternity. We are joined by the heavens in proclaiming Christ as God, and partake continually in the once-for-all sacrifice of the Cross. Christ is only sacrificed historically once, but we enter into that self-same sacrifice eternally, at each Liturgy in the Heavenly Kingdom.

This does help. thanks.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.084 seconds with 50 queries.