Destined to Hell for not being Catholic anymore

[orthonorm]

If you are not Catholic in the true and patristic sense then you are not Orthodox. 

What do you mean, "in the true and patristic sense"?

Whatever an Orthodox Christian believe at the moment.

Then why are you Orthodox?

The funny thing about you PtA is that what you wish you could do, you don't recognize it when it happens.

[William]

If you are not Catholic in the true and patristic sense then you are not Orthodox. 

What do you mean, "in the true and patristic sense"?

A member of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church which the Orthodox Church professes Herself to be.

[Father H]

If you are not Catholic in the true and patristic sense then you are not Orthodox. 

What do you mean, "in the true and patristic sense"?

I mean that the Ecumenical Councils and the Holy Fathers speak of the Orthodox Church as "the Catholic Church" and also of Orthodox Christians as "Catholics."  This is the true and patristic sense.

[Father H]

As a whole our people really need to do some more patristic reading.   St. Maximus states that Christ NAMED his Church the Catholic Church (capital C).  The councils in the history of the Orthodox Church refer to her repeatedly as the "Catholic and Apostolic Church."  This is just as true post schism as it is pre-schism.   The RCC calls itself "the Catholic Church."  That's nice.  However, there is a problem in that every single saint and council refer to what we commonly call today "the Orthodox Church" as "the Catholic Church" or as "the Orthodox Catholic Church" or as "God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church."   Read the acts of the Synod of Jerusalem under Dositheus.  Not once is the Church which contains the Orthodox patriarchates of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Rus, etc. called "the Orthodox Church."  Read the decisions of the 19th century councils.  Repeatedly it is "Orthodox Catholic" or "Catholic and Apostolic."  It is called the capital C Catholic Church.  That another body does the same should have no impact on us. 

[orthonorm]

If you are not Catholic in the true and patristic sense then you are not Orthodox. 

What do you mean, "in the true and patristic sense"?

A member of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church which the Orthodox Church professes Herself to be.

Nothing like the triumph of an Orthodox . . . wait, you are what again?

[orthonorm]

If you are not Catholic in the true and patristic sense then you are not Orthodox. 

What do you mean, "in the true and patristic sense"?

I mean that the Ecumenical Councils and the Holy Fathers speak of the Orthodox Church as "the Catholic Church" and also of Orthodox Christians as "Catholics."  This is the true and patristic sense.

You see though, some people think they are the Catholic and Orthodox Church and we ain't.

How do you have a constructive discussion with folks like that?

Do you correct everyone in RL who calls themselves Catholic with the above?

[William]

If you are not Catholic in the true and patristic sense then you are not Orthodox. 

What do you mean, "in the true and patristic sense"?

A member of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church which the Orthodox Church professes Herself to be.

Nothing like the triumph of an Orthodox . . . wait, you are what again?

An inquirer.

And that was mean.

[orthonorm]

If you are not Catholic in the true and patristic sense then you are not Orthodox. 

What do you mean, "in the true and patristic sense"?

A member of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church which the Orthodox Church professes Herself to be.

Nothing like the triumph of an Orthodox . . . wait, you are what again?

An inquirer.

And that was mean.

I would rather be mean than average.

 //:=) I can never help myself with that one.

[William]

*rimshot*

[Riddikulus]

Don't worry, William. Most of us went through the *inquirer* stage and survived to emerge reasonably sane. Although, *sane* is a relative term, I suppose. 

[orthonorm]

Don't worry, William. Most of us went through the *inquirer* stage and survived to emerge reasonably sane. Although, *sane* is a relative term, I suppose. 

Don't mince words:

William, you don't have to end up like orthonorm. Have hope!

[William]

Don't worry, William. Most of us went through the *inquirer* stage and survived to emerge reasonably sane. Although, *sane* is a relative term, I suppose. 

I don't really see professing the Orthodox Church to be Catholic as being overzealous or triumphalist or inquirer-y, though. Is Father an inquirer? 

[Riddikulus]

Don't worry, William. Most of us went through the *inquirer* stage and survived to emerge reasonably sane. Although, *sane* is a relative term, I suppose. 

Don't mince words:

William, you don't have to end up like orthonorm. Have hope!

  Worse than that, he might end up like me. Always pushing the boundaries! (But I wanna know!!)

[orthonorm]

Don't worry, William. Most of us went through the *inquirer* stage and survived to emerge reasonably sane. Although, *sane* is a relative term, I suppose. 

I don't really see professing the Orthodox Church to be Catholic as being overzealous or triumphalist or inquirer-y, though. Is Father an inquirer? 

Let's all pray, that we remain inquirers in hearts throughout eternity.



lulz.

[Nick, that Shane moment was for you]

[Riddikulus]

Don't worry, William. Most of us went through the *inquirer* stage and survived to emerge reasonably sane. Although, *sane* is a relative term, I suppose. 

I don't really see professing the Orthodox Church to be Catholic as being overzealous or triumphalist or inquirer-y, though. Is Father an inquirer? 

Hon, don't lose a sense of humour on the road to martyrdom. Don't take offence. We are ribbing you.

[biro]

As a whole our people really need to do some more patristic reading.   St. Maximus states that Christ NAMED his Church the Catholic Church (capital C).  The councils in the history of the Orthodox Church refer to her repeatedly as the "Catholic and Apostolic Church."  This is just as true post schism as it is pre-schism.   The RCC calls itself "the Catholic Church."  That's nice.  However, there is a problem in that every single saint and council refer to what we commonly call today "the Orthodox Church" as "the Catholic Church" or as "the Orthodox Catholic Church" or as "God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church."   Read the acts of the Synod of Jerusalem under Dositheus.  Not once is the Church which contains the Orthodox patriarchates of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Rus, etc. called "the Orthodox Church."  Read the decisions of the 19th century councils.  Repeatedly it is "Orthodox Catholic" or "Catholic and Apostolic."  It is called the capital C Catholic Church.  That another body does the same should have no impact on us. 

This is not going to affect one whit the behavior of the billion people in That Other Church. 

[Father H]

If you are not Catholic in the true and patristic sense then you are not Orthodox. 

What do you mean, "in the true and patristic sense"?

I mean that the Ecumenical Councils and the Holy Fathers speak of the Orthodox Church as "the Catholic Church" and also of Orthodox Christians as "Catholics."  This is the true and patristic sense.

You see though, some people think they are the Catholic and Orthodox Church and we ain't.

How do you have a constructive discussion with folks like that?

Do you correct everyone in RL who calls themselves Catholic with the above?

No!  but you by the same token don't deny that you are what you are. 

[Father H]

As a whole our people really need to do some more patristic reading.   St. Maximus states that Christ NAMED his Church the Catholic Church (capital C).  The councils in the history of the Orthodox Church refer to her repeatedly as the "Catholic and Apostolic Church."  This is just as true post schism as it is pre-schism.   The RCC calls itself "the Catholic Church."  That's nice.  However, there is a problem in that every single saint and council refer to what we commonly call today "the Orthodox Church" as "the Catholic Church" or as "the Orthodox Catholic Church" or as "God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church."   Read the acts of the Synod of Jerusalem under Dositheus.  Not once is the Church which contains the Orthodox patriarchates of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Rus, etc. called "the Orthodox Church."  Read the decisions of the 19th century councils.  Repeatedly it is "Orthodox Catholic" or "Catholic and Apostolic."  It is called the capital C Catholic Church.  That another body does the same should have no impact on us. 

This is not going to affect one whit the behavior of the billion people in That Other Church. 

What does that have to do with denying that you are what you are? 

[biro]

You may be right. However, if you're looking to make them stop, I don't think they will, that's all.

[LizaSymonenko]

Just because they don't stop, doesn't mean that we should avoid the term Catholic when referring to the Church.

Perhaps if enough of us do it, for long enough, it will become "common" knowledge and enter the lexicon.

[Father H]

You may be right. However, if you're looking to make them stop, I don't think they will, that's all.

I am not looking to make them stop.  I am looking more at what we should be doing.  They can say "we are Catholic."  We disagree from a patristic sense, but we understand that this is the way it is.  However, I am horrified that some of us now would say "I am not Catholic" simply because adherents of the Vatican calls themselves Catholic.  The Church--even in the 19th century, whether in Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece (look at even the Synod of Greece of 1930 that addressed the "true children of the Orthodox Catholic Church"), Palestine, or Alexandria--would have picked us up by our hind pants and booted us straight out the door for saying that we are not Catholics.    

[orthonorm]

If you are not Catholic in the true and patristic sense then you are not Orthodox. 

What do you mean, "in the true and patristic sense"?

I mean that the Ecumenical Councils and the Holy Fathers speak of the Orthodox Church as "the Catholic Church" and also of Orthodox Christians as "Catholics."  This is the true and patristic sense.

You see though, some people think they are the Catholic and Orthodox Church and we ain't.

How do you have a constructive discussion with folks like that?

Do you correct everyone in RL who calls themselves Catholic with the above?

No!  but you by the same token don't deny that you are what you are. 

Father, I was just seeing how cantankerous you are. I was sorta hoping you did "correct" people. //:=)

[tweety234]

Slava isusu Christu!

This is what my mother-in-law feels right now and it has driven a wedge between us.  I attempted to mend fences with her, but I can still sense a very uncomfortable tension.  She outright said that either one is in the Catholic church or they are not, and anyone outside of it is Hellbound.

She told me that it's odd for me to leave Catholicism because I was a convert, and usually converts have so much zeal for their religion that they don't leave it.  Believe me, if someone had mentioned to me 11 years ago that I'd be Orthodox, I'd have had many choice words for them, as I was truly on fire for Christ and for the RCC.  It was not my plan to leave the RCC and subsequently, the Byzantine CC, but God's plan.  It may have started out as a way for us to escape a negative relationship with our priest, but it has ultimately developed into something more. 

FWIW, my own parent accepts my decision, and is just glad that I'm "in someone's church on Sunday".     (That parent is Baptist, btw.)

A strange thing for me to sort out is that my husband's family is both Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox on both sides.  My MIL grew up with one grandmother being Orthodox and the other BC.  Her very close cousin is and has always been Orthodox -- they are like sisters!  Yet MIL will not accept our conversion as valid.   

Anyone deal with issues with close relatives?  Advice?

This type of attitudes drive me crazy. "My God is better than your God, my theory is better than your theory, my tradition is truer than your tradition.".  This is why, I say without Christ we are nothing. regardless of denomination. With christ we are everything. Even when we are just sitting in our couch and watching a romantic movie. With christ, no one moves you. Without him you are just a leaf in the mercy of the most manic wind. In other words you are moved already.

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