neon_knights
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« on: October 22, 2011, 06:23:18 PM » |
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Why would Christ need to offer himself up again to God for the sins of man in the Eucharist when it was done "once and for all" on the cross?
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2011, 06:42:08 PM » |
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The eucharist is our participation in that same once for all sacrifice and how we partake thereof.
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« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 06:42:52 PM by Ortho_cat »
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neon_knights
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2011, 06:44:13 PM » |
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So then it is not thought of as an offering to God the Father for the forgiveness of sins?
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2011, 06:45:25 PM » |
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Yes, Christ is the one who offers and who is offered, on behalf of all and for all.
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neon_knights
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2011, 06:46:45 PM » |
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Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?
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Michał Kalina
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2011, 07:07:40 PM » |
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Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?
It's not again. It's that we participate in His offering. |
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.  Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2011, 07:09:25 PM » |
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Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?
The eucharist is our continuous participation ("do this in rememberance (anamnesis) of me...)in the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. Christ is continually offering/presenting himself before the Father on our behalf, because he has taken on our humanity and sat it down at the right hand of the Father and has incorporated our humanity into the self-emptying and perfect communion of the Holy Trinity. |
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« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 07:10:35 PM by Ortho_cat »
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2011, 07:12:12 PM » |
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Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?
The eucharist is our continuous participation ("do this in rememberance (anamnesis) of me...)in the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. Christ is continually offering/presenting himself before the Father on our behalf, because he has taken on our humanity and sat it down at the right hand of the Father and has incorporated our humanity into the self-emptying and perfect communion of the Holy Trinity. The eucharist is our participation (by grace) in this communion of the Holy Trinity. We also offer ourselves to God (our life, our being, the fruits of our labor-bread and wine) in the eucharist. |
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« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 07:13:05 PM by Ortho_cat »
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neon_knights
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2011, 07:28:06 PM » |
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So it isnt seen as a re-sacrificing of Christ right?
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Severian
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2011, 07:34:58 PM » |
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So it isnt seen as a re-sacrificing of Christ right?
No. The eucharist is the very SAME sacrifice performed at Golgotha 2000 years ago by our Lord. |
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Christ is risen! !المسيح قام Χριστός ἀνέστη! ⲠⲓⲬⲣⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲁϥⲧⲱⲛϥ! Christus resurrexit! Come and join OCnet's new book club! |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2011, 07:35:06 PM » |
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So it isnt seen as a re-sacrificing of Christ right?
No sir. By partaking of the eucharistic supper, we are simply obeying Christ's command..."do this in rememberance (anamnesis) of me..." |
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Mivac
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2011, 07:47:36 PM » |
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Why would Christ need to be offered up again though?
He is not offered up again, we participate in the one and same offering. From what I understand the Greek word for rememberance was not just a memorial or bring to mind, in the culture it also meant to partake of what was being remembered. |
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neon_knights
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2011, 08:23:22 PM » |
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Ortho_cat, I actually stumbled upon an old thread on this same subject where you linked to a quote that said something about Christ being "continually slain and divided" in the Eucharist. Is this official church doctrine? I would find a statement like that very difficult to accept.
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 09:22:30 PM » |
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I don't really want to jump into this thread, but will only add that there is the whole sense of eternity, timelessness, in Orthodox worship. The Eucharist, the Liturgy, our salvation, everything, is outside of time as we join with the Heavenly Kingdom.
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Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
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Melodist
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2011, 10:06:00 PM » |
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So it isnt seen as a re-sacrificing of Christ right? There is only one sacrifice. That is Christ on the cross. Paul writes that as often as we "eat of this bread" and "drink of this cup" we "shew the Lord's death till he come" because the "cup of blessing which we bless" is "the communion of the blood of Christ" and the "bread which we break" is "the communion of the body of Christ". Every Eucharist is a participation in the one and only sacrifice of our Lord. |
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samkim
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2011, 11:13:07 PM » |
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Ortho_cat, I actually stumbled upon an old thread on this same subject where you linked to a quote that said something about Christ being "continually slain and divided" in the Eucharist. Is this official church doctrine? I would find a statement like that very difficult to accept.
It transcends time, dude. Look in Revelation, where Christ is called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." We mystically enter into that once-for-all sacrifice, that took place before the foundation of the world. But it is a sacrifice, that one sacrifice, happening perpetually, and beyond time. |
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주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2011, 01:46:21 AM » |
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Ortho_cat, I actually stumbled upon an old thread on this same subject where you linked to a quote that said something about Christ being "continually slain and divided" in the Eucharist. Is this official church doctrine? I would find a statement like that very difficult to accept.
here is the passage in question: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21259.msg376767.html#msg376767I think the follow-ups were sufficient to explain to me what he meant by that. I was inquiring into the faith at that point.  Let us know if the following explanations are not sufficient and we can try to give you some more input. |
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neon_knights
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2011, 01:53:44 AM » |
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I think the responses are out of context with the quote.
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2011, 02:17:51 AM » |
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I think the responses are out of context with the quote.
One thing that made sense to me was how we die and rise with Christ in baptism. Does Christ die and rise again every time we get baptized? Of course not, but we mystically unite to his one death, his one burial, and his one resurrection when we are baptized. Do you see the correlation? |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2011, 02:21:44 AM » |
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This passage from the Divine Liturgy is the essence of what St. Seraphim was getting at in the quote found in the other thread in his discourse on the acquisition of the Holy Spirit:
"Broken and distributed is the Lamb of God,
broken, yet not divided; ever eaten, though never
consumed, but sanctifying them that partake
thereof"
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2011, 02:12:06 PM » |
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One of the best explanations I've ever heard about the eternal sacrifice of the Eucharist actually comes from a Protestant, the Swiss theologian Karl Barth. He is stated as saying, "The crucifixion is an eternal event which occurred within history."
This is exactly what the Eucharist is. When we enter into the Divine Liturgy, we enter mystically into the heavenly temple, into eternity. We are joined by the heavens in proclaiming Christ as God, and partake continually in the once-for-all sacrifice of the Cross. Christ is only sacrificed historically once, but we enter into that self-same sacrifice eternally, at each Liturgy in the Heavenly Kingdom.
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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2011, 05:41:56 PM » |
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One of the best explanations I've ever heard about the eternal sacrifice of the Eucharist actually comes from a Protestant, the Swiss theologian Karl Barth. He is stated as saying, "The crucifixion is an eternal event which occurred within history."
This is exactly what the Eucharist is. When we enter into the Divine Liturgy, we enter mystically into the heavenly temple, into eternity. We are joined by the heavens in proclaiming Christ as God, and partake continually in the once-for-all sacrifice of the Cross. Christ is only sacrificed historically once, but we enter into that self-same sacrifice eternally, at each Liturgy in the Heavenly Kingdom.
Would you guys say that this is why during the anamnesis, all the things that are commemorated as "having come to pass for our sake" actually include present and future events (the sitting at the right hand and the second and glorious coming-again)? How do you commemorate something that is still happening or hasn't happened yet? Is it because these things happen once in history but are also eternal events, having been wrought by the one who transcends time? |
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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neon_knights
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2011, 06:00:06 PM » |
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One of the best explanations I've ever heard about the eternal sacrifice of the Eucharist actually comes from a Protestant, the Swiss theologian Karl Barth. He is stated as saying, "The crucifixion is an eternal event which occurred within history."
This is exactly what the Eucharist is. When we enter into the Divine Liturgy, we enter mystically into the heavenly temple, into eternity. We are joined by the heavens in proclaiming Christ as God, and partake continually in the once-for-all sacrifice of the Cross. Christ is only sacrificed historically once, but we enter into that self-same sacrifice eternally, at each Liturgy in the Heavenly Kingdom.
This does help. thanks. |
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