OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 20, 2014, 12:39:54 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Bishop Williamson lashes out against the Jews again  (Read 10848 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2011, 07:09:48 PM »

Oh goodness.  Ioannis, please do not say anything like that about me.  Please.

This is a complicated discussion, truly.  I'll admit I don't have many answers.  I'm a judgmental person, so I often see what is wrong in what others believe, but I have a truly difficult time providing any alternatives.  I don't know how one should be more balanced and I don't know what one should believe.  I don't.  I have beliefs about certain things that I am unsure of, or that don't appear to have a consensus, and so I remain quiet about them.   

But to answer your question: I know what Elder Ephraim and Elder Paisios believe.  Your summary of their belief on the issue is incorrect.  All that I will say is that I don't necessarily disagree with them on the issue. 

Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,911


« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2011, 07:17:19 PM »

To be honest, as much as Bishop Williamson's Jewish obsessions are unnerving, he has kind of a point, at least about Zionist Jews. If they really think that two thousand years of exile haven't abrogated their ancient rights to the Land of Israel, it becomes a little harder for them to deny accusations of complicity in deicide by saying that such accusations only relate to their ancestors. I suppose that would mean that non-Zionist Jews get off the hook more easily. Smiley

For the record, I don't believe in an actual Jewish conspiracy, i.e. literal groups of Jews convening in specific locations (physical or virtual) to plot how to destroy Western society and subjugate the world. Likewise I don't believe in a literal Masonic conspiracy. I would agree that the modern West, and those parts of the world that are adopting Western values, can nevertheless be described as a Masonic, and, at least in America, a Zionist society, since the core values of Masonry and Zionism have been so thoroughly absorbed by the political elites (whether or not they are actually Masons or Jews) that there isn't really a need anymore for such a conspiracy. We see this is in the enormous difficulty anyone faces who tries to preach publicly that there is only one true, saving faith, that there is absolute, revealed truth, or absolute right and wrong, which all to some degree contradict Masonic teaching, and the way in which Jews have come to be held above criticism as a group, while Christianity has come to be uniquely vilified by the secular elites. Of course, there are more complicated developments within this trend, e.g. the opposition to Zionism of the New Left, which has its origin in Soviet propaganda, while the New Right has for various reasons adopted Zionist values, and even Freemasonry is now more often than not associated with political conservatism, not revolution. Nevertheless, I think I'm right as to the overall developments in our culture.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2011, 01:22:05 AM »

You're lambasted by media and ostracized from society for bringing up "Jewish wrongs"?  Perhaps for good reason.  Which "wrongs" would those be?
Off the top of my head? Genocide against the Palestinians, the false-flag operation known as 9/11, murder of the Russian Tsar (and creation of the Soviet Union), the Lavon affair, the USS Liberty incident.

Well, Yakov Yurovsky at least was Lutheran.

And Don't even think of pressing this "false flag" nonsense. No Jew had anything to do with 9/11, except to be crushed by a falling building.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 01:22:20 AM by Keble » Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2011, 02:48:22 AM »

As Christians, we shouldn't hate anyone.

However, we have to realize that there is an anti-Jewish sentiment within our faith. Why? The Jews are the first heretics. Heirs to the promise that rejected the True Faith (that is, obviously, faith in Christ). They crucified him. However, we cannot blame today's Jews for their blasphemy any more than I could be blamed for the Spanish Inquisition.

At the same time, Jews (as a people) have separated themselves from the People of God, now revealed in the Church. I'm personally not a fan of interfaith dialogue. I don't really see the point. All Jews are free and welcome to join the Church and participate fully in Her mystical life. Areligious Jews (the majority today, it seems) might as well be counted simply as atheists, and religious Jews counted as heretics and simply ignored. They have nothing to do with the life of the Church.

Now, Zionists are quite meddling and dangerous. They are religious zealots, but again...that has nothing to do with the Church. Crazy religious Jews or sane religious Jews, they are a withered olive branch, until they decide to be grafted back in. No reason really to talk about them at all, and especially cause such scandal, though I don't generally approve of meeting with Jews for "dialogue" (or Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, etc.), Bishop Williamson needs to keep his mouth shut.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2011, 03:08:05 AM »

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others? If I look at the number of lawyers, doctors, professors, chess players, mathematicians, Nobel Prize winners, bankers, I see that the percentage of Jews in these professions and areas is much greater than the percentage of Jews in the overall world population? In fact, at various times, different countries have put limitations on the number of Jews who could apply for such positions.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2011, 03:26:56 AM »

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award.
Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2011, 08:26:35 AM »

As Christians, we shouldn't hate anyone.

However, we have to realize that there is an anti-Jewish sentiment within our faith. Why? The Jews are the first heretics
...and the first Christians.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2011, 09:11:12 AM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbase out.
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2011, 09:25:30 AM »

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others?
A cultural and religious emphasis upon critical analysis of the written word, and a religious culture that demands high attention to ritualistic detail, tends to produce a certain level of intellectual sophistication in the members of that culture. There's also the fact that Jews are more globally/internationally oriented than most Western European groups (because Jews originated outside of Western Europe), which is conducive to a bi- or multi-lingualism that helps in business and in intellectual sophistication.

These characteristics are common among successful groups. You see this success also among the brahmins in Hinduism, as well as the Jains.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 09:28:17 AM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
vasily
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox church in america
Posts: 189



« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2011, 09:55:03 AM »

The latter: "Expressing reality as he sees it?"  Is he deluded?

The Jews funded the Nazi's. Regardless of the amount of evidence supporting this claim, it will certainly initiate an emotional response. The media has planted in the minds of all that such statements are anti-Semitic.


Since when did the Jews become the most innocent people on earth? I can criticize the English, the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese, the Egyptians, etc. for every wrong they have ever committed and yet I am not seen as "prejudiced", but the moment I bring up Jewish wrongs, I am lambasted by the media and ostracized from society.





Jews funded the Nazis? Can you provide proof of this, beyond, say 1935?  Did they also finance the building of the concentration camps?  That's a little like claiming Jesus committed suicide because he was a Jew and the Jews committed deicide, ergo....  Interesting.

I don't recall *anyone* saying the Jews were "the most innocent people on earth".  Ever.  Where'd you get that idea?

You're lambasted by media and ostracized from society for bringing up "Jewish wrongs"?  Perhaps for good reason.  Which "wrongs" would those be?

The Jewish bankers funded the Nazi movement. Germany's financial institutions were controlled by the Jews. Just look at the control and power of the Rothschilds.
The idea that the Holocaust is persistently brought up and used to create an impression that the victims,the Jews only, were completely innocent. Meanwhile, the list of other innocent victims during World War I is endless and not discussed.
The Russian Revolution was also funded by Jewish bankers. Trotsky made a number of trips to New York and was connected to Jacob H. Schiff, a prominent banker.
These facts in history are completely ignored and when they are brought to light, the term anti-semite is is used to silence the truth.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,963


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2011, 10:59:35 AM »

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award.
Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm


Seriously, giving 'cred' to a group proudly calling itself the 'Gnostic Liberation Front?'  Sad
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 10:59:48 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2011, 12:18:32 PM »

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others?
A cultural and religious emphasis upon critical analysis of the written word, and a religious culture that demands high attention to ritualistic detail, tends to produce a certain level of intellectual sophistication in the members of that culture.

I think that part is a bit of a stretch.  Many Jews lack a real religious culture at all, much less one that demands high attention to ritualistic detail.  They aren't just pharisees (not using in a pejorative sense) transported to modern times.

Take the composition of the current state of Israel.  The very religious, i.e. ultra-Orthodox, while focusing on ritualistic detail are, by many standards, not successful and must be supported by the state. 

Still, there's something that clearly leads to an intelligent, industrious folk, and the Hindu/Jain comparison (particularly those in the Anglosphere) is notable.  Then again, I know plenty of industrious, successful Hindus who've never been to a temple or performed any rituals.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,440



« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2011, 01:29:01 PM »

I looked at the linked to site and I wonder why the author has pinched the cover art for the Larry Niven book SF book Destiny's Road first published in 1997, as am illustration for the section titled "Creating Effective Occult War Counter-Strategies"?!?  Huh

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,069


On Sabbatical until Mid-December


« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2011, 01:53:53 PM »

What is to be made of Elder Paisios and Elder Ephraim's writings concerning a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Christianity? Should they be ignored
Yes. They were monks, not politicians, political scientists, or historians. If someone told them a silly conspiracy theory, they'd probably believe it out of innocent ignorance. Like the innocent man who believed the feather that men brought to him was that of an angel.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 01:55:03 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,911


« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2011, 02:08:18 PM »

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others?
A cultural and religious emphasis upon critical analysis of the written word, and a religious culture that demands high attention to ritualistic detail, tends to produce a certain level of intellectual sophistication in the members of that culture.

I think that part is a bit of a stretch.  Many Jews lack a real religious culture at all, much less one that demands high attention to ritualistic detail.  They aren't just pharisees (not using in a pejorative sense) transported to modern times.

Take the composition of the current state of Israel.  The very religious, i.e. ultra-Orthodox, while focusing on ritualistic detail are, by many standards, not successful and must be supported by the state. 

Still, there's something that clearly leads to an intelligent, industrious folk, and the Hindu/Jain comparison (particularly those in the Anglosphere) is notable.  Then again, I know plenty of industrious, successful Hindus who've never been to a temple or performed any rituals.

There have actually been a number of studies purporting to show that Ashkenazi (not Sephardi or Mizrachi) Jews have a higher average IQ than other European populations. I think the cultural and historical factors Jetavan mentions are at least part of the reason why IQ rose, i.e. because of the special social and economic situation of Jews in Medieval Western Europe (where the Ashkenazim originated), the most successful, and hence reproductive, members of the community tended to be the most intelligent. It's sort of a confirmation of traditional anti-Semitic caricatures: Jews just are better with numbers i.e. money and at outsmarting dumb gullible goyim (goyishe kop, anyone?), because they had to be to survive in the hostile climate of late feudal Europe. I say "late feudal" since that is really the period that saw the status of Jews plummet, e.g. when kingdoms started expelling them en masse; in late antiquity Jews were apparently quite powerful, or at least not under great hostile pressure (see work on the subject by a Bernard Bachrach). There's an evolutionary psychologist named Kevin MacDonald who's done a ton of research on this (kind of at the expense of his reputation among liberal academics).

Anyway, because this higher IQ became established in the genetic code of Ashkenazim, that is why you see Jews being smarter on average regardless of whether or not they practice their religion or are even particularly Judaic in their culture.
Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2011, 02:52:45 PM »

^ Excellent points.  I wasn't disputing that social and cultural factors contributed, but I think I viewed Jetavan's "ritualistic detail" comment too exclusively through a liturgical lens.  I'm on board now!

Plus, I tend to argue with Jetavan out of habit (sorry, Jetavan :hi-five)
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2011, 02:59:37 PM »

As Christians, we shouldn't hate anyone.

However, we have to realize that there is an anti-Jewish sentiment within our faith. Why? The Jews are the first heretics
...and the first Christians.

That isn't what I mean. Any idiot knows the first Christians were Jewish by decent, and we readily admit that the Israelite faith of the OT is our same faith. However, The Jewish people (embodied in their rabbis, the scribes, the chief priest, etc.) as a whole rejected Christ and are the first heretics.

If you actually read further down on my post, you would've read:

Quote
At the same time, Jews (as a people) have separated themselves from the People of God, now revealed in the Church...All Jews are free and welcome to join the Church and participate fully in Her mystical life.

[Religious Jews] are a withered olive branch, until they decide to be grafted back in.

And, I do mean withered. Their religious system is quite defunct. Modern Judaism is "Rabbinical Judaism" (except the Karaite, but they're a different story). For nearly 2,000 years they have not offered the sacrifices required by the Law. Their priests serve a very vestigial role in their religious life. The main player for them now is the rabbi, who is not a priest but an elder layman who has no actually spiritual authority. He leads the synogogue due to his experience and knowledge. The central aspect of the Israelite faith, the Temple. has been completely removed from what we today call Judaism.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2011, 03:34:32 PM »

Well, Yakov Yurovsky at least was Lutheran.

And Don't even think of pressing this "false flag" nonsense. No Jew had anything to do with 9/11, except to be crushed by a falling building.
How sincere Yurovsky's conversion was, I know not. The fact that he worked with Jews G.P. Nikulin, P.Z. Yermakov, and S.P. Vaganov in the murder warrants some attention. What do you make of the Kabbalistic inscription found in the room of the Tsar's murder? 


Keble, who do you suspect was behind 9/11? What do you make of the celebrating Israeli's following the attacks?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8FlSWitOpg&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL5E9FA7EC5702C5D8
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2011, 03:36:31 PM »

^ Excellent points.  I wasn't disputing that social and cultural factors contributed, but I think I viewed Jetavan's "ritualistic detail" comment too exclusively through a liturgical lens.  I'm on board now!

Plus, I tend to argue with Jetavan out of habit (sorry, Jetavan :hi-five)
No problem. Cool

I agree that many modern Jews are not all that ritualistic, but I would suggest that the ritualism (and I use 'ritualism' in a neutral, rather than pejorative, sense) practiced by their ancestors can produce a non-religious, secular culture in which -- even though the religious beliefs are gone -- the cultural practices remain. Max Weber talked about a similar process occurring among Protestants, especially Calvinists, who initially tied "work" with "salvation"; but whose descendants (those American Yankee capitalists) lost the religious belief, but kept the emphasis upon "work, work, work" -- the "Protestant Work-Ethic", so called.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 03:37:28 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2011, 03:41:52 PM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbase out.

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust? Many men throughout history have held a bizarre assortment of beliefs (Tesla, Newton, etc.), but neither their worldviews (or personalities) should discredit the evidence provided.
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2011, 03:51:43 PM »

What is to be made of Elder Paisios and Elder Ephraim's writings concerning a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Christianity? Should they be ignored
Yes. They were monks, not politicians, political scientists, or historians. If someone told them a silly conspiracy theory, they'd probably believe it out of innocent ignorance. Like the innocent man who believed the feather that men brought to him was that of an angel.
God often relates prophecies to the glorified. In fact, Elder Paisios foretold that the Jewish-dominated West would lead a persecution against Christians, which in turn would cause Christians to unify. Saint Iaint posted a large segment of his writings :

http://christconquers.wordpress.com/2010/06/06/elder-paisios-against-zionists-and-cowardly-orthodox/
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2011, 04:00:28 PM »

Ioannis, why do you speak of 'Jew' and 'Zionist' as if they were synonyms?

Also, where does that letter of Elder Paisios come from?  Please give me the name of the work that it is taken from.  I have read much of Elder Paisios and have not come across that letter.  [Nevermind.  I have been informed that Esphigmenou Monastery has stated that it isn't the work of Elder Paisios.]
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 04:07:06 PM by Ionnis » Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2011, 04:14:55 PM »

Ioannis, why do you speak of 'Jew' and 'Zionist' as if they were synonyms?

Also, where does that letter of Elder Paisios come from?  Please give me the name of the work that it is taken from.  I have read much of Elder Paisios and have not come across that letter. 
While not always synonymous, the most prominent Zionists in western politics/economics, are often Jews themselves (many times possessing dual-Israeli citizenship).

It comes from the book Signs of the Times - 666. To the best of my knowledge, a full English translation has not yet been released.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.cartiortodoxe.ro/cartea-carte/129915-semnele-vremurilor---666-cuviosul-paisie-aghioritul.html&prev=_m

[Nevermind.  I have been informed that Esphigmenou Monastery has stated that it isn't the work of Elder Paisios.]
Where have you heard this?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 04:23:19 PM by Ioannis Climacus » Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,911


« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2011, 04:32:49 PM »

I didn't think Elder Paisios was associated with Esphigmenou. Paisios was a commemorator of the ecumenist EP, not a Zealot.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,153


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2011, 04:43:33 PM »

This thread started as a commentary on one specific SSPX Bishop Richard Williamson and his particular statements regarding the Jews. How does the general commentary on the Jews, Zionism, antisemitism, etc., that I've seen in the last several posts fit that subject?
Logged
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2011, 05:23:38 PM »

This thread started as a commentary on one specific SSPX Bishop Richard Williamson and his particular statements regarding the Jews. How does the general commentary on the Jews, Zionism, antisemitism, etc., that I've seen in the last several posts fit that subject?
This happens in about every thread dealing with anti-Semitism. It goes something like this :

Poster A : This is anti-Semitic and wrong.
Poster B : It's neither anti-Semitic nor wrong.
Poster A : How so?

etc.
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2011, 09:50:56 PM »

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust?

Because it's hearsay from someone who is below untrustworthy, obviously.
Logged
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2011, 10:05:36 PM »

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust?

Because it's hearsay from someone who is below untrustworthy, obviously.
That form of argument is known as ad hominem. The fact that the individual in question is a white supremacist (I take your word for it) has no bearing on whether or not his research adequately disproves the claims of Elie Wiesel.

Come on Keble, I expect more from the self-proclaimed "Grand Wizard".
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 10:07:23 PM by Ioannis Climacus » Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2011, 12:33:36 AM »

Well, Yakov Yurovsky at least was Lutheran.
Keble, who do you suspect was behind 9/11?

Those whom the 9/11 report names. The evidence against them is quote solid.

Quote
What do you make of the celebrating Israeli's following the attacks?

Nothing, really. Here is a much longer report of the "dancing Israelis" which is not exactly conclusive even as to what they did. I really cannot even raise this to the level of "suggestive"; it seems to me that it suggests a conspiracy linked to the destruction of the towers only if you are looking to confirm such a theory.

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust?

Because it's hearsay from someone who is below untrustworthy, obviously.
That form of argument is known as ad hominem. The fact that the individual in question is a white supremacist (I take your word for it) has no bearing on whether or not his research adequately disproves the claims of Elie Wiesel.

I don't think he did any research. These allegations of the "Miklos Gruner" wander from antisemite to antisemite, but their origin is obscure. There's no reference to the man in the news nor in books; I have not succeeded in finding a picture of the man. I am unwilling to take any of these people as witnesses to this man, and never mind whether I believe him.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2011, 01:13:56 AM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbase out.

You can read the article which appeared in the Hungarian newspaper here:
http://www.haon.hu/hirek/magyarorszag/cikk/meg-mindig-kiserti-a-halaltabor/cn/haon-news-FCUWeb-20090303-0604233755
or here:

http://kuruc.info/r/6/36390/
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2011, 10:13:34 AM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbage out.

You can read the article which appeared in the Hungarian newspaper here:
http://www.haon.hu/hirek/magyarorszag/cikk/meg-mindig-kiserti-a-halaltabor/cn/haon-news-FCUWeb-20090303-0604233755
or here:

http://kuruc.info/r/6/36390/

I can't read Hungarian, but since you apparently can, you could give us a translation and tell us a little about the sites that are posting these things.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2011, 05:49:18 PM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbage out.

You can read the article which appeared in the Hungarian newspaper here:
http://www.haon.hu/hirek/magyarorszag/cikk/meg-mindig-kiserti-a-halaltabor/cn/haon-news-FCUWeb-20090303-0604233755
or here:

http://kuruc.info/r/6/36390/

I can't read Hungarian, but since you apparently can, you could give us a translation and tell us a little about the sites that are posting these things.

There are translations of the article on the internet, and as well, there is an online translator (which is not all that good, but serves its purpose).
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2011, 07:26:18 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2011, 10:41:42 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?

Not exactly, no.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2011, 11:39:15 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?

Not exactly, no.

If one of my children said this, I'd assume that meant "yes".
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,963


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2011, 08:44:19 AM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )
Logged
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,911


« Reply #81 on: October 24, 2011, 11:44:15 AM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )

The weight of recognized academic opinion is that God doesn't exist. Just saying…
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,272


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2011, 11:50:03 AM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )

The weight of recognized academic opinion is that God doesn't exist. Just saying…

 Huh

(That's an invitation for clarification, btw  Wink)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 11:51:31 AM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,911


« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2011, 12:06:48 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )

The weight of recognized academic opinion is that God doesn't exist. Just saying…

 Huh

(That's an invitation for clarification, btw  Wink)

Nah, I just like stirring the pot. Wink

But on a serious note, no I am not certain that most academics don't believe in God. It just seems that way to me after spending six years in grad school…
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,272


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2011, 12:28:31 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )

The weight of recognized academic opinion is that God doesn't exist. Just saying…

 Huh

(That's an invitation for clarification, btw  Wink)

Nah, I just like stirring the pot. Wink

But on a serious note, no I am not certain that most academics don't believe in God. It just seems that way to me after spending six years in grad school…

You have my deepest sympathies  Grin!

And....you're probably right, given the general state of our institutions of "higher" learning these days  Sad.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,448


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2011, 03:13:29 PM »

Yes, the institutes of higher education seem to be degenerating to that of dog-like behavior.

At one local institution, one professor urinated on the door of another professor.

Lord Jesus Christ, come and save us.

Back on topic:

Bishop Williamson would do far better if he were to keep his mouth shut, except to preach Christ's death and Holy Resurrection.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 03:17:49 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,272


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2011, 03:22:27 PM »


Bishop Williamson would do far better if he were to keep his mouth shut, except to preach Christ's death and Holy Resurrection.

*All* bishops would do well to heed that advice.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,963


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2011, 03:24:22 PM »


Bishop Williamson would do far better if he were to keep his mouth shut, except to preach Christ's death and Holy Resurrection.

*All* bishops would do well to heed that advice.

Amen.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2011, 05:43:13 PM »

At one local institution, one professor urinated on the door of another professor.

Was the person who did such a gypsy from Romania?
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.156 seconds with 72 queries.