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Author Topic: Ravasi: "Atheists in Assisi? The Pope wanted them  (Read 2410 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 18, 2011, 03:12:33 AM »

"The Pope wanted the Atheists in Assisi." Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, president of the Pontifical Council for Culture, returning from Bucharest, where he received an honorary degree and has chaired a meeting of the "court of the gentiles", explains to reporters the programs and projects of his department. He also explains how the idea to invite some non-believers to Assisi for the interreligious prayer meeting for peace on the twenty-fifth anniversary of that led by John Paul II in 1986.
....
The four atheists who participate in Assisi are the French philosopher and psychoanalyst Julia Kristeva (who will speak before Benedict XVI), the Italian thinker philosophy professor at UCLA in Los Angeles Bodei Remo, the British philosopher Anthony Grayling, which established the New College of Letters and Philosophy, London, and Mexico's Guillermo Hurtado, founder of the second period of the history and philosophy magazine Dianoia. The day before the meeting in Assisi, October 26, the four will participate in a panel discussion in the main hall of the Rectorate of Roma 3 University.

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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2011, 08:36:15 AM »

The Church has a long history of engaging in discourse with those whose belief system denies the essential beliefs of the Church. St. John Damascene comes to mind. The fact that atheists are participating in a panel discussion strikes me as not a big deal not does their presence grant them some sort of 'equivalence'.
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2011, 09:03:08 AM »

The four atheists who participate in Assisi are the French philosopher and psychoanalyst Julia Kristeva (who will speak before Benedict XVI)
She might have called herself an atheist in the 1970s (though it might have been agnostic), but in 2007, she has published the book "Cet incroyable besoin de croire". ("That unbelievable need to believe"). I also saw newspaper articles and interviews where she makes it clear that she considers herself a member of the (Bulgarian) Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2011, 10:41:14 AM »

The four atheists who participate in Assisi are the French philosopher and psychoanalyst Julia Kristeva (who will speak before Benedict XVI)
She might have called herself an atheist in the 1970s (though it might have been agnostic), but in 2007, she has published the book "Cet incroyable besoin de croire". ("That unbelievable need to believe"). I also saw newspaper articles and interviews where she makes it clear that she considers herself a member of the (Bulgarian) Orthodox Church.

Adds support to my point! Thanks!
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2011, 10:42:44 AM »

The four atheists who participate in Assisi are the French philosopher and psychoanalyst Julia Kristeva (who will speak before Benedict XVI)
She might have called herself an atheist in the 1970s (though it might have been agnostic), but in 2007, she has published the book "Cet incroyable besoin de croire". ("That unbelievable need to believe"). I also saw newspaper articles and interviews where she makes it clear that she considers herself a member of the (Bulgarian) Orthodox Church.

Adds support to my point! Thanks!
How does it support your point?
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 10:53:08 AM »

The four atheists who participate in Assisi are the French philosopher and psychoanalyst Julia Kristeva (who will speak before Benedict XVI)
She might have called herself an atheist in the 1970s (though it might have been agnostic), but in 2007, she has published the book "Cet incroyable besoin de croire". ("That unbelievable need to believe"). I also saw newspaper articles and interviews where she makes it clear that she considers herself a member of the (Bulgarian) Orthodox Church.

Adds support to my point! Thanks!
How does it support your point?

The Church speaks Truth. She is not afraid to confront those who deny her or challenge her, as did St. John of Damascus. The alleged 'atheist' referenced by Gorazd is apparently one who akin to St. Paul on the road to Damascus, experienced an epiphany. I highly doubt that any atheistic professors participating in Assisi are there being viewed as 'moral equivalents' by the Pope. Were that the case, the sedevacantists would have a point.
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2011, 10:55:23 AM »

The four atheists who participate in Assisi are the French philosopher and psychoanalyst Julia Kristeva (who will speak before Benedict XVI)
She might have called herself an atheist in the 1970s (though it might have been agnostic), but in 2007, she has published the book "Cet incroyable besoin de croire". ("That unbelievable need to believe"). I also saw newspaper articles and interviews where she makes it clear that she considers herself a member of the (Bulgarian) Orthodox Church.
I heard that she supported intertextual marriage.
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Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2011, 11:55:06 AM »

The four atheists who participate in Assisi are the French philosopher and psychoanalyst Julia Kristeva (who will speak before Benedict XVI)
She might have called herself an atheist in the 1970s (though it might have been agnostic), but in 2007, she has published the book "Cet incroyable besoin de croire". ("That unbelievable need to believe"). I also saw newspaper articles and interviews where she makes it clear that she considers herself a member of the (Bulgarian) Orthodox Church.
I heard that she supported intertextual marriage.

I don't know of her other than what was posted here, but I would remind us that life is a journey and many atheists and agnostics take a long time to journey to the one Catholic faith, that which we call Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2011, 12:14:55 PM »

The four atheists who participate in Assisi are the French philosopher and psychoanalyst Julia Kristeva (who will speak before Benedict XVI)
She might have called herself an atheist in the 1970s (though it might have been agnostic), but in 2007, she has published the book "Cet incroyable besoin de croire". ("That unbelievable need to believe"). I also saw newspaper articles and interviews where she makes it clear that she considers herself a member of the (Bulgarian) Orthodox Church.
I heard that she supported intertextual marriage.
What is "intertexual marriage"? She has developped the method of intertexuality in literary science. In fact, it also is surprising that she is credited as a "philosopher and psychoanalyst" and not as a literary scientist, although she is best known for the latter.

In fact, her life story is quite complex, she grew up both with Orthodoxy and the communist's atheist propaganda in Bulgaria, later came to France where she soon established herself in intellectual circles etc.

Under communism, people were taught to call themselves atheists. Stating in public that you're a believer could cause you quite some disadvantages. As for Kristeva, strangely enough, although the regime let her move to France, she continued to hang out with communist-minded intellectuals there. Only later, she started that she feels drawn by the Orthodox Liturgy, that she feels at home in church etc.

The point of her 2007 work is: She finds herself drawn to belief, but rationally, intellectually, she doesn't understand why she does. I would think that is what Saint Paul meant by "unto the Greeks foolishness".

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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2011, 12:56:28 PM »

Intertextual marriage? Is that when two books get married?
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2011, 01:29:24 PM »

Intertextual marriage? Is that when two books get married?
And create baby books?
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2011, 02:01:32 PM »

Intertextual marriage can be another name for intertexuality:

The concept of intertextuality reminds us that each text exists in relation to others. In fact, texts owe more to other texts than to their own makers. Michel Foucault declared that:

"The frontiers of a book are never clear-cut: beyond the title, the first lines and the last full stop, beyond its internal configuration and its autonomous form, it is caught up in a system of references to other books, other texts, other sentences: it is a node within a network... The book is not simply the object that one holds in one's hands... Its unity is variable and relative."
....
The notion of intertextuality problematizes the idea of a text having boundaries and questions the dichotomy of 'inside' and 'outside': where does a text 'begin' and 'end'? What is 'text' and what is 'context'? The medium of television highlights this issue: it is productive to think of television in terms of a concept which Raymond Williams called 'flow' rather than as a series of discrete texts. Much the same applies to the World Wide Web, where hypertext links on a page can link it directly to many others. However, texts in any medium can be thought of in similar terms. The boundaries of texts are permeable. Each text exists within a vast 'society of texts' in various genres and media: no text is an island entire of itself. A useful semiotic technique is comparison and contrast between differing treatments of similar themes (or similar treatments of different themes), within or between different genres or media.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 02:01:58 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2011, 04:25:50 PM »

Intertextual marriage can be another name for intertexuality:

The concept of intertextuality reminds us that each text exists in relation to others. In fact, texts owe more to other texts than to their own makers. Michel Foucault declared that:

"The frontiers of a book are never clear-cut: beyond the title, the first lines and the last full stop, beyond its internal configuration and its autonomous form, it is caught up in a system of references to other books, other texts, other sentences: it is a node within a network... The book is not simply the object that one holds in one's hands... Its unity is variable and relative."
....
The notion of intertextuality problematizes the idea of a text having boundaries and questions the dichotomy of 'inside' and 'outside': where does a text 'begin' and 'end'? What is 'text' and what is 'context'? The medium of television highlights this issue: it is productive to think of television in terms of a concept which Raymond Williams called 'flow' rather than as a series of discrete texts. Much the same applies to the World Wide Web, where hypertext links on a page can link it directly to many others. However, texts in any medium can be thought of in similar terms. The boundaries of texts are permeable. Each text exists within a vast 'society of texts' in various genres and media: no text is an island entire of itself. A useful semiotic technique is comparison and contrast between differing treatments of similar themes (or similar treatments of different themes), within or between different genres or media.



Huh? I see sentences and words but that's about it...Must be over my pay scale!  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2011, 06:06:48 PM »

The four atheists who participate in Assisi are the French philosopher and psychoanalyst Julia Kristeva (who will speak before Benedict XVI)
She might have called herself an atheist in the 1970s (though it might have been agnostic), but in 2007, she has published the book "Cet incroyable besoin de croire". ("That unbelievable need to believe"). I also saw newspaper articles and interviews where she makes it clear that she considers herself a member of the (Bulgarian) Orthodox Church.

Amazon has an interesting critique by Robert C. Hamilton of her work translated from the French into English: This Incredible Need to Believe (European Perspectives: A Series in Social Thought and Cultural Criticism)

I quoted from two sentences of it, and bolded one part concerning her beliefs, so is she an Orthodox Christian?

"Perhaps surprisingly, the book remains close to the thoroughly atheist work of Sigmund Freud, with particular attention paid to late works like Moses and Monotheism. . . . Instead, remaining close to Freud's work and constantly re-affirming his atheism (and, presumably, her own - she denies being "a believer" several times), she argues that religion is better understood as "sublimation" than as delusion or neurosis."

Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/This-Incredible-Believe-European-Perspectives/dp/0231147856/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318974828&sr=1-6

Has anyone read her original work in the French?



« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 06:18:22 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2011, 06:56:36 PM »

Knowing only the original French and not the English translation, I do not understand how Robert C. Hamilton comes to the conclusion that she "affirms her own atheism" in the book. In fact, one of the main statements of the book is that faith is naturally part of all human beings.


As for her claiming to be a non believer, here is an original French quote by Kristeva
"Je me considère comme une non croyante. Mais si le lien à Dieu est celui du Cantique des cantiques, je suis prête à le partager."

And my translation
"I consider myself to be a non believer. But if the link with God is the one from the Song of Songs, I am ready to share it."

Here is a summary of the book (in French):
http://www.e-litterature.net/publier2/spip/spip.php?page=article5&id_article=498


Interestingly, the translation linked to by Maria has appeared in a series called "European perspectives". I wonder if Europeans and Americans still understand each other nowadays, but that would be another discussion.

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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 02:25:58 AM »

Well, being an atheist, and being a non-believer, are two different things.
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 02:36:47 AM »

too bad Francis isn't here...
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 02:40:47 AM »

too bad Francis isn't here...
Oh, but he is.
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2011, 07:56:17 AM »

British philosopher A C Grayling has withdrawn from attending an interreligious event to promote world peace hosted by the Vatican.

Although the professor of philosophy had originally planned to attend the third “Prayer for Peace” in Assisi, Italy, he later changed his mind on discovering that it was an event for pilgrims.

Professor Grayling told The Catholic Herald: “I thought it was originally to have a discussion with the Pope about the place of religion in society but then it turned out it was a minor event and what they wanted was these guests to accompany the Pope on a pilgrimage. So I decided to withdraw.”
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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