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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson lashes out against the Jews again  (Read 10658 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 20, 2011, 01:32:24 PM »

Oh, brother.

The dissident Catholic bishop Richard Williamson, who caused an outcry in 2009 after publicly denying the Holocaust in a TV interview whilst being readmitted into the fold of the Catholic Church by the Vatican, has publicly criticized Pope Benedict XVI for absolving Jews of age-old charges of ‘deicide’. In his weekly web blog ‘Eleison Comments’, Williamson – one of four bishops of the ultra-conservative Catholic breakaway group Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) – writes that “the killing of Jesus was truly ‘deicide’” and that “only the Jews (leaders and people) were the prime agents of the deicide because it is obvious from the Gospels that the Gentile most involved, Pontius Pilate, would never have condemned Jesus to death had not the Jewish leaders roused the Jewish people to clamour for his crucifixion.”

But wait, there's more!

Reiterating the century-old belief in Christian circles that even today’s Jews are to be held responsible for the death of Jesus, Williamson writes: “But [19th century Pope] Leo XIII is by no means alone in observing such a continuity amongst Jews down the centuries. Do they themselves not lay claim today to the land of Palestine on the grounds that it is theirs by right from the God of the Old Testament? Has there ever been a race-people-nation on the face of the earth more proudly self-identifying as identical down the ages? Originally raised by God to cradle the Messiah, alas, when he came they refused, collectively to recognize him.”

Ultimately...

Williamson, who after his Holocaust denial was asked in 2009 by the Vatican to recant in order to exercise episcopal functions and has been sidelined even by the leadership of the SSPX, ends his column by saying that the Jews “until they convert at the end of the world, as the Church has always taught they will do [...] they seem bound to choose to go on acting, collectively, as enemies of the true Messiah.”
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 01:34:43 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 02:12:30 PM »

Good on Bishop Williamson for not caving into political correctness (and believing what the fathers of the Church actually taught).
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 02:31:10 PM »

See this thread link given by the World Jewish Congress (WJC):
http://www.angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39340&sid=f66b2373fe0421ea5c10700b568932aa

However, this thread in Angelqueen.org does not identify tjc with Bishop Williamson.

So then, who is this tjc, from whom the WJC gets its lead story?
This sloppy news reporting by WJC (quoting a poster in a forum), shows their bias.

In yet another thread at Angelqueen.org at http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39374
there is a link provided to the Vatican Insider concerning Williamson.

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/world-news/detail/articolo/9033/

I think Vatican Insider may be less biased than the World Jewish Congress.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 02:39:30 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 02:36:55 PM »

Good on Bishop Williamson for not caving into political correctness (and believing what the fathers of the Church actually taught).

 Huh Huh  Sarcasm, right?
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 02:50:13 PM »

Here is the link to subscribe to Bishop Williamson's Eleison Comments to view his weekly addresses.
If one wishes to receive it, subscription is free.

http://www.dinoscopus.org/

This is not an endorsement, rather it explains why the WJC has not linked directly to the Bishop's blog, but instead quotes from unreliable second-hand sources, like forum posters.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 02:51:48 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 03:00:20 PM »

Here is the link to subscribe to Bishop Williamson's Eleison Comments to view his weekly addresses.
If one wishes to receive it, subscription is free.

http://www.dinoscopus.org/

This is not an endorsement, rather it explains why the WJC has not linked directly to the Bishop's blog, but instead quotes from unreliable second-hand sources, like forum posters.

Does this mean you've read his original statements and they vary from what's been quoted here and on Angelqueen.org?  If so, how?  Can you link his original statement?
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2011, 03:09:54 PM »

Here is the link to subscribe to Bishop Williamson's Eleison Comments to view his weekly addresses.
If one wishes to receive it, subscription is free.

http://www.dinoscopus.org/

This is not an endorsement, rather it explains why the WJC has not linked directly to the Bishop's blog, but instead quotes from unreliable second-hand sources, like forum posters.

Does this mean you've read his original statements and they vary from what's been quoted here and on Angelqueen.org?  If so, how?  Can you link his original statement?

I have neither subscribed to Eleison Comments, the primary source, nor do I intend to do so.
Instead, I provided the link should you want to subscribe to the thing and verify that information for yourself.
However, I think that the Vatican Insider, a secondary source, might be less biased than the WJC, a tertiary source.

Sheesh. I cannot believe the sloppy journalistic practices displayed by WJC.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 03:14:57 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2011, 03:16:58 PM »

Here's the Vatican Insider story, which doesn't seem to differ from WJC's story:

The Lefebvrist Bishop, Richard Williamson, tries again. On the eve of the Interrelligious meeting convened in Assisi by Pope Benedict XVI - where the participation of the chief rabbi of Rome, Riccardo Di Segni, is already in doubt - and while the congregation to which he belongs, the Society of Saint Pius X, discusses whether to accept the conciliation proposal from the Vatican, the traditionalist bishop makes himself heard once again, and takes aim at one of his perennial targets: the Jews.

They are guilty of "deicide" and "continue to act collectively as enemies of the true Messiah," he writes in the latest edition of his weekly newsletter, the Eleison Comments. "How can the Pope to abandon these truths that are so ancient?", asks the lefebvrist Bishop.
....
At the origin of Bishop Williamson's new attack is something written by Pope Benedict XVI in his book "Light of the world": that the Jews can not be held responsible for 'deicide', or the death of Jesus on the cross.
....
Finally, according to the Lefebvrist bishop, at least one modern pope, Leo XIII, explicitly affirmed the "solidarity" between the Jews "who clamored for the killing of Jesus" and Jews of today, in the act of consecrating the world to the sacred heart of Jesus, with the Encyclical Annum Sacrum of 1899.
....
But this "continuity", according to Williamson, is shared by the Jews themselves today, who not by chance "claim for themselves the land of Palestine because it is theirs by right from the God of the Old Testament." "Has there ever been a race-people-nation on the face of the earth more proudly self-identifying as identical down the ages?".

 
 
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2011, 03:24:51 PM »

After viewing the articles in the WJC and the Vatican Insider, I wonder if the WJC copied directly from the Vatican Insider but only linked to that thread at angelqueen.org. Obviously by not following the best practices in journalism, World Jewish Congress has lost all credibility.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 03:27:18 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2011, 03:28:25 PM »

Here is the link to subscribe to Bishop Williamson's Eleison Comments to view his weekly addresses.
If one wishes to receive it, subscription is free.

http://www.dinoscopus.org/

This is not an endorsement, rather it explains why the WJC has not linked directly to the Bishop's blog, but instead quotes from unreliable second-hand sources, like forum posters.

Does this mean you've read his original statements and they vary from what's been quoted here and on Angelqueen.org?  If so, how?  Can you link his original statement?

I have neither subscribed to Eleison Comments, the primary source, nor do I intend to do so.
Instead, I provided the link should you want to subscribe to the thing and verify that information for yourself.
However, I think that the Vatican Insider, a secondary source, might be less biased than the WJC, a tertiary source.

Sheesh. I cannot believe the sloppy journalistic practices displayed by WJC.

Okay.  You kinda made it sound as if you'd read the original, that's why I asked.  I went ahead and subscribed to it and asked for the back issue for the week of May 16, 2011.  I prefer primary sources, when available, to secondary and certainly to tertiary!  By that point, it starts getting to be like that old game, "Telephone"  Wink.

Not very professional of the WJC to quote an internet discussion forum without providing access to the original comments.  Oh well....
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2011, 03:43:24 PM »

Oh, brother.

The dissident Catholic bishop Richard Williamson, who caused an outcry in 2009 after publicly denying the Holocaust in a TV interview whilst being readmitted into the fold of the Catholic Church by the Vatican, has publicly criticized Pope Benedict XVI for absolving Jews of age-old charges of ‘deicide’. In his weekly web blog ‘Eleison Comments’, Williamson – one of four bishops of the ultra-conservative Catholic breakaway group Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) – writes that “the killing of Jesus was truly ‘deicide’” and that “only the Jews (leaders and people) were the prime agents of the deicide because it is obvious from the Gospels that the Gentile most involved, Pontius Pilate, would never have condemned Jesus to death had not the Jewish leaders roused the Jewish people to clamour for his crucifixion.”

But wait, there's more!

Reiterating the century-old belief in Christian circles that even today’s Jews are to be held responsible for the death of Jesus, Williamson writes: “But [19th century Pope] Leo XIII is by no means alone in observing such a continuity amongst Jews down the centuries. Do they themselves not lay claim today to the land of Palestine on the grounds that it is theirs by right from the God of the Old Testament? Has there ever been a race-people-nation on the face of the earth more proudly self-identifying as identical down the ages? Originally raised by God to cradle the Messiah, alas, when he came they refused, collectively to recognize him.”

Ultimately...

Williamson, who after his Holocaust denial was asked in 2009 by the Vatican to recant in order to exercise episcopal functions and has been sidelined even by the leadership of the SSPX, ends his column by saying that the Jews “until they convert at the end of the world, as the Church has always taught they will do [...] they seem bound to choose to go on acting, collectively, as enemies of the true Messiah.”

In the interests of "equal time", there is also this:

December 22, 2010, 1:30 pm
A Greek Bishop’s Anti-Semitic Tirade
By ROBERT MACKEY
Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus. Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus.

Updated | 7:19 p.m. Leaders of Greece’s small Jewish community objected on Wednesday to televised remarks by a Greek Orthodox bishop who blamed the country’s financial problems on a conspiracy of Jewish bankers and claimed that the Holocaust was orchestrated by Zionists.
  from here: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/a-greek-bishops-anti-semitic-tirade/

His comments were condemned by many in both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, by the way.

I only post that so that people don't get the impression that anti-semitism is limited to extremist Catholic bishops.  There is a very long, horrific, sad history of anti-semitism in both Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  When it comes from uneducated, often illiterate peasants, it is one thing, but no less horrific.  But when it comes from bishops, who really should know much, much better, it's something altogether far worse!

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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2011, 04:05:01 PM »

I think it's silly that all these folks that attack Jews for "committing Deicide" dont even realize that if it wasn't for those Jews, Jesus would not have ever died for us (and raised again). We'd still be dead in our sin. What a tool.

PP
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2011, 04:08:20 PM »

I think it's silly that all these folks that attack Jews for "committing Deicide" dont even realize that if it wasn't for those Jews, Jesus would not have ever died for us (and raised again). We'd still be dead in our sin. What a tool.

PP
And yet, even though we rejoice in the salvation wrought by His death and resurrection, even a cursory reading of our hymnography for Holy Thursday will show how we still pillory Judas Iscariot for betraying our Savior to death.
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2011, 04:10:02 PM »

I think it's silly that all these folks that attack Jews for "committing Deicide" dont even realize that if it wasn't for those Jews, Jesus would not have ever died for us (and raised again). We'd still be dead in our sin. What a tool.

PP
And yet, even though we rejoice in the salvation wrought by His death and resurrection, even a cursory reading of our hymnography for Holy Thursday will show how we still pillory Judas Iscariot for betraying our Savior to death.
So is it wrong for me to not despise judas? I pity him terribly. But I dont hate him.


PP
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2011, 04:21:43 PM »

I think it's silly that all these folks that attack Jews for "committing Deicide" dont even realize that if it wasn't for those Jews, Jesus would not have ever died for us (and raised again). We'd still be dead in our sin. What a tool.
And yet, even though we rejoice in the salvation wrought by His death and resurrection, even a cursory reading of our hymnography for Holy Thursday will show how we still pillory Judas Iscariot for betraying our Savior to death.

Right.  Many others, including authors of scripture and saints, must've failed to "realize" this debt of gratitude as well.

Williamson may lack discernment and tact, but he doesn't seem to be espousing a belief of innovation.
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2011, 04:24:11 PM »

So is it wrong for me to not despise judas? I pity him terribly. But I dont hate him.

No, you're good, but you're also not supposed to thank him for taking place in the process that led to our potential resurrection.  That was the impression your assessment of certain Jews leading to Christ's death gave.
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2011, 04:27:42 PM »

Oh, brother.

The dissident Catholic bishop Richard Williamson, who caused an outcry in 2009 after publicly denying the Holocaust in a TV interview whilst being readmitted into the fold of the Catholic Church by the Vatican, has publicly criticized Pope Benedict XVI for absolving Jews of age-old charges of ‘deicide’. In his weekly web blog ‘Eleison Comments’, Williamson – one of four bishops of the ultra-conservative Catholic breakaway group Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) – writes that “the killing of Jesus was truly ‘deicide’” and that “only the Jews (leaders and people) were the prime agents of the deicide because it is obvious from the Gospels that the Gentile most involved, Pontius Pilate, would never have condemned Jesus to death had not the Jewish leaders roused the Jewish people to clamour for his crucifixion.”

But wait, there's more!

Reiterating the century-old belief in Christian circles that even today’s Jews are to be held responsible for the death of Jesus, Williamson writes: “But [19th century Pope] Leo XIII is by no means alone in observing such a continuity amongst Jews down the centuries. Do they themselves not lay claim today to the land of Palestine on the grounds that it is theirs by right from the God of the Old Testament? Has there ever been a race-people-nation on the face of the earth more proudly self-identifying as identical down the ages? Originally raised by God to cradle the Messiah, alas, when he came they refused, collectively to recognize him.”

Ultimately...

Williamson, who after his Holocaust denial was asked in 2009 by the Vatican to recant in order to exercise episcopal functions and has been sidelined even by the leadership of the SSPX, ends his column by saying that the Jews “until they convert at the end of the world, as the Church has always taught they will do [...] they seem bound to choose to go on acting, collectively, as enemies of the true Messiah.”

In the interests of "equal time", there is also this:

December 22, 2010, 1:30 pm
A Greek Bishop’s Anti-Semitic Tirade
By ROBERT MACKEY
Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus. Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus.

Updated | 7:19 p.m. Leaders of Greece’s small Jewish community objected on Wednesday to televised remarks by a Greek Orthodox bishop who blamed the country’s financial problems on a conspiracy of Jewish bankers and claimed that the Holocaust was orchestrated by Zionists.
  from here: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/a-greek-bishops-anti-semitic-tirade/

His comments were condemned by many in both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, by the way.

I only post that so that people don't get the impression that anti-semitism is limited to extremist Catholic bishops.  There is a very long, horrific, sad history of anti-semitism in both Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  When it comes from uneducated, often illiterate peasants, it is one thing, but no less horrific.  But when it comes from bishops, who really should know much, much better, it's something altogether far worse!
Emphasis mine.

How is either Bishop Williamson's or Metropolitan Seraphim's statements "anti-Semitic"? The former has only reiterated the teachings of the Church fathers (St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, St. Gregory of Nyssa, etc.) while the latter has merely expressed reality as he sees it. Notice that Metropolitan Seraphim never expresses hatred or contempt towards Jewish people. In his "famous" television interview, he states "We are against systems, not individuals".
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2011, 04:45:06 PM »

Oh, brother.

The dissident Catholic bishop Richard Williamson, who caused an outcry in 2009 after publicly denying the Holocaust in a TV interview whilst being readmitted into the fold of the Catholic Church by the Vatican, has publicly criticized Pope Benedict XVI for absolving Jews of age-old charges of ‘deicide’. In his weekly web blog ‘Eleison Comments’, Williamson – one of four bishops of the ultra-conservative Catholic breakaway group Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) – writes that “the killing of Jesus was truly ‘deicide’” and that “only the Jews (leaders and people) were the prime agents of the deicide because it is obvious from the Gospels that the Gentile most involved, Pontius Pilate, would never have condemned Jesus to death had not the Jewish leaders roused the Jewish people to clamour for his crucifixion.”

But wait, there's more!

Reiterating the century-old belief in Christian circles that even today’s Jews are to be held responsible for the death of Jesus, Williamson writes: “But [19th century Pope] Leo XIII is by no means alone in observing such a continuity amongst Jews down the centuries. Do they themselves not lay claim today to the land of Palestine on the grounds that it is theirs by right from the God of the Old Testament? Has there ever been a race-people-nation on the face of the earth more proudly self-identifying as identical down the ages? Originally raised by God to cradle the Messiah, alas, when he came they refused, collectively to recognize him.”

Ultimately...

Williamson, who after his Holocaust denial was asked in 2009 by the Vatican to recant in order to exercise episcopal functions and has been sidelined even by the leadership of the SSPX, ends his column by saying that the Jews “until they convert at the end of the world, as the Church has always taught they will do [...] they seem bound to choose to go on acting, collectively, as enemies of the true Messiah.”

In the interests of "equal time", there is also this:

December 22, 2010, 1:30 pm
A Greek Bishop’s Anti-Semitic Tirade
By ROBERT MACKEY
Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus. Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus.

Updated | 7:19 p.m. Leaders of Greece’s small Jewish community objected on Wednesday to televised remarks by a Greek Orthodox bishop who blamed the country’s financial problems on a conspiracy of Jewish bankers and claimed that the Holocaust was orchestrated by Zionists.
 from here: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/a-greek-bishops-anti-semitic-tirade/

His comments were condemned by many in both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, by the way.

I only post that so that people don't get the impression that anti-semitism is limited to extremist Catholic bishops.  There is a very long, horrific, sad history of anti-semitism in both Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  When it comes from uneducated, often illiterate peasants, it is one thing, but no less horrific.  But when it comes from bishops, who really should know much, much better, it's something altogether far worse!
Emphasis mine.

How is either Bishop Williamson's or Metropolitan Seraphim's statements "anti-Semitic"? The former has only reiterated the teachings of the Church fathers (St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, St. Gregory of Nyssa, etc.) while the latter has merely expressed reality as he sees it. Notice that Metropolitan Seraphim never expresses hatred or contempt towards Jewish people. In his "famous" television interview, he states "We are against systems, not individuals".

The former:  Perhaps "anti-semitism" *might* be too strong, although it could very easily be interpreted as such.  However, I think his comments are a little less benign than how you portray them, even though there is some historical truth in what he says.

The latter: "Expressing reality as he sees it?"  Is he deluded?
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2011, 05:12:18 PM »

The latter: "Expressing reality as he sees it?"  Is he deluded?
No, I would be willing to say the media has deluded most people into rejecting the obvious (i.e. what Metroplitan Seraphim has said). Political correctness has very much distorted our understanding of the world. We can become so emotionally moved that we fail to notice the reality. Let me further explain :

The Jews funded the Nazi's. Regardless of the amount of evidence supporting this claim, it will certainly initiate an emotional response. The media has planted in the minds of all that such statements are anti-Semitic.

The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This is also easily demonstrable with evidence, yet no one would accuse you of being anti-Japanese for uttering it. It is simply a historical fact (and it does not necessitate political motivation).

The Turks committed genocide against the Armenian people. Am I expressing anti-Turkish sentiment? Does it imply that every Turk took part in the murder? No, it is a simple recognition of historical reality.

Since when did the Jews become the most innocent people on earth? I can criticize the English, the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese, the Egyptians, etc. for every wrong they have ever committed and yet I am not seen as "prejudiced", but the moment I bring up Jewish wrongs, I am lambasted by the media and ostracized from society.

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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2011, 05:17:15 PM »

I think it's silly that all these folks that attack Jews for "committing Deicide" dont even realize that if it wasn't for those Jews, Jesus would not have ever died for us (and raised again). We'd still be dead in our sin. What a tool.

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And yet, even though we rejoice in the salvation wrought by His death and resurrection, even a cursory reading of our hymnography for Holy Thursday will show how we still pillory Judas Iscariot for betraying our Savior to death.
So is it wrong for me to not despise judas? I pity him terribly. But I dont hate him.
Not the point I'm trying to make. Yes, we rejoice in the events that brought about our salvation, but we also recognize the heinous sins of man that put Jesus on the cross.
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2011, 05:19:18 PM »


The Jews funded the Nazis.
lol wut
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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2011, 05:22:33 PM »

The latter: "Expressing reality as he sees it?"  Is he deluded?

The Jews funded the Nazi's. Regardless of the amount of evidence supporting this claim, it will certainly initiate an emotional response. The media has planted in the minds of all that such statements are anti-Semitic.


Since when did the Jews become the most innocent people on earth? I can criticize the English, the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese, the Egyptians, etc. for every wrong they have ever committed and yet I am not seen as "prejudiced", but the moment I bring up Jewish wrongs, I am lambasted by the media and ostracized from society.


Jews funded the Nazis? Can you provide proof of this, beyond, say 1935?  Did they also finance the building of the concentration camps?  That's a little like claiming Jesus committed suicide because he was a Jew and the Jews committed deicide, ergo....  Interesting.

I don't recall *anyone* saying the Jews were "the most innocent people on earth".  Ever.  Where'd you get that idea?

You're lambasted by media and ostracized from society for bringing up "Jewish wrongs"?  Perhaps for good reason.  Which "wrongs" would those be?
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2011, 05:30:46 PM »

The latter: "Expressing reality as he sees it?"  Is he deluded?
No, I would be willing to say the media has deluded most people into rejecting the obvious (i.e. what Metroplitan Seraphim has said). Political correctness has very much distorted our understanding of the world. We can become so emotionally moved that we fail to notice the reality. Let me further explain :

The Jews funded the Nazi's. Regardless of the amount of evidence supporting this claim, it will certainly initiate an emotional response. The media has planted in the minds of all that such statements are anti-Semitic.

The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This is also easily demonstrable with evidence, yet no one would accuse you of being anti-Japanese for uttering it. It is simply a historical fact (and it does not necessitate political motivation).

When someone says "the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor" he usually means the Japanese government/ military. When someone like Williamson says "the Jews are guilty of deicide" ("collectively" he says) he usually means... The. Jews. Not the Pharisees, not the 1st century Jews in Jerusalem. The Jews! I get the feeling that someone who blames today's Jews for what happened 2000 years ago, when asked what he thinks about white Americans paying reparations for slavery, will throw up his arms and say "That was 200 years ago! Get over it! White people living today didn't enslave them!"

And everyone just cut the "political correctness" crap already. Complaining about "political correctness" is one of the most politically correct things one can do. You can get away with saying almost anything as long as you preface it with some moaning about political correctness. It gives a lot of ideas a mystique of persecution to distract from the fact that they're just BS.
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2011, 06:08:25 PM »

Jews funded the Nazis? Can you provide proof of this, beyond, say 1935?
Why did you edit your post to "beyond 1935"? The fact Jewish bankers would support an anti-Semitic party (such as the National Socialists) at any time should be disgusting.

As pointed out by Rabbi Israel :

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/a17cfed68ca9ddd08417100cfdf5e803.jpg

German chancellor Heinrich Brüning stated :

"I didn't, and do not even today for understandable reasons, wish to reveal from October 1928, the two largest regular contributors to the Nazi Party were the general managers of two of the largest Berlin banks, both of Jewish faith and one of them the leader of Zionism in Germany".

New York Times :

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/a8cd57ff2dc6552fb5b18ff38bd8ee24.jpg
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/3f0b795b271b836f3ac5d826877461e1.jpg
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/843ac3d79565700c3f8ef0ad4fd03a0d.jpg

Did they also finance the building of the concentration camps?  That's a little like claiming Jesus committed suicide because he was a Jew and the Jews committed deicide, ergo....  Interesting.
Ultimately, Jewish leadership was willing to do whatever necessary in getting the ball rolling again (so to speak) for Zionism.

As I have said before, not ever Jew is responsible just as ever Turk is not responsible for the Armenian genocide. Despite this, we do not hesitate to say the Turks did this or the Turks did that. Jewish guilt in the death of Jesus is based on adherence to the Pharisaical religion that killed him. A Jew who rejects Judaism is simply not responsible.

I don't recall *anyone* saying the Jews were "the most innocent people on earth".  Ever.  Where'd you get that idea?
The media pushes that idea pretty often actually. When was the last time you heard about Jewish wrongs on television or in the newspaper?

You're lambasted by media and ostracized from society for bringing up "Jewish wrongs"?  Perhaps for good reason.  Which "wrongs" would those be?
Off the top of my head? Genocide against the Palestinians, the false-flag operation known as 9/11, murder of the Russian Tsar (and creation of the Soviet Union), the Lavon affair, the USS Liberty incident.
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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2011, 06:16:27 PM »

When someone says "the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor" he usually means the Japanese government/ military.
And I am referencing the actions taken by the Jewish "leaders", i.e the bankers, the media, the politicians, the lobbyists, etc.

When someone like Williamson says "the Jews are guilty of deicide" ("collectively" he says) he usually means... The. Jews. Not the Pharisees, not the 1st century Jews in Jerusalem. The Jews!
Jewish guilt is not derived from some sort of ethnic connection. Adhering to the religion that killed Christ (Pharisaical Judaism) makes one "responsible".

And everyone just cut the "political correctness" crap already. Complaining about "political correctness" is one of the most politically correct things one can do. You can get away with saying almost anything as long as you preface it with some moaning about political correctness. It gives a lot of ideas a mystique of persecution to distract from the fact that they're just BS.
How is condemning "political correctness" politically correct? You will have to elaborate on this one - I honestly have no clue what you are talking about.
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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2011, 06:42:16 PM »

Jews funded the Nazis? Can you provide proof of this, beyond, say 1935?
Why did you edit your post to "beyond 1935"? The fact Jewish bankers would support an anti-Semitic party (such as the National Socialists) at any time should be disgusting.

As pointed out by Rabbi Israel :

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/a17cfed68ca9ddd08417100cfdf5e803.jpg

German chancellor Heinrich Brüning stated :

"I didn't, and do not even today for understandable reasons, wish to reveal from October 1928, the two largest regular contributors to the Nazi Party were the general managers of two of the largest Berlin banks, both of Jewish faith and one of them the leader of Zionism in Germany".

New York Times :

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/a8cd57ff2dc6552fb5b18ff38bd8ee24.jpg
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/3f0b795b271b836f3ac5d826877461e1.jpg
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/843ac3d79565700c3f8ef0ad4fd03a0d.jpg

Did they also finance the building of the concentration camps?  That's a little like claiming Jesus committed suicide because he was a Jew and the Jews committed deicide, ergo....  Interesting.
Ultimately, Jewish leadership was willing to do whatever necessary in getting the ball rolling again (so to speak) for Zionism.

As I have said before, not ever Jew is responsible just as ever Turk is not responsible for the Armenian genocide. Despite this, we do not hesitate to say the Turks did this or the Turks did that. Jewish guilt in the death of Jesus is based on adherence to the Pharisaical religion that killed him. A Jew who rejects Judaism is simply not responsible.

I don't recall *anyone* saying the Jews were "the most innocent people on earth".  Ever.  Where'd you get that idea?
The media pushes that idea pretty often actually. When was the last time you heard about Jewish wrongs on television or in the newspaper?

You're lambasted by media and ostracized from society for bringing up "Jewish wrongs"?  Perhaps for good reason.  Which "wrongs" would those be?
Off the top of my head? Genocide against the Palestinians, the false-flag operation known as 9/11, murder of the Russian Tsar (and creation of the Soviet Union), the Lavon affair, the USS Liberty incident.
I'm not sure you've ever answered my question regarding why you're so quick to take the alternative media at face value. Your standard response of questioning my apparent quickness to accept the mainstream media at face value does not count as an answer.
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« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2011, 06:51:35 PM »

When someone says "the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor" he usually means the Japanese government/ military.
And I am referencing the actions taken by the Jewish "leaders", i.e the bankers, the media, the politicians, the lobbyists, etc.

Evidently you disagree with Williamson then and his use of the term "collectively".

Quote
When someone like Williamson says "the Jews are guilty of deicide" ("collectively" he says) he usually means... The. Jews. Not the Pharisees, not the 1st century Jews in Jerusalem. The Jews!
Jewish guilt is not derived from some sort of ethnic connection. Adhering to the religion that killed Christ (Pharisaical Judaism) makes one "responsible".

So why do non-religious Jews still end up in the gas chambers?

Quote
And everyone just cut the "political correctness" crap already. Complaining about "political correctness" is one of the most politically correct things one can do. You can get away with saying almost anything as long as you preface it with some moaning about political correctness. It gives a lot of ideas a mystique of persecution to distract from the fact that they're just BS.
How is condemning "political correctness" politically correct? You will have to elaborate on this one - I honestly have no clue what you are talking about.

Complaining about "political correctness" has been done by pretty much everyone in politics for sundry purposes. Since the 90's it tends to come from the same sort of "conservatives" who complain about "liberal media" and the "liberal elite" i.e. members and supporters of a certain segment of the elite who want to project an image of being persecuted outsiders. When someone says, "This may not be politically correct, but..." it's usually a way of saying "I'm about to say some racist crap and don't you dare critique it." Any substantive engagement with criticism can be avoided by talk of "political correctness."

Offending people is cool now which is why a mediocre show like Family Guy is incredibly popular and lucrative. The humor might suck but, hey, it's "politically incorrect". I guess holocaust deniers also want to ride this wave of political incorrectness but fortunately it doesn't pay off- there are some limits to this stupidity.
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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2011, 07:06:07 PM »

I'm not sure you've ever answered my question regarding why you're so quick to take the alternative media at face value. Your standard response of questioning my apparent quickness to accept the mainstream media at face value does not count as an answer.
I believe you have inaccurately recalled the details of the thread in question. I asked you if you applied the same scrutiny to mainstream media, you said yes. You then asked me if I accept alternative media at face value. I responded no, but I appreciate a balance in views. The conversation ended there.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40078.msg650528.html#msg650528
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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2011, 07:23:23 PM »

Evidently you disagree with Williamson then and his use of the term "collectively".
No, we are talking about two different associations. I agree with Bishop Williamson's views on collective guilt (i.e. Jews, that is practitioners of the Jewish religion, are responsible for the death of Christ). Jews by virtue of ethnicity, however, are not guilty of every crime committed by their leaders.

So why do non-religious Jews still end up in the gas chambers?
Gas chambers?

If you are referencing the German labor camps, then it is quite simply different criteria for what defines a Jew. The Germans (for the most part) said it was racial (as do the Jews), whereas the Christian criticism of Jewry is rooted in religious adherence.

Complaining about "political correctness" has been done by pretty much everyone in politics for sundry purposes. Since the 90's it tends to come from the same sort of "conservatives" who complain about "liberal media" and the "liberal elite" i.e. members and supporters of a certain segment of the elite who want to project an image of being persecuted outsiders. When someone says, "This may not be politically correct, but..." it's usually a way of saying "I'm about to say some racist crap and don't you dare critique it." Any substantive engagement with criticism can be avoided by talk of "political correctness."

Offending people is cool now which is why a mediocre show like Family Guy is incredibly popular and lucrative. The humor might suck but, hey, it's "politically incorrect". I guess holocaust deniers also want to ride this wave of political incorrectness but fortunately it doesn't pay off- there are some limits to this stupidity.
I fail to see how this furthers your arguments. Sure, many self proclaimed "conservatives" criticize "political correctness" quite regularly, but that does not negates the validity of said criticism. In fact, arguing the opposite would be more logical (i.e. political correctness is used to shut people up).

Just make your point, Iconodule - no one is hindering you in that.
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2011, 08:29:29 PM »

Quote from: Ioannis Climacus
The Jews funded the Nazi's.

What color is the sky in your world?  Huh
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« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2011, 08:42:57 PM »

Quote from: Ioannis Climacus
The Jews funded the Nazi's.

What color is the sky in your world?  Huh
That depends upon both perspective and time of day.

It is a well established fact that Jewish bankers funded Adolf Hitler. Scroll up to my earlier posts. Both a pre-Nazi German chancellor and a rabbi condemn the actions of the Zionist bankers.
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2011, 11:24:14 AM »

Wow!  It's like deja-vu all over again, here  Roll Eyes Sad .

Perhaps, being a Jew, knowing some real history, having traveled extensively, having "been around the block" more than a few times, having served in the (not *totally* Jewish) Israel Defense Force, and having lived with real survivors of the real Holocaust, etc., I'm just too close to this.  Or, perhaps not.  No matter. 

Unfortunately, I recall another thread about all of this that rapidly devolved into something ugly.  And I, for one, am not getting on that nightmare merry-go-round again.  There are certain things that you just cannot argue about with certain people without it becoming spiritually destructive for one or the other or all concerned.  It seems to me that we've reached that point again, here. 

I'm sure some might draw conclusions which, in keeping with some of their statements, do not reflect reality on planet Earth.  That's fine.  I've no need to try to justify myself to them, nor am I concerned what they might think of me.  So, in an attempt to keep whatever little spiritual health I *might* have, in an attempt to not descend into an anger that may cause me to sin more than I already do...... I'm outta here.
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« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2011, 11:33:44 AM »

Wow!  It's like deja-vu all over again, here...
More like deja-Jew? Wink
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« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2011, 11:40:45 AM »

Sorry, but the virulent anti-Jew nonsense that permeates some who profess to be Orthodox is too much for me to comment upon. Thank the Lord you do NOT represent the teachings of any of our credible hierarchs and spiritual leaders ranging from the current Patriarch of Moscow to the Ecumeninal Patriarch and their respective churches as well as most in between. Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2011, 11:46:47 AM »

Quote from: Ioannis Climacus
The Jews funded the Nazi's.

What color is the sky in your world?  Huh
That depends upon both perspective and time of day.

It is a well established fact that Jewish bankers funded Adolf Hitler. Scroll up to my earlier posts. Both a pre-Nazi German chancellor and a rabbi condemn the actions of the Zionist bankers.

Ioannis, I see you are of the OCA. I urge you to meet with your pastor and discuss your beliefs on this subject. If he is in agreement with your overriding sentiments, I would ask you to write your Bishop on your Synod for further edification. I have known two of them for fifty years, Bishops Michael and Matthias, and they would point you on the proper path to understanding this issue from an Orthodox perspective.

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award. I was present and I was profoundly influenced by his address. It is worth a listen to:  http://wn.com/Order_of_Saint_Andrew
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« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2011, 12:22:21 PM »

Ioannis, I see you are of the OCA. I urge you to meet with your pastor and discuss your beliefs on this subject. If he is in agreement with your overriding sentiments, I would ask you to write your Bishop on your Synod for further edification. I have known two of them for fifty years, Bishops Michael and Matthias, and they would point you on the proper path to understanding this issue from an Orthodox perspective.
And if he told me otherwise? Should I reject the words of Metropolitan Seraphim, Elder Paisios, Elder Ephraim, St. Nikolai Velimirovic? In the case of Jewish guilt, should I reject the words of St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, and St. Gregory of Nyssa?

To tell you the truth, I have grown to despise holding the views that I do. While I have been zealous about it in the past, the level of ostracization one experiences from speaking about such things is at times unbearable. I cannot, however, conform my beliefs to suit my comforts. I find the idea of abandoning what I understand to be true (all for the sake of public acceptance) to be repulsive. To quote the German reformer, Martin Luther, : "Here I stand, I can do no other".

If anyone were to demonstrate how I have misinterpreted numerous saints and elders, I would be more than happy to "conform" my beliefs. Without first addressing that issue, a rejection of my understanding would be rooted in social acceptance and political correctness.
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« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2011, 12:27:03 PM »

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award. I was present and I was profoundly influenced by his address. It is worth a listen to:  http://wn.com/Order_of_Saint_Andrew
I honestly doubt my ability to make it through anything with Elie Wiesel in it. I only associate that name with lies and fraud.
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« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2011, 01:01:35 PM »

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award. I was present and I was profoundly influenced by his address. It is worth a listen to:  http://wn.com/Order_of_Saint_Andrew
I honestly doubt my ability to make it through anything with Elie Wiesel in it. I only associate that name with lies and fraud.

Your last two posts convince me all the more that you must consult your pastor. Your convictions are not those of your jurisdiction. You need spiritual peace to resolve your inner conflicts and I hope that many of us will pray for you and with you.
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« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2011, 01:37:16 PM »

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award. I was present and I was profoundly influenced by his address. It is worth a listen to:  http://wn.com/Order_of_Saint_Andrew
I honestly doubt my ability to make it through anything with Elie Wiesel in it. I only associate that name with lies and fraud.

Your last two posts convince me all the more that you must consult your pastor. Your convictions are not those of your jurisdiction. You need spiritual peace to resolve your inner conflicts and I hope that many of us will pray for you and with you.
He's like 19 IIRC. He'll grow out of it. It's almost sure.
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« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2011, 03:08:38 PM »

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award. I was present and I was profoundly influenced by his address. It is worth a listen to:  http://wn.com/Order_of_Saint_Andrew
I honestly doubt my ability to make it through anything with Elie Wiesel in it. I only associate that name with lies and fraud.

Your last two posts convince me all the more that you must consult your pastor. Your convictions are not those of your jurisdiction. You need spiritual peace to resolve your inner conflicts and I hope that many of us will pray for you and with you.
He's like 19 IIRC. He'll grow out of it. It's almost sure.

Yeah but you just added a couple years by telling him he'll grow out of it.  Wink
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« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2011, 04:37:52 PM »

Your last two posts convince me all the more that you must consult your pastor. Your convictions are not those of your jurisdiction. You need spiritual peace to resolve your inner conflicts and I hope that many of us will pray for you and with you.
Emphasis mine.

And this is where we run in to trouble. It's great to be able to follow the leadership of your jurisdiction, but where do does one draw the line? Had I lived at the time of the Great Schism (in the west), would it have been preferable to align my convictions with that of my bishop? Had I lived at the time of the First Ecumenical Council (and my bishop had Arian leanings), would it have been reasonable to devote myself entirely to his teachings?

When a bishop (or even a synod) in the Church teaches something contrary to what is written (by either the councils or the fathers), I have a duty to follow the traditional teachings of the Church (and consequently disregarding the words of the bishop).

Any prayers would most certainly be welcome.
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« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2011, 04:43:01 PM »

Yeah but you just added a couple years by telling him he'll grow out of it.  Wink
Then allow me to ask my older and wiser brothers in the Faith a simple question :

Where do I go from here? I have most certainly been over-zealous in the past - something which I regret and indeed apologize for. The vast majority of my writings, however, have basis in the words of both reposed and living saints. To whose writings should I look once I have out grown these?
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« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2011, 06:23:24 PM »

Well I'm older, not wiser, but I'll answer anyway.

The one thing that I rail against more than anything is sectarianism within the Church.  If you have a belief that you would like validated, you can probably go to the Fathers and find something that will.  If you want a "conservative" Orthodoxy you can go to Orthodox Christian Information Center and they will provide you with a specific set of Fathers and specific works of theirs to defend their position.  If you want a more "liberal" Orthodoxy you can contact Orthodox Peace Fellowship and they will direct you to specific saints, elders, bishops, and priests.  Let's say you want Old Calendar Orthodoxy, the Holy Synod in Resistance/CTOS has a whole host of writing you might enjoy.  If you want an Orthodoxy that says that the "World Orthodox" are graceless, I can also lead you to some elders, bishops, and priests who will support that. 

The problem with that kind of approach is that it is inherently deficient.  It is carefully selecting Fathers to defend a particular viewpoint.  Usually those who follow such an approach are seeking to glorify themselves, their human reasoning, much like what Gregory is doing on that other thread. Or, one is naive and doesn't realize that what they are being fed is a selective Orthodoxy.  They are being led to read specific Fathers and they begin to think "Well all the Fathers I read say_____, therefore it must be what the Church teaches."  One must seek out the whole.




Yeah but you just added a couple years by telling him he'll grow out of it.  Wink
Then allow me to ask my older and wiser brothers in the Faith a simple question :

Where do I go from here? I have most certainly been over-zealous in the past - something which I regret and indeed apologize for. The vast majority of my writings, however, have basis in the words of both reposed and living saints. To whose writings should I look once I have out grown these?
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« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2011, 06:49:31 PM »

Well I'm older, not wiser, but I'll answer anyway.

The one thing that I rail against more than anything is sectarianism within the Church.  If you have a belief that you would like validated, you can probably go to the Fathers and find something that will.  If you want a "conservative" Orthodoxy you can go to Orthodox Christian Information Center and they will provide you with a specific set of Fathers and specific works of theirs to defend their position.  If you want a more "liberal" Orthodoxy you can contact Orthodox Peace Fellowship and they will direct you to specific saints, elders, bishops, and priests.  Let's say you want Old Calendar Orthodoxy, the Holy Synod in Resistance/CTOS has a whole host of writing you might enjoy.  If you want an Orthodoxy that says that the "World Orthodox" are graceless, I can also lead you to some elders, bishops, and priests who will support that. 

The problem with that kind of approach is that it is inherently deficient.  It is carefully selecting Fathers to defend a particular viewpoint.  Usually those who follow such an approach are seeking to glorify themselves, their human reasoning, much like what Gregory is doing on that other thread. Or, one is naive and doesn't realize that what they are being fed is a selective Orthodoxy.  They are being led to read specific Fathers and they begin to think "Well all the Fathers I read say_____, therefore it must be what the Church teaches."  One must seek out the whole.




Yeah but you just added a couple years by telling him he'll grow out of it.  Wink
Then allow me to ask my older and wiser brothers in the Faith a simple question :

Where do I go from here? I have most certainly been over-zealous in the past - something which I regret and indeed apologize for. The vast majority of my writings, however, have basis in the words of both reposed and living saints. To whose writings should I look once I have out grown these?

In another thread on a different subject I just said much the same, "I think that all of us professing the faith in our very different parishes, some extremely traditional - others - well,not so much ( really, both can be 'OK' and both are found throughout Church history)....have to find the strengths and the weaknesses that we each bring with us."

If one searches for 'real, absolute Orthodoxy' in this life, I fear he will be disappointed. Look,the reality is that our Dogmas, our Doctrines were molded together in the way they are handed down to us over time. Unlike the Mormons, we didn't find Scripture, Tradition or the Fathers 'under a rock'. It is probably an easier path for some to find solace in such a faith system- however that is not the way of Orthodoxy.

A dear friend of mine who was a priest and who died far too young once put it this way in a sermon: We are not called to a smorgasbord of faith, or a salad bar of Orthodoxy - a little of this, or a little of that... If we are searching for the True Faith, we have to look inward to our own soul, and with the assistance of the 'external' Church and all of Her teachings and all of her Saints and in all of God's temples - be it the greatest Cathedral built or simplest wooden frame hut - we can only try to find it.

The greatest Fathers of the Church wrote and said some of the most unpalatable, and subsequently undogmatic things.You can find those writings from many sources. Yet, those who accepted the consensus of the Church on Earth and moved beyond those errors, they became pillars of the Faith. I don't think anything less is expected from us in our own way as no one is given a burden too great for them to handle.

By the way, the aforementioned Orthodox Information Center, which I rarely cite, has a wonderful article about the very writings of St. John Chrysostom which prompted this exchange. I highly recommend it, although I don't completely agree:  http://orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/antisemitism.aspx
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« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2011, 07:00:36 PM »

Well I'm older, not wiser, but I'll answer anyway.

The one thing that I rail against more than anything is sectarianism within the Church.  If you have a belief that you would like validated, you can probably go to the Fathers and find something that will.  If you want a "conservative" Orthodoxy you can go to Orthodox Christian Information Center and they will provide you with a specific set of Fathers and specific works of theirs to defend their position.  If you want a more "liberal" Orthodoxy you can contact Orthodox Peace Fellowship and they will direct you to specific saints, elders, bishops, and priests.  Let's say you want Old Calendar Orthodoxy, the Holy Synod in Resistance/CTOS has a whole host of writing you might enjoy.  If you want an Orthodoxy that says that the "World Orthodox" are graceless, I can also lead you to some elders, bishops, and priests who will support that. 

The problem with that kind of approach is that it is inherently deficient.  It is carefully selecting Fathers to defend a particular viewpoint.  Usually those who follow such an approach are seeking to glorify themselves, their human reasoning, much like what Gregory is doing on that other thread. Or, one is naive and doesn't realize that what they are being fed is a selective Orthodoxy.  They are being led to read specific Fathers and they begin to think "Well all the Fathers I read say_____, therefore it must be what the Church teaches."  One must seek out the whole.
In large, I agree with you, Ionnis, but would you not say we run an equally dangerous risk of ignoring the harder sayings of the fathers on the grounds that such things do not represent the Church? From your point of view, what should be made of the early Church writings against the Jews? Would you say they speak for the Church? When we are talking about people who have seen the uncreated energy of God, I have an incredibly difficult time contradicting them.

What is to be made of Elder Paisios and Elder Ephraim's writings concerning a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Christianity? Should they be ignored in favor of the views of more ecumenical minded hierarchs in the Church? What should, in your opinion, a good Orthodox layman believe?

I ask in all sincerity because, regardless of whether or not you recognize it, you are one of the wisest members of OC.net. I would take your opinion to heart more than most.
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« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2011, 07:09:48 PM »

Oh goodness.  Ioannis, please do not say anything like that about me.  Please.

This is a complicated discussion, truly.  I'll admit I don't have many answers.  I'm a judgmental person, so I often see what is wrong in what others believe, but I have a truly difficult time providing any alternatives.  I don't know how one should be more balanced and I don't know what one should believe.  I don't.  I have beliefs about certain things that I am unsure of, or that don't appear to have a consensus, and so I remain quiet about them.   

But to answer your question: I know what Elder Ephraim and Elder Paisios believe.  Your summary of their belief on the issue is incorrect.  All that I will say is that I don't necessarily disagree with them on the issue. 

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« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2011, 07:17:19 PM »

To be honest, as much as Bishop Williamson's Jewish obsessions are unnerving, he has kind of a point, at least about Zionist Jews. If they really think that two thousand years of exile haven't abrogated their ancient rights to the Land of Israel, it becomes a little harder for them to deny accusations of complicity in deicide by saying that such accusations only relate to their ancestors. I suppose that would mean that non-Zionist Jews get off the hook more easily. Smiley

For the record, I don't believe in an actual Jewish conspiracy, i.e. literal groups of Jews convening in specific locations (physical or virtual) to plot how to destroy Western society and subjugate the world. Likewise I don't believe in a literal Masonic conspiracy. I would agree that the modern West, and those parts of the world that are adopting Western values, can nevertheless be described as a Masonic, and, at least in America, a Zionist society, since the core values of Masonry and Zionism have been so thoroughly absorbed by the political elites (whether or not they are actually Masons or Jews) that there isn't really a need anymore for such a conspiracy. We see this is in the enormous difficulty anyone faces who tries to preach publicly that there is only one true, saving faith, that there is absolute, revealed truth, or absolute right and wrong, which all to some degree contradict Masonic teaching, and the way in which Jews have come to be held above criticism as a group, while Christianity has come to be uniquely vilified by the secular elites. Of course, there are more complicated developments within this trend, e.g. the opposition to Zionism of the New Left, which has its origin in Soviet propaganda, while the New Right has for various reasons adopted Zionist values, and even Freemasonry is now more often than not associated with political conservatism, not revolution. Nevertheless, I think I'm right as to the overall developments in our culture.
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« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2011, 01:22:05 AM »

You're lambasted by media and ostracized from society for bringing up "Jewish wrongs"?  Perhaps for good reason.  Which "wrongs" would those be?
Off the top of my head? Genocide against the Palestinians, the false-flag operation known as 9/11, murder of the Russian Tsar (and creation of the Soviet Union), the Lavon affair, the USS Liberty incident.

Well, Yakov Yurovsky at least was Lutheran.

And Don't even think of pressing this "false flag" nonsense. No Jew had anything to do with 9/11, except to be crushed by a falling building.
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« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2011, 02:48:22 AM »

As Christians, we shouldn't hate anyone.

However, we have to realize that there is an anti-Jewish sentiment within our faith. Why? The Jews are the first heretics. Heirs to the promise that rejected the True Faith (that is, obviously, faith in Christ). They crucified him. However, we cannot blame today's Jews for their blasphemy any more than I could be blamed for the Spanish Inquisition.

At the same time, Jews (as a people) have separated themselves from the People of God, now revealed in the Church. I'm personally not a fan of interfaith dialogue. I don't really see the point. All Jews are free and welcome to join the Church and participate fully in Her mystical life. Areligious Jews (the majority today, it seems) might as well be counted simply as atheists, and religious Jews counted as heretics and simply ignored. They have nothing to do with the life of the Church.

Now, Zionists are quite meddling and dangerous. They are religious zealots, but again...that has nothing to do with the Church. Crazy religious Jews or sane religious Jews, they are a withered olive branch, until they decide to be grafted back in. No reason really to talk about them at all, and especially cause such scandal, though I don't generally approve of meeting with Jews for "dialogue" (or Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, etc.), Bishop Williamson needs to keep his mouth shut.
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« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2011, 03:08:05 AM »

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others? If I look at the number of lawyers, doctors, professors, chess players, mathematicians, Nobel Prize winners, bankers, I see that the percentage of Jews in these professions and areas is much greater than the percentage of Jews in the overall world population? In fact, at various times, different countries have put limitations on the number of Jews who could apply for such positions.
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« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2011, 03:26:56 AM »

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award.
Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm
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« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2011, 08:26:35 AM »

As Christians, we shouldn't hate anyone.

However, we have to realize that there is an anti-Jewish sentiment within our faith. Why? The Jews are the first heretics
...and the first Christians.
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« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2011, 09:11:12 AM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbase out.
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« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2011, 09:25:30 AM »

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others?
A cultural and religious emphasis upon critical analysis of the written word, and a religious culture that demands high attention to ritualistic detail, tends to produce a certain level of intellectual sophistication in the members of that culture. There's also the fact that Jews are more globally/internationally oriented than most Western European groups (because Jews originated outside of Western Europe), which is conducive to a bi- or multi-lingualism that helps in business and in intellectual sophistication.

These characteristics are common among successful groups. You see this success also among the brahmins in Hinduism, as well as the Jains.
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« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2011, 09:55:03 AM »

The latter: "Expressing reality as he sees it?"  Is he deluded?

The Jews funded the Nazi's. Regardless of the amount of evidence supporting this claim, it will certainly initiate an emotional response. The media has planted in the minds of all that such statements are anti-Semitic.


Since when did the Jews become the most innocent people on earth? I can criticize the English, the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese, the Egyptians, etc. for every wrong they have ever committed and yet I am not seen as "prejudiced", but the moment I bring up Jewish wrongs, I am lambasted by the media and ostracized from society.





Jews funded the Nazis? Can you provide proof of this, beyond, say 1935?  Did they also finance the building of the concentration camps?  That's a little like claiming Jesus committed suicide because he was a Jew and the Jews committed deicide, ergo....  Interesting.

I don't recall *anyone* saying the Jews were "the most innocent people on earth".  Ever.  Where'd you get that idea?

You're lambasted by media and ostracized from society for bringing up "Jewish wrongs"?  Perhaps for good reason.  Which "wrongs" would those be?

The Jewish bankers funded the Nazi movement. Germany's financial institutions were controlled by the Jews. Just look at the control and power of the Rothschilds.
The idea that the Holocaust is persistently brought up and used to create an impression that the victims,the Jews only, were completely innocent. Meanwhile, the list of other innocent victims during World War I is endless and not discussed.
The Russian Revolution was also funded by Jewish bankers. Trotsky made a number of trips to New York and was connected to Jacob H. Schiff, a prominent banker.
These facts in history are completely ignored and when they are brought to light, the term anti-semite is is used to silence the truth.
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« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2011, 10:59:35 AM »

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award.
Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm


Seriously, giving 'cred' to a group proudly calling itself the 'Gnostic Liberation Front?'  Sad
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« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2011, 12:18:32 PM »

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others?
A cultural and religious emphasis upon critical analysis of the written word, and a religious culture that demands high attention to ritualistic detail, tends to produce a certain level of intellectual sophistication in the members of that culture.

I think that part is a bit of a stretch.  Many Jews lack a real religious culture at all, much less one that demands high attention to ritualistic detail.  They aren't just pharisees (not using in a pejorative sense) transported to modern times.

Take the composition of the current state of Israel.  The very religious, i.e. ultra-Orthodox, while focusing on ritualistic detail are, by many standards, not successful and must be supported by the state. 

Still, there's something that clearly leads to an intelligent, industrious folk, and the Hindu/Jain comparison (particularly those in the Anglosphere) is notable.  Then again, I know plenty of industrious, successful Hindus who've never been to a temple or performed any rituals.
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« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2011, 01:29:01 PM »

I looked at the linked to site and I wonder why the author has pinched the cover art for the Larry Niven book SF book Destiny's Road first published in 1997, as am illustration for the section titled "Creating Effective Occult War Counter-Strategies"?!?  Huh

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« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2011, 01:53:53 PM »

What is to be made of Elder Paisios and Elder Ephraim's writings concerning a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Christianity? Should they be ignored
Yes. They were monks, not politicians, political scientists, or historians. If someone told them a silly conspiracy theory, they'd probably believe it out of innocent ignorance. Like the innocent man who believed the feather that men brought to him was that of an angel.
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« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2011, 02:08:18 PM »

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others?
A cultural and religious emphasis upon critical analysis of the written word, and a religious culture that demands high attention to ritualistic detail, tends to produce a certain level of intellectual sophistication in the members of that culture.

I think that part is a bit of a stretch.  Many Jews lack a real religious culture at all, much less one that demands high attention to ritualistic detail.  They aren't just pharisees (not using in a pejorative sense) transported to modern times.

Take the composition of the current state of Israel.  The very religious, i.e. ultra-Orthodox, while focusing on ritualistic detail are, by many standards, not successful and must be supported by the state. 

Still, there's something that clearly leads to an intelligent, industrious folk, and the Hindu/Jain comparison (particularly those in the Anglosphere) is notable.  Then again, I know plenty of industrious, successful Hindus who've never been to a temple or performed any rituals.

There have actually been a number of studies purporting to show that Ashkenazi (not Sephardi or Mizrachi) Jews have a higher average IQ than other European populations. I think the cultural and historical factors Jetavan mentions are at least part of the reason why IQ rose, i.e. because of the special social and economic situation of Jews in Medieval Western Europe (where the Ashkenazim originated), the most successful, and hence reproductive, members of the community tended to be the most intelligent. It's sort of a confirmation of traditional anti-Semitic caricatures: Jews just are better with numbers i.e. money and at outsmarting dumb gullible goyim (goyishe kop, anyone?), because they had to be to survive in the hostile climate of late feudal Europe. I say "late feudal" since that is really the period that saw the status of Jews plummet, e.g. when kingdoms started expelling them en masse; in late antiquity Jews were apparently quite powerful, or at least not under great hostile pressure (see work on the subject by a Bernard Bachrach). There's an evolutionary psychologist named Kevin MacDonald who's done a ton of research on this (kind of at the expense of his reputation among liberal academics).

Anyway, because this higher IQ became established in the genetic code of Ashkenazim, that is why you see Jews being smarter on average regardless of whether or not they practice their religion or are even particularly Judaic in their culture.
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« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2011, 02:52:45 PM »

^ Excellent points.  I wasn't disputing that social and cultural factors contributed, but I think I viewed Jetavan's "ritualistic detail" comment too exclusively through a liturgical lens.  I'm on board now!

Plus, I tend to argue with Jetavan out of habit (sorry, Jetavan :hi-five)
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« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2011, 02:59:37 PM »

As Christians, we shouldn't hate anyone.

However, we have to realize that there is an anti-Jewish sentiment within our faith. Why? The Jews are the first heretics
...and the first Christians.

That isn't what I mean. Any idiot knows the first Christians were Jewish by decent, and we readily admit that the Israelite faith of the OT is our same faith. However, The Jewish people (embodied in their rabbis, the scribes, the chief priest, etc.) as a whole rejected Christ and are the first heretics.

If you actually read further down on my post, you would've read:

Quote
At the same time, Jews (as a people) have separated themselves from the People of God, now revealed in the Church...All Jews are free and welcome to join the Church and participate fully in Her mystical life.

[Religious Jews] are a withered olive branch, until they decide to be grafted back in.

And, I do mean withered. Their religious system is quite defunct. Modern Judaism is "Rabbinical Judaism" (except the Karaite, but they're a different story). For nearly 2,000 years they have not offered the sacrifices required by the Law. Their priests serve a very vestigial role in their religious life. The main player for them now is the rabbi, who is not a priest but an elder layman who has no actually spiritual authority. He leads the synogogue due to his experience and knowledge. The central aspect of the Israelite faith, the Temple. has been completely removed from what we today call Judaism.
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« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2011, 03:34:32 PM »

Well, Yakov Yurovsky at least was Lutheran.

And Don't even think of pressing this "false flag" nonsense. No Jew had anything to do with 9/11, except to be crushed by a falling building.
How sincere Yurovsky's conversion was, I know not. The fact that he worked with Jews G.P. Nikulin, P.Z. Yermakov, and S.P. Vaganov in the murder warrants some attention. What do you make of the Kabbalistic inscription found in the room of the Tsar's murder? 


Keble, who do you suspect was behind 9/11? What do you make of the celebrating Israeli's following the attacks?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8FlSWitOpg&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL5E9FA7EC5702C5D8
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« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2011, 03:36:31 PM »

^ Excellent points.  I wasn't disputing that social and cultural factors contributed, but I think I viewed Jetavan's "ritualistic detail" comment too exclusively through a liturgical lens.  I'm on board now!

Plus, I tend to argue with Jetavan out of habit (sorry, Jetavan :hi-five)
No problem. Cool

I agree that many modern Jews are not all that ritualistic, but I would suggest that the ritualism (and I use 'ritualism' in a neutral, rather than pejorative, sense) practiced by their ancestors can produce a non-religious, secular culture in which -- even though the religious beliefs are gone -- the cultural practices remain. Max Weber talked about a similar process occurring among Protestants, especially Calvinists, who initially tied "work" with "salvation"; but whose descendants (those American Yankee capitalists) lost the religious belief, but kept the emphasis upon "work, work, work" -- the "Protestant Work-Ethic", so called.
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« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2011, 03:41:52 PM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbase out.

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust? Many men throughout history have held a bizarre assortment of beliefs (Tesla, Newton, etc.), but neither their worldviews (or personalities) should discredit the evidence provided.
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« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2011, 03:51:43 PM »

What is to be made of Elder Paisios and Elder Ephraim's writings concerning a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Christianity? Should they be ignored
Yes. They were monks, not politicians, political scientists, or historians. If someone told them a silly conspiracy theory, they'd probably believe it out of innocent ignorance. Like the innocent man who believed the feather that men brought to him was that of an angel.
God often relates prophecies to the glorified. In fact, Elder Paisios foretold that the Jewish-dominated West would lead a persecution against Christians, which in turn would cause Christians to unify. Saint Iaint posted a large segment of his writings :

http://christconquers.wordpress.com/2010/06/06/elder-paisios-against-zionists-and-cowardly-orthodox/
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« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2011, 04:00:28 PM »

Ioannis, why do you speak of 'Jew' and 'Zionist' as if they were synonyms?

Also, where does that letter of Elder Paisios come from?  Please give me the name of the work that it is taken from.  I have read much of Elder Paisios and have not come across that letter.  [Nevermind.  I have been informed that Esphigmenou Monastery has stated that it isn't the work of Elder Paisios.]
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« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2011, 04:14:55 PM »

Ioannis, why do you speak of 'Jew' and 'Zionist' as if they were synonyms?

Also, where does that letter of Elder Paisios come from?  Please give me the name of the work that it is taken from.  I have read much of Elder Paisios and have not come across that letter. 
While not always synonymous, the most prominent Zionists in western politics/economics, are often Jews themselves (many times possessing dual-Israeli citizenship).

It comes from the book Signs of the Times - 666. To the best of my knowledge, a full English translation has not yet been released.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.cartiortodoxe.ro/cartea-carte/129915-semnele-vremurilor---666-cuviosul-paisie-aghioritul.html&prev=_m

[Nevermind.  I have been informed that Esphigmenou Monastery has stated that it isn't the work of Elder Paisios.]
Where have you heard this?
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« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2011, 04:32:49 PM »

I didn't think Elder Paisios was associated with Esphigmenou. Paisios was a commemorator of the ecumenist EP, not a Zealot.
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« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2011, 04:43:33 PM »

This thread started as a commentary on one specific SSPX Bishop Richard Williamson and his particular statements regarding the Jews. How does the general commentary on the Jews, Zionism, antisemitism, etc., that I've seen in the last several posts fit that subject?
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« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2011, 05:23:38 PM »

This thread started as a commentary on one specific SSPX Bishop Richard Williamson and his particular statements regarding the Jews. How does the general commentary on the Jews, Zionism, antisemitism, etc., that I've seen in the last several posts fit that subject?
This happens in about every thread dealing with anti-Semitism. It goes something like this :

Poster A : This is anti-Semitic and wrong.
Poster B : It's neither anti-Semitic nor wrong.
Poster A : How so?

etc.
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« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2011, 09:50:56 PM »

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust?

Because it's hearsay from someone who is below untrustworthy, obviously.
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« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2011, 10:05:36 PM »

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust?

Because it's hearsay from someone who is below untrustworthy, obviously.
That form of argument is known as ad hominem. The fact that the individual in question is a white supremacist (I take your word for it) has no bearing on whether or not his research adequately disproves the claims of Elie Wiesel.

Come on Keble, I expect more from the self-proclaimed "Grand Wizard".
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« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2011, 12:33:36 AM »

Well, Yakov Yurovsky at least was Lutheran.
Keble, who do you suspect was behind 9/11?

Those whom the 9/11 report names. The evidence against them is quote solid.

Quote
What do you make of the celebrating Israeli's following the attacks?

Nothing, really. Here is a much longer report of the "dancing Israelis" which is not exactly conclusive even as to what they did. I really cannot even raise this to the level of "suggestive"; it seems to me that it suggests a conspiracy linked to the destruction of the towers only if you are looking to confirm such a theory.

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust?

Because it's hearsay from someone who is below untrustworthy, obviously.
That form of argument is known as ad hominem. The fact that the individual in question is a white supremacist (I take your word for it) has no bearing on whether or not his research adequately disproves the claims of Elie Wiesel.

I don't think he did any research. These allegations of the "Miklos Gruner" wander from antisemite to antisemite, but their origin is obscure. There's no reference to the man in the news nor in books; I have not succeeded in finding a picture of the man. I am unwilling to take any of these people as witnesses to this man, and never mind whether I believe him.
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« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2011, 01:13:56 AM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbase out.

You can read the article which appeared in the Hungarian newspaper here:
http://www.haon.hu/hirek/magyarorszag/cikk/meg-mindig-kiserti-a-halaltabor/cn/haon-news-FCUWeb-20090303-0604233755
or here:

http://kuruc.info/r/6/36390/
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« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2011, 10:13:34 AM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbage out.

You can read the article which appeared in the Hungarian newspaper here:
http://www.haon.hu/hirek/magyarorszag/cikk/meg-mindig-kiserti-a-halaltabor/cn/haon-news-FCUWeb-20090303-0604233755
or here:

http://kuruc.info/r/6/36390/

I can't read Hungarian, but since you apparently can, you could give us a translation and tell us a little about the sites that are posting these things.
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« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2011, 05:49:18 PM »

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbage out.

You can read the article which appeared in the Hungarian newspaper here:
http://www.haon.hu/hirek/magyarorszag/cikk/meg-mindig-kiserti-a-halaltabor/cn/haon-news-FCUWeb-20090303-0604233755
or here:

http://kuruc.info/r/6/36390/

I can't read Hungarian, but since you apparently can, you could give us a translation and tell us a little about the sites that are posting these things.

There are translations of the article on the internet, and as well, there is an online translator (which is not all that good, but serves its purpose).
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« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2011, 07:26:18 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?
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« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2011, 10:41:42 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?

Not exactly, no.
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« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2011, 11:39:15 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?

Not exactly, no.

If one of my children said this, I'd assume that meant "yes".
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« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2011, 08:44:19 AM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )
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« Reply #81 on: October 24, 2011, 11:44:15 AM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )

The weight of recognized academic opinion is that God doesn't exist. Just saying…
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« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2011, 11:50:03 AM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )

The weight of recognized academic opinion is that God doesn't exist. Just saying…

 Huh

(That's an invitation for clarification, btw  Wink)
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« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2011, 12:06:48 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )

The weight of recognized academic opinion is that God doesn't exist. Just saying…

 Huh

(That's an invitation for clarification, btw  Wink)

Nah, I just like stirring the pot. Wink

But on a serious note, no I am not certain that most academics don't believe in God. It just seems that way to me after spending six years in grad school…
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« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2011, 12:28:31 PM »

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?


Being neither an conspiracy theory adherent, a Mason, an anti-Semite or a Zionist, I will settle for the determination of the Nobel Committee, the weight of recognized academic opinion within the study of history and the fact the Archons of St. Andrew would not presume to honor an individual with the Patriarch Athenagoras Humanitarian Award under false pretenses. (While it will merely 'fuel' the fervor of the conspiracy minded folks out there, I should not that the Archons ranks include at least one former CIA director, many other high ranking current or former American government officials and numerous academics. This will likely only convince those who would prefer to believe uncorroborated hearsay because it fits into their preconceived nothions, but such is the way of the world. )

The weight of recognized academic opinion is that God doesn't exist. Just saying…

 Huh

(That's an invitation for clarification, btw  Wink)

Nah, I just like stirring the pot. Wink

But on a serious note, no I am not certain that most academics don't believe in God. It just seems that way to me after spending six years in grad school…

You have my deepest sympathies  Grin!

And....you're probably right, given the general state of our institutions of "higher" learning these days  Sad.
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« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2011, 03:13:29 PM »

Yes, the institutes of higher education seem to be degenerating to that of dog-like behavior.

At one local institution, one professor urinated on the door of another professor.

Lord Jesus Christ, come and save us.

Back on topic:

Bishop Williamson would do far better if he were to keep his mouth shut, except to preach Christ's death and Holy Resurrection.
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« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2011, 03:22:27 PM »


Bishop Williamson would do far better if he were to keep his mouth shut, except to preach Christ's death and Holy Resurrection.

*All* bishops would do well to heed that advice.
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« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2011, 03:24:22 PM »


Bishop Williamson would do far better if he were to keep his mouth shut, except to preach Christ's death and Holy Resurrection.

*All* bishops would do well to heed that advice.

Amen.
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« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2011, 05:43:13 PM »

At one local institution, one professor urinated on the door of another professor.

Was the person who did such a gypsy from Romania?
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