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Author Topic: Occupy Orthodoxy - A Video Series  (Read 6972 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2011, 10:21:17 PM »

I think we would just agree to disagree.   I understand Christ's commandant to love one another as I have loved to be actually the crux of what it means to be a Christian.  From that flows the idea of loving people and respecting them.  Even possibly supporting a government that uses tax funds to help support those in need.  Also, I think Christ's teaching enhances the dignity of the human person and the responsibility of all to love those in need or not in need.

I'm with you...

Quote
The term social justice was actually coined by a Jesuit based on writings inspired by the gospels.
Nothing like a 19th century Jesuit coined term, which becomes largely secular, to represent Orthodox thought.

Quote
See, I understand Orthodox teachings to actually support the ideas of what developed into the notion of human rights.  People should be treated with dignity, respect, and love.  I believe Christ's commandments trumps all worldly laws and actually are for more radical than today's notion of human rights or justice.  Orthodoxy actually was a catalysis for state governments to adopt laws that we today would term as "social justice legislation."  For example, St Vlad out lawed the use of the death penalty.  St. Dionysius forgave the murderer of his brother and allowed him to escape punishment to live a life of repentance, which was accord to Orthodox teachings and spirituality as observed by monastics.  St. Constantine actually improved prisons and outlawed forms of execution influenced by Orthodoxy.  The imperial taxes were used to feed the poor and help the needy.   The first ecumenical council affirmed and supported the idea of universal healthcare.  Taxes were used to fund the ecumenical councils, the creation of bible manuscripts, the building of church and much more.  From Christ's gospel the society was to value the intrinsic value of the person and change to be more Christ like.  This includes using taxes to help people.

Thanks for including a more detailed explanation.  There are conflicting perspectives in there though.  That Christ's commandments, which I readily acknowledge are more radical than most secular ones, trump worldly ones, but then you're specifically trying to tie in Christ's laws with worldly ones.

I don't think most people are arguing against taxes, or that we shouldn't use taxes to help the poor.  I'm interested to see the 1st Ecumenical Council's affirmation of universal healthcare.

I still think you are confusing love and dignity towards mankind with "human rights."  No one is owed anything.  We are commanded to be charitable and kind to people, but not necessarily to ensure certain levels of arbitrarily defined conditions of "dignity."  Rightfully so, you bring up Christ's commandments, but in His own actions, you see this play out.  He heals, exorcises demons, raises people from the dead, but the scriptures don't mention Him protesting the government, or instituting unemployment benefits and such.  As you mentioned, His was a far more revolutionary position.

You can continue to argue, without much specific support, that this correlation between Church, Govt, and human rights is clear.  As you seem to place a great deal on Jesuit teachings, they did this as well, with Liberation Theology.  They were wrong.

Quote
So, I can only suggest that you study history and research how the Orthodox Church played a role in influencing and changing the laws in nation states to value the human person.

Maybe I (and all of the others you recommend this same phrase to) have studied this, and we find your arguments less than compelling.   
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2011, 10:25:55 PM »

So you post diatribes on youtube (red flag #1, IMO) because...??  People ask questions and all that you say is "Well it is in the Fathers!"  Should we blindly accept what you say? Why can't you back up what you say?  BTW, that last one was a rhetorical question.  You can't back it up because you do not know the Fathers.  You are not a teacher.  You are not a theologian.  You are an Orthodox Christian who has a lot to learn like the rest of us.  If you don't have an answer, humble yourself and say so!  There is no shame in that.  Don't use your own human reasoning and then attempt to make it credible by saying that the Fathers teach it.  It is disrespectful.     Instead of glorifying yourself, glorify the God of Heaven!

Without trying to pile on, I believe Ionnis has reached the root of the matter.  I come off as abrasive and a tad harsh because I am.  Ionnis is a very compassionate, conscientious person.  I recommend you consider his take on this.
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2011, 10:51:56 PM »

I think we would just agree to disagree.   I understand Christ's commandant to love one another as I have loved to be actually the crux of what it means to be a Christian.  From that flows the idea of loving people and respecting them.  Even possibly supporting a government that uses tax funds to help support those in need.  Also, I think Christ's teaching enhances the dignity of the human person and the responsibility of all to love those in need or not in need.

I'm with you...

Quote
The term social justice was actually coined by a Jesuit based on writings inspired by the gospels.
Nothing like a 19th century Jesuit coined term, which becomes largely secular, to represent Orthodox thought.

Quote
See, I understand Orthodox teachings to actually support the ideas of what developed into the notion of human rights.  People should be treated with dignity, respect, and love.  I believe Christ's commandments trumps all worldly laws and actually are for more radical than today's notion of human rights or justice.  Orthodoxy actually was a catalysis for state governments to adopt laws that we today would term as "social justice legislation."  For example, St Vlad out lawed the use of the death penalty.  St. Dionysius forgave the murderer of his brother and allowed him to escape punishment to live a life of repentance, which was accord to Orthodox teachings and spirituality as observed by monastics.  St. Constantine actually improved prisons and outlawed forms of execution influenced by Orthodoxy.  The imperial taxes were used to feed the poor and help the needy.   The first ecumenical council affirmed and supported the idea of universal healthcare.  Taxes were used to fund the ecumenical councils, the creation of bible manuscripts, the building of church and much more.  From Christ's gospel the society was to value the intrinsic value of the person and change to be more Christ like.  This includes using taxes to help people.

Thanks for including a more detailed explanation.  There are conflicting perspectives in there though.  That Christ's commandments, which I readily acknowledge are more radical than most secular ones, trump worldly ones, but then you're specifically trying to tie in Christ's laws with worldly ones.

I don't think most people are arguing against taxes, or that we shouldn't use taxes to help the poor.  I'm interested to see the 1st Ecumenical Council's affirmation of universal healthcare.

I still think you are confusing love and dignity towards mankind with "human rights."  No one is owed anything.  We are commanded to be charitable and kind to people, but not necessarily to ensure certain levels of arbitrarily defined conditions of "dignity."  Rightfully so, you bring up Christ's commandments, but in His own actions, you see this play out.  He heals, exorcises demons, raises people from the dead, but the scriptures don't mention Him protesting the government, or instituting unemployment benefits and such.  As you mentioned, His was a far more revolutionary position.

You can continue to argue, without much specific support, that this correlation between Church, Govt, and human rights is clear.  As you seem to place a great deal on Jesuit teachings, they did this as well, with Liberation Theology.  They were wrong.

Quote
So, I can only suggest that you study history and research how the Orthodox Church played a role in influencing and changing the laws in nation states to value the human person.

Maybe I (and all of the others you recommend this same phrase to) have studied this, and we find your arguments less than compelling.   

   

I'm actually just showing the flow and evolution of thought regarding the recently constructed term "social justice" in my previous statement.  I've never read any liberation theology or paid much attention to Jesuit teachings, just the church fathers and early Christian history.

I assume you would hope a nation would attempt to base their regulations on Christ commandments instead of sharia law or atheistic morality.   I disagree, people are owed to be treaty with dignity they are all icons of the resurrected Christ.  Christ will hold each of use accountable on judgement day on how we treated others.    Jesus also protested in the temple against unjust behavior sanctioned by the temple government.  Christians are called to be salt of the earth, the light shinning in the world.   Being part of society we are to called to be agents of change, witnesses.     If you wish to ignore the actions of the Church, you are free to do so.
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2011, 10:58:47 PM »

Who "Occupies" Orthodoxy and Why?   Huh

Well, the Turks did, for one. As to why, I guess because they could is as good an answer as any.
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« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2011, 11:02:04 PM »

So you post diatribes on youtube (red flag #1, IMO) because...??  People ask questions and all that you say is "Well it is in the Fathers!"  Should we blindly accept what you say? Why can't you back up what you say?  BTW, that last one was a rhetorical question.  You can't back it up because you do not know the Fathers.  You are not a teacher.  You are not a theologian.  You are an Orthodox Christian who has a lot to learn like the rest of us.  If you don't have an answer, humble yourself and say so!  There is no shame in that.  Don't use your own human reasoning and then attempt to make it credible by saying that the Fathers teach it.  It is disrespectful.     Instead of glorifying yourself, glorify the God of Heaven!

Without trying to pile on, I believe Ionnis has reached the root of the matter.  I come off as abrasive and a tad harsh because I am.  Ionnis is a very compassionate, conscientious person.  I recommend you consider his take on this.
 Wow, I didn't even notice comment.   Interesting feedback.  I never expect people to take my word for it.  I would hope they would do their research and study.   One reason why, I refer to read the fathers in general is because there is such a wealth and treasure of knowledge and experience.    I would hope they would explore and learn more about the faith.   The main reason, I do youtube videos is to encourage people to read Orthodox books and study patristics to share what I've found inspiring.    
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« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2011, 11:14:13 PM »

So you post diatribes on youtube (red flag #1, IMO) because...??  People ask questions and all that you say is "Well it is in the Fathers!"  Should we blindly accept what you say? Why can't you back up what you say?  BTW, that last one was a rhetorical question.  You can't back it up because you do not know the Fathers.  You are not a teacher.  You are not a theologian.  You are an Orthodox Christian who has a lot to learn like the rest of us.  If you don't have an answer, humble yourself and say so!  There is no shame in that.  Don't use your own human reasoning and then attempt to make it credible by saying that the Fathers teach it.  It is disrespectful.     Instead of glorifying yourself, glorify the God of Heaven! 

Just had your quote brought to my attention.   If you watch my videos, you will have your questions answered.  Well, probably most of them.  Hope you can find peace.  Sorry to cause you to have a conniption fit.     
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« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2011, 11:27:53 PM »

If you wish to ignore the actions of the Church, you are free to do so.

If you wish to continue to claim that your own interpretations are the Orthodox position, you are free to do so. 

That's the glory of the world wide web: no qualifications or credentials needed to be an "expert."  I hope you take into consideration the almost unanimous disagreement offered from several Orthodox Christians in this thread, many of whom (from your failure to post specific quotes of the Fathers), appear better versed in Patristics than yourself.

If you want to post your opinions, fine, but if you claim to be presenting an Orthodox perspective, please be responsible and back your stuff up with references better than "the Fathers."  We're not criticizing to be mean, we would really prefer your stuff to be of good quality.
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« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2011, 11:52:09 PM »

If you wish to ignore the actions of the Church, you are free to do so.

If you wish to continue to claim that your own interpretations are the Orthodox position, you are free to do so. 

That's the glory of the world wide web: no qualifications or credentials needed to be an "expert."  I hope you take into consideration the almost unanimous disagreement offered from several Orthodox Christians in this thread, many of whom (from your failure to post specific quotes of the Fathers), appear better versed in Patristics than yourself.

If you want to post your opinions, fine, but if you claim to be presenting an Orthodox perspective, please be responsible and back your stuff up with references better than "the Fathers."  We're not criticizing to be mean, we would really prefer your stuff to be of good quality.
   No worries. I've studied and taught Orthodoxy for many years, which I was taught by  Bishops, clergy, and Orthodox theologians. 

I'm not surprised by the responses, based on the reputation of this web site.  I actually had more sympathy for the people posting then others have expressed.  Hope you all find peace.
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« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2011, 01:18:42 AM »

If you wish to ignore the actions of the Church, you are free to do so.

If you wish to continue to claim that your own interpretations are the Orthodox position, you are free to do so. 

That's the glory of the world wide web: no qualifications or credentials needed to be an "expert."  I hope you take into consideration the almost unanimous disagreement offered from several Orthodox Christians in this thread, many of whom (from your failure to post specific quotes of the Fathers), appear better versed in Patristics than yourself.

If you want to post your opinions, fine, but if you claim to be presenting an Orthodox perspective, please be responsible and back your stuff up with references better than "the Fathers."  We're not criticizing to be mean, we would really prefer your stuff to be of good quality.
   No worries. I've studied and taught Orthodoxy for many years, which I was taught by  Bishops, clergy, and Orthodox theologians.
If you can't back up your assertions on this thread with anything more than this, then you're just name dropping.
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« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2011, 01:41:27 AM »

Gregory, what is God's and what is Caesar's?  All of creation is God's, all of humanity is God's, consequently Caesar is God's.  If Caesar is God, then how can anything belong to Caesar - in the end it all belongs to God.


   Thanks for the feedback, interesting questions.   I can only encourage you to read and study the Holy Scripture, Church writings, and history.  It is important to study and research things then perhaps you will have a better understanding. 

Are you suggesting that my belief that all is the property of God is incorrect?
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« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2011, 01:41:27 AM »

If you wish to ignore the actions of the Church, you are free to do so.

If you wish to continue to claim that your own interpretations are the Orthodox position, you are free to do so. 

That's the glory of the world wide web: no qualifications or credentials needed to be an "expert."  I hope you take into consideration the almost unanimous disagreement offered from several Orthodox Christians in this thread, many of whom (from your failure to post specific quotes of the Fathers), appear better versed in Patristics than yourself.

If you want to post your opinions, fine, but if you claim to be presenting an Orthodox perspective, please be responsible and back your stuff up with references better than "the Fathers."  We're not criticizing to be mean, we would really prefer your stuff to be of good quality.
   No worries. I've studied and taught Orthodoxy for many years, which I was taught by  Bishops, clergy, and Orthodox theologians. 

I'm not surprised by the responses, based on the reputation of this web site.  I actually had more sympathy for the people posting then others have expressed.  Hope you all find peace.

Where have you "taught Orthodoxy for many years"?
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« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2011, 01:43:24 AM »

If you wish to ignore the actions of the Church, you are free to do so.

If you wish to continue to claim that your own interpretations are the Orthodox position, you are free to do so. 

That's the glory of the world wide web: no qualifications or credentials needed to be an "expert."  I hope you take into consideration the almost unanimous disagreement offered from several Orthodox Christians in this thread, many of whom (from your failure to post specific quotes of the Fathers), appear better versed in Patristics than yourself.

If you want to post your opinions, fine, but if you claim to be presenting an Orthodox perspective, please be responsible and back your stuff up with references better than "the Fathers."  We're not criticizing to be mean, we would really prefer your stuff to be of good quality.
   No worries. I've studied and taught Orthodoxy for many years, which I was taught by  Bishops, clergy, and Orthodox theologians. 

Picz or it didn't happen.

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« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2011, 11:16:13 AM »

If you wish to ignore the actions of the Church, you are free to do so.

If you wish to continue to claim that your own interpretations are the Orthodox position, you are free to do so. 

That's the glory of the world wide web: no qualifications or credentials needed to be an "expert."  I hope you take into consideration the almost unanimous disagreement offered from several Orthodox Christians in this thread, many of whom (from your failure to post specific quotes of the Fathers), appear better versed in Patristics than yourself.

If you want to post your opinions, fine, but if you claim to be presenting an Orthodox perspective, please be responsible and back your stuff up with references better than "the Fathers."  We're not criticizing to be mean, we would really prefer your stuff to be of good quality.
   No worries. I've studied and taught Orthodoxy for many years, which I was taught by  Bishops, clergy, and Orthodox theologians.
If you can't back up your assertions on this thread with anything more than this, then you're just name dropping.
   Funny.   I do realize that the majority of the comments were made by misguided anarchists.   So, I'm not interested in playing their games of contrived fallacies about Orthodox doctrine or history.
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« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2011, 12:00:43 PM »

If you wish to ignore the actions of the Church, you are free to do so.

If you wish to continue to claim that your own interpretations are the Orthodox position, you are free to do so. 

That's the glory of the world wide web: no qualifications or credentials needed to be an "expert."  I hope you take into consideration the almost unanimous disagreement offered from several Orthodox Christians in this thread, many of whom (from your failure to post specific quotes of the Fathers), appear better versed in Patristics than yourself.

If you want to post your opinions, fine, but if you claim to be presenting an Orthodox perspective, please be responsible and back your stuff up with references better than "the Fathers."  We're not criticizing to be mean, we would really prefer your stuff to be of good quality.
   No worries. I've studied and taught Orthodoxy for many years, which I was taught by  Bishops, clergy, and Orthodox theologians.
If you can't back up your assertions on this thread with anything more than this, then you're just name dropping.
   Funny.   I do realize that the majority of the comments were made by misguided anarchists.   So, I'm not interested in playing their games of contrived fallacies about Orthodox doctrine or history.
What on earth are you on about?  Misguided anarchists?

Your posts have been nothing but hollow, unsubstantiated opinions.  You've dismissed criticism with generic "study scripture and the Fathers" and a healthy dose of passive aggressive comments.

While I'm not inclined to believe that you have "taught Orthodoxy for many years," the thought is quite frightening.
You're probably a smart fellow with good intentions, but my advice is to stick to the teachings of the Church and leave the theorizing to actual theologians. 

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« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2011, 12:56:06 PM »

I'll repeat: Orthodoxy as a whole is more of an idea than a reality on the ground. Therefore there is little official teaching on anything other than stuff defined in the first millennium or so .
However various Orthodox churches when they talk on social issues will always use a social-democratic/ leftist rhetoric . It's my experience in Romania. Perhaps it's just a rhetorical trap meant to appease the masses and make the hierarchy look like they are not on big business side. I do not know. But for the hierarchy to openly campaign for the outlandish libertarian ideas would mean a suicide in therms of PR, at least.
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« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2011, 01:13:47 PM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
 I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
  It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why
right here you stop quoting Christ and start putting words in His mouth.

would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?
what you are advocating is a democracy to take (governments don't "provide tax funds") funds via taxation and decide how to spend it with the excuse of "helping society."  What democracy is it when half the population do not pay taxes, but decide how to spend it?

It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.
How often does the government do the latter in the name of doing the former?

Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.
and offered it to false idols.

Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers.  
you must have a different Bible.  You certainly are preaching a different gospel.
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« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2011, 01:22:45 PM »

Sorry, I can only direct you to read the writings and lives of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. John Chrysostom regarding government taxation and charity for patristic sources.   Forcible wealth redistribution is another term for paying taxes.
Other terms are "theft," and "robbery."  "Thou shalt not steal."  

Whenever, someone pays a tax that is wealth redistribution into the governments treasury to pay for public expenditures.

or pay off croonies.
Jesus and the fathers advocated Christians to obey their government even if it meant paying taxes (wealth redistribution.)  For St. Paul read the epistle of the Romans, were he encourages them to obey the government.
and pay taxes for defense and law enforcement.  Not social experimentation.
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« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2011, 01:26:17 PM »

Jesus and St. Paul says for Christians to obey their government that includes paying taxes to the government.    Regarding the book of Jonah, God pronounced a judgement against Nineveh because the entire city from the government to the beggar had sinned against God.  Just like Judea, Nineveh's government exploited the poor and used its resources to hurt people.  Therefore, God pronounced judgement on them because of their sins.   But He gave them a chance to repent.  I was using that as an example.
and overreaching.  The beggar, having no taxing power, would have nothing to repent of. Or maybe he was repenting because he wasn't paying taxes?  Then we are in trouble in the US, as half of population doesn't pay taxes.

My words aren't personal.
 
your spin certainly is.

I'm just discussing what I've discovered by doing research.
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« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 01:27:57 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2011, 01:27:02 PM »

You can easily argue that large amounts of wealth can only be the result of theft, therefore their forcible re-distribution is no theft at all, but justice. That's my position. It's not like getting into some guy's savings account. We are talking about big capital.
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« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2011, 01:29:31 PM »

You can easily argue that large amounts of wealth can only be the result of theft,
Easily, yes. Logically, no.

therefore their forcible re-distribution is no theft at all, but justice.
I'm sure that is how Judge Mob looks at it.

That's my position. It's not like getting into some guy's savings account. We are talking about big capital.
Oh? How big is "big"?
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« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2011, 01:36:26 PM »

If you wish to ignore the actions of the Church, you are free to do so.

If you wish to continue to claim that your own interpretations are the Orthodox position, you are free to do so. 

That's the glory of the world wide web: no qualifications or credentials needed to be an "expert."  I hope you take into consideration the almost unanimous disagreement offered from several Orthodox Christians in this thread, many of whom (from your failure to post specific quotes of the Fathers), appear better versed in Patristics than yourself.

If you want to post your opinions, fine, but if you claim to be presenting an Orthodox perspective, please be responsible and back your stuff up with references better than "the Fathers."  We're not criticizing to be mean, we would really prefer your stuff to be of good quality.
   No worries. I've studied and taught Orthodoxy for many years, which I was taught by  Bishops, clergy, and Orthodox theologians.
If you can't back up your assertions on this thread with anything more than this, then you're just name dropping.
   Funny.   I do realize that the majority of the comments were made by misguided anarchists.
Logically, you're poisoning the well if you're speaking of the comments made on this thread. You were asked to back up your statements with actual quotes from those outside sources you claim to know so well, but you choose to respond with an ad hominem. It would be better if you just admit that you don't know what you say you know.

So, I'm not interested in playing their games of contrived fallacies about Orthodox doctrine or history.
We're not interested in playing your games of dodgeball, either.
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« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2011, 01:48:07 PM »

Reflection on St. Basil's speech "To The Rich," which can be found in "On Social Justice: St. Basil the Great." Explores the concept that social justice and living the faith are not two separate things.

Link to reflection video:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W31-NwWIXVQ 

Occupy Orthodoxy Introduction link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS3z3fFBLVU&feature=related

So, Gregory, these are videos you made of yourself?
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« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2011, 02:21:15 PM »

So, I'm not interested in playing their games of contrived fallacies about Orthodox doctrine or history.

What contrived fallacies are you referring to?  You said you were taught by Bishops; were they teaching you contrived fallacies about Orthodox doctrine or history?   Huh
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« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2011, 08:13:36 PM »

Nevermind.
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« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2011, 08:27:25 PM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
   It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?  It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.   Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.  Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers. 

Negative.  It is wrong for you to claim your words are a Saint's.  Everything Christ said that you mentioned are on a personal level.  Christ said "My Kingdom is not of this world."  King David and St. John Chrysostom have been brought up in refutation to your claim.

So, what does St. Paul say about forceful seizure of property?  What does Jonah say about taxation and redistribution?

Jesus and St. Paul says for Christians to obey their government that includes paying taxes to the government.    Regarding the book of Jonah, God pronounced a judgement against Nineveh because the entire city from the government to the beggar had sinned against God.  Just like Judea, Nineveh's government exploited the poor and used its resources to hurt people.  Therefore, God pronounced judgement on them because of their sins.   But He gave them a chance to repent.  I was using that as an example.

My words aren't personal.  I'm just discussing what I've discovered by doing research. 

Actually this is a misinterpretation.   But that's another thread.   If you render unto God what is God's and don't working into the financial system of this world, then you won't be engaged with Caesar, his money, or his taxes.  He didn't ORDER us to pay taxes here.

If a Chicken lays and egg, do you owe taxes on it?  No.   Because it's God's blessing to you and belongs to God.   If you sell the egg for money that "Caesar" printed for you, then all the sudden Caesar wants his cut.   So there is no direct ORDER to pay taxes here, unless you have something that has "Caesar's picture on it".
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« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2011, 09:23:23 PM »

Jesus and St. Paul says for Christians to obey their government that includes paying taxes to the government.    Regarding the book of Jonah, God pronounced a judgement against Nineveh because the entire city from the government to the beggar had sinned against God.  Just like Judea, Nineveh's government exploited the poor and used its resources to hurt people.  Therefore, God pronounced judgement on them because of their sins.   But He gave them a chance to repent.  I was using that as an example.

My words aren't personal.  I'm just discussing what I've discovered by doing research. 

Actually this is a misinterpretation.   But that's another thread.   If you render unto God what is God's and don't working into the financial system of this world, then you won't be engaged with Caesar, his money, or his taxes.  He didn't ORDER us to pay taxes here.

If a Chicken lays and egg, do you owe taxes on it?  No.   Because it's God's blessing to you and belongs to God.   If you sell the egg for money that "Caesar" printed for you, then all the sudden Caesar wants his cut.   So there is no direct ORDER to pay taxes here, unless you have something that has "Caesar's picture on it".
How did you come up with this interpretation of the Gospel?
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« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2011, 07:57:08 AM »

Jesus and St. Paul says for Christians to obey their government that includes paying taxes to the government.    Regarding the book of Jonah, God pronounced a judgement against Nineveh because the entire city from the government to the beggar had sinned against God.  Just like Judea, Nineveh's government exploited the poor and used its resources to hurt people.  Therefore, God pronounced judgement on them because of their sins.   But He gave them a chance to repent.  I was using that as an example.

My words aren't personal.  I'm just discussing what I've discovered by doing research. 

Actually this is a misinterpretation.   But that's another thread.   If you render unto God what is God's and don't working into the financial system of this world, then you won't be engaged with Caesar, his money, or his taxes.  He didn't ORDER us to pay taxes here.

If a Chicken lays and egg, do you owe taxes on it?  No.   Because it's God's blessing to you and belongs to God.   If you sell the egg for money that "Caesar" printed for you, then all the sudden Caesar wants his cut.   So there is no direct ORDER to pay taxes here, unless you have something that has "Caesar's picture on it".
How did you come up with this interpretation of the Gospel?
He made it up, of course. JesusisIamity.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2011, 07:59:20 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
 I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
  It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?  It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.   Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.  Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers.  

Negative.  It is wrong for you to claim your words are a Saint's.  Everything Christ said that you mentioned are on a personal level.  Christ said "My Kingdom is not of this world."  King David and St. John Chrysostom have been brought up in refutation to your claim.

So, what does St. Paul say about forceful seizure of property?  What does Jonah say about taxation and redistribution?

Jesus and St. Paul says for Christians to obey their government that includes paying taxes to the government.    Regarding the book of Jonah, God pronounced a judgement against Nineveh because the entire city from the government to the beggar had sinned against God.  Just like Judea, Nineveh's government exploited the poor and used its resources to hurt people.  Therefore, God pronounced judgement on them because of their sins.   But He gave them a chance to repent.  I was using that as an example.

My words aren't personal.  I'm just discussing what I've discovered by doing research.  

Actually this is a misinterpretation.   But that's another thread.   If you render unto God what is God's and don't working into the financial system of this world, then you won't be engaged with Caesar, his money, or his taxes.  He didn't ORDER us to pay taxes here.

If a Chicken lays and egg, do you owe taxes on it?  No.   Because it's God's blessing to you and belongs to God.   If you sell the egg for money that "Caesar" printed for you, then all the sudden Caesar wants his cut.   So there is no direct ORDER to pay taxes here, unless you have something that has "Caesar's picture on it".
If the egg doesn't have your picture on it, how do you own it?  And God doesn't resemble an egg.

You have heard the expression "egghead," no?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 07:59:45 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2011, 06:46:20 PM »

What do gay sex addicts and Orthodox Christians have in common? Watch this video that reviews what St Mark the Monk and St. Symeon the New Theologian said about the fragmentation of humanity and a life in Christ.

Click here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-7NHdIs4ww
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 06:47:49 PM by gregory77 » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2011, 06:58:09 PM »

What do gay sex addicts and Orthodox Christians have in common? Watch this video that reviews what St Mark the Monk and St. Symeon the New Theologian said about the fragmentation of humanity and a life in Christ.

Click here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-7NHdIs4ww

Is this video for all sex addicts or just gay sex addicts? What if you're gay, but not addicted to sex?

Also, you do realize that you can be a gay sex addict and an Orthodox Christian, just as you can be a heroine addict and an Orthodox Christian. After all, being an Orthodox Christian does not exempt one from suffering from the disease of addiction.

So, what do gay sex addicts have in common with Orthodox Christians? Let's see:

a) Both are made in the image and likeness of God

b) Both are in need of God's love, grace, and forgiveness

c) Both are in need of repentance (for only Christ was without sin)

d) Both have the opportunity of salvation available to them through Christ

There, that was easy, and I didn't even have to watch a video!  Grin
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« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2011, 07:16:30 PM »

What do gay sex addicts and Orthodox Christians have in common? Watch this video that reviews what St Mark the Monk and St. Symeon the New Theologian said about the fragmentation of humanity and a life in Christ.

Click here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-7NHdIs4ww

Is this video for all sex addicts or just gay sex addicts? What if you're gay, but not addicted to sex?

Also, you do realize that you can be a gay sex addict and an Orthodox Christian, just as you can be a heroine addict and an Orthodox Christian. After all, being an Orthodox Christian does not exempt one from suffering from the disease of addiction.

So, what do gay sex addicts have in common with Orthodox Christians? Let's see:

a) Both are made in the image and likeness of God

b) Both are in need of God's love, grace, and forgiveness

c) Both are in need of repentance (for only Christ was without sin)

d) Both have the opportunity of salvation available to them through Christ

There, that was easy, and I didn't even have to watch a video!  Grin

^^<deafening applause!!>
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« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2011, 07:32:31 PM »

All ye holy saints of God, pray to God for us.
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« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2011, 10:12:29 PM »

What do gay sex addicts and Orthodox Christians have in common? Watch this video that reviews what St Mark the Monk and St. Symeon the New Theologian said about the fragmentation of humanity and a life in Christ.

Click here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-7NHdIs4ww

Is this video for all sex addicts or just gay sex addicts? What if you're gay, but not addicted to sex?

Also, you do realize that you can be a gay sex addict and an Orthodox Christian, just as you can be a heroine addict and an Orthodox Christian. After all, being an Orthodox Christian does not exempt one from suffering from the disease of addiction.

So, what do gay sex addicts have in common with Orthodox Christians? Let's see:

a) Both are made in the image and likeness of God

b) Both are in need of God's love, grace, and forgiveness

c) Both are in need of repentance (for only Christ was without sin)

d) Both have the opportunity of salvation available to them through Christ

There, that was easy, and I didn't even have to watch a video!  Grin
   I like your response.   The title was just chosen for rhetorical reasons.  Someone had mentioned St. Symeon to me about something.  So I had decided to use one of his harsh discourses chastising his monastics, where he compares homosexual sex addiction as the same thing as being a hateful bigot.   It corresponded well with St. Mark's letter to Nicholas about struggling with sin.   
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« Reply #78 on: November 25, 2011, 03:33:37 PM »


Occupy your hearts with mercy. Review on St. Basil the Great, St. Mark the Monk, and St. Symeon the New Theologian on occupying your heart with mercy and repentance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v­=KhzZSTtORA4
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« Reply #79 on: November 26, 2011, 12:22:01 AM »


What is the center and cornerstone of reality according to Orthodox Christianity? Christ Crucified & Christ is Risen. How do transgender issues, evolution, science, and the occupy movement relate to Christ Crucified?

Click on the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v­=a7bl90xmxsg
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