OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 02:35:19 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Occupy Orthodoxy - A Video Series  (Read 7310 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« on: October 19, 2011, 11:54:53 PM »

Reflection on St. Basil's speech "To The Rich," which can be found in "On Social Justice: St. Basil the Great." Explores the concept that social justice and living the faith are not two separate things.

Link to reflection video:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W31-NwWIXVQ 

Occupy Orthodoxy Introduction link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS3z3fFBLVU&feature=related
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 12:15:20 AM »

Define "social justice".
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,330


WWW
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 12:19:08 AM »

Who "Occupies" Orthodoxy and Why?   Huh
Logged
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 12:28:33 AM »

Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating a society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity, that understands and values human rights, and that recognizes the dignity of every human being.[1][2][3] The term and modern concept of "social justice" was coined by the Jesuit Luigi Taparelli in 1840 based on the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas and given further exposure in 1848 by Antonio Rosmini-Serbati.[1][2][4][5][6] The idea was elaborated by the moral theologian John A. Ryan, who initiated the concept of a living wage. Father Coughlin also used the term in his publications in the 1930s and the 1940s. It is a part of Catholic social teaching, Social Gospel from Episcopalians, and is one of the Four Pillars of the Green Party upheld by green parties worldwide. Social justice as a secular concept, distinct from religious teachings, emerged mainly in the late twentieth century, influenced primarily by philosopher John Rawls. Some tenets of social justice have been adopted by those on the left of the political spectrum.

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Logged
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 12:29:40 AM »

Who "Occupies" Orthodoxy and Why?   Huh

You don't get it is a play on words. 
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 12:33:35 AM »

Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating a society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity, that understands and values human rights, and that recognizes the dignity of every human being.[1][2][3] The term and modern concept of "social justice" was coined by the Jesuit Luigi Taparelli in 1840 based on the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas and given further exposure in 1848 by Antonio Rosmini-Serbati.[1][2][4][5][6] The idea was elaborated by the moral theologian John A. Ryan, who initiated the concept of a living wage. Father Coughlin also used the term in his publications in the 1930s and the 1940s. It is a part of Catholic social teaching, Social Gospel from Episcopalians, and is one of the Four Pillars of the Green Party upheld by green parties worldwide. Social justice as a secular concept, distinct from religious teachings, emerged mainly in the late twentieth century, influenced primarily by philosopher John Rawls. Some tenets of social justice have been adopted by those on the left of the political spectrum.

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice

Where do any of these key terms appear in St Basil's works, let alone the Most Holy Scriptures?

Please note I am not saying that our great God and saviour did not command us to care for the poor and oppressed (Lord forbid).
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 12:35:47 AM by akimori makoto » Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2011, 12:35:10 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2011, 12:46:54 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Logged
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2011, 12:48:35 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2011, 12:50:35 AM »

Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating a society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity, that understands and values human rights, and that recognizes the dignity of every human being.[1][2][3] The term and modern concept of "social justice" was coined by the Jesuit Luigi Taparelli in 1840 based on the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas and given further exposure in 1848 by Antonio Rosmini-Serbati.[1][2][4][5][6] The idea was elaborated by the moral theologian John A. Ryan, who initiated the concept of a living wage. Father Coughlin also used the term in his publications in the 1930s and the 1940s. It is a part of Catholic social teaching, Social Gospel from Episcopalians, and is one of the Four Pillars of the Green Party upheld by green parties worldwide. Social justice as a secular concept, distinct from religious teachings, emerged mainly in the late twentieth century, influenced primarily by philosopher John Rawls. Some tenets of social justice have been adopted by those on the left of the political spectrum.

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice

Where do any of these key terms appear in St Basil's works, let alone the Most Holy Scriptures?

Please note I am not saying that our great God and saviour did not command us to care for the poor and oppressed (Lord forbid).
 

I'm sorry that would take too much time to write and explain.   I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
Logged
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2011, 12:53:33 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2011, 12:55:09 AM »

I'll just keep on not putting my trust in the princes of men, thanks.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,973


black metal cat


« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2011, 01:01:03 AM »

I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long. 

Then you should withdraw your claim. The works of St. Paul amount to less than 45,000 words, it's not exactly a huge among of text(s) to go through. And we have search engines, Bible sites, study Bibles, commentaries... all sorts of tools for locating passages or ideas. If you can't or won't find the texts you claim are there, that's fine, but don't expect others to just go along with what you're saying.

And btw, I agree with your general point. What I take issue with is how you're defending it.
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2011, 01:01:28 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth redistribution by force.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 01:07:21 AM by Ioannis Climacus » Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2011, 01:23:36 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
   It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?  It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.   Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.  Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers. 
Logged
sainthieu
Abstractor of the Quintessence
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 621


« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2011, 01:30:50 AM »

I'm so sick of marxism.
Logged
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2011, 01:32:38 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
   It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?  It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.   Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.  Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers. 
Emphasis mine.

Whether or not forcible wealth redistribution could be "right" or "wrong" is not the question at hand. You cited patristic writings as endorsements of such actions - I am asking for clarification on the matter (as well as sources to back such claims).
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 01:39:57 AM by Ioannis Climacus » Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,763



« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2011, 01:41:47 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
   It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?  It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.   Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.  Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers. 

Negative.  It is wrong for you to claim your words are a Saint's.  Everything Christ said that you mentioned are on a personal level.  Christ said "My Kingdom is not of this world."  King David and St. John Chrysostom have been brought up in refutation to your claim.

So, what does St. Paul say about forceful seizure of property?  What does Jonah say about taxation and redistribution?
Logged
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2011, 01:44:54 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
   It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?  It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.   Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.  Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers. 
Emphasis mine.

Whether or not forcible wealth redistribution could be "right" or "wrong" is not the question at hand. You cited patristic writings to be endorsement such actions - I am merely asking for clarification on the matter (as well as sources).
  Sorry, I can only direct you to read the writings and lives of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. John Chrysostom regarding government taxation and charity for patristic sources.   Forcible wealth redistribution is another term for paying taxes.  Whenever, someone pays a tax that is wealth redistribution into the governments treasury to pay for public expenditures.   Jesus and the fathers advocated Christians to obey their government even if it meant paying taxes (wealth redistribution.)  For St. Paul read the epistle of the Romans, were he encourages them to obey the government.
Logged
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2011, 01:52:20 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
   It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?  It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.   Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.  Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers. 

Negative.  It is wrong for you to claim your words are a Saint's.  Everything Christ said that you mentioned are on a personal level.  Christ said "My Kingdom is not of this world."  King David and St. John Chrysostom have been brought up in refutation to your claim.

So, what does St. Paul say about forceful seizure of property?  What does Jonah say about taxation and redistribution?

Jesus and St. Paul says for Christians to obey their government that includes paying taxes to the government.    Regarding the book of Jonah, God pronounced a judgement against Nineveh because the entire city from the government to the beggar had sinned against God.  Just like Judea, Nineveh's government exploited the poor and used its resources to hurt people.  Therefore, God pronounced judgement on them because of their sins.   But He gave them a chance to repent.  I was using that as an example.

My words aren't personal.  I'm just discussing what I've discovered by doing research. 
Logged
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2011, 01:57:01 AM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
   It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?  It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.   Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.  Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers. 
Emphasis mine.

Whether or not forcible wealth redistribution could be "right" or "wrong" is not the question at hand. You cited patristic writings to be endorsement such actions - I am merely asking for clarification on the matter (as well as sources).
  Sorry, I can only direct you to read the writings and lives of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. John Chrysostom regarding government taxation and charity for patristic sources.   Forcible wealth redistribution is another term for paying taxes.  Whenever, someone pays a tax that is wealth redistribution into the governments treasury to pay for public expenditures.   Jesus and the fathers advocated Christians to obey their government even if it meant paying taxes (wealth redistribution.)  For St. Paul read the epistle of the Romans, were he encourages them to obey the government.
  Sorry meant "where."
Logged
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2011, 02:00:47 AM »

I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long. 

Then you should withdraw your claim. The works of St. Paul amount to less than 45,000 words, it's not exactly a huge among of text(s) to go through. And we have search engines, Bible sites, study Bibles, commentaries... all sorts of tools for locating passages or ideas. If you can't or won't find the texts you claim are there, that's fine, but don't expect others to just go along with what you're saying.

And btw, I agree with your general point. What I take issue with is how you're defending it.
  Sorry just tired.   In general, I was think of Romans where Paul talks about obey one's government that includes paying taxes (wealth distribution).
Logged
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2011, 02:00:54 AM »

Sorry, I can only direct you to read the writings and lives of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. John Chrysostom regarding government taxation and charity for patristic sources.
What from their lives in particular? As I have already stated, St. John Chrysostom harshly condemned the idea of forcible wealth redistribution :

"Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm. Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first—and then they will joyfully share their wealth."

Forcible wealth redistribution is another term for paying taxes.  Whenever, someone pays a tax that is wealth redistribution into the governments treasury to pay for public expenditures. Jesus and the fathers advocated Christians to obey their government even if it meant paying taxes (wealth redistribution.)  For St. Paul read the epistle of the Romans, were he encourages them to obey the government.
Christ merely stated that paying taxes was not sinful in of itself. Nowhere, does he imply ideological support for whatever the legalized mafia (i.e. the government) decides to do with it.
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2011, 02:04:42 AM »

Sorry, I can only direct you to read the writings and lives of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. John Chrysostom regarding government taxation and charity for patristic sources.
What from their lives in particular? As I have already stated, St. John Chrysostom harshly condemned the idea of forcible wealth redistribution :

"Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm. Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first—and then they will joyfully share their wealth."

Forcible wealth redistribution is another term for paying taxes.  Whenever, someone pays a tax that is wealth redistribution into the governments treasury to pay for public expenditures. Jesus and the fathers advocated Christians to obey their government even if it meant paying taxes (wealth redistribution.)  For St. Paul read the epistle of the Romans, were he encourages them to obey the government.
Christ merely stated that paying taxes was not sinful in of itself. Nowhere, does he imply ideological support for whatever the legalized mafia (i.e. the government) decides to do with it.
  Thanks for the feedback. Then you shouldn't mind paying taxes to help people out.
Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2011, 02:12:50 AM »

The correlation you claim exists between teachings of the Fathers and Social Justice seems extremely flawed.  Just because both advocate helping the poor doesn't make them the same.  Islam and Maoism do that as well.

Re-read that definition of "Social Justice" you posted and pick out some blatant contradictions with Orthodoxy.
Here's a nice example: "Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights..."  Whoops.

Additionally, I think it's reasonable to expect a bit more from you, regarding these writings and their correlations to modern secular movements.  Christ commanding "love thy neighbor..." or St. Paul writing to obey the laws isn't particularly compelling evidence of your assertion.

Consider this constructive criticism.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2011, 02:12:55 AM »

Sorry, I can only direct you to read the writings and lives of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. John Chrysostom regarding government taxation and charity for patristic sources.
What from their lives in particular? As I have already stated, St. John Chrysostom harshly condemned the idea of forcible wealth redistribution :

"Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm. Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first—and then they will joyfully share their wealth."

Forcible wealth redistribution is another term for paying taxes.  Whenever, someone pays a tax that is wealth redistribution into the governments treasury to pay for public expenditures. Jesus and the fathers advocated Christians to obey their government even if it meant paying taxes (wealth redistribution.)  For St. Paul read the epistle of the Romans, were he encourages them to obey the government.
Christ merely stated that paying taxes was not sinful in of itself. Nowhere, does he imply ideological support for whatever the legalized mafia (i.e. the government) decides to do with it.
  Thanks for the feedback. Then you shouldn't mind paying taxes to help people out.
Well, firstly, it doesn't help people out. As St. John pointed out, wealth redistribution actually brings about harm.

Secondly, just because paying taxes is not sinful, does not in any way imply that I or anyone else supports or should support the uses of the extorted money (many of us do mind). Were I to apply your logic to all situations, I would arrive at the conclusion that Christians should not mind supporting the imperial cult or the KGB on the basis of paying taxes.
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2011, 02:24:14 AM »

The correlation you claim exists between teachings of the Fathers and Social Justice seems extremely flawed.  Just because both advocate helping the poor doesn't make them the same.  Islam and Maoism do that as well.

Re-read that definition of "Social Justice" you posted and pick out some blatant contradictions with Orthodoxy.
Here's a nice example: "Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights..."  Whoops.

Additionally, I think it's reasonable to expect a bit more from you, regarding these writings and their correlations to modern secular movements.  Christ commanding "love thy neighbor..." or St. Paul writing to obey the laws isn't particularly compelling evidence of your assertion.

Consider this constructive criticism.
  I'm not to sure of your point:  "Re-read that definition of "Social Justice" you posted and pick out some blatant contradictions with Orthodoxy.
Here's a nice example: "Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights..."  Whoops."  So are you against human rights?  I'm not too sure of your point, sorry.
Logged
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2011, 02:39:27 AM »

Sorry, I can only direct you to read the writings and lives of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. John Chrysostom regarding government taxation and charity for patristic sources.
What from their lives in particular? As I have already stated, St. John Chrysostom harshly condemned the idea of forcible wealth redistribution :

"Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm. Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first—and then they will joyfully share their wealth."

Forcible wealth redistribution is another term for paying taxes.  Whenever, someone pays a tax that is wealth redistribution into the governments treasury to pay for public expenditures. Jesus and the fathers advocated Christians to obey their government even if it meant paying taxes (wealth redistribution.)  For St. Paul read the epistle of the Romans, were he encourages them to obey the government.
Christ merely stated that paying taxes was not sinful in of itself. Nowhere, does he imply ideological support for whatever the legalized mafia (i.e. the government) decides to do with it.
  Thanks for the feedback. Then you shouldn't mind paying taxes to help people out.
Well, firstly, it doesn't help people out. As St. John pointed out, wealth redistribution actually brings about harm.

Secondly, just because paying taxes is not sinful, does not in any way imply that I or anyone else supports or should support the uses of the extorted money (many of us do mind). Were I to apply your logic to all situations, I would arrive at the conclusion that Christians should not mind supporting the imperial cult or the KGB on the basis of paying taxes.
   Thanks for sharing your opinion.    Since paying taxes doesn't help anybody out according to you.  You should probably stop using the internet, driving, or attend or admire Orthodox Christian Churches funded by tax dollars past or present. You should also stop reading the Bible or other Orthodox writings, since their preservation was due to taxes paid by the imperial governments.  Since taxes helped fund the blossoming of Orthodox Christian Church and culture, you might want to rethink your statement.
Logged
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2011, 02:48:52 AM »

Sorry, I can only direct you to read the writings and lives of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. John Chrysostom regarding government taxation and charity for patristic sources.
What from their lives in particular? As I have already stated, St. John Chrysostom harshly condemned the idea of forcible wealth redistribution :

"Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm. Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first—and then they will joyfully share their wealth."

Forcible wealth redistribution is another term for paying taxes.  Whenever, someone pays a tax that is wealth redistribution into the governments treasury to pay for public expenditures. Jesus and the fathers advocated Christians to obey their government even if it meant paying taxes (wealth redistribution.)  For St. Paul read the epistle of the Romans, were he encourages them to obey the government.
Christ merely stated that paying taxes was not sinful in of itself. Nowhere, does he imply ideological support for whatever the legalized mafia (i.e. the government) decides to do with it.
  Thanks for the feedback. Then you shouldn't mind paying taxes to help people out.
Well, firstly, it doesn't help people out. As St. John pointed out, wealth redistribution actually brings about harm.

Secondly, just because paying taxes is not sinful, does not in any way imply that I or anyone else supports or should support the uses of the extorted money (many of us do mind). Were I to apply your logic to all situations, I would arrive at the conclusion that Christians should not mind supporting the imperial cult or the KGB on the basis of paying taxes.
   Thanks for sharing your opinion.    Since paying taxes doesn't help anybody out according to you.  You should probably stop using the internet, driving, or attend or admire Orthodox Christian Churches funded by tax dollars past or present. You should also stop reading the Bible or other Orthodox writings, since their preservation was due to taxes paid by the imperial governments.  Since taxes helped fund the blossoming of Orthodox Christian Church and culture, you might want to rethink your statement.
You completely missed my message. I never said tax money has never been used for the public good, but rather forced wealth redistribution fails at its goal. You seem to equate taxation with socialism for whatever reason.

I consider taxation obsolete, but not useless. Whatever uses it has had in the past could easily be replaced by the free market.
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2011, 06:28:48 AM »

Gregory, what is God's and what is Caesar's?  All of creation is God's, all of humanity is God's, consequently Caesar is God's.  If Caesar is God, then how can anything belong to Caesar - in the end it all belongs to God.

Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2011, 12:42:11 PM »

The correlation you claim exists between teachings of the Fathers and Social Justice seems extremely flawed.  Just because both advocate helping the poor doesn't make them the same.  Islam and Maoism do that as well.

Re-read that definition of "Social Justice" you posted and pick out some blatant contradictions with Orthodoxy.
Here's a nice example: "Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights..."  Whoops.

Additionally, I think it's reasonable to expect a bit more from you, regarding these writings and their correlations to modern secular movements.  Christ commanding "love thy neighbor..." or St. Paul writing to obey the laws isn't particularly compelling evidence of your assertion.

Consider this constructive criticism.
  I'm not to sure of your point:  "Re-read that definition of "Social Justice" you posted and pick out some blatant contradictions with Orthodoxy.
Here's a nice example: "Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights..."  Whoops."  So are you against human rights?  I'm not too sure of your point, sorry.

My point is that the modern, secular understanding of "social justice" is based on principles foreign to Orthodoxy.  Am I against human rights? Certainly not.  Do I believe they exist? Again, certainly not.  As a poster here put it: "I don't believe in human rights, but I'm glad we have them."  'Human rights' is an Enlightenment era concept, developed outside of and frequently in conflict with the teachings of the Church.

Your assertion that, according to a supposed Orthodox perspective, man-made institutions and government intervention should somehow be the guarantor of these "rights" shows your misunderstanding of this correlation.   

If you support wealth distribution undertaken by the state apparatus, that's fine, but don't claim that the Lord, St. Paul, and St. Basil the Great support your position without providing better evidence than you have.

That said, I think you are correct that many (myself included) are too complacent towards poverty and greed.  Just as "human rights" are foreign to Orthodoxy, so is the concept of the "right" to make loads of money and remain unaccountable (and other such prosperity gospel nonsense).  While I agree that we are to obey the laws of the state, the real accountability is to God, not the state. 
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2011, 12:57:36 PM »

Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating a society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity, that understands and values human rights, and that recognizes the dignity of every human being.[1][2][3]
Sounds like Church.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,330


WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2011, 02:23:17 PM »

Who "Occupies" Orthodoxy and Why?   Huh

You don't get it is a play on words. 

Just as you "played on words" by using the term "Occupy."   Wink
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,427


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2011, 03:08:12 PM »

So let me get this straight. The some of the Fathers and St. Paul believed in redistribution of wealth by the sword? Someone left their Karl Marx bookmark in their Bible.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,331


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2011, 03:58:48 PM »

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
Emphasis mine.

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?

St. Paul comes to mind.
Which of his writings do you have in mind?
  I can't really prooftext St. Paul that would take too long.  I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.
I attempt at that daily, but I have yet to come to the same conclusion. Are you familiar with what St. John Chrysostom said regarding forcible wealth distribution?

Surely, you can offer but one instance of St. Paul advocating wealth distribution by force.
   It would be wrong for me at this time to proof text St. Paul's writings.  I would suggest reading his epistles in context and in entirety.   However, I can quote Jesus Christ for you.   "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." - Luke 20:25   "Love your neighbor as yourself."  If Christ tells people to pay taxes to the Romans.  Why would it be wrong for a democracy to decide to provide tax funds to help society?  It is a far more noble thing for a government to help people than to spend tax money to kill.   Remember the prophets and how God's judgement on Judea was because they exploited the poor and didn't use their funds to obey God's laws but instead used it for their own personal pleasures.  Remember the book of Jonah?  Jesus also said a similar thing about Jerusalem and the money changers. 
Emphasis mine.

Whether or not forcible wealth redistribution could be "right" or "wrong" is not the question at hand. You cited patristic writings to be endorsement such actions - I am merely asking for clarification on the matter (as well as sources).
  Sorry, I can only direct you to read the writings and lives of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. John Chrysostom regarding government taxation and charity for patristic sources.   Forcible wealth redistribution is another term for paying taxes.  Whenever, someone pays a tax that is wealth redistribution into the governments treasury to pay for public expenditures.   Jesus and the fathers advocated Christians to obey their government even if it meant paying taxes (wealth redistribution.)  For St. Paul read the epistle of the Romans, were he encourages them to obey the government.
Gregory, the time you spend drafting replies for this thread you could spend finding and posting Bible passages and Patristic quotes that support your thesis.
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,829



« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2011, 05:51:17 PM »

Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating a society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity, that understands and values human rights, and that recognizes the dignity of every human being.[1][2][3] The term and modern concept of "social justice" was coined by the Jesuit Luigi Taparelli in 1840 based on the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas and given further exposure in 1848 by Antonio Rosmini-Serbati.[1][2][4][5][6] The idea was elaborated by the moral theologian John A. Ryan, who initiated the concept of a living wage. Father Coughlin also used the term in his publications in the 1930s and the 1940s. It is a part of Catholic social teaching, Social Gospel from Episcopalians, and is one of the Four Pillars of the Green Party upheld by green parties worldwide. Social justice as a secular concept, distinct from religious teachings, emerged mainly in the late twentieth century, influenced primarily by philosopher John Rawls. Some tenets of social justice have been adopted by those on the left of the political spectrum.

Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system. The Constitution of the International Labour Organization affirms that "universal and lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon social justice."[7] And the Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action treats social justice as a purpose of the human rights education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice

Where do any of these key terms appear in St Basil's works, let alone the Most Holy Scriptures?

Please note I am not saying that our great God and saviour did not command us to care for the poor and oppressed (Lord forbid).
 

I'm sorry that would take too much time to write and explain.   I would suggest reading the Holy Scriptures and the patristic writings carefully and prayerfully.

You are not playing fair here are you? You throw out a claim and when asked politely to provide a source, you throw the onus on the questioner. Not good at all.

ADDED: Just read your disclaimer, claiming tha you were tired when you threw back the question at akimori. Nonetheless, I find your general approach of half-baked argumentation to be somewhat disappointing as I was looking forward to taking apart any claim that such a thing as "social gospel" exists. I must desist, however, as it would be entirely too easy in your case.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 05:55:31 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2011, 05:54:06 PM »

By the way, this whole thread is an example of what I was complaining about elsewhere: the tendency to suggest that Christian morality inevitably aligns with left-wing economic and social programmes and that anyone who doesn't sign up to these is less than Christian.

Just a note for the record ...
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,973


black metal cat


« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2011, 05:58:24 PM »

This isn't directly related to the topic in the OP, but it's indirectly related. But I'm throwing this out there more because of how things have developed since then (though they seem to have gone in a couple directions). The topic here reminded me of a thread from January 2010. This thread, actually. It took me like 30 seconds to find. Wink
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 06:00:02 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2011, 06:03:55 PM »

This isn't directly related to the topic in the OP, but it's indirectly related. But I'm throwing this out there more because of how things have developed since then (though they seem to have gone in a couple directions). The topic here reminded me of a thread from January 2010. This thread, actually. It took me like 30 seconds to find. Wink

Personally, I am glad for these quotes, as they reinforce that our responsibility to the poor and to creation (which none of us can deny) is of a much loftier order than mere "human rights" and State-sponsored redistribution of wealth.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2011, 06:53:27 PM »

This isn't directly related to the topic in the OP, but it's indirectly related. But I'm throwing this out there more because of how things have developed since then (though they seem to have gone in a couple directions). The topic here reminded me of a thread from January 2010. This thread, actually. It took me like 30 seconds to find. Wink

Personally, I am glad for these quotes, as they reinforce that our responsibility to the poor and to creation (which none of us can deny) is of a much loftier order than mere "human rights" and State-sponsored redistribution of wealth.

I couldn't agree more.  The quotes are challenging and somewhat hard to digest, but most of us already knew this is the position the Church takes.  Like you explain, they are almost entirely based on personal responsibility rather than state-sponsored initiatives.  Governmental redistribution might be an effective way to alleviate poverty, but that's not really the end goal, and that's for another thread (or section of the forum).  The quotes, nor gregory's video or responses here provide no linkage to state socialism.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2011, 08:19:28 PM »

Gregory, what is God's and what is Caesar's?  All of creation is God's, all of humanity is God's, consequently Caesar is God's.  If Caesar is God, then how can anything belong to Caesar - in the end it all belongs to God.


   Thanks for the feedback, interesting questions.   I can only encourage you to read and study the Holy Scripture, Church writings, and history.  It is important to study and research things then perhaps you will have a better understanding. 
Logged
gregory77
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 78


« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2011, 09:02:31 PM »

The correlation you claim exists between teachings of the Fathers and Social Justice seems extremely flawed.  Just because both advocate helping the poor doesn't make them the same.  Islam and Maoism do that as well.

Re-read that definition of "Social Justice" you posted and pick out some blatant contradictions with Orthodoxy.
Here's a nice example: "Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights..."  Whoops.

Additionally, I think it's reasonable to expect a bit more from you, regarding these writings and their correlations to modern secular movements.  Christ commanding "love thy neighbor..." or St. Paul writing to obey the laws isn't particularly compelling evidence of your assertion.

Consider this constructive criticism.
  I'm not to sure of your point:  "Re-read that definition of "Social Justice" you posted and pick out some blatant contradictions with Orthodoxy.
Here's a nice example: "Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights..."  Whoops."  So are you against human rights?  I'm not too sure of your point, sorry.

My point is that the modern, secular understanding of "social justice" is based on principles foreign to Orthodoxy.  Am I against human rights? Certainly not.  Do I believe they exist? Again, certainly not.  As a poster here put it: "I don't believe in human rights, but I'm glad we have them."  'Human rights' is an Enlightenment era concept, developed outside of and frequently in conflict with the teachings of the Church.

Your assertion that, according to a supposed Orthodox perspective, man-made institutions and government intervention should somehow be the guarantor of these "rights" shows your misunderstanding of this correlation.   

If you support wealth distribution undertaken by the state apparatus, that's fine, but don't claim that the Lord, St. Paul, and St. Basil the Great support your position without providing better evidence than you have.

That said, I think you are correct that many (myself included) are too complacent towards poverty and greed.  Just as "human rights" are foreign to Orthodoxy, so is the concept of the "right" to make loads of money and remain unaccountable (and other such prosperity gospel nonsense).  While I agree that we are to obey the laws of the state, the real accountability is to God, not the state. 
  Thanks for your reply.  I think we would just agree to disagree.   I understand Christ's commandant to love one another as I have loved to be actually the crux of what it means to be a Christian.  From that flows the idea of loving people and respecting them.  Even possibly supporting a government that uses tax funds to help support those in need.  Also, I think Christ's teaching enhances the dignity of the human person and the responsibility of all to love those in need or not in need. 

The term social justice was actually coined by a Jesuit based on writings inspired by the gospels.  See, I understand Orthodox teachings to actually support the ideas of what developed into the notion of human rights.  People should be treated with dignity, respect, and love.  I believe Christ's commandments trumps all worldly laws and actually are for more radical than today's notion of human rights or justice.  Orthodoxy actually was a catalysis for state governments to adopt laws that we today would term as "social justice legislation."  For example, St Vlad out lawed the use of the death penalty.  St. Dionysius forgave the murderer of his brother and allowed him to escape punishment to live a life of repentance, which was accord to Orthodox teachings and spirituality as observed by monastics.  St. Constantine actually improved prisons and outlawed forms of execution influenced by Orthodoxy.  The imperial taxes were used to feed the poor and help the needy.   The first ecumenical council affirmed and supported the idea of universal healthcare.  Taxes were used to fund the ecumenical councils, the creation of bible manuscripts, the building of church and much more.  From Christ's gospel the society was to value the intrinsic value of the person and change to be more Christ like.  This includes using taxes to help people.   

So, I can only suggest that you study history and research how the Orthodox Church played a role in influencing and changing the laws in nation states to value the human person.   
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2011, 09:33:16 PM »

Do you know of any fathers who advocate forcibly seizing the wealth of one class and giving it to another?
No, quite the opposite. St. John Chrysostom excommunicated Empress Eudoxia for seizing a poor widow's property. But I do not necessarily think the Saints occupied themselves with things that were political in nature.
Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ (Cf. St. John 16:33)
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2011, 10:07:56 PM »

So you post diatribes on youtube (red flag #1, IMO) because...??  People ask questions and all that you say is "Well it is in the Fathers!"  Should we blindly accept what you say? Why can't you back up what you say?  BTW, that last one was a rhetorical question.  You can't back it up because you do not know the Fathers.  You are not a teacher.  You are not a theologian.  You are an Orthodox Christian who has a lot to learn like the rest of us.  If you don't have an answer, humble yourself and say so!  There is no shame in that.  Don't use your own human reasoning and then attempt to make it credible by saying that the Fathers teach it.  It is disrespectful.     Instead of glorifying yourself, glorify the God of Heaven! 
Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2011, 10:11:48 PM »

So you post diatribes on youtube (red flag #1, IMO) because...??  People ask questions and all that you say is "Well it is in the Fathers!"  Should we blindly accept what you say? Why can't you back up what you say?  BTW, that last one was a rhetorical question.  You can't back it up because you do not know the Fathers.  You are not a teacher.  You are not a theologian.  You are an Orthodox Christian who has a lot to learn like the rest of us.  If you don't have an answer, humble yourself and say so!  There is no shame in that.  Don't use your own human reasoning and then attempt to make it credible by saying that the Fathers teach it.  It is disrespectful.     Instead of glorifying yourself, glorify the God of Heaven! 
Fwiw, in my previous post I was simply posting something for the record. I do not endorse IC's views nor am I trying to involve myself in this thread in any way.

Just wanted to clarify that...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 10:11:57 PM by Severian » Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ (Cf. St. John 16:33)
Tags: social justice St. Basil the Great 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.21 seconds with 73 queries.