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« on: October 19, 2011, 11:34:53 AM »

Furthermore, regarding God as an author of peace and not confusion, what more resembles the blessing and presence of God than a Church that has been united for 2,000 years, which has suffered through periods of intense persecution and the uprising of many heresies, and yet has remained intact, in a spirit of mutual love and respect, with full agreement in all points of dogma, which worships in the same way, which prays using the same words, and which continues to produce saints which show forth the Apostolic gifts of the Spirit in every land and in every generation?  Do you not see Protestantism as the epitome of confusion, division, and disunity, whose author is not God but man?   

Emphasis mine

Concerning worship and the birth of the early church in Acts, which was a gathering (120) in an upper room where they were all filled with the Spirit and later resembled being drunk. Along with 1 Corinthians 14, in what way are these similar to the services in the Orthodox church?
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2011, 11:46:26 AM »

I usually get drunk on major feasts.
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2011, 11:51:52 AM »

I usually get drunk on major feasts.

Are they so difficult to bear sober?
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2011, 12:04:09 PM »


He was trying to be funny.

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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2011, 12:10:58 PM »

I think jah overstates the case, but there does seem to be quite a bit of contuinity. Fwiw, here's some thoughts I had posted back in 2005...

The answer to this particular issue is not as easily seen in Scripture, though we are not totally devoid of evidence. It might be easiest to start with the obvious: the Church retained much of things seen in worship in the Old Testament times, including a regular use of the Psalms as the sort of de facto prayer book (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16; James 5:13), and use of incense, appointed times of prayer, etc. (Acts 3:1; 10:9, 30; Rev. 8:3-4). We know from the writings of the early Christians that there were definate, set worship practices which were more or less followed by the Church, as can be seen in the Didache (c. 100AD), St. Justin Martyr (c. 165), and other sources.

The New Testament itself attests that in the years following the victory of our Lord on the cross, Christians continually and regularly met for prayer and worship, but these are sometimes vague and contradictory. St. Paul speaks to the Corinthian Church as people who already know and follow the same practices as himself (cf 1 Cor. 10:16), and St. Paul also took some time to correct the Corinthians on something they were doing wrong when it came to their gathering (1 Cor. 11:19-34). It might also be said that when worship services are seen as symbols throughout the book of revelation, they have a very liturgical feel to them.

The only instance in the Scripture that gives direct support to liturgical worship that I am aware of can be found in the book of Acts: "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Seperate me Barnabas and Saul fo the work whereunto I have called them." (Acts 13:2) The word rendered "ministered" here is leitourgeo in the Greek, meaning "to perform religious or charitable functions" (Strongs Concordance). There may be good archaeological evidence out there on this topic, but unfortunately I wouldn't know where to look for it.

Certainly by the fourth century there is a lot of evidence of liturgical worship, but then it is admitted that this would hardly be persuasive to most Protestants. Certainly from the beginning we followed St. Paul's command: "Let all things be done decently and in order." (1 Cor. 14:40). For further info on liturgical worship, I would suggest the following sources:

The Doctrines of the Orthodox Church: Worship and Sacraments

Father Constantine Nasr, The Bible in the Liturgy

Archbp. Lazar (Puhalo), Understanding the Divine Liturgy: Scripture in the Liturgy

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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2011, 12:13:53 PM »


He was trying to be funny.



I know. You missed that i understood that. I was being humourous in return.
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 12:16:31 PM »

Furthermore, regarding God as an author of peace and not confusion, what more resembles the blessing and presence of God than a Church that has been united for 2,000 years, which has suffered through periods of intense persecution and the uprising of many heresies, and yet has remained intact, in a spirit of mutual love and respect, with full agreement in all points of dogma, which worships in the same way, which prays using the same words, and which continues to produce saints which show forth the Apostolic gifts of the Spirit in every land and in every generation?  Do you not see Protestantism as the epitome of confusion, division, and disunity, whose author is not God but man?   

Emphasis mine

Concerning worship and the birth of the early church in Acts, which was a gathering (120) in an upper room where they were all filled with the Spirit and later resembled being drunk. Along with 1 Corinthians 14, in what way are these similar to the services in the Orthodox church?
Only 12 were filled with the spirit on Pentecost.  I Cor. 14:28.
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 12:19:35 PM »

I think jah overstates the case, but there does seem to be quite a bit of contuinity. Fwiw, here's some thoughts I had posted back in 2005...

The answer to this particular issue is not as easily seen in Scripture, though we are not totally devoid of evidence. It might be easiest to start with the obvious: the Church retained much of things seen in worship in the Old Testament times, including a regular use of the Psalms as the sort of de facto prayer book (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16; James 5:13), and use of incense, appointed times of prayer, etc. (Acts 3:1; 10:9, 30; Rev. 8:3-4). We know from the writings of the early Christians that there were definate, set worship practices which were more or less followed by the Church, as can be seen in the Didache (c. 100AD), St. Justin Martyr (c. 165), and other sources.

The New Testament itself attests that in the years following the victory of our Lord on the cross, Christians continually and regularly met for prayer and worship, but these are sometimes vague and contradictory. St. Paul speaks to the Corinthian Church as people who already know and follow the same practices as himself (cf 1 Cor. 10:16), and St. Paul also took some time to correct the Corinthians on something they were doing wrong when it came to their gathering (1 Cor. 11:19-34). It might also be said that when worship services are seen as symbols throughout the book of revelation, they have a very liturgical feel to them.

The only instance in the Scripture that gives direct support to liturgical worship that I am aware of can be found in the book of Acts: "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Seperate me Barnabas and Saul fo the work whereunto I have called them." (Acts 13:2) The word rendered "ministered" here is leitourgeo in the Greek, meaning "to perform religious or charitable functions" (Strongs Concordance). There may be good archaeological evidence out there on this topic, but unfortunately I wouldn't know where to look for it.

Certainly by the fourth century there is a lot of evidence of liturgical worship, but then it is admitted that this would hardly be persuasive to most Protestants. Certainly from the beginning we followed St. Paul's command: "Let all things be done decently and in order." (1 Cor. 14:40). For further info on liturgical worship, I would suggest the following sources:

The Doctrines of the Orthodox Church: Worship and Sacraments

Father Constantine Nasr, The Bible in the Liturgy

Archbp. Lazar (Puhalo), Understanding the Divine Liturgy: Scripture in the Liturgy



Thanks Asteriktos, a lot of info there for me to look at. If i'm a while, i won't have abandoned the thread it'll just be that i'm still looking at this.
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 12:29:00 PM »

Furthermore, regarding God as an author of peace and not confusion, what more resembles the blessing and presence of God than a Church that has been united for 2,000 years, which has suffered through periods of intense persecution and the uprising of many heresies, and yet has remained intact, in a spirit of mutual love and respect, with full agreement in all points of dogma, which worships in the same way, which prays using the same words, and which continues to produce saints which show forth the Apostolic gifts of the Spirit in every land and in every generation?  Do you not see Protestantism as the epitome of confusion, division, and disunity, whose author is not God but man?   

Emphasis mine

Concerning worship and the birth of the early church in Acts, which was a gathering (120) in an upper room where they were all filled with the Spirit and later resembled being drunk. Along with 1 Corinthians 14, in what way are these similar to the services in the Orthodox church?
Only 12 were filled with the spirit on Pentecost.  I Cor. 14:28.

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
   
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

 ‘ Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’;

 and,

 ‘ Let another take his office.’

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 2
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 12:52:11 PM »

Only 12 were filled with the spirit on Pentecost.  I Cor. 14:28.

St. John Chrysostom says specifically:

Was it upon the twelve that [the Spirit] came? Not so; but upon the hundred and twenty.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111.vi.iv.html

FountainPen:Regarding the worship of the early Church, please read the Liturgy of St. James, the Brother of the Lord:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0717.htm 

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which is used more commonly in the Orthodox Church than the Liturgy of St. James, is practically identical in form but is somewhat abbreviated.  The Liturgy of St. James was written around the year AD 60, close to the time when St. Paul wrote to the Romans. 

St. Justin Martyr, around the year AD 130 (only about 20 years after the repose of St. John, the author of the fourth gospel) described the weekly worship of Christians in his “First Apology”.  He summarizes this gathering as including Scripture readings, followed by an homily or sermon, prayers, and the Eucharist (communion).  St. Justin also specifically says that the Eucharist is Christ’s body and blood:


http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvi.html

"And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."


St. Ignatius of Antioch lived from A.D. 30-70.  He also speaks of Communion as Christ’s body and blood, describes the threefold hierarchy (bishop, priest, and deacon), states that the Eucharist can only be served by the bishop or by a priest appointed by the bishop, and specifically states that “If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vi.iii.html). 

You can read St. Ignatius, St. Justin, and other of the Apostolic Fathers here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.toc.html


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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 12:56:54 PM »

I think to 'be drunk in the Spirit' means to be filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit. Yes, that does happen in Orthodox services.  angel Do we go into an outburst in a mysterious language like the Pentecostals? No. But there are different ways of expressing joy. 
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2011, 12:58:58 PM »

Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Continued steadfastly - Protestantism in general is not a steadfast continuity but a revision to get back to the original. This emphasis on revision is particular to Protestantism and not a major driving force in Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, or Roman Catholicism (for the most part).

The apostles doctrine - Everyone claims to believe what they think the apostles taught. Protestantism is based on interpreting the words of the apostles and the OT, while Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, or Roman Catholicism are based in handing down the teachings as they received them.

Fellowship (literally communion) - Orthodoxy views the local bishop as presiding over the local church, and define the Church as consisting of all the local churches under the oversight of bishops in communion with their own. A visible sign of this unity is the comemmoration of the dyptichs in the liturgy - parishes comemmorate their local bishop and the bishop which presides over their synod of bishops (metropolitan, patriarch, etc), patriarchs (etc) comemmorate each other. When a local church loses their bishop (for whatever reason - death, deposition), a new bishop is ordained by the bishops on that synod. Roman Catholicism is based on maintaining visible unity with the Pope. Some Protestants maintain a visible unity (Lutherans, Anglicans), but most don't.

The breaking of the Bread - This is the Eucharist. Celebrating the Lord's Supper is fundamental and necessary to communal worship. This is how we unite ourelves to Christ through His Body and His Blood and how we proclaim His death until He returns. The sharing of this is a visible sign of Church unity.

The prayers - This doesn't mean they just got together and told God what was on their mind on occasion. This is referring to the different hours of prayer that were kept by the Jews. Christians kept these hours as set times of prayer, and while different prayers might be found in different traditions, the schedule of the hours is basically the same and they comemmorate the same things (vespers is the setting of the sun and beginning of the liturgical day for example).

I apologize for the lack of scripture references where they apply, I can look them up later if you want. Also, my point wasn't to bash Protestanism in places where I single it out, it's just that Protestantism in general is very distinct on those points.
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2011, 01:00:04 PM »

FountainPen, you may also be interested in the book "Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity With the Temple, the Synagogue and the Early Church" by Benjamin Williams:

http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Worship-Living-Continuity-Synagogue/dp/0937032727

It is also important to point out that the three most ancient "forms" of Christianity (Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Oriental/Non-Chalcedonian) all worship liturgically, employing a very similar form and structure to the Divine Liturgy.  If you read the history of the Church, you will nowhere find a controversy over liturgical worship.  You will not find any groups who claim that liturgical worship, incense, weekly Communion, bishops and ordained priests presiding, etc., are innovations.  Likewise, you will find no Christian groups today that have existed since Apostolic times who also advocate some kind of "unstructured" worship in the style of Protestant Evangelicals and charismatics.  Nor will you find examples of musical instruments used in the worship of the Early Church.
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2011, 01:09:56 PM »

1 Corinthians 14
Don't forget 1 Corinthians 13:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child".
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2011, 06:24:04 PM »

Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Yeah that sentence didn't go unnoticed as i read through the chapter today. It jumped out like i'd not read it before and i know i have many times.

Continued steadfastly - Protestantism in general is not a steadfast continuity but a revision to get back to the original. This emphasis on revision is particular to Protestantism and not a major driving force in Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, or Roman Catholicism (for the most part).
That's true.

The apostles doctrine - Everyone claims to believe what they think the apostles taught. Protestantism is based on interpreting the words of the apostles and the OT, while Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, or Roman Catholicism are based in handing down the teachings as they received them.
I can see that and it's attractive, i can't deny that.

Fellowship (literally communion) - Orthodoxy views the local bishop as presiding over the local church, and define the Church as consisting of all the local churches under the oversight of bishops in communion with their own. A visible sign of this unity is the commemoration of the dyptichs in the liturgy - parishes commemorate their local bishop and the bishop which presides over their synod of bishops (metropolitan, patriarch, etc), patriarchs (etc) commemorate each other. When a local church loses their bishop (for whatever reason - death, deposition), a new bishop is ordained by the bishops on that synod. Roman Catholicism is based on maintaining visible unity with the Pope. Some Protestants maintain a visible unity (Lutherans, Anglicans), but most don't.

The breaking of the Bread - This is the Eucharist. Celebrating the Lord's Supper is fundamental and necessary to communal worship. This is how we unite ourselves to Christ through His Body and His Blood and how we proclaim His death until He returns. The sharing of this is a visible sign of Church unity.
I'm going to have to visit 'Unity' later as i know i have a different understanding of it.

The prayers - This doesn't mean they just got together and told God what was on their mind on occasion. This is referring to the different hours of prayer that were kept by the Jews. Christians kept these hours as set times of prayer, and while different prayers might be found in different traditions, the schedule of the hours is basically the same and they commemorate the same things (vespers is the setting of the sun and beginning of the liturgical day for example).
I don't have a problem with the prayer times, that seems to all make perfect sense to me.

I apologize for the lack of scripture references where they apply, I can look them up later if you want. Also, my point wasn't to bash Protestanism in places where I single it out, it's just that Protestantism in general is very distinct on those points.
Yes it is very distinct and it's okay, you haven't come across as a 'Protestant basher' which i'm grateful for as it means i get to spend more time thinking about Orthodoxy than i do thinking i need to defend my faith, so i do appreciate that, thanks.
I know enough to have been able to read through what you've posted and automatically know where what you've covered originates. It's good to have it earthed in scripture but if Orthodoxy has other sources, which it does as well as scripture, then i'll take those as well. They should be in harmony with the bible anyway if i've understood so far. I didn't have any problems with what you've posted anyway, apart from the Eucharist and Unity, but that can wait.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 06:42:18 PM by FountainPen » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 06:32:57 PM »

FountainPen:Regarding the worship of the early Church, please read the Liturgy of St. James, the Brother of the Lord:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0717.htm 

St James, brother of Jesus, wrote a liturgy? #laughs
Now i feel seriously stupid.

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which is used more commonly in the Orthodox Church than the Liturgy of St. James, is practically identical in form but is somewhat abbreviated.  The Liturgy of St. James was written around the year AD 60, close to the time when St. Paul wrote to the Romans.

Still laughing.......

How could i not know this?

St. Justin Martyr, around the year AD 130 (only about 20 years after the repose of St. John, the author of the fourth gospel) described the weekly worship of Christians in his “First Apology”.  He summarizes this gathering as including Scripture readings, followed by an homily or sermon, prayers, and the Eucharist (communion). St. Justin also specifically says that the Eucharist is Christ’s body and blood:


http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvi.html

"And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."


St. Ignatius of Antioch lived from A.D. 30-70.  He also speaks of Communion as Christ’s body and blood, describes the threefold hierarchy (bishop, priest, and deacon), states that the Eucharist can only be served by the bishop or by a priest appointed by the bishop, and specifically states that “If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vi.iii.html). 

You can read St. Ignatius, St. Justin, and other of the Apostolic Fathers here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.toc.html

Thanks, seriously, thanks.
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 06:35:30 PM »

Furthermore, regarding God as an author of peace and not confusion, what more resembles the blessing and presence of God than a Church that has been united for 2,000 years, which has suffered through periods of intense persecution and the uprising of many heresies, and yet has remained intact, in a spirit of mutual love and respect, with full agreement in all points of dogma, which worships in the same way, which prays using the same words, and which continues to produce saints which show forth the Apostolic gifts of the Spirit in every land and in every generation?  Do you not see Protestantism as the epitome of confusion, division, and disunity, whose author is not God but man?   

Emphasis mine

Concerning worship and the birth of the early church in Acts, which was a gathering (120) in an upper room where they were all filled with the Spirit and later resembled being drunk. Along with 1 Corinthians 14, in what way are these similar to the services in the Orthodox church?
Only 12 were filled with the spirit on Pentecost.  I Cor. 14:28.

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
   
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

 ‘ Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’;

 and,

 ‘ Let another take his office.’

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 2
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29483.msg479549.html#msg479549
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 06:49:53 PM »


If the bible says it and even your own St. John Chrysostom backs it up, then that's enough for me right at the moment. It's hardly my most pressing issue and i can come back to it later if i need to. Thanks though.
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2011, 06:54:59 PM »

FountainPen, you may also be interested in the book "Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity With the Temple, the Synagogue and the Early Church" by Benjamin Williams:

http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Worship-Living-Continuity-Synagogue/dp/0937032727

It is also important to point out that the three most ancient "forms" of Christianity (Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Oriental/Non-Chalcedonian) all worship liturgically, employing a very similar form and structure to the Divine Liturgy.  If you read the history of the Church, you will nowhere find a controversy over liturgical worship.  You will not find any groups who claim that liturgical worship, incense, weekly Communion, bishops and ordained priests presiding, etc., are innovations.  Likewise, you will find no Christian groups today that have existed since Apostolic times who also advocate some kind of "unstructured" worship in the style of Protestant Evangelicals and charismatics. 
Thanks for the book suggestion. It's looking more like what you're saying here is correct, the more i read.

Nor will you find examples of musical instruments used in the worship of the Early Church.
I'll come back to this as i don't agree with it.
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 11:19:21 PM »

Nor will you find examples of musical instruments used in the worship of the Early Church.
I'll come back to this as i don't agree with it.

This seems to be what separates the real Sola Scripturists from the pretenders Wink  Shocked.  There are a number of Sola Scriptura Protestant groups that do not use musical instruments precisely because there is no mention of, or support for, their use in the New Testament.  Here is a long but fairly detailed article on the subject from a Sola Scripturist perspective:

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat&id=670

Interestingly, the Protestant author of the above article even makes note of the views of some of the earliest Church Fathers on instruments in worship:

The Early Church Fathers opposed instruments of music in Christian worship.
•  Justin Martyr (ca. 150 AD) condemned any association with musical instruments as worldly.
•  Tertullian (150-222 AD) mentions only vocal music in worship.
•  Clement of Alexandria (200 AD) severely denounced the use of instruments among Christians even at banquets.
•  Augustine (354-430 AD) displays the general attitude of the early church against instruments of music for any purpose. “Let no one’s heart revert to the instruments of the theater.”
•  Gregory of Nazianus (330-390 AD) mentions instruments but not in any way to approve them. He believed their only use was the arousement of sensuousness.
•  Jerome (347-420 AD) speaks only of vocal music and emphasizes that the heart is the source of songs.
•  Theodoret (ca. 400 AD) says the use of the instrument is a “childish” relic of the Old Testament and is excluded from the worship of the church.
•  Chrysostom (4th century AD) says of the instruments of the Old Testament allegorically look forward to the pure worship of the lips.  


Of interest to you may be the following comments from prominent Protestant Reformers, also quoted from the above article:

•  Martin Luther: “The organ in the worship to God is an ensign of Baal.”
•  John Wesley: “I have no objection to the organ in our chapels provided it is neither seen nor heard.”
•  Adam Clark: “I am an old man and an old minister, and I here declare that I have never known instrumental music to be productive of any good in the worship to God, and have reason to believe that it has been productive of much evil. Music as a science I esteem and admire, but instruments of music in the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music and I here register my protest against all such corruptions in the worship of that infinite Spirit who requires his followers to worship Him in spirit and truth.”
•  Charles Spurgeon: “I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery.”
•  John Knox called the organ: “a kist (chest) of whistles.” Alexander Campbell: “To the really spiritually minded, it (using instruments in worship) would be like a cowbell in a concert.”
•  J.W. McGarvey: “And if any man who is a preacher believes that the apostle teaches the use of instrumental music in the church, by enjoining the singing of psalms, he is one of those smatterers in Greek who can believe anything he wishes to believe. When the wish is father to the thought, correct exegesis is like water on a duck’s back.”


If you are generally interested in the subject of musical instruments in worship, you may appreciate the following audio lecture on musical instruments in the Bible given at St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Seminary by Dr. Yelena Kolyada:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/svsvoices/musical_instruments_of_the_bible

Dr. Kolyada has written a very comprehensive (and expensive) work entitled “A Compendium of Musical Instruments and Instrument Terminology in the Bible” which can be viewed here:

http://www.amazon.com/Compendium-Musical-Instruments-Instrumental-Terminology/dp/1845534093/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319079594&sr=8-1-spell

In the audio lecture linked above, while the entire lecture is interesting, around 48:00 she speaks of how musical instruments practically ceased being used in Jewish worship following the construction of the second temple.  She says that by the time the second temple was destroyed in AD 70, the use of musical instruments was forbidden in Jewish worship, with the exception of the shofar.  She doesn’t say much about the early Church or the views of the Church Fathers until about 1:01, and then does not add much more than what the author of the Protestant article above summarized.  I'm sure her book provides even more detail regarding the early Church's position on musical instruments.  Also, if you read the Liturgy of St. James that I linked to previously, you will notice no mention of instruments being used.  
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 11:29:57 PM »

Someone please tell me they had casseroles and deviled eggs in the Early Church. Please, God.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2011, 12:24:12 AM »


If the bible says it and even your own St. John Chrysostom backs it up, then that's enough for me right at the moment. It's hardly my most pressing issue and i can come back to it later if i need to. Thanks though.

He is your St John, too. May his words be long held as a treasure by all calling themselves Christian.
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2011, 12:25:28 AM »

FountainPen:Regarding the worship of the early Church, please read the Liturgy of St. James, the Brother of the Lord:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0717.htm 

St James, brother of Jesus, wrote a liturgy? #laughs
Now i feel seriously stupid.

I think you would appreciate the beauty of St James' liturgy. It is a true proclamation of the glory and majesty of our God.
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2011, 12:26:32 AM »

The word rendered "ministered" here is leitourgeo in the Greek, meaning "to perform religious or charitable functions" (Strongs Concordance). There may be good archaeological evidence out there on this topic, but unfortunately I wouldn't know where to look for it.

My Greek (both modern and Koine) is terrible, but I think this word can also be translated "to liturgise", though it probably didn't acquire that specific technical meaning until later.

Discussion welcomed.
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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2011, 12:29:19 AM »

J.W. McGarvey: “And if any man who is a preacher believes that the apostle teaches the use of instrumental music in the church, by enjoining the singing of psalms, he is one of those smatterers in Greek who can believe anything he wishes to believe. When the wish is father to the thought, correct exegesis is like water on a duck’s back.”

I like this.
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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2011, 06:14:48 AM »

Nor will you find examples of musical instruments used in the worship of the Early Church.
I'll come back to this as i don't agree with it.

This seems to be what separates the real Sola Scripturists from the pretenders Wink  Shocked.  


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« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2011, 07:55:04 AM »

Nor will you find examples of musical instruments used in the worship of the Early Church.
I'll come back to this as i don't agree with it.

This seems to be what separates the real Sola Scripturists from the pretenders Wink  Shocked.  





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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2011, 09:09:54 AM »

The word rendered "ministered" here is leitourgeo in the Greek, meaning "to perform religious or charitable functions" (Strongs Concordance). There may be good archaeological evidence out there on this topic, but unfortunately I wouldn't know where to look for it.

My Greek (both modern and Koine) is terrible, but I think this word can also be translated "to liturgise", though it probably didn't acquire that specific technical meaning until later.

Discussion welcomed.

I got my info from a popular level book written by Fr. Peter Gillquist, who seems to have written it with the express intention of getting other people to convert to Orthodoxy. I'm pretty sure you can't get any more scholarly or unbiased than that Smiley  But I was not completely and fully correct that one other time, several years ago, or so people say...
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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2011, 09:57:39 AM »

The word rendered "ministered" here is leitourgeo in the Greek, meaning "to perform religious or charitable functions" (Strongs Concordance). There may be good archaeological evidence out there on this topic, but unfortunately I wouldn't know where to look for it.

My Greek (both modern and Koine) is terrible, but I think this word can also be translated "to liturgise", though it probably didn't acquire that specific technical meaning until later.

Discussion welcomed.

I got my info from a popular level book written by Fr. Peter Gillquist, who seems to have written it with the express intention of getting other people to convert to Orthodoxy. I'm pretty sure you can't get any more scholarly or unbiased than that Smiley  But I was not completely and fully correct that one other time, several years ago, or so people say...
no, you were at least right on this.
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2011, 10:10:01 AM »

but it doesn't.
and even your own St. John Chrysostom backs it up, then that's enough for me right at the moment. It's hardly my most pressing issue and i can come back to it later if i need to. Thanks though.
St. Gregory Nazianzus speaks of only the Apostles, and says so specifically, not mentioning the 120.  He is not, however AFAIK, making any specific statement on the matter as St. John is trying to do.  According to Acts 2:37 and the rest of the passage, all 120 would have to be Apostles, and I know of the 70 Apostles, and the 12 Apostles, but no 120 Apostles.  In fact, Acts 1:15 would seem to preclude that.
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« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2011, 10:55:38 AM »

but it doesn't.
and even your own St. John Chrysostom backs it up, then that's enough for me right at the moment. It's hardly my most pressing issue and i can come back to it later if i need to. Thanks though.
St. Gregory Nazianzus speaks of only the Apostles, and says so specifically, not mentioning the 120.  He is not, however AFAIK, making any specific statement on the matter as St. John is trying to do.  According to Acts 2:37 and the rest of the passage, all 120 would have to be Apostles, and I know of the 70 Apostles, and the 12 Apostles, but no 120 Apostles.  In fact, Acts 1:15 would seem to preclude that.

St. Jerome agrees with St. John Chrysostom:

Letter CVIII. To Eustochium.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.v.CVIII.html

“the Holy Spirit came down upon the souls of the one hundred and twenty believers, thus fulfilling the prophecy of Joel.”


Sometimes the Fathers do disagree.  If so in this case, can you provide quotes from other Fathers that the Spirit came only upon the Apostles at Pentecost?
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