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Author Topic: The fall of Constantinople (muslim version)  (Read 5861 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 19, 2011, 06:59:52 AM »

Alright, I am actually unsure if this is the right place to put this but I just wanted to see what people might thing of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7tDKfvgvlA

Personally I find this movie pretty insulting.
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2011, 07:40:43 AM »

And our version is probably insulting to the muslims. That's how wars usually are. Every party has it's propaganda.
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2011, 07:54:04 AM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2011, 08:02:03 AM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2011, 08:03:27 AM »

And our version is probably insulting to the muslims. That's how wars usually are. Every party has it's propaganda.

Well, I can certainly see how our depiction of them slaughtering the unarmed, raping the women, enslaving the children could be totally misconstrued.  Piling up bodies in the Churches, etc.
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2011, 08:22:22 AM »

And our version is probably insulting to the muslims. That's how wars usually are. Every party has it's propaganda.

Well, I can certainly see how our depiction of them slaughtering the unarmed, raping the women, enslaving the children could be totally misconstrued.  Piling up bodies in the Churches, etc.

I wasn't declaring the muslim army as innocent. The fall of Costantinople was extremely lametable event. However I doubt that there has ever been a war where that kind of ruthless incidents doesn't happen.
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 08:24:21 AM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 08:26:47 AM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Yep, that's the one.
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 08:51:55 AM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 01:14:14 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?

Yes, at least many scholars argue so.

I don't understand Urdu- is that fat guy in green supposed to be the Roman Emperor?
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 01:22:19 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?

Yes, at least many scholars argue so.

I don't understand Urdu- is that fat guy in green supposed to be the Roman Emperor?

Yes, I think so.
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2011, 01:28:51 PM »

I doubt that there has ever been a war where that kind of ruthless incidents doesn't happen.
Yeah, but this is a barbarian horde attacking a city just for the plunder/glory/land. It's not as if the Greeks were itching to fight the Turks at that point.
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2011, 04:25:27 PM »

This one has English dubs (for anyone interested). This cartoon is pretty absurd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBvlBOABe2A&feature=related
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2011, 04:39:04 PM »

This one has English dubs (for anyone interested). This cartoon is pretty absurd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBvlBOABe2A&feature=related

Thank you fotr that. I did remember seeing a dubbed version but when I searched this was the only one I could find.
I also looked at one of the commentaries. I thought that the golden age of the byzantine empire was from the 8th to the 10th century or am I wrong?
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2011, 04:53:03 PM »

This one has English dubs (for anyone interested). This cartoon is pretty absurd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBvlBOABe2A&feature=related

Thank you fotr that. I did remember seeing a dubbed version but when I searched this was the only one I could find.
I also looked at one of the commentaries. I thought that the golden age of the byzantine empire was from the 8th to the 10th century or am I wrong?

The guy who says the "golden age" ended with Justinian didn't know what he was talking about. That said "golden ages" can be slippery things.
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 04:57:08 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?

Yes, at least many scholars argue so.

Thank you for the answers. I was asking because it is only the convert Muslims who seem to be interested in da'wah in Finland whereas immigrants tend to rather indifferent about it. But I guess this is not the first incident when missionary religion turns into an ethnic ghetto. Actually this sounds rather Orthodox, even.
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 05:07:35 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?

Yes, at least many scholars argue so.

Thank you for the answers. I was asking because it is only the convert Muslims who seem to be interested in da'wah in Finland whereas immigrants tend to rather indifferent about it. But I guess this is not the first incident when missionary religion turns into an ethnic ghetto. Actually this sounds rather Orthodox, even.

Yes, the reason why some preachers are so adamant about the importance of da'wah is because hardly anyone is bothering to do it. They say that converting someone to Islam will earn great favor at the Judgment, cover up many sins, etc.
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 06:12:40 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2011, 06:18:07 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 06:22:54 PM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 06:33:06 PM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)
Maybe they do, and if we have to be honest, many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.
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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2011, 06:43:44 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers. 

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!

Constantinople? Try the rape of Cyprus if in the 1970's if that scenario is in question. Same modus operandi. Despicable people; Nothing has changed with them.
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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2011, 07:17:18 PM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)

They probably wouldn't be too offended. I'm not sure how they would be offended by seeing a bunch of Italians running around in buckskins with feathers in their hair.  They'd probably just mutter something about how the wasi'chu have no fashion sense whatsoever.
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2011, 07:22:59 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy

Send the script to Veggie Tales.
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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2011, 08:22:04 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy

Send the script to Veggie Tales.

Just don't be surprised when the Iranian film industry puts out their alternative history version where the Moors don't get expelled from Spain and Ferdinand doesn't restore Catholicism.
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2011, 08:30:04 PM »

I was just upset that in the movie they had multiple canons.  Really they only had one.  the siege took forever.  (at least according to the Byantine Museum curator in Thessaloniki...lol) 
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2011, 09:00:27 PM »

Send the script to Veggie Tales.

Well the CEO of that publishing company is Orthodox, so they might be interested.
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2011, 09:43:05 PM »

I was just upset that in the movie they had multiple canons.  Really they only had one.  the siege took forever.  (at least according to the Byantine Museum curator in Thessaloniki...lol)  
It took forever, but Mehmet had several dozen canons.  He had one large one in particular which packed a large punch

(its second generation)
but because it took forever to reload, the Romans were able to repair the walls as it assaulted.
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« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2011, 09:53:34 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy

Send the script to Veggie Tales.

Just don't be surprised when the Iranian film industry puts out their alternative history version where the Moors don't get expelled from Spain and Ferdinand doesn't restore Catholicism.

Ha ha!  Watch them Papists squirm!
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« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2011, 10:28:36 PM »

I was just upset that in the movie they had multiple canons.  Really they only had one.  the siege took forever.  (at least according to the Byantine Museum curator in Thessaloniki...lol)  
It took forever, but Mehmet had several dozen canons.  He had one large one in particular which packed a large punch

(its second generation)
but because it took forever to reload, the Romans were able to repair the walls as it assaulted.

yah!  you're right!  (obviously).  that's what I remember the professor saying as well.  thanks for the help! 
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« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2011, 10:58:52 PM »

...many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

Many of them miss the mark as well.
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« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2011, 12:39:47 AM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)
Maybe they do, and if we have to be honest, many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

You mean James Cameron's Avatar aka Blue Pocahontas?
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« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2011, 12:47:53 AM »

Turkish propaganda? Huh
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« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2011, 02:04:24 AM »

Turkish propaganda? Huh

Umm...Urdu-speaking Turks? Something is not quite right here.
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« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2011, 07:12:26 AM »

...many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

Many of them miss the mark as well.

I know, but let's face it. Not many western movies are historically accurate.
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« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2011, 07:18:43 AM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)
Maybe they do, and if we have to be honest, many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

You mean James Cameron's Avatar aka Blue Pocahontas?

Though the movie was pretty impressive, I was thinking about something more like this:

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« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2011, 09:08:01 AM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy

Send the script to Veggie Tales.

Just don't be surprised when the Iranian film industry puts out their alternative history version where the Moors don't get expelled from Spain and Ferdinand doesn't restore Catholicism.

Ha ha!  Watch them Papists squirm!

If they do part two, they probably will poach some of Mel Brook's outtakes on the Inquisistion!  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2011, 09:10:40 AM »

...many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

Many of them miss the mark as well.

I know, but let's face it. Not many western movies are historically accurate.


Historical accuracy is usually OK for scholarly works or even popular non-fiction, but it usually doesn't sell in the movies. (or the theater...Shakespeare comes to mind!) Historical 'fiction' or adaptations are designed for the popular audience and/or to propagandize.

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« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2011, 04:38:36 PM »

...many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

Many of them miss the mark as well.

I know, but let's face it. Not many western movies are historically accurate.


Historical accuracy is usually OK for scholarly works or even popular non-fiction, but it usually doesn't sell in the movies. (or the theater...Shakespeare comes to mind!) Historical 'fiction' or adaptations are designed for the popular audience and/or to propagandize.


I laugh when people try to make "historically accurate" King Arthur films or "historically accurate" Greek mythology.
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« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2011, 04:46:53 PM »

Turkish propaganda? Huh

Umm...Urdu-speaking Turks? Something is not quite right here.
LOL. Why?  Urdu is a Turkic word.
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« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2011, 06:24:06 PM »

I know better to argue with Isa, but may I point out that Urdu is an Indo-European language used mostly in Pakistan.

Back to the "movie," it is certainly possible that it may have been produced by Pakistanis, with Saudi financing and under the aegis of the ISI. BTW, I had never heard Turks call the Conqueror anything by Fatih Sultan Mehmet, not Sultan Muhammad Fateh.

Regarding the Turks of that era, there are many facts that apply to them. First, they were indeed welcomed in some Bulgarian and Greek areas with bread and salt. Second, they were very practical and much less cruel to their subjects than many others. Third, they were related by blood to the ruling family of Constantinople as well as other Christian ruling families. Third, every body coveted Constantinople, which was the greatest and richest city in the world for centuries: Arabs, Latins, and Bulgarians come to mind. BTW, the Bulgarians had stopped a large Arab force early in the 8th Century because if anybody would take Tsarigrad--the City of the Caesar, it would have to be themselves!. Fourth, for at least 200 years, the Sultan promoted folks based on their intellect and merits, hereby benefiting his Christian subjects, mainly the more educated and cosmopolitan Greeks. Incidentally, Mehmet II personally vested Patriarch Gennadius shortly after taking over the city: "On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle." Wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius#Patriarch. Fifth, rape and pillage has been standard reward for the victorious armies for centuries.

That said, the movie is indeed garbage; for all her faults, Byzantium did not deserve to be conquered and rescued from her own "decadence."  Also, the Turks degenerated after Suleiman the Magnificent and their rule became very cruel indeed after him.
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« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2011, 06:44:04 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!

And our version is probably insulting to the muslims. That's how wars usually are. Every party has it's propaganda.

Well, I can certainly see how our depiction of them slaughtering the unarmed, raping the women, enslaving the children could be totally misconstrued.  Piling up bodies in the Churches, etc.

Wait, are we talking about the Muslims, or the heroes of the Old Testament? Murdering the unarmed, enslaving kids, raping women... sounds the same to me...  Huh
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« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2011, 08:52:01 PM »

I know better to argue with Isa, but may I point out that Urdu is an Indo-European language used mostly in Pakistan.

Back to the "movie," it is certainly possible that it may have been produced by Pakistanis, with Saudi financing and under the aegis of the ISI. BTW, I had never heard Turks call the Conqueror anything by Fatih Sultan Mehmet, not Sultan Muhammad Fateh.

Regarding the Turks of that era, there are many facts that apply to them. First, they were indeed welcomed in some Bulgarian and Greek areas with bread and salt. Second, they were very practical and much less cruel to their subjects than many others. Third, they were related by blood to the ruling family of Constantinople as well as other Christian ruling families. Third, every body coveted Constantinople, which was the greatest and richest city in the world for centuries: Arabs, Latins, and Bulgarians come to mind. BTW, the Bulgarians had stopped a large Arab force early in the 8th Century because if anybody would take Tsarigrad--the City of the Caesar, it would have to be themselves!. Fourth, for at least 200 years, the Sultan promoted folks based on their intellect and merits, hereby benefiting his Christian subjects, mainly the more educated and cosmopolitan Greeks. Incidentally, Mehmet II personally vested Patriarch Gennadius shortly after taking over the city: "On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle." Wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius#Patriarch. Fifth, rape and pillage has been standard reward for the victorious armies for centuries.

That said, the movie is indeed garbage; for all her faults, Byzantium did not deserve to be conquered and rescued from her own "decadence."  Also, the Turks degenerated after Suleiman the Magnificent and their rule became very cruel indeed after him.
The only error I can read in your synopsis of the sultan's treatment of his Christian subjects is that in order to be so rewarded by the sultan for any reason or purpose these "Christians" had to convert to Islam, taking Muslim names in the process. Most of the educated aristocrats took this easy path to retaining their wealth and position while the common peasants remained in dhimmitude.

And Urdu is Turkic, but this does not disqualify it from the Indo-European language trunk.
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« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2011, 11:10:52 PM »

And Urdu is Turkic, but this does not disqualify it from the Indo-European language trunk.

No it isn't, apart from some Turkic loan words.  By definition, a Turkic language cannot be in the Indo-European language trunk.

Urdu's family is as follows (in descending order from largest to smallest):
-Indo-European (Family)  Note the map of IE languages.
-Indo-Iranian (Branch)
-Indo-Aryan  (sub-Branch)
-Central Zone
-Hindustani
-Urdu
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« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2011, 10:22:18 AM »

Whatever....I would bet I am the only one here who hears Urdu every single day at work and my ear, well used to foreign tongues, disagrees. Have you actually read your references?
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