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Author Topic: The fall of Constantinople (muslim version)  (Read 5825 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 19, 2011, 06:59:52 AM »

Alright, I am actually unsure if this is the right place to put this but I just wanted to see what people might thing of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7tDKfvgvlA

Personally I find this movie pretty insulting.
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2011, 07:40:43 AM »

And our version is probably insulting to the muslims. That's how wars usually are. Every party has it's propaganda.
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2011, 07:54:04 AM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2011, 08:02:03 AM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2011, 08:03:27 AM »

And our version is probably insulting to the muslims. That's how wars usually are. Every party has it's propaganda.

Well, I can certainly see how our depiction of them slaughtering the unarmed, raping the women, enslaving the children could be totally misconstrued.  Piling up bodies in the Churches, etc.
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2011, 08:22:22 AM »

And our version is probably insulting to the muslims. That's how wars usually are. Every party has it's propaganda.

Well, I can certainly see how our depiction of them slaughtering the unarmed, raping the women, enslaving the children could be totally misconstrued.  Piling up bodies in the Churches, etc.

I wasn't declaring the muslim army as innocent. The fall of Costantinople was extremely lametable event. However I doubt that there has ever been a war where that kind of ruthless incidents doesn't happen.
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 08:24:21 AM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 08:26:47 AM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Yep, that's the one.
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 08:51:55 AM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 01:14:14 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?

Yes, at least many scholars argue so.

I don't understand Urdu- is that fat guy in green supposed to be the Roman Emperor?
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 01:22:19 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?

Yes, at least many scholars argue so.

I don't understand Urdu- is that fat guy in green supposed to be the Roman Emperor?

Yes, I think so.
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2011, 01:28:51 PM »

I doubt that there has ever been a war where that kind of ruthless incidents doesn't happen.
Yeah, but this is a barbarian horde attacking a city just for the plunder/glory/land. It's not as if the Greeks were itching to fight the Turks at that point.
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2011, 04:25:27 PM »

This one has English dubs (for anyone interested). This cartoon is pretty absurd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBvlBOABe2A&feature=related
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2011, 04:39:04 PM »

This one has English dubs (for anyone interested). This cartoon is pretty absurd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBvlBOABe2A&feature=related

Thank you fotr that. I did remember seeing a dubbed version but when I searched this was the only one I could find.
I also looked at one of the commentaries. I thought that the golden age of the byzantine empire was from the 8th to the 10th century or am I wrong?
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2011, 04:53:03 PM »

This one has English dubs (for anyone interested). This cartoon is pretty absurd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBvlBOABe2A&feature=related

Thank you fotr that. I did remember seeing a dubbed version but when I searched this was the only one I could find.
I also looked at one of the commentaries. I thought that the golden age of the byzantine empire was from the 8th to the 10th century or am I wrong?

The guy who says the "golden age" ended with Justinian didn't know what he was talking about. That said "golden ages" can be slippery things.
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 04:57:08 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?

Yes, at least many scholars argue so.

Thank you for the answers. I was asking because it is only the convert Muslims who seem to be interested in da'wah in Finland whereas immigrants tend to rather indifferent about it. But I guess this is not the first incident when missionary religion turns into an ethnic ghetto. Actually this sounds rather Orthodox, even.
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 05:07:35 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!
I can't get youtube, so is this "Fatih"?  Yeah, it was "interesting."  Various Muslim da'wah (proselytising) organization market it to children and children's groups.   The ads have Mehmet as a savior who put an end to corruption in Istanbul. LOL.

Is da'wah an obligation in Islam?

Yes, at least many scholars argue so.

Thank you for the answers. I was asking because it is only the convert Muslims who seem to be interested in da'wah in Finland whereas immigrants tend to rather indifferent about it. But I guess this is not the first incident when missionary religion turns into an ethnic ghetto. Actually this sounds rather Orthodox, even.

Yes, the reason why some preachers are so adamant about the importance of da'wah is because hardly anyone is bothering to do it. They say that converting someone to Islam will earn great favor at the Judgment, cover up many sins, etc.
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 06:12:40 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2011, 06:18:07 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 06:22:54 PM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 06:33:06 PM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)
Maybe they do, and if we have to be honest, many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.
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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2011, 06:43:44 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers. 

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!

Constantinople? Try the rape of Cyprus if in the 1970's if that scenario is in question. Same modus operandi. Despicable people; Nothing has changed with them.
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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2011, 07:17:18 PM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)

They probably wouldn't be too offended. I'm not sure how they would be offended by seeing a bunch of Italians running around in buckskins with feathers in their hair.  They'd probably just mutter something about how the wasi'chu have no fashion sense whatsoever.
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2011, 07:22:59 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy

Send the script to Veggie Tales.
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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2011, 08:22:04 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy

Send the script to Veggie Tales.

Just don't be surprised when the Iranian film industry puts out their alternative history version where the Moors don't get expelled from Spain and Ferdinand doesn't restore Catholicism.
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2011, 08:30:04 PM »

I was just upset that in the movie they had multiple canons.  Really they only had one.  the siege took forever.  (at least according to the Byantine Museum curator in Thessaloniki...lol) 
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2011, 09:00:27 PM »

Send the script to Veggie Tales.

Well the CEO of that publishing company is Orthodox, so they might be interested.
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2011, 09:43:05 PM »

I was just upset that in the movie they had multiple canons.  Really they only had one.  the siege took forever.  (at least according to the Byantine Museum curator in Thessaloniki...lol)  
It took forever, but Mehmet had several dozen canons.  He had one large one in particular which packed a large punch

(its second generation)
but because it took forever to reload, the Romans were able to repair the walls as it assaulted.
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« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2011, 09:53:34 PM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy

Send the script to Veggie Tales.

Just don't be surprised when the Iranian film industry puts out their alternative history version where the Moors don't get expelled from Spain and Ferdinand doesn't restore Catholicism.

Ha ha!  Watch them Papists squirm!
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« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2011, 10:28:36 PM »

I was just upset that in the movie they had multiple canons.  Really they only had one.  the siege took forever.  (at least according to the Byantine Museum curator in Thessaloniki...lol)  
It took forever, but Mehmet had several dozen canons.  He had one large one in particular which packed a large punch

(its second generation)
but because it took forever to reload, the Romans were able to repair the walls as it assaulted.

yah!  you're right!  (obviously).  that's what I remember the professor saying as well.  thanks for the help! 
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« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2011, 10:58:52 PM »

...many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

Many of them miss the mark as well.
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« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2011, 12:39:47 AM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)
Maybe they do, and if we have to be honest, many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

You mean James Cameron's Avatar aka Blue Pocahontas?
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« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2011, 12:47:53 AM »

Turkish propaganda? Huh
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« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2011, 02:04:24 AM »

Turkish propaganda? Huh

Umm...Urdu-speaking Turks? Something is not quite right here.
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« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2011, 07:12:26 AM »

...many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

Many of them miss the mark as well.

I know, but let's face it. Not many western movies are historically accurate.
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« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2011, 07:18:43 AM »

Just wondering if American legendary movies about the American West appear as ridiculous to say, Native Americans? (I'm not arguing any moral equivalence, so please calm down out there.....)
Maybe they do, and if we have to be honest, many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

You mean James Cameron's Avatar aka Blue Pocahontas?

Though the movie was pretty impressive, I was thinking about something more like this:

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« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2011, 09:08:01 AM »

Maybe, but they could at least make just a bit realistic, I mean some of the people in the movie weren't even alive during the fall of Constantinople. But then again, you are probably right. I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

My version of the movie would end with Alexander Nevski and Harald Hardrada showing up with an army of their Rus/Viking Druzhina and elephant-riding cossacks liberating the city and throwing Mehmet into a pond full of sharks and piranhas.  And then they would reconquer the Holy Land.

I wonder if we could convince Disney or DreamWorks to make the movie  Cheesy

Send the script to Veggie Tales.

Just don't be surprised when the Iranian film industry puts out their alternative history version where the Moors don't get expelled from Spain and Ferdinand doesn't restore Catholicism.

Ha ha!  Watch them Papists squirm!

If they do part two, they probably will poach some of Mel Brook's outtakes on the Inquisistion!  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2011, 09:10:40 AM »

...many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

Many of them miss the mark as well.

I know, but let's face it. Not many western movies are historically accurate.


Historical accuracy is usually OK for scholarly works or even popular non-fiction, but it usually doesn't sell in the movies. (or the theater...Shakespeare comes to mind!) Historical 'fiction' or adaptations are designed for the popular audience and/or to propagandize.

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« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2011, 04:38:36 PM »

...many of the old western movies are pretty unrealistic concerning Native Americans. Thats why I prefer the later westerns that usually potray them in a more postive light.

Many of them miss the mark as well.

I know, but let's face it. Not many western movies are historically accurate.


Historical accuracy is usually OK for scholarly works or even popular non-fiction, but it usually doesn't sell in the movies. (or the theater...Shakespeare comes to mind!) Historical 'fiction' or adaptations are designed for the popular audience and/or to propagandize.


I laugh when people try to make "historically accurate" King Arthur films or "historically accurate" Greek mythology.
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« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2011, 04:46:53 PM »

Turkish propaganda? Huh

Umm...Urdu-speaking Turks? Something is not quite right here.
LOL. Why?  Urdu is a Turkic word.
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« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2011, 06:24:06 PM »

I know better to argue with Isa, but may I point out that Urdu is an Indo-European language used mostly in Pakistan.

Back to the "movie," it is certainly possible that it may have been produced by Pakistanis, with Saudi financing and under the aegis of the ISI. BTW, I had never heard Turks call the Conqueror anything by Fatih Sultan Mehmet, not Sultan Muhammad Fateh.

Regarding the Turks of that era, there are many facts that apply to them. First, they were indeed welcomed in some Bulgarian and Greek areas with bread and salt. Second, they were very practical and much less cruel to their subjects than many others. Third, they were related by blood to the ruling family of Constantinople as well as other Christian ruling families. Third, every body coveted Constantinople, which was the greatest and richest city in the world for centuries: Arabs, Latins, and Bulgarians come to mind. BTW, the Bulgarians had stopped a large Arab force early in the 8th Century because if anybody would take Tsarigrad--the City of the Caesar, it would have to be themselves!. Fourth, for at least 200 years, the Sultan promoted folks based on their intellect and merits, hereby benefiting his Christian subjects, mainly the more educated and cosmopolitan Greeks. Incidentally, Mehmet II personally vested Patriarch Gennadius shortly after taking over the city: "On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle." Wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius#Patriarch. Fifth, rape and pillage has been standard reward for the victorious armies for centuries.

That said, the movie is indeed garbage; for all her faults, Byzantium did not deserve to be conquered and rescued from her own "decadence."  Also, the Turks degenerated after Suleiman the Magnificent and their rule became very cruel indeed after him.
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« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2011, 06:44:04 PM »

I hope the cartoon alludes to the soldiers raping the women in the city.  We'd hate to leave that detail out for the kiddos.  Islam, religion of peace, tolerance, and free women for conquering soldiers.  

And just this week: for every two captive women and one slave, you get a free confiscated chalice and relic set!

And our version is probably insulting to the muslims. That's how wars usually are. Every party has it's propaganda.

Well, I can certainly see how our depiction of them slaughtering the unarmed, raping the women, enslaving the children could be totally misconstrued.  Piling up bodies in the Churches, etc.

Wait, are we talking about the Muslims, or the heroes of the Old Testament? Murdering the unarmed, enslaving kids, raping women... sounds the same to me...  Huh
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« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2011, 08:52:01 PM »

I know better to argue with Isa, but may I point out that Urdu is an Indo-European language used mostly in Pakistan.

Back to the "movie," it is certainly possible that it may have been produced by Pakistanis, with Saudi financing and under the aegis of the ISI. BTW, I had never heard Turks call the Conqueror anything by Fatih Sultan Mehmet, not Sultan Muhammad Fateh.

Regarding the Turks of that era, there are many facts that apply to them. First, they were indeed welcomed in some Bulgarian and Greek areas with bread and salt. Second, they were very practical and much less cruel to their subjects than many others. Third, they were related by blood to the ruling family of Constantinople as well as other Christian ruling families. Third, every body coveted Constantinople, which was the greatest and richest city in the world for centuries: Arabs, Latins, and Bulgarians come to mind. BTW, the Bulgarians had stopped a large Arab force early in the 8th Century because if anybody would take Tsarigrad--the City of the Caesar, it would have to be themselves!. Fourth, for at least 200 years, the Sultan promoted folks based on their intellect and merits, hereby benefiting his Christian subjects, mainly the more educated and cosmopolitan Greeks. Incidentally, Mehmet II personally vested Patriarch Gennadius shortly after taking over the city: "On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle." Wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius#Patriarch. Fifth, rape and pillage has been standard reward for the victorious armies for centuries.

That said, the movie is indeed garbage; for all her faults, Byzantium did not deserve to be conquered and rescued from her own "decadence."  Also, the Turks degenerated after Suleiman the Magnificent and their rule became very cruel indeed after him.
The only error I can read in your synopsis of the sultan's treatment of his Christian subjects is that in order to be so rewarded by the sultan for any reason or purpose these "Christians" had to convert to Islam, taking Muslim names in the process. Most of the educated aristocrats took this easy path to retaining their wealth and position while the common peasants remained in dhimmitude.

And Urdu is Turkic, but this does not disqualify it from the Indo-European language trunk.
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« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2011, 11:10:52 PM »

And Urdu is Turkic, but this does not disqualify it from the Indo-European language trunk.

No it isn't, apart from some Turkic loan words.  By definition, a Turkic language cannot be in the Indo-European language trunk.

Urdu's family is as follows (in descending order from largest to smallest):
-Indo-European (Family)  Note the map of IE languages.
-Indo-Iranian (Branch)
-Indo-Aryan  (sub-Branch)
-Central Zone
-Hindustani
-Urdu
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« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2011, 10:22:18 AM »

Whatever....I would bet I am the only one here who hears Urdu every single day at work and my ear, well used to foreign tongues, disagrees. Have you actually read your references?
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« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2011, 10:34:17 AM »

Doesn't this wiki article provide a basic understanding the what Urdu is and is not? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu

I am not a linquist, but it seems as if the Mughals brought Turkic variations into the Urdu speaking lands (much of modern Pakistan - not Turkey)  from about the 16th century, but Urdu and classic Hindu speakers can understand each other and speak to each other to this day....Is this any different from a linquists point of view than the gradual intrusion of, say Magyar words and phrasing, into some of the Slavic languages during the centuries of Magyar domination? Or for that matter the development of modern English (with a one thousand year head start?) Seems like this 'argument' is much ado about very little....
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« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2011, 11:20:55 AM »

So Hindi by definition is Indo-European, but related Urdu is not? Ooooookay...

Turkey got to be Turkey when  the Ottomans, a Turkic tribe arrived, correct?
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« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2011, 11:32:56 AM »

Again, I think this is not of much import...
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« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2011, 12:24:14 PM »

Whatever....I would bet I am the only one here who hears Urdu every single day at work and my ear, well used to foreign tongues, disagrees. Have you actually read your references?

With some slight modifications, you would lose that bet, and yes I have read my references (have you? They explained everything quite neatly).  Your ear is mistaken, and it does not determine how languages are categorized.  

So Hindi by definition is Indo-European, but related Urdu is not? Ooooookay...

Please read the wiki articles, or really any other sources on languages.  Hindi and Urdu are very closely related parts of Hindustani, which both clearly belong to the Indo-European family (Indo-Aryan sub-branch of Indo-Iranian).

Quote
Turkey got to be Turkey when  the Ottomans, a Turkic tribe arrived, correct?

Yes, but Turks speak/write Turkish (a Turkic, not Indo-European language), not Urdu.  

Again, I think this is not of much import...
Sigh... you're right, but your understanding of the Turkic migrations and loans words, along with the analogy with Magyar words making their way into Slavic languages was right on.
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« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2011, 01:35:02 PM »

Whatever....I would bet I am the only one here who hears Urdu every single day at work and my ear, well used to foreign tongues, disagrees. Have you actually read your references?

With some slight modifications, you would lose that bet, and yes I have read my references (have you? They explained everything quite neatly).  Your ear is mistaken, and it does not determine how languages are categorized.  

So Hindi by definition is Indo-European, but related Urdu is not? Ooooookay...

Please read the wiki articles, or really any other sources on languages.  Hindi and Urdu are very closely related parts of Hindustani, which both clearly belong to the Indo-European family (Indo-Aryan sub-branch of Indo-Iranian).

Quote
Turkey got to be Turkey when  the Ottomans, a Turkic tribe arrived, correct?

Yes, but Turks speak/write Turkish (a Turkic, not Indo-European language), not Urdu.  

Again, I think this is not of much import...
Sigh... you're right, but your understanding of the Turkic migrations and loans words, along with the analogy with Magyar words making their way into Slavic languages was right on.

I will give a Czech to Slovak to Rusyn/Ukrainian to Russian example, based upon geography moving from west to east on the map.

A Slovak born and living in Bratislava likely can communicate well with a  Czech born in Moravia as well as with  his fellow Slovak countrymen living near Medzilaborce and the Ukrainian border. That Slovak born and living in Medzilaborce can communicate with and understand a Rusyn/Gallician/Ukrainian living and born near Uzhorod or L'viv, Ukraine. The Ukrainian from Uzhorod or L'viv can communicate with and understand a Ukrainian born and living near Kiev. The Kievan can likely understand and communicate with a Russian born and living in Ukraine. That Russian in turn can do the same with a citizen of Moscow. The citizen of Moscow can't communicate with or understand the Slovak from Bratislava unless he learned Slovak or the Slovak learned Russian. The folk's living between Bratislava and Uzhorod, regardless of their ethnology, probably know a few Hungarian idioms as well. This I know from first hand experience and family.

I don't know as I am not from the mid-east, but my brain tells me the same principals would hold true.

Now, in the 21st century's era of mass communication etc.... these generalizations may hold less true than they did in say, 1940, but they remain, never the less.

As I said earlier, an interesting subject, but not really germane to the truth about Mehmet and his
conquest and degradation of the New Rome.
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« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2011, 01:37:30 PM »

Again, I think this is not of much import...

Chuckle, I agree there. I accept correction and have no overriding yen to be right in Internet forum argument, unlike others. BTW, I never linked Urdu with Turkey directly, or did I?  Cheesy
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« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2011, 01:41:54 PM »

Just last night my wife and I rescreened the movie, Ararat. It's a heady slog dealing with  a backdrop of the Armenian genocide by the Turks in 1915. It's germaine to this discussion in that the movie alludes numerous times to the modern Turkish denial of these events. There is no surprise that a Moslem version of the Fall of Constantinople should be any more faithful to the facts of history.
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« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2011, 01:53:39 PM »

Just last night my wife and I rescreened the movie, Ararat. It's a heady slog dealing with  a backdrop of the Armenian genocide by the Turks in 1915. It's germaine to this discussion in that the movie alludes numerous times to the modern Turkish denial of these events. There is no surprise that a Moslem version of the Fall of Constantinople should be any more faithful to the facts of history.

I would be shocked if they presented a film on the subject that was even ever so slightly balanced so it is no surprise.
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« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2011, 01:59:19 PM »

Just FYI on the language debate you're having here: Disinterested linguists classify Hindi and Urdu as mutually intelligible varieties of the same language. When written in Devanagari by Hindus, it is referred to as "Hindi"; when written in Perso-Arabic by Muslims, it is referred to as "Urdu". The differences that do exist between them are not great enough to substantiate the claim that they are different languages, but they are treated as such for communal/religious, cultural, and political reasons. This is not at all uncommon; see: the Serbian-Croatian-Montenegrin continuum in the former Yugoslavia, Moldovan-Romanian in the former USSR, etc.

Urdu is in no way a Turkic language.
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« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2011, 02:12:04 PM »

Just FYI on the language debate you're having here: Disinterested linguists classify Hindi and Urdu as mutually intelligible varieties of the same language. When written in Devanagari by Hindus, it is referred to as "Hindi"; when written in Perso-Arabic by Muslims, it is referred to as "Urdu". The differences that do exist between them are not great enough to substantiate the claim that they are different languages, but they are treated as such for communal/religious, cultural, and political reasons. This is not at all uncommon; see: the Serbian-Croatian-Montenegrin continuum in the former Yugoslavia, Moldovan-Romanian in the former USSR, etc.
the only problem is that on the basis that linquists deny that Urdu and Hindi are seperate languages, Swedish and Danish wouldn't be seperate languages, and then there is Norwegian, one language in two forms.  Same with Yiddish and German etc.

Urdu is in no way a Turkic language.
no, just heavily inflenced, including its name: it comes from the Persian speaking Turkic rulers using the language of the camp (ordu)
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« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2011, 02:33:52 PM »

the only problem is that on the basis that linquists deny that Urdu and Hindi are seperate languages, Swedish and Danish wouldn't be seperate languages, and then there is Norwegian, one language in two forms.  Same with Yiddish and German etc.

And? I fail to see how that is a problem. Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian can be treated as forming a kind of dialect continuum (loosely, as I do not mean to imply that speakers on either end cannot understand one another), in that the existence of codified national varieties that differ from one another in some ways does not prevent them from being mutually intelligible (a Swedish acquaintance once told me that Danes basically speak "Swedish with porridge in their mouths") . Norway's Bokmal and Nynorsk situation is not a problem any more than having different forms of German somehow makes Swiss German and "standard" German different languages. And Yiddish and German could be comparable to, say, Ladino and Spanish. I speak Spanish more or less natively (since the age of 4), and what little Ladino I have been exposed to was no problem whatsoever (in fact, with my little Arabic training I didn't even have trouble with the Hebrew-derived words; it is not hard to figure out what "Mose salio de Misrain" means).

I am aware that there is no strict line between dialect and language, and I suppose I am more of a lumper than a splitter, to probably misuse the popular terms, but...really, man, come on. I don't even understand why this is being argued about.

Quote
no, just heavily inflenced, including its name: it comes from the Persian speaking Turkic rulers using the language of the camp (ordu)

Yes, fine.
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« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2011, 04:50:09 PM »

Chuckle, I agree there. I accept correction and have no overriding yen to be right in Internet forum argument, unlike others. BTW, I never linked Urdu with Turkey directly, or did I?  Cheesy

No need for the bolded comment or defensiveness in general.  If you reread the thread, you're the one who made it a bit nasty by throwing in the "whatever..." comment and appealing to your experience/authority on the matter.  I was only trying to correct a mistake.

By the way, internet forum arguments are the most important thing ever, FACT!  Note the bold font, all capped proclamation of the statement as a fact (which then becomes impossible to argue), followed by an exclamation point for good measure.

We can agree that Podkarpatska is right though, and we all look rather silly arguing over linguistic definitions in a thread about a Jack Chickesque Muslim cartoon.
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« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2011, 08:04:36 PM »

Whatever.
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« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2011, 08:33:57 PM »

Whatever.

Touché and nice!  Grin
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« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2011, 09:15:43 AM »


Anytime, filoz mou.  Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2012, 04:25:23 PM »

BUMP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZI_XzFvNEU
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« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2012, 04:28:23 PM »

Why do the Turks speak of "liberating the populace of Constantinople from the oppressive emperor". The Tourkokratia can hardly be called a liberation.
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« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2012, 05:15:04 PM »

So Hindi by definition is Indo-European, but related Urdu is not? Ooooookay...

Turkey got to be Turkey when  the Ottomans, a Turkic tribe arrived, correct?

Turkey got to be Turkey much later, 1923 to be exact. Before that, the Ottoman Turks fancied themselves to be like the Ancient Romans. There was only one free man, the Sultan, and everybody else was an Osmanli (that is Ottoman).  Of course, the Turkish Ottomans were first class citizens, non Turkish but Muslim Ottomans, second class citizens, and the Christian Ottomans were dhimmis.
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« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2012, 05:48:45 PM »

Why do the Turks speak of "liberating the populace of Constantinople from the oppressive emperor". The Tourkokratia can hardly be called a liberation.

That's the funny thing about history. Its winners have a different point of view than its losers. That is one truth which is universal!
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« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2012, 05:49:54 PM »

Chuckle, I agree there. I accept correction and have no overriding yen to be right in Internet forum argument, unlike others. BTW, I never linked Urdu with Turkey directly, or did I?  Cheesy

No need for the bolded comment or defensiveness in general.  If you reread the thread, you're the one who made it a bit nasty by throwing in the "whatever..." comment and appealing to your experience/authority on the matter.  I was only trying to correct a mistake.

By the way, internet forum arguments are the most important thing ever, FACT!  Note the bold font, all capped proclamation of the statement as a fact (which then becomes impossible to argue), followed by an exclamation point for good measure.

We can agree that Podkarpatska is right though, and we all look rather silly arguing over linguistic definitions in a thread about a Jack Chickesque Muslim cartoon.


I can't believe I missed this comment a year ago.  Purely awesome.
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« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2012, 06:13:55 PM »

Why do the Turks speak of "liberating the populace of Constantinople from the oppressive emperor". The Tourkokratia can hardly be called a liberation.

That's the funny thing about history. Its winners have a different point of view than its losers. That is one truth which is universal!

At least they could have come up with a more plausible story.
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« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2012, 08:37:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I wonder how our movie would look like.  Cheesy

I'm thinking..


There was of course this beautiful piece of art as well but its not exactly the same period nor really ours is it..



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2013, 12:40:00 AM »

The fall of Constantinople
 
Can't Wait until the Marble Emperor awakens Cheesy
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« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2013, 12:53:05 AM »

Just last night my wife and I rescreened the movie, Ararat. It's a heady slog dealing with  a backdrop of the Armenian genocide by the Turks in 1915. It's germaine to this discussion in that the movie alludes numerous times to the modern Turkish denial of these events. There is no surprise that a Moslem version of the Fall of Constantinople should be any more faithful to the facts of history.

Given the historical hack-job that is the Koran...
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« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2013, 12:55:56 AM »

Why do the Turks speak of "liberating the populace of Constantinople from the oppressive emperor". The Tourkokratia can hardly be called a liberation.

Better the Turkish turban than that Latin miter. It's all about perspective.

But, yeah, I don't think the raped and murdered populace of Constantinople felt very liberated.
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« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2013, 12:57:10 AM »

So Hindi by definition is Indo-European, but related Urdu is not? Ooooookay...

Turkey got to be Turkey when  the Ottomans, a Turkic tribe arrived, correct?

Turkey got to be Turkey much later, 1923 to be exact. Before that, the Ottoman Turks fancied themselves to be like the Ancient Romans. There was only one free man, the Sultan, and everybody else was an Osmanli (that is Ottoman).  Of course, the Turkish Ottomans were first class citizens, non Turkish but Muslim Ottomans, second class citizens, and the Christian Ottomans were dhimmis.

I'm missing the Ancient Roman connection.
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« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2013, 12:58:31 AM »

The fall of Constantinople
 
Can't Wait until the Marble Emperor awakens Cheesy

Me neither.
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« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2013, 02:38:50 AM »

Its winners have a different point of view than its losers.

Kinda how we demonize Muslims for how they treated us, but ignore how we treated pagans so badly when we forced them to convert? Or when Roman Catholics say they liberated the Aztecs from barbarism like human sacrifice, yet baptized their infants and then shattered their heads against the trees so that they wouldn't become pagans when they grew up?
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« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2013, 03:11:39 AM »

The treatment and conversion of pagans changed (ever so slightly) from Early Christian times to the Medieval / Teutonic times where you could say the treatment (War) against the Pagans in Lithuania ( I believe) where treated very harshly and villages were ransacked and burned by Teutonic Knights. (Although the Teutonic Order did attack weaker Christian states as well in its strive for expansion.

(In the early 13th century, Lithuania was inhabited by various pagan Baltic tribes, which began to organize themselves into a state – the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.)
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« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2013, 07:42:27 PM »

And our version is probably insulting to the muslims.
Michael Kritobulos was a Byzantine historian who personally witnessed the conquest of Constantinople in 1453, and he befriended and writes favorably of Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror.  As I understand, his book is perhaps the only known Byzantine history of the city itself for the first ten years after the conquest. 

Dimitri Kitsikis is a modern Greek historian who advocates a customs and political union of Greeece with Turkey as a basis for a revived Ottoman empire.  He asserts that the two peoples (Greeks and Turks) have had common enemies for a thousand years in the form of western capitalism and colonialism and that the conquest in 1453 was the greatest thing that could have happened to the Orthodox Church giving it extensive power to the Patriarchates which they had lacked in the Paleologan era and a blow to the Uniates and Latinizers.
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« Reply #75 on: March 16, 2013, 10:40:49 PM »

I think Venetzia and Frankistan Crusaders kill Romaoi Stamboul in 1204.  Romaoi never recover.  Easy pickings for Osmanli.  Angeloi dynasty very bad.  Help bring Crusader Varvari to Stamboul.  Basili Michael take back Stamboul in 1269 something.  Romaoi (Vizanti) focus then on Stamboul, forget Iznik (Nicaea).  Osmanli take Iznik, take Gallibolou, take Bulgaristan.  Romaoi all done fifty years before Mehmed Fatih take Stamboul.  Mehmed give only coup de grace.  This why Yunani and all pravoslavie hate Pope more than hate Osmanli padishah.  Though they hate Osmanli very much.
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« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2013, 10:58:47 PM »

I think Venetzia and Frankistan Crusaders kill Romaoi Stamboul in 1204.  Romaoi never recover.  Easy pickings for Osmanli.  Angeloi dynasty very bad.  Help bring Crusader Varvari to Stamboul.  Basili Michael take back Stamboul in 1269 something.  Romaoi (Vizanti) focus then on Stamboul, forget Iznik (Nicaea).  Osmanli take Iznik, take Gallibolou, take Bulgaristan.  Romaoi all done fifty years before Mehmed Fatih take Stamboul.  Mehmed give only coup de grace.  This why Yunani and all pravoslavie hate Pope more than hate Osmanli padishah.  Though they hate Osmanli very much.
For what it is worth, Michael Kritobulos records that when Mehmed the Conqueror observed his army overruning and pillaging the city after he entered in the gate, he shed tears and respectfully cried 'Oh, but what a great city we have destroyed!'
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