A simple question for Judaism

[ialmisry]

Is Isa a YEC believer?

YEC?

[biro]

Young Earth Creationist.

[Achronos]

Always wondered if Isa is a compatibilist or incompatibilist

[Jetavan]

Always wondered if Isa is a compatibilist or incompatibilist

I think Isa was just referring to the Jewish calendar, in which it's the year 5772.

[ialmisry]

Always wondered if Isa is a compatibilist or incompatibilist

LOL. Compatibilist (if that is the only two choices; science can be incompatible with Faith, but need not be), but I found evolutionary theory incompatible with science and reason studying evolutionary biology (elementary, though) at the University of Chicago.  That things change over time is a dogmatic proof taught by religion.

and yeah, I only was going by JV's apparent appeal to the Jewish calendar.  Truth be told, it should be just 1300 years or so waiting, as the Penteteuch was only written at the earliest by Moses, at least according to Tradition, both Chrisitian and Jewish (leaving aside pre-existence thoughts of the latter).

[Achronos]

Isa,

I have a question about the whole authorship of Moses on the Pentetauch. Why would he talk about himself in the 3rd person? It doesn't make sense to me.

Also I agree 100% about the change over time as dogamtic proof taught by religion.

I'm still trying to understand what you mean that science can be incompatible with faith. Are you saying there are things science tells us that is arbitray?

I also don't believe in the change in speciation from a common source, I don't know alot of that doesn't really matter to me either way.

[rakovsky]

There was an interesting answer from author and Rabbi Dr. Jacob Neusner. He said the reason he did not become a Christian was that Christ said He was come to set a man against his father (Mt. 10:35). (I'm paraphrasing.) Neusner said one of the most important beliefs in Judaism was to take care of your family no matter what. He could not get used to the idea of separating from your family even if it was for reasons of faith.

I guess the biggest thing a Jewish person would have to give up to become Christian would be the sense that the Messiah had not come yet, because they are still waiting for him, whereas we believe Christ fulfills that status. Just my thoughts.

BTW Jacob is wrong, what Christ is saying is that you cannot love someone more than God.

Could you please explain what you mean? Thanks.

[Achronos]

There was an interesting answer from author and Rabbi Dr. Jacob Neusner. He said the reason he did not become a Christian was that Christ said He was come to set a man against his father (Mt. 10:35). (I'm paraphrasing.) Neusner said one of the most important beliefs in Judaism was to take care of your family no matter what. He could not get used to the idea of separating from your family even if it was for reasons of faith.

I guess the biggest thing a Jewish person would have to give up to become Christian would be the sense that the Messiah had not come yet, because they are still waiting for him, whereas we believe Christ fulfills that status. Just my thoughts.

BTW Jacob is wrong, what Christ is saying is that you cannot love someone more than God.

Could you please explain what you mean? Thanks.

In other words put your family above God

[ialmisry]

Isa,

I have a question about the whole authorship of Moses on the Pentetauch. Why would he talk about himself in the 3rd person? It doesn't make sense to me.

I still haven't had the first coffee.

I don't think it is necessary to believe that Moses sat down and wrote from "In the beginning....." to "in the signt of Israel."  But if he did, it wouldn't be hard to explain.  Leaving aside theological interpretations, it could be just convention.  Speaking in the 3rd person is not that unknown, the Ancient Southern Arabian Languages (related to Amharic, Geez etc. in Ethiopia but showing relations with Canaanite) we have no attestation of the 2d and 1st persons, as its writting convensions put everything in the 3d person.  In the Gospel, Christ on occassion speaks in the 3rd person, e.g. "The Son of Man came to save men's lives, not to destroy them."

Also I agree 100% about the change over time as dogamtic proof taught by religion.

I'm still trying to understand what you mean that science can be incompatible with faith. Are you saying there are things science tells us that is arbitray?

Some things God created just so we would go "ooo, that's cool!"

Other things science can do but shouldn't even try, e.g. cloning persons for spare parts (btw, parents have had children the old fashioned way for the same reason, and that's wrong as well).

Some science is just misguided, like phlogiston.

I also don't believe in the change in speciation from a common source, I don't know alot of that doesn't really matter to me either way.

ditto.

[orthonorm]

NVM!

[JLatimer]

PHLOGISTON!

[biro]

Shazaam!

[Andrew Crook]

aw man and I was so hoping for a really interesting conversation between "Jewish Voice" and "ialmisry"..

[Achronos]

I still haven't had the first coffee.

I don't think it is necessary to believe that Moses sat down and wrote from "In the beginning....." to "in the signt of Israel."  But if he did, it wouldn't be hard to explain.  Leaving aside theological interpretations, it could be just convention.  Speaking in the 3rd person is not that unknown, the Ancient Southern Arabian Languages (related to Amharic, Geez etc. in Ethiopia but showing relations with Canaanite) we have no attestation of the 2d and 1st persons, as its writting convensions put everything in the 3d person.  In the Gospel, Christ on occassion speaks in the 3rd person, e.g. "The Son of Man came to save men's lives, not to destroy them."

Thanks Isa,

On another note, are you aware of the documentary hypothesis which asserts that there were multiple authors of the Pentetuch?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

I read up on Whybray's refutation which was excellent, basically he says that one author derived from various traditions and didn't really make note of any literary consistency nor kept the same style or language.

Some things God created just so we would go "ooo, that's cool!"

I would say all of creation is awe inspiring.

But that's the wild eyed romantic talking.

Other things science can do but shouldn't even try, e.g. cloning persons for spare parts (btw, parents have had children the old fashioned way for the same reason, and that's wrong as well).

Ah cloning, that seems like a can of worms to me.

Some science is just misguided, like phlogiston.

LOL

[biro]

Why are people afraid someone will clone whole humans? Aren't there lots of people in the world right now? 

I'm hoping they'll come up with synthetic organs for transplants, so this whole creepy thing about harvesting won't happen. They can make artificial heart pumps and artificial limbs, and hopefully they'll keep going that way.

[Jetavan]

Why are people afraid someone will clone whole humans? Aren't there lots of people in the world right now? 

I'm hoping they'll come up with synthetic organs for transplants, so this whole creepy thing about harvesting won't happen. They can make artificial heart pumps and artificial limbs, and hopefully they'll keep going that way.

Eternal life, thanks to technology?

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

My two cents:

Many Jews across history have converted.  Countless change their names in their conversions and become locals.  It is in this process that Jewish folks lose their ethnic identity and so many others opt not to convert, because up until relatively modern times conversion implied abandoning Jewish cultural and ethnic identity.  In a lot of European and Western Asian societies, to be  Christian was and is a kind of ethnicity of its own.  So I would say then the folks who decide not to convert, be it two-thousand years ago, during the Middle Ages, or even today, do so for the same kinds of complicated sociocultural and specifically historical reasons why we still have a split between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. We all know that we say many of the same things in different ways and that the things we actually disagree upon can be mutually tolerated, however the complex history of regional politics and culture clash really muddy up the relationship.  We simply have too much mutual baggage in our history.  I think with Jews and the Church, especially in the context of expulsions and pogroms, we just have way to much baggage for Jews to be able to settle their differences.  Perhaps many feel in their heart the reverberating Truth of the Church and of Jesus Christ our Lord, however they would have to counter a lot of history to be able to take that kind of leap.  We then could have a very good understanding of the Jewish perspective, both within and outside the Church, if we view them through our own familiar lenses of the relationship between Eastern and Oriental.

This is what I believe is allegorized in the passages in the Gospel which state

Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

The Church does not reject family, quite the opposite, family is quite literally Sacramental and therefore sanctified, the marriage and family bond indissoluble.  However, if you are from  a Jewish family and marry into a Christian family, well, there is a lot of mutual conflict there, and most of it historical, regional, local, cultural, political, and rarely actually religious.  

If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

This is also an encrypted message about conversion in the Jewish era of the Church (which lasted not just through the first, but even up until the sixth century) which speaks about the threat the Church has to Jewish ethnic and cultural identity.  All of life in Jewish society is oriented around Temple/Synagogue just as ours is oriented around our parish or church.  In this Gospel passage, we see that to become a Christian is perceived by the Jewish folks as a threat to their "temple and nation" and this passage was not just in the context specifically of the priestly class, but of Jewish identity in general.  When Jews convert, it is a challenge to those other Jews who don't convert, and ethnic, familial, and cultural bonds and patterns shift towards to the conversion, towards to integration into the new.  Converts all have a similar story, and with Jewish identity, it has simply been harder to integrate both into the Christian identity, because of the historical baggage.  In many respects, political factions of Christians in history have waged outright war with Jews, sometimes mutually, sometimes vindictively, and so Jews rightfully have perceived Christians has a threat.  This is that baggage which is hard for Jews to overcome in order to embrace Conversion, and I would say then that it is truly the Holy Spirit that brings anyone forward.

In the Protestant traditions, there are many popular misinterpretations of Romans 11 which have spurred an almost dangerous Christian Zionism.  These folks are the ultimate Jewish apologists, in that they claim that God has preserved the distinctness of Jewish identity precisely for some kind of miraculous en masse conversion at the Second Coming, and apparently all Jews of all history will be miraculously redeemed by the Grace of their having been ethnically Jewish.  We in the Church know that the covenants with Jews were revoked, and the New Covenant of the Church is the New Israel, and the "Israel of God" which Paul mentioned.  Jews within the Church are still ethnically Jews, if anything they fulfill the covenants all the more by participating in the New Covenant and the Sacramental Life of the Church.  God still knows their history, their family tree, and He sanctifies them all the more by being in the Church, which was precisely sent into the world to save the Jews first, then the Gentiles.  Peter to the Circumcision, Paul to the Uncircumcision, and so Jews must be a part of the Church, not outside.  There is no Grace outside the Church, or rather it surely takes a lot of Grace to find God outside of His Church

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[ialmisry]

Why are people afraid someone will clone whole humans? Aren't there lots of people in the world right now? 

I'm hoping they'll come up with synthetic organs for transplants, so this whole creepy thing about harvesting won't happen. They can make artificial heart pumps and artificial limbs, and hopefully they'll keep going that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_(2005_film)

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