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Author Topic: A simple question for Judaism  (Read 5019 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 16, 2011, 07:29:35 PM »

What does a Jew have to lose in order to become a Christian?
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2011, 07:37:30 PM »

Are you asking why Jews don't become Christians, with the idea that they perhaps have nothing to lose? Or are you asking what they must give up (beliefs? worldly things? mindset?) in order to become Christians?
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2011, 07:40:20 PM »

Are you asking why Jews don't become Christians, with the idea that they perhaps have nothing to lose?

This.
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2011, 07:44:13 PM »

There was an interesting answer from author and Rabbi Dr. Jacob Neusner. He said the reason he did not become a Christian was that Christ said He was come to set a man against his father (Mt. 10:35). (I'm paraphrasing.) Neusner said one of the most important beliefs in Judaism was to take care of your family no matter what. He could not get used to the idea of separating from your family even if it was for reasons of faith.

I guess the biggest thing a Jewish person would have to give up to become Christian would be the sense that the Messiah had not come yet, because they are still waiting for him, whereas we believe Christ fulfills that status. Just my thoughts.
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2011, 07:46:49 PM »

Are you asking why Jews don't become Christians, with the idea that they perhaps have nothing to lose?

This.

Well, if they think Christianity is bunk and they convert anyway, they would lose a significant degree of integrity that they had. If they aren't sure but convert, that's a bit different, though still IMO nonsensical. Also, if Pascal will forgive me, anyone who makes that type of decision for Chrisitanity potentially has a ton to lose. They only come out better (with a gain) if Christianity turns out being right; it's wrong to say that if Christianity is wrong they are none the worse.
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2011, 07:47:36 PM »

There was an interesting answer from author and Rabbi Dr. Jacob Neusner. He said the reason he did not become a Christian was that Christ said He was come to set a man against his father (Mt. 10:35). (I'm paraphrasing.) Neusner said one of the most important beliefs in Judaism was to take care of your family no matter what. He could not get used to the idea of separating from your family even if it was for reasons of faith.

I guess the biggest thing a Jewish person would have to give up to become Christian would be the sense that the Messiah had not come yet, because they are still waiting for him, whereas we believe Christ fulfills that status. Just my thoughts.

Wouldn't it seem like, for the Jew, that God had abandoned them in the sense by the destruction of the second Temple?

BTW Jacob is wrong, what Christ is saying is that you cannot love someone more than God. And there are other passages which support the family unit.
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2011, 07:54:43 PM »

BTW love the Mayan faith thing LOL.

Well, if they think Christianity is bunk and they convert anyway, they would lose a significant degree of integrity that they had. If they aren't sure but convert, that's a bit different, though still IMO nonsensical. Also, if Pascal will forgive me, anyone who makes that type of decision for Chrisitanity potentially has a ton to lose. They only come out better (with a gain) if Christianity turns out being right; it's wrong to say that if Christianity is wrong they are none the worse.

And that's where this kind of discussion would probably end up is something along Pascal's Wager. However even with the wager it is still being taken out of context in the Pensees because it isn't an argument for conversion, and I agree one shouldn't base one's faith of it however I still have always found that argument to be compelling to me.

It's one of the reasons why I accept God exists, because I don't see a reason not to. Or an afterlife for that matter, there is nothing telling me to accept the contrary.

This raises another question, even if a Jew was to convert to Christianity, and let's assume that Christianity is false, and that Jew dies are they still held accountable for believing in a false Messiah?

And another thing, if Christ was a false Messiah then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept Christ as the Messiah? And to add to that, if Christ is false then how is He the most influential figure in all of history?

I think this places the Jew in a tricky situation because if God was to bring a Messiah to save His people, how much harder would it be for the 2 billion Christians worldwide to renounce their faith and to convert?

If there are no ramifications for the Jew, besides integrity, to accept Christ, then why not?
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2011, 03:57:45 AM »

A Jew has to give up his strict monotheist (non-trinitarian, very emphasized in some groups of Jews and part of official teaching of Judaism). He must also be willing to be considered no longer a part of the Jewish people by most Jews.
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2011, 07:25:58 AM »

A Jew has to give up his strict monotheist (non-trinitarian, very emphasized in some groups of Jews and part of official teaching of Judaism).
Are you saying that there are two types of strict monotheism: trinitarian and non-trinitarian?
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2011, 07:30:35 AM »

"And another thing, if Christ was a false Messiah then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept Christ as the Messiah?"

Your question can be restated thusly: If Muhammad was a false prophet, then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept Muhammad as a prophet?

Or perhaps like this: If the Papacy is a false doctrine, then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept the Papacy as a true doctrine?

Perhaps this way: If sola scriptura is heresy, then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept sola scriptura?

You could also ask this: If Zeus doesn't exist, then why would God have allowed/deceived so many people into accepting Zeus as existing?
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 10:27:48 AM »

"And another thing, if Christ was a false Messiah then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept Christ as the Messiah?"

Your question can be restated thusly: If Muhammad was a false prophet, then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept Muhammad as a prophet?

Or perhaps like this: If the Papacy is a false doctrine, then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept the Papacy as a true doctrine?

Perhaps this way: If sola scriptura is heresy, then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept sola scriptura?

You could also ask this: If Zeus doesn't exist, then why would God have allowed/deceived so many people into accepting Zeus as existing?

1/4 of the world is Christian
1/3 of the world is Muslim
Another massive chunk is Buddhist
Another massive chunk is Hindu

The truth is a narrow path as stated by God.  This means there will be a very narrow amount of people who find their way down it.  Broad is the way to destruction.
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2011, 10:47:55 AM »

"And another thing, if Christ was a false Messiah then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept Christ as the Messiah?"

Your question can be restated thusly: If Muhammad was a false prophet, then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept Muhammad as a prophet?

Or perhaps like this: If the Papacy is a false doctrine, then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept the Papacy as a true doctrine?

Perhaps this way: If sola scriptura is heresy, then why would God allow/deceive so many people to accept sola scriptura?

You could also ask this: If Zeus doesn't exist, then why would God have allowed/deceived so many people into accepting Zeus as existing?

1/4 of the world is Christian
1/3 of the world is Muslim
Another massive chunk is Buddhist
Another massive chunk is Hindu

The truth is a narrow path as stated by God.  This means there will be a very narrow amount of people who find their way down it.  Broad is the way to destruction.
Baha'is make up .07% of the human population. That's pretty narrow.
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2011, 11:56:34 AM »

If there are no ramifications for the Jew, besides integrity, to accept Christ, then why not?

Without integrity and sincerity a man is eternally lost, I think.
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2011, 12:12:40 PM »

What does a Jew have to lose in order to become a Christian?
Not even the scar.

Just the deviations from the Old Testament introduced by the rabbis.
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2011, 05:52:29 PM »

it's wrong to say that if Christianity is wrong they are none the worse.

Why?
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2011, 05:59:05 PM »

it's wrong to say that if Christianity is wrong they are none the worse.

Why?

 Huh Seriously?
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2011, 06:04:08 PM »

it's wrong to say that if Christianity is wrong they are none the worse.

Why?

 Huh Seriously?

Yes. Seriously.
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2011, 06:19:09 PM »

Time, money, meaning/purpose, enjoyment/happiness, etc. come to mind. Unless, of course, you don't care whether it's right and will be happy regardless.
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2011, 06:19:50 PM »

What does a Jew have to lose in order to become a Christian?
I'm sorry bout I will have to do the up most Jewish way in answering your question with a question  Cheesy
What does a Christian or ( Achronos) have to lose in order to become a Jew ?
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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2011, 06:57:56 PM »

A Jew has to give up his strict monotheist (non-trinitarian, very emphasized in some groups of Jews and part of official teaching of Judaism).
Are you saying that there are two types of strict monotheism: trinitarian and non-trinitarian?

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).  

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.


Why does a Jew even need to ask "What is God like?  How many Persons is he?"  he usually asks "How best can I do and obey God's will?" Only the Greeks and all of their philosophy would feel an incessant urge to try to comprehend, He who is Incomprehensible.
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« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2011, 07:04:32 PM »

Did you copy that from somewhere? A Muslim site, perhaps? The "attributing partners" bit is a dead giveaway.
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2011, 07:21:44 PM »

Did you copy that from somewhere? A Muslim site, perhaps? The "attributing partners" bit is a dead giveaway.

No, these are just my thoughts. 
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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2011, 08:49:59 PM »

A Jew has to give up his strict monotheist (non-trinitarian, very emphasized in some groups of Jews and part of official teaching of Judaism).
Are you saying that there are two types of strict monotheism: trinitarian and non-trinitarian?

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).  

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.


Why does a Jew even need to ask "What is God like?  How many Persons is he?"  he usually asks "How best can I do and obey God's will?" Only the Greeks and all of their philosophy would feel an incessant urge to try to comprehend, He who is Incomprehensible.

For what it's worth, someone in a thread a while back, mentioned how the (I believe) Zohar speaks of the possibility of multiple Persons of God, but the thread managed to die before this was ever explored.
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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2011, 10:24:31 PM »

 James I think this is what you are talking about

'The Ancient of Days has three heads. He reveals himself in three archetypes, all three forming but one. He is thus symbolized by the number Three. They are revealed in one another. [These are:] first, secret, hidden 'Wisdom'; above that the Holy Ancient One; and above Him the Unknowable One. None knows what He contains; He is above all conception. He is therefore called for man 'Non-Existing' [Ayin]'"[17] (Zohar, iii. 288b).

However, many passages in the Zohar talk about the unity and uniqueness of God, in the Jewish understanding of it, rather than the Trinity. One of the most common phrases in the Zohar is "raza d'yichuda "the secret of his Unity" which describes the Oneness of God as completely indivisible, even in spiritual terms.

The above phrase of the three heads, according to the kabbalists has extremely different connotations, as it is known that the Zohar is written in heavily coded terms according to Jewish tradition, and its true meaning is revealed only to the very righteous. However, the simple meaning of that above phrase, according to Jewish sources, has no relation at all to the Trinity. According to Judaism, God Himself is incomprehensible.

However, our relation to God is His Divine Presence. This may be comparable to a man in a room - there is the man himself, and his presence and relationship to others in the room. In Hebrew, this is known as the "Shechinah". It is also the concept of God's Name - it is His relationship and presence in the world towards us. The Wisdom (literally written as Field of Apples) in kabbalistic terms refers to the Shechinah, the Divine Presence. The Unknowable One (literally written as the Miniature Presence) refers to events on earth when events can be understood as natural happenings instead of God's act, although it is actually the act of God. This is known as perceiving the Shechinah through a blurry, cloudy lens. This means to say, although we see God's Presence (not God Himself) through natural occurrences also, it is only through a blurry lens, as opposed to miracles, in which we clearly see and recognize God's presence in the world. The Holy Ancient One refers to God Himself, Who is imperceivable. (see Minchas Yaakov and anonymous commentary in the Siddur Beis Yaakov on the Sabbath hymn of Askinu Seudasa, composed by the Arizal based on this lofty concept of the Zohar). This is the simple understanding of that phrase in the Zohar by Jews, however, as understood, there are many deeper and secret kabbalistic interpretations which are not open to the public.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, "This and other similar doctrines found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity, but the Christian scholars who were led by the similarity of these teachings to certain Christian dogmas deemed it their duty to propagate the Zohar."[17]
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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2011, 10:44:52 PM »

A Jew has to give up his strict monotheist (non-trinitarian, very emphasized in some groups of Jews and part of official teaching of Judaism).
Are you saying that there are two types of strict monotheism: trinitarian and non-trinitarian?

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).  

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.


Why does a Jew even need to ask "What is God like?  How many Persons is he?"  he usually asks "How best can I do and obey God's will?" Only the Greeks and all of their philosophy would feel an incessant urge to try to comprehend, He who is Incomprehensible.
That's a Bingo! You grasp this difference well. I hope that God uses this in you to witness to others, that they may know our Father in Heaven and glorify Him.
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« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2011, 10:48:45 PM »

A Jew has to give up his strict monotheist (non-trinitarian, very emphasized in some groups of Jews and part of official teaching of Judaism).
Are you saying that there are two types of strict monotheism: trinitarian and non-trinitarian?

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).  

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.


Why does a Jew even need to ask "What is God like?  How many Persons is he?"  he usually asks "How best can I do and obey God's will?" Only the Greeks and all of their philosophy would feel an incessant urge to try to comprehend, He who is Incomprehensible.
That's a Bingo! You grasp this difference well. I hope that God uses this in you to witness to others, that they may know our Father in Heaven and glorify Him.

I seriously doubt God would want to use someone like me.  I barely even deserve the label "Christian", I am a tormented soul.  Please pray for me.
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« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2011, 10:52:34 PM »

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).
For what its worth, I think the title "monotheism" should be rejected entirely. It fails, in my opinion, at accurately portraying our understanding of God.

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.
I think you should bear in mind that the "Judaism" present during the time of the apostles was quite different than modern-day Judaism (or what people associate with the term). For one, the Jews of Christ's time were somewhat Hellenized (i.e. use of the Septuagint, etc.), so it should not be surprising that certain non-Hebrew concepts were brought into the field. In fact, it was not until the sacking of Jerusalem in 5578 AM (AD 70) that Hellenization was "purged" and true "Judaization" accomplished.
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« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2011, 10:55:26 PM »

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).
For what its worth, I think the title "monotheism" should be rejected entirely. It fails, in my opinion, at accurately portraying our understanding of God.

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.
I think you should bear in mind that the "Judaism" present during the time of the apostles was quite different than modern-day Judaism (or what people associate with the term). For one, the Jews of Christ's time were somewhat Hellenized (i.e. use of the Septuagint, etc.), so it should not be surprising that certain non-Hebrew concepts were brought into the field. In fact, it was not until the sacking of Jerusalem in 5578 AM (AD 70) that Hellenization was "purged" and true "Judaization" accomplished.

I agree with you Ioannis, there were various Jewish groups going about at the time.  The Pharisees were simply one among many.  The Jews of Alexandria especially (i.e. Philo) definitley borrowed Hellenistic concepts. 
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« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2011, 11:44:43 PM »

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).
For what its worth, I think the title "monotheism" should be rejected entirely. It fails, in my opinion, at accurately portraying our understanding of God.

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.
I think you should bear in mind that the "Judaism" present during the time of the apostles was quite different than modern-day Judaism (or what people associate with the term). For one, the Jews of Christ's time were somewhat Hellenized (i.e. use of the Septuagint, etc.), so it should not be surprising that certain non-Hebrew concepts were brought into the field. In fact, it was not until the sacking of Jerusalem in 5578 AM (AD 70) that Hellenization was "purged" and true "Judaization" accomplished.
That is hogwash I'm tired of seeing this come up over and over by some christians, yes there were a few different branches that left Judaism but however there was a very strong Orthodox line just like there is today. Just like they try to say the Jews changed things after christians but with the DSS find showing that the Jewish texts match 95% were as the LXX only match's what oh yea 5% nothing was changed in Judaism on the texts and major points on faith.
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« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2011, 12:12:06 AM »

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).
For what its worth, I think the title "monotheism" should be rejected entirely. It fails, in my opinion, at accurately portraying our understanding of God.

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.
I think you should bear in mind that the "Judaism" present during the time of the apostles was quite different than modern-day Judaism (or what people associate with the term). For one, the Jews of Christ's time were somewhat Hellenized (i.e. use of the Septuagint, etc.), so it should not be surprising that certain non-Hebrew concepts were brought into the field. In fact, it was not until the sacking of Jerusalem in 5578 AM (AD 70) that Hellenization was "purged" and true "Judaization" accomplished.
That is hogwash I'm tired of seeing this come up over and over by some christians, yes there were a few different branches that left Judaism but however there was a very strong Orthodox line just like there is today. Just like they try to say the Jews changed things after christians but with the DSS find showing that the Jewish texts match 95% were as the LXX only match's what oh yea 5% nothing was changed in Judaism on the texts and major points on faith.

Okay jewish voice, you have my attention... tell us more.  I take it you're also referring to the idea of the "Council of Jamnia", when mentioned by Christians?
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« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2011, 12:14:00 AM »

That is hogwash I'm tired of seeing this come up over and over by some christians, yes there were a few different branches that left Judaism but however there was a very strong Orthodox line just like there is today. Just like they try to say the Jews changed things after christians but with the DSS find showing that the Jewish texts match 95% were as the LXX only match's what oh yea 5% nothing was changed in Judaism on the texts and major points on faith.
Emphasis mine.

I would call adherence to the Babylonian Talmud a pretty significant change. It has completely revolutionized the way Jews interpret Sacred Scripture.

Where's the priesthood?

Also, could you provide me with a source that supports the idea that "Jewish texts match 95% were as the LXX only match's what oh yea 5%". I have evidence to suggest that the Masoretic text has been edited.
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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2011, 12:22:52 AM »

That is hogwash I'm tired of seeing this come up over and over by some christians, yes there were a few different branches that left Judaism but however there was a very strong Orthodox line just like there is today. Just like they try to say the Jews changed things after christians but with the DSS find showing that the Jewish texts match 95% were as the LXX only match's what oh yea 5% nothing was changed in Judaism on the texts and major points on faith.
Emphasis mine.

I would call adherence to the Babylonian Talmud a pretty significant change. It has completely revolutionized the way Jews interpret Sacred Scripture.

Where's the priesthood?

Also, could you provide me with a source that supports the idea that "Jewish texts match 95% were as the LXX only match's what oh yea 5%". I have evidence to suggest that the Masoretic text has been edited.

Talmud is nothing more than taking oral tradition an writing it down such as how one is to dress upon getting out of bed did not change the texts of the bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint theres a quick link to the 5% deal
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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2011, 12:29:59 AM »

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).
For what its worth, I think the title "monotheism" should be rejected entirely. It fails, in my opinion, at accurately portraying our understanding of God.

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.
I think you should bear in mind that the "Judaism" present during the time of the apostles was quite different than modern-day Judaism (or what people associate with the term). For one, the Jews of Christ's time were somewhat Hellenized (i.e. use of the Septuagint, etc.), so it should not be surprising that certain non-Hebrew concepts were brought into the field. In fact, it was not until the sacking of Jerusalem in 5578 AM (AD 70) that Hellenization was "purged" and true "Judaization" accomplished.
That is hogwash I'm tired of seeing this come up over and over by some christians, yes there were a few different branches that left Judaism but however there was a very strong Orthodox line just like there is today. Just like they try to say the Jews changed things after christians but with the DSS find showing that the Jewish texts match 95% were as the LXX only match's what oh yea 5% nothing was changed in Judaism on the texts and major points on faith.
LOL. A "Jewish Voice" saying "hogwash."

Since the Hebrews translated the LXX, and the Jews used it, don't know what point you are depending on the DDS to prove (especially as you are wrong on the percentage match.  The Nash papyrus, as old or older than the oldest DDS matches the LXX.
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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2011, 01:15:33 AM »

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).
For what its worth, I think the title "monotheism" should be rejected entirely. It fails, in my opinion, at accurately portraying our understanding of God.

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.
I think you should bear in mind that the "Judaism" present during the time of the apostles was quite different than modern-day Judaism (or what people associate with the term). For one, the Jews of Christ's time were somewhat Hellenized (i.e. use of the Septuagint, etc.), so it should not be surprising that certain non-Hebrew concepts were brought into the field. In fact, it was not until the sacking of Jerusalem in 5578 AM (AD 70) that Hellenization was "purged" and true "Judaization" accomplished.
That is hogwash I'm tired of seeing this come up over and over by some christians, yes there were a few different branches that left Judaism but however there was a very strong Orthodox line just like there is today. Just like they try to say the Jews changed things after christians but with the DSS find showing that the Jewish texts match 95% were as the LXX only match's what oh yea 5% nothing was changed in Judaism on the texts and major points on faith.
LOL. A "Jewish Voice" saying "hogwash."

Since the Hebrews translated the LXX, and the Jews used it, don't know what point you are depending on the DDS to prove (especially as you are wrong on the percentage match.  The Nash papyrus, as old or older than the oldest DDS matches the LXX.
DSS are older than the The Nash papyrus. You want proof of the N.T playing with my bible right here

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

 7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

oh yes very good but what does it really say well lets go to Deuteronomy and see
 
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

 12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Notice how Paul plays with my bible Hmmmmmmmmm leaving out the whole part that you may do the law
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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2011, 01:35:07 AM »

A Jew has to give up his strict monotheist (non-trinitarian, very emphasized in some groups of Jews and part of official teaching of Judaism).
Are you saying that there are two types of strict monotheism: trinitarian and non-trinitarian?

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).  

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.


Why does a Jew even need to ask "What is God like?  How many Persons is he?"  he usually asks "How best can I do and obey God's will?" Only the Greeks and all of their philosophy would feel an incessant urge to try to comprehend, He who is Incomprehensible.
That's a Bingo! You grasp this difference well. I hope that God uses this in you to witness to others, that they may know our Father in Heaven and glorify Him.

I seriously doubt God would want to use someone like me.  I barely even deserve the label "Christian", I am a tormented soul.  Please pray for me.
I pray God helps us all, but He did once speak through an ass (Balam's), and on other occasions through other (I'm not sure if that use of the word is allowed here)es.
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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2011, 01:50:26 AM »

There are indeed differences between two types of monotheism.  Non-trinitarian and Trinitarian, there is only one form of strict monotheism non-trinitarian (belief in God without attributing any helpers or partners to him).
For what its worth, I think the title "monotheism" should be rejected entirely. It fails, in my opinion, at accurately portraying our understanding of God.

I've been thinking about it, and I have no idea why a Jewish Christian.. such as the original Patriarch of Jerusalem St. James the brother of Christ (or his successors, until the Hellenism took over)  would ever accept the philosophy out of which the Trinity is based upon, all of this Neoplatonism and Hellenistic concepts.
I think you should bear in mind that the "Judaism" present during the time of the apostles was quite different than modern-day Judaism (or what people associate with the term). For one, the Jews of Christ's time were somewhat Hellenized (i.e. use of the Septuagint, etc.), so it should not be surprising that certain non-Hebrew concepts were brought into the field. In fact, it was not until the sacking of Jerusalem in 5578 AM (AD 70) that Hellenization was "purged" and true "Judaization" accomplished.
That is hogwash I'm tired of seeing this come up over and over by some christians, yes there were a few different branches that left Judaism but however there was a very strong Orthodox line just like there is today. Just like they try to say the Jews changed things after christians but with the DSS find showing that the Jewish texts match 95% were as the LXX only match's what oh yea 5% nothing was changed in Judaism on the texts and major points on faith.
LOL. A "Jewish Voice" saying "hogwash."

Since the Hebrews translated the LXX, and the Jews used it, don't know what point you are depending on the DDS to prove (especially as you are wrong on the percentage match.  The Nash papyrus, as old or older than the oldest DDS matches the LXX.
DSS are older than the The Nash papyrus.
No, much of the DSS are decidedly younger.  None are much older, if at all.

You want proof of the N.T playing with my bible right here
Since your bible postdates the N.T., there was nothing to play with.

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

 7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

oh yes very good but what does it really say well lets go to Deuteronomy and see
 
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

 12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Notice how Paul plays with my bible Hmmmmmmmmm leaving out the whole part that you may do the law

I notice that "law" isn't even mentioned by your bible.

You're welcome to your Masoretic text.  The Protestants can fight you for it.

St. Paul tells what Moses really said, not the reverse.
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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2011, 02:00:47 AM »

lol yeah took what 5000 years for Paul to come along and tells us what it was about Roll Eyes
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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2011, 02:07:25 AM »

And then it took what, another thousand for the Masoretic Text to...
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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2011, 02:08:15 AM »

lol yeah took what 5000 years for Paul to come along and tells us what it was about Roll Eyes
No, it took Christ just 3700 years to come along and tell us what it was all about. St. Paul is just His spokesman.
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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2011, 02:15:24 AM »

And then it took what, another thousand for the Masoretic Text to...
Hebrew was always there where are some of you really getting your info from the crackerjack box
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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2011, 02:55:22 AM »

lol yeah took what 5000 years for Paul to come along and tells us what it was about Roll Eyes
No, it took Christ just 3700 years to come along and tell us what it was all about. St. Paul is just His spokesman.
Are you saying that Christ lived 3700 years after Moses?
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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2011, 03:13:50 AM »

lol yeah took what 5000 years for Paul to come along and tells us what it was about Roll Eyes
No, it took Christ just 3700 years to come along and tell us what it was all about. St. Paul is just His spokesman.
Are you saying that Christ lived 3700 years after Moses?
After Creation?
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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2011, 03:16:02 AM »

lol yeah took what 5000 years for Paul to come along and tells us what it was about Roll Eyes
No, it took Christ just 3700 years to come along and tell us what it was all about. St. Paul is just His spokesman.
Are you saying that Christ lived 3700 years after Moses?
After Creation?
Oh.

Well, I'm out of the convo then.
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« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2011, 04:59:17 AM »

Is Isa a YEC believer?
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« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2011, 06:10:23 AM »

And then it took what, another thousand for the Masoretic Text to...
Hebrew was always there where are some of you really getting your info from the crackerjack box
There was a Hebrew text, but not the Masoretic.  That can even be shown from the Masoretic text:the acrostic of Psalms 9-10 of the Masoretic shows that the original numbering is the Septuagint's.
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« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2011, 06:11:28 AM »

Is Isa a YEC believer?
YEC?
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« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2011, 06:14:39 AM »

Young Earth Creationist.
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« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2011, 06:20:42 AM »

Always wondered if Isa is a compatibilist or incompatibilist
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« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2011, 10:48:32 AM »

Always wondered if Isa is a compatibilist or incompatibilist
I think Isa was just referring to the Jewish calendar, in which it's the year 5772.
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« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2011, 11:06:21 AM »

Always wondered if Isa is a compatibilist or incompatibilist
LOL. Compatibilist (if that is the only two choices; science can be incompatible with Faith, but need not be), but I found evolutionary theory incompatible with science and reason studying evolutionary biology (elementary, though) at the University of Chicago.  That things change over time is a dogmatic proof taught by religion.

and yeah, I only was going by JV's apparent appeal to the Jewish calendar.  Truth be told, it should be just 1300 years or so waiting, as the Penteteuch was only written at the earliest by Moses, at least according to Tradition, both Chrisitian and Jewish (leaving aside pre-existence thoughts of the latter).
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« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2011, 12:25:06 AM »

Isa,

I have a question about the whole authorship of Moses on the Pentetauch. Why would he talk about himself in the 3rd person? It doesn't make sense to me.

Also I agree 100% about the change over time as dogamtic proof taught by religion.

I'm still trying to understand what you mean that science can be incompatible with faith. Are you saying there are things science tells us that is arbitray?

I also don't believe in the change in speciation from a common source, I don't know alot of that doesn't really matter to me either way.
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« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2011, 02:06:07 AM »

There was an interesting answer from author and Rabbi Dr. Jacob Neusner. He said the reason he did not become a Christian was that Christ said He was come to set a man against his father (Mt. 10:35). (I'm paraphrasing.) Neusner said one of the most important beliefs in Judaism was to take care of your family no matter what. He could not get used to the idea of separating from your family even if it was for reasons of faith.

I guess the biggest thing a Jewish person would have to give up to become Christian would be the sense that the Messiah had not come yet, because they are still waiting for him, whereas we believe Christ fulfills that status. Just my thoughts.
BTW Jacob is wrong, what Christ is saying is that you cannot love someone more than God.
Could you please explain what you mean? Thanks.
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« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2011, 03:46:38 AM »

There was an interesting answer from author and Rabbi Dr. Jacob Neusner. He said the reason he did not become a Christian was that Christ said He was come to set a man against his father (Mt. 10:35). (I'm paraphrasing.) Neusner said one of the most important beliefs in Judaism was to take care of your family no matter what. He could not get used to the idea of separating from your family even if it was for reasons of faith.

I guess the biggest thing a Jewish person would have to give up to become Christian would be the sense that the Messiah had not come yet, because they are still waiting for him, whereas we believe Christ fulfills that status. Just my thoughts.
BTW Jacob is wrong, what Christ is saying is that you cannot love someone more than God.
Could you please explain what you mean? Thanks.

In other words put your family above God
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« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2011, 07:46:12 AM »

Isa,

I have a question about the whole authorship of Moses on the Pentetauch. Why would he talk about himself in the 3rd person? It doesn't make sense to me.
I still haven't had the first coffee.

I don't think it is necessary to believe that Moses sat down and wrote from "In the beginning....." to "in the signt of Israel."  But if he did, it wouldn't be hard to explain.  Leaving aside theological interpretations, it could be just convention.  Speaking in the 3rd person is not that unknown, the Ancient Southern Arabian Languages (related to Amharic, Geez etc. in Ethiopia but showing relations with Canaanite) we have no attestation of the 2d and 1st persons, as its writting convensions put everything in the 3d person.  In the Gospel, Christ on occassion speaks in the 3rd person, e.g. "The Son of Man came to save men's lives, not to destroy them."

Also I agree 100% about the change over time as dogamtic proof taught by religion.

I'm still trying to understand what you mean that science can be incompatible with faith. Are you saying there are things science tells us that is arbitray?
Some things God created just so we would go "ooo, that's cool!"

Other things science can do but shouldn't even try, e.g. cloning persons for spare parts (btw, parents have had children the old fashioned way for the same reason, and that's wrong as well).

Some science is just misguided, like phlogiston.

I also don't believe in the change in speciation from a common source, I don't know alot of that doesn't really matter to me either way.
ditto.
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« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2011, 07:50:12 AM »

NVM!
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« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2011, 10:24:15 AM »

PHLOGISTON!
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« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2011, 12:52:35 PM »

Shazaam!
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« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2011, 01:01:19 PM »

aw man and I was so hoping for a really interesting conversation between "Jewish Voice" and "ialmisry"..
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« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2011, 06:25:00 AM »

I still haven't had the first coffee.

I don't think it is necessary to believe that Moses sat down and wrote from "In the beginning....." to "in the signt of Israel."  But if he did, it wouldn't be hard to explain.  Leaving aside theological interpretations, it could be just convention.  Speaking in the 3rd person is not that unknown, the Ancient Southern Arabian Languages (related to Amharic, Geez etc. in Ethiopia but showing relations with Canaanite) we have no attestation of the 2d and 1st persons, as its writting convensions put everything in the 3d person.  In the Gospel, Christ on occassion speaks in the 3rd person, e.g. "The Son of Man came to save men's lives, not to destroy them."
Thanks Isa,

On another note, are you aware of the documentary hypothesis which asserts that there were multiple authors of the Pentetuch?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

I read up on Whybray's refutation which was excellent, basically he says that one author derived from various traditions and didn't really make note of any literary consistency nor kept the same style or language.

Quote
Some things God created just so we would go "ooo, that's cool!"
I would say all of creation is awe inspiring.

But that's the wild eyed romantic talking. Wink

Quote
Other things science can do but shouldn't even try, e.g. cloning persons for spare parts (btw, parents have had children the old fashioned way for the same reason, and that's wrong as well).
Ah cloning, that seems like a can of worms to me.

Quote
Some science is just misguided, like phlogiston.
LOL
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« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2011, 12:41:07 PM »

Why are people afraid someone will clone whole humans? Aren't there lots of people in the world right now?  Huh

I'm hoping they'll come up with synthetic organs for transplants, so this whole creepy thing about harvesting won't happen. They can make artificial heart pumps and artificial limbs, and hopefully they'll keep going that way.
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« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2011, 12:55:32 PM »

Why are people afraid someone will clone whole humans? Aren't there lots of people in the world right now?  Huh

I'm hoping they'll come up with synthetic organs for transplants, so this whole creepy thing about harvesting won't happen. They can make artificial heart pumps and artificial limbs, and hopefully they'll keep going that way.
Eternal life, thanks to technology?
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« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2011, 01:15:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

My two cents:

Many Jews across history have converted.  Countless change their names in their conversions and become locals.  It is in this process that Jewish folks lose their ethnic identity and so many others opt not to convert, because up until relatively modern times conversion implied abandoning Jewish cultural and ethnic identity.  In a lot of European and Western Asian societies, to be  Christian was and is a kind of ethnicity of its own.  So I would say then the folks who decide not to convert, be it two-thousand years ago, during the Middle Ages, or even today, do so for the same kinds of complicated sociocultural and specifically historical reasons why we still have a split between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. We all know that we say many of the same things in different ways and that the things we actually disagree upon can be mutually tolerated, however the complex history of regional politics and culture clash really muddy up the relationship.  We simply have too much mutual baggage in our history.  I think with Jews and the Church, especially in the context of expulsions and pogroms, we just have way to much baggage for Jews to be able to settle their differences.  Perhaps many feel in their heart the reverberating Truth of the Church and of Jesus Christ our Lord, however they would have to counter a lot of history to be able to take that kind of leap.  We then could have a very good understanding of the Jewish perspective, both within and outside the Church, if we view them through our own familiar lenses of the relationship between Eastern and Oriental.

This is what I believe is allegorized in the passages in the Gospel which state

Quote
Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
The Church does not reject family, quite the opposite, family is quite literally Sacramental and therefore sanctified, the marriage and family bond indissoluble.  However, if you are from  a Jewish family and marry into a Christian family, well, there is a lot of mutual conflict there, and most of it historical, regional, local, cultural, political, and rarely actually religious.  

Quote
If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

This is also an encrypted message about conversion in the Jewish era of the Church (which lasted not just through the first, but even up until the sixth century) which speaks about the threat the Church has to Jewish ethnic and cultural identity.  All of life in Jewish society is oriented around Temple/Synagogue just as ours is oriented around our parish or church.  In this Gospel passage, we see that to become a Christian is perceived by the Jewish folks as a threat to their "temple and nation" and this passage was not just in the context specifically of the priestly class, but of Jewish identity in general.  When Jews convert, it is a challenge to those other Jews who don't convert, and ethnic, familial, and cultural bonds and patterns shift towards to the conversion, towards to integration into the new.  Converts all have a similar story, and with Jewish identity, it has simply been harder to integrate both into the Christian identity, because of the historical baggage.  In many respects, political factions of Christians in history have waged outright war with Jews, sometimes mutually, sometimes vindictively, and so Jews rightfully have perceived Christians has a threat.  This is that baggage which is hard for Jews to overcome in order to embrace Conversion, and I would say then that it is truly the Holy Spirit that brings anyone forward.

In the Protestant traditions, there are many popular misinterpretations of Romans 11 which have spurred an almost dangerous Christian Zionism.  These folks are the ultimate Jewish apologists, in that they claim that God has preserved the distinctness of Jewish identity precisely for some kind of miraculous en masse conversion at the Second Coming, and apparently all Jews of all history will be miraculously redeemed by the Grace of their having been ethnically Jewish.  We in the Church know that the covenants with Jews were revoked, and the New Covenant of the Church is the New Israel, and the "Israel of God" which Paul mentioned.  Jews within the Church are still ethnically Jews, if anything they fulfill the covenants all the more by participating in the New Covenant and the Sacramental Life of the Church.  God still knows their history, their family tree, and He sanctifies them all the more by being in the Church, which was precisely sent into the world to save the Jews first, then the Gentiles.  Peter to the Circumcision, Paul to the Uncircumcision, and so Jews must be a part of the Church, not outside.  There is no Grace outside the Church, or rather it surely takes a lot of Grace to find God outside of His Church Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2011, 01:39:10 PM »

Why are people afraid someone will clone whole humans? Aren't there lots of people in the world right now?  Huh

I'm hoping they'll come up with synthetic organs for transplants, so this whole creepy thing about harvesting won't happen. They can make artificial heart pumps and artificial limbs, and hopefully they'll keep going that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_(2005_film)
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