Author Topic: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back  (Read 3149 times)

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Offline Robb

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Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« on: October 02, 2011, 05:24:13 PM »
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/news/detail/articolo/7996/


09/14/2011
Lefebvrists: there is no turning back

The answer was swift and on the eve of the important meeting that will take place tomorrow in Rome between the Lefebvrian superior, Monsignor Bernard Fellay, and the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the traditionalist leader attacked the Vatican on the new interreligious meeting to be held in Assisi on October 27, 25 years after the first historic 1986 event...
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert

Offline Scotty

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 08:43:12 PM »
I'm going to have to side with the Bishop Fellay on this one...

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2011, 08:28:46 AM »
I'm going to have to side with the Bishop Fellay on this one...

Are you sure?

The Lefebvbrian also once again accused Jews of killing Jesus Christ: “How could God be pleased with the prayers of Jews loyal to their fathers who have crucified His Son and deny the Trinitarian God?”.

....the peace for which the Pope will pray in Assisi will be “a Masonic peace sealed by freedom of conscience” and the meeting will be an “ugly humiliation of the Church”: the Pope, who will chair such meeting “will not be the head of the Catholic Church...."
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 08:32:13 AM by Jetavan »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2011, 08:52:32 AM »
The Lefebvbrian also once again accused Jews of killing Jesus Christ: “How could God be pleased with the prayers of Jews loyal to their fathers who have crucified His Son and deny the Trinitarian God?”.

Is there something wrong with this statement? While contemporary adherents of Judaism are not personally guilty for crucifixion of Christ for me it seems that they adhere to a religion which caused the death of Christ.

Of course this do not apply to those Jews who do not adhere to Judaism.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2011, 09:07:43 AM »
The Lefebvbrian also once again accused Jews of killing Jesus Christ: “How could God be pleased with the prayers of Jews loyal to their fathers who have crucified His Son and deny the Trinitarian God?”.

Is there something wrong with this statement? While contemporary adherents of Judaism are not personally guilty for crucifixion of Christ for me it seems that they adhere to a religion which caused the death of Christ.
Judaism caused the death of Christ?

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2011, 09:10:16 AM »
Judaism caused the death of Christ?

In a way, yes. IIRC, Jesus was crucified because Judaists of his time thought He was guilty of blasphemy.

Of cource this shouldn't cause any kind of antisemitism of prejudice since contemporary Jews are not guilty of deicide. However this is a point that needs to be considered when talking about inter-religious dialogue between Christians and Jews.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 09:19:10 AM by Alpo »
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2011, 09:51:13 AM »
Judaism caused the death of Christ?

In a way, yes. IIRC, Jesus was crucified because Judaists of his time thought He was guilty of blasphemy.
And by "Judaists" you  mean "Jews"?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2011, 11:02:53 AM »
Judaism caused the death of Christ?

In a way, yes. IIRC, Jesus was crucified because Judaists of his time thought He was guilty of blasphemy.
And by "Judaists" you  mean "Jews"?

By "Judaist" I mean a person who adheres to Judaism as a religion regardless of one's ethnic background. By "Jew" I mean an ethnic concept i.e. a person who has been born into a Jewish family line regardless of family's religious views. For example one can be a Jew since he/she has been born into a Jewish family line without being a Judaist since he/she is a Buddhist by his/her religious views.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 11:18:52 AM by Alpo »
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 11:24:08 AM »
Judaism caused the death of Christ?

In a way, yes. IIRC, Jesus was crucified because Judaists of his time thought He was guilty of blasphemy.

I thought that the gospels referred to some of the Temple authorities in that way, not all Judaists.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 11:39:02 AM »
Judaism caused the death of Christ?

In a way, yes. IIRC, Jesus was crucified because Judaists of his time thought He was guilty of blasphemy.

I thought that the gospels referred to some of the Temple authorities in that way, not all Judaists.

Rejection of Jesus is a central tenet of Judaism. They all adhere to Temple authorities' accusations.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 11:43:15 AM by Alpo »
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Offline Robb

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2011, 06:47:38 PM »
The SSPX and their followers are very backwards minded and their view COULD be dangerous to the peace and security of the modern world and its citizens.  If the SSPX views ever became dominant again in the mainstream Vatican/RCC then we could see a form of Catholicism similarity's o Wahhabi's Islam emerge on the scene.  Believe me that the Lefebrist crowd has no problem supporting such things as oppressive and totalitarian Catholic monarchist/fascist states which would work to suppress all other forms of religion and free thought ( They openly support such ideas in their writtings and sermons).  To the Pius X people, the ideal society in which to live would be that of 13Th century Western Europe (Or a more recent variant would be 19Th and early 20Th century Quebec).  

Although I am RC, I surely don't want to live in such a society and defiantly would struggle against anyone or thing which would try to force such a state down my throat.  This is one of my main reasons for being so against the SSPX and their reconciliation with the Vatican (Which they would no doubt try to work and infiltrate with their own people if given the chance to).  Is there not so much suffering and hatred amongst the worlds religions and cultures that has grown organicallyalready without having to artificially make more of it?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 06:47:57 PM by Robb »
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2011, 08:43:02 PM »
I'm going to have to side with the Bishop Fellay on this one...

Are you sure?

The Lefebvbrian also once again accused Jews of killing Jesus Christ: “How could God be pleased with the prayers of Jews loyal to their fathers who have crucified His Son and deny the Trinitarian God?”.

....the peace for which the Pope will pray in Assisi will be “a Masonic peace sealed by freedom of conscience” and the meeting will be an “ugly humiliation of the Church”: the Pope, who will chair such meeting “will not be the head of the Catholic Church...."

I was implying I agree the meeting at Assisi is a bad idea and should not be done.  I did not mean I agree with every word of Bishop Fellay.

Offline Scotty

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2011, 08:49:46 PM »
The SSPX and their followers are very backwards minded and their view COULD be dangerous to the peace and security of the modern world and its citizens.  If the SSPX views ever became dominant again in the mainstream Vatican/RCC then we could see a form of Catholicism similarity's o Wahhabi's Islam emerge on the scene.  Believe me that the Lefebrist crowd has no problem supporting such things as oppressive and totalitarian Catholic monarchist/fascist states which would work to suppress all other forms of religion and free thought ( They openly support such ideas in their writtings and sermons).  To the Pius X people, the ideal society in which to live would be that of 13Th century Western Europe (Or a more recent variant would be 19Th and early 20Th century Quebec).  

Although I am RC, I surely don't want to live in such a society and defiantly would struggle against anyone or thing which would try to force such a state down my throat.  This is one of my main reasons for being so against the SSPX and their reconciliation with the Vatican (Which they would no doubt try to work and infiltrate with their own people if given the chance to).  Is there not so much suffering and hatred amongst the worlds religions and cultures that has grown organicallyalready without having to artificially make more of it?

A rant I sense.  Do you really think the clergy in the SSPX are that terrible?  Have you even heard one sermon by an SSPX priest?  Which Pius X people are you referring to?  These? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2gYRNUYnO0

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2011, 09:38:00 PM »
The SSPX and their followers are very backwards minded and their view COULD be dangerous to the peace and security of the modern world and its citizens.  If the SSPX views ever became dominant again in the mainstream Vatican/RCC then we could see a form of Catholicism similarity's o Wahhabi's Islam emerge on the scene.  Believe me that the Lefebrist crowd has no problem supporting such things as oppressive and totalitarian Catholic monarchist/fascist states which would work to suppress all other forms of religion and free thought ( They openly support such ideas in their writtings and sermons).  To the Pius X people, the ideal society in which to live would be that of 13Th century Western Europe (Or a more recent variant would be 19Th and early 20Th century Quebec).  

Although I am RC, I surely don't want to live in such a society and defiantly would struggle against anyone or thing which would try to force such a state down my throat.  This is one of my main reasons for being so against the SSPX and their reconciliation with the Vatican (Which they would no doubt try to work and infiltrate with their own people if given the chance to).  Is there not so much suffering and hatred amongst the worlds religions and cultures that has grown organicallyalready without having to artificially make more of it?

SSPX Catholicism is equivalent to Wahhabism? Wow, talk about false equivalence. :P

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2011, 12:21:35 PM »
The SSPX and their followers are very backwards minded and their view COULD be dangerous to the peace and security of the modern world and its citizens.  If the SSPX views ever became dominant again in the mainstream Vatican/RCC then we could see a form of Catholicism similarity's o Wahhabi's Islam emerge on the scene.  Believe me that the Lefebrist crowd has no problem supporting such things as oppressive and totalitarian Catholic monarchist/fascist states which would work to suppress all other forms of religion and free thought ( They openly support such ideas in their writtings and sermons).
Why should we believe you?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 12:21:48 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2011, 01:13:35 PM »
What a load of nonsense. I suppose you'll have to find some other religion, Robb, if the Holy See works out a canonical structure for those SSPX "Wahhabists" you despise so much. Either you or the SSPX, eh?

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2011, 01:55:48 PM »
The Lefebvbrian also once again accused Jews of killing Jesus Christ: “How could God be pleased with the prayers of Jews loyal to their fathers who have crucified His Son and deny the Trinitarian God?”.

Is there something wrong with this statement? While contemporary adherents of Judaism are not personally guilty for crucifixion of Christ for me it seems that they adhere to a religion which caused the death of Christ.

Of course this do not apply to those Jews who do not adhere to Judaism.

Really???

Where did the concept of a Christ come from in the first place? Buddhism?

Which Temple did Jesus pray in?

Which religion informed all the Apostles?

etc.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Ad Orientem

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2011, 03:01:42 PM »
The SSPX and their followers are very backwards minded and their view COULD be dangerous to the peace and security of the modern world and its citizens.  If the SSPX views ever became dominant again in the mainstream Vatican/RCC then we could see a form of Catholicism similarity's o Wahhabi's Islam emerge on the scene.  Believe me that the Lefebrist crowd has no problem supporting such things as oppressive and totalitarian Catholic monarchist/fascist states which would work to suppress all other forms of religion and free thought ( They openly support such ideas in their writtings and sermons).
Why should we believe you?
You can take my word for it.  I use to be one of them... mea culpa mea culpa...
Not saying everyone in the SSPX is a nut job.  But A LOT of them are.  The society is deeply reactionary in many respects and really wants to see a sort of medieval social order restored.  It is also riddled with anti-semites.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2011, 04:17:35 PM »
The SSPX and their followers are very backwards minded and their view COULD be dangerous to the peace and security of the modern world and its citizens.  If the SSPX views ever became dominant again in the mainstream Vatican/RCC then we could see a form of Catholicism similarity's o Wahhabi's Islam emerge on the scene.  Believe me that the Lefebrist crowd has no problem supporting such things as oppressive and totalitarian Catholic monarchist/fascist states which would work to suppress all other forms of religion and free thought ( They openly support such ideas in their writtings and sermons).
Why should we believe you?
You can take my word for it.  I use to be one of them....
Wow. :o
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2011, 05:33:53 PM »
Well even if the SSPX are the wannabe Vatican Taliban, I reckon the likelihood of them taking over the whole RCC, conquering Europe and driving it back to the feudal period is about as great as that of the True Orthodox singlehandedly restoring the Orthodox Empire. ;)

Offline Ad Orientem

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2011, 05:39:40 PM »
Well even if the SSPX are the wannabe Vatican Taliban, I reckon the likelihood of them taking over the whole RCC, conquering Europe and driving it back to the feudal period is about as great as that of the True Orthodox singlehandedly restoring the Orthodox Empire. ;)
I agree.

Offline Robb

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2011, 06:09:17 PM »
Well even if the SSPX are the wannabe Vatican Taliban, I reckon the likelihood of them taking over the whole RCC, conquering Europe and driving it back to the feudal period is about as great as that of the True Orthodox singlehandedly restoring the Orthodox Empire. ;)
I agree.

I wasn't saying that the would either immediately take over the Vatican and then Europe, the world, etc.. However they could start infiltrating high positions of authority within the RCC over a period of time (Just like the liberals did) And then that could seriously start doing damage to the current RC structure and concepts like ecumenism and religious liberty. 
I was, at one time very into traditional Catholics and used to read most of their publications all the way from the Remnant and Tan books to the SSPX and Angelus press literature.  I'm pretty familiar with the Trad Catholic movement and its various factions as well as the core beliefs of of the various groups within it.  The SSPX makes no secret that they want to return to a society were the Church controlled everything and regulated, coerced everyones lives all the item.  Whether this would be structured as something Medevil or more akin to 19Th century Quebec or the Papal States is anybodies guess (But this is what the SSPX wants and I would guess that they wouldn't care what system was created to implement it just as long as it was eventually implemented).
I also used to believe that, despite all their literature and propaganda, most trads were just normal people who held somewhat eccentric ideas, but still worshiped at the beautiful and mystical Latin Mass.  Unfortunately as I was to find out from personal experience, these people are usually anything but normal, mild and mannered individuals.  Most of them are extremely goofy in their opinions and they try to drag you along with them t, even if your just interested in the liturgical aspects of their movement, they are much more concerned about making you a "true believer" and not just a casual Latin Mass goer.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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Offline Byron

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2011, 02:40:50 AM »
Well even if the SSPX are the wannabe Vatican Taliban, I reckon the likelihood of them taking over the whole RCC, conquering Europe and driving it back to the feudal period is about as great as that of the True Orthodox singlehandedly restoring the Orthodox Empire. ;)
I agree.

I wasn't saying that the would either immediately take over the Vatican and then Europe, the world, etc.. However they could start infiltrating high positions of authority within the RCC over a period of time (Just like the liberals did) And then that could seriously start doing damage to the current RC structure and concepts like ecumenism and religious liberty. 
I was, at one time very into traditional Catholics and used to read most of their publications all the way from the Remnant and Tan books to the SSPX and Angelus press literature.  I'm pretty familiar with the Trad Catholic movement and its various factions as well as the core beliefs of of the various groups within it.  The SSPX makes no secret that they want to return to a society were the Church controlled everything and regulated, coerced everyones lives all the item.  Whether this would be structured as something Medevil or more akin to 19Th century Quebec or the Papal States is anybodies guess (But this is what the SSPX wants and I would guess that they wouldn't care what system was created to implement it just as long as it was eventually implemented).
I also used to believe that, despite all their literature and propaganda, most trads were just normal people who held somewhat eccentric ideas, but still worshiped at the beautiful and mystical Latin Mass.  Unfortunately as I was to find out from personal experience, these people are usually anything but normal, mild and mannered individuals.  Most of them are extremely goofy in their opinions and they try to drag you along with them t, even if your just interested in the liturgical aspects of their movement, they are much more concerned about making you a "true believer" and not just a casual Latin Mass goer.

If they did somehow get into power, what would be the repercussions for Orthodoxy? I imagine they would be pretty hostile.
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Offline Ad Orientem

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2011, 03:11:55 AM »
Quote
If they did somehow get into power, what would be the repercussions for Orthodoxy? I imagine they would be pretty hostile.
Most Trad Catholics admire Orthodoxy for its liturgy and its resistance to modernism.  But the vast majority also regard us as obstinately schismatic if not heretical (which from an RCC perspective is probably a pretty fair assessment though also ironic given their own relationship with Rome).  Until we kneel and kiss the Pope's ring though they don't really have a lot of use for us.  The problem as I often attempt to explain to my traddie friends is not the question of modernism.  We Orthodox fully agree with their opposition to it.  We just date the problem a bit differently.  They see modernism becoming a serious problem in Rome around the middle of the last century.  We view the problem arriving in Rome about a thousand years earlier.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2011, 06:41:51 PM »
That's what I absolutely do not understand about RCs (and I was one): If the Roman Pope and his people are serious about this "Papal Infallibility" stuff, and serious about healing the Great Schism, then why is it that the most traditional among them have it in their heads that if they could just turn the clock back to about 1950 everything would be fine? I mean, I know if I had magical infallibility powers and could set the tone for an entire church communion, I'd want to be as serious as a heart attack about this reunion business, which involves looking at things as they were when we were ACTUALLY UNITED, not looking about a thousand years later and saying "Yeah, that's the ticket; everybody get on board with that". If you're going to be infallible, at least get some good use out of it, right? Otherwise it's like being able to time travel and using your power to go to the movies for a nickel, rather than killing Hitler or something.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2011, 10:13:06 PM »
That's what I absolutely do not understand about RCs (and I was one): If the Roman Pope and his people are serious about this "Papal Infallibility" stuff, and serious about healing the Great Schism, then why is it that the most traditional among them have it in their heads that if they could just turn the clock back to about 1950 everything would be fine? I mean, I know if I had magical infallibility powers and could set the tone for an entire church communion, I'd want to be as serious as a heart attack about this reunion business, which involves looking at things as they were when we were ACTUALLY UNITED, not looking about a thousand years later and saying "Yeah, that's the ticket; everybody get on board with that". If you're going to be infallible, at least get some good use out of it, right? Otherwise it's like being able to time travel and using your power to go to the movies for a nickel, rather than killing Hitler or something.
Because the SSPX are not "the Roman Pope and his people." The traditionalist groups who oppose the Second Vatican Council are in error.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2011, 09:27:35 AM »
Here's a quote from SSPX's American website:

Quote from: SSPX.org
Could it also be these Catholics desire to see resurrected public and visible recognition of the temporal power that the Pope possesses as Christ’s Vicar over civil potentates? In fact, what faithful Catholic doesn’t relish the stories of when a Pope would flex his supreme authority over the heads of wayward princes—remember Emperor Henry IV at Canossa?!

Of course, this type of truly Catholic thinking—nothing less than practice of the Social Reign of Christ the King—is anathema to the Liberal mind which demands in the name of “religious liberty” the separation of Church and State, and for the sake of “humility”, the degradation of the Supreme Pontiff by placing him on equal footing with the College of Bishops.

Now this is downright scary.  :o ???
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2011, 12:35:44 PM »
Notice I did not mention the SSPX. I don't think they're the only option for Catholic traditionalists. I have heard similar opinions about how the RC should return to its pre-Vatican II understandings of the faith from people who are perfectly obedient within the post-VII church. It is a matter of degree, it seems. SSPX seem extreme because they phrase their arguments in extreme terms and do not compromise, but similar arguments have circulated among obedient Catholics, too.

That's what I absolutely do not understand about RCs (and I was one): If the Roman Pope and his people are serious about this "Papal Infallibility" stuff, and serious about healing the Great Schism, then why is it that the most traditional among them have it in their heads that if they could just turn the clock back to about 1950 everything would be fine? I mean, I know if I had magical infallibility powers and could set the tone for an entire church communion, I'd want to be as serious as a heart attack about this reunion business, which involves looking at things as they were when we were ACTUALLY UNITED, not looking about a thousand years later and saying "Yeah, that's the ticket; everybody get on board with that". If you're going to be infallible, at least get some good use out of it, right? Otherwise it's like being able to time travel and using your power to go to the movies for a nickel, rather than killing Hitler or something.
Because the SSPX are not "the Roman Pope and his people." The traditionalist groups who oppose the Second Vatican Council are in error.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2011, 02:27:58 PM »
Here's a quote from SSPX's American website:

Quote from: SSPX.org
Could it also be these Catholics desire to see resurrected public and visible recognition of the temporal power that the Pope possesses as Christ’s Vicar over civil potentates? In fact, what faithful Catholic doesn’t relish the stories of when a Pope would flex his supreme authority over the heads of wayward princes—remember Emperor Henry IV at Canossa?!

Of course, this type of truly Catholic thinking—nothing less than practice of the Social Reign of Christ the King—is anathema to the Liberal mind which demands in the name of “religious liberty” the separation of Church and State, and for the sake of “humility”, the degradation of the Supreme Pontiff by placing him on equal footing with the College of Bishops.

Now this is downright scary.  :o ???
They're just kidding, joshing around. ::)
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Re: Lefebvrists: there is no turning back
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2011, 08:47:31 PM »
Ughhh. I am definitely not a fan of these "prayer meetings". I think that they are a scandal. <sigh>
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.