Author Topic: Statues?  (Read 5453 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2013, 08:55:34 AM »
Statues were used and in some very rare places are still used in the Eastern Church. I recently saw some photos of them somewhere on facebook... if I can find them again I will post.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2013, 09:08:15 AM »
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 09:11:48 AM by Arachne »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2013, 09:43:25 AM »
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2013, 10:03:14 AM »
Bas-reliefs have always been acceptable in Orthodoxy, fully three-dimensional statues have not.

How about 3-dimensional crosses?

Offline hecma925

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2013, 10:11:16 AM »
Bas-reliefs have always been acceptable in Orthodoxy, fully three-dimensional statues have not.

How about 3-dimensional crosses?

Those are venerated all the time.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2013, 10:12:36 AM »
Bas-reliefs have always been acceptable in Orthodoxy, fully three-dimensional statues have not.

How about 3-dimensional crosses?

Those are venerated all the time.

So what makes a 3-dimensional cross different from a 3-dimensional statue?

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2013, 10:23:59 AM »
Two very interesting articles on the issue, complete with bits of photographic evidence:

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2013/02/russian-statues-some-answers-about.html#.Unjwb1NKbLk

http://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/can-statuary-act-as-icon/
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2013, 11:21:06 PM »
Our Lady of Einsiedeln and Our Lady of Walsingham are two pre-schism statues.

The visions at Walsingham only started in the 1060s, and if I understand correctly the current image is much later, though it possibly depends in the end on a medieval prototype. From what I understand Einsiedeln's current image dates from the 1400s.


There was a statue (or some kind of image) or Our Lady of Einsiedeln from the time of St. Meinrad the Hermit-Martyr in the 10th century.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2013, 11:22:02 PM »
We celebrate Our Lady of Walsingham as a fest (of which issues I have concerning this I will not discuss in this thread) but I have never seen a statue in a Western Rite Church.

I was always told that Orthodox did not use 3 dimentional statues....hmmmm.

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Offline Keble

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2013, 12:47:30 AM »
Our Lady of Einsiedeln and Our Lady of Walsingham are two pre-schism statues.

The visions at Walsingham only started in the 1060s, and if I understand correctly the current image is much later, though it possibly depends in the end on a medieval prototype. From what I understand Einsiedeln's current image dates from the 1400s.


There was a statue (or some kind of image) or Our Lady of Einsiedeln from the time of St. Meinrad the Hermit-Martyr in the 10th century.

There seems to be some degree of unclarity about this. Choose one of the following theories: (a) the current image is the old 10th century image; (b) the current image replaced the older image in the 1400s; or (c) there never was an older image.

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2013, 07:56:19 AM »
Bas-reliefs have always been acceptable in Orthodoxy, fully three-dimensional statues have not.

How about 3-dimensional crosses?

Those are venerated all the time.

So what makes a 3-dimensional cross different from a 3-dimensional statue?
]
A good question I don't have an answer for.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2013, 08:10:57 AM »
Bas-reliefs have always been acceptable in Orthodoxy, fully three-dimensional statues have not.

How about 3-dimensional crosses?

Those are venerated all the time.

So what makes a 3-dimensional cross different from a 3-dimensional statue?
]
A good question I don't have an answer for.

The norm in Orthodoxy up until about the 18th century for the large cross brought out on Holy Thursday evening for veneration was that the figure of Christ on the cross was flat, as it would be in an icon of the Crucifixion, or, in the case of metal processional crosses, in bas-relief. For pectoral crosses worn by clergy, the figure of Christ was engraved onto the cross, or rendered in bas-relief.

A fully-three-dimensional corpus is, like statues, an import from other traditions, and one which was absent for some 1700 years.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2013, 08:22:41 AM »
Bas-reliefs have always been acceptable in Orthodoxy, fully three-dimensional statues have not.

How about 3-dimensional crosses?

Those are venerated all the time.

So what makes a 3-dimensional cross different from a 3-dimensional statue?
]
A good question I don't have an answer for.

The norm in Orthodoxy up until about the 18th century for the large cross brought out on Holy Thursday evening for veneration was that the figure of Christ on the cross was flat, as it would be in an icon of the Crucifixion, or, in the case of metal processional crosses, in bas-relief. For pectoral crosses worn by clergy, the figure of Christ was engraved onto the cross, or rendered in bas-relief.

A fully-three-dimensional corpus is, like statues, an import from other traditions, and one which was absent for some 1700 years.

But the Cross itself is still a fully 3-dimensional object that we venerate.

Offline LBK

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2013, 08:33:52 AM »
Bas-reliefs have always been acceptable in Orthodoxy, fully three-dimensional statues have not.

How about 3-dimensional crosses?

Those are venerated all the time.

So what makes a 3-dimensional cross different from a 3-dimensional statue?
]
A good question I don't have an answer for.

The norm in Orthodoxy up until about the 18th century for the large cross brought out on Holy Thursday evening for veneration was that the figure of Christ on the cross was flat, as it would be in an icon of the Crucifixion, or, in the case of metal processional crosses, in bas-relief. For pectoral crosses worn by clergy, the figure of Christ was engraved onto the cross, or rendered in bas-relief.

A fully-three-dimensional corpus is, like statues, an import from other traditions, and one which was absent for some 1700 years.

But the Cross itself is still a fully 3-dimensional object that we venerate.

... in the same way we venerate holy relics and holy objects such as Gospel books (which are either embossed with bas-relief icons, or are inlaid with painted or enamel icons), chalices, etc.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2013, 09:53:04 AM »
Bas-reliefs have always been acceptable in Orthodoxy, fully three-dimensional statues have not.

How about 3-dimensional crosses?

Those are venerated all the time.

So what makes a 3-dimensional cross different from a 3-dimensional statue?
]
A good question I don't have an answer for.

The norm in Orthodoxy up until about the 18th century for the large cross brought out on Holy Thursday evening for veneration was that the figure of Christ on the cross was flat, as it would be in an icon of the Crucifixion, or, in the case of metal processional crosses, in bas-relief. For pectoral crosses worn by clergy, the figure of Christ was engraved onto the cross, or rendered in bas-relief.

A fully-three-dimensional corpus is, like statues, an import from other traditions, and one which was absent for some 1700 years.

But the Cross itself is still a fully 3-dimensional object that we venerate.

... in the same way we venerate holy relics and holy objects such as Gospel books (which are either embossed with bas-relief icons, or are inlaid with painted or enamel icons), chalices, etc.

So what's the difference between those holy objects and statues?

Offline augustin717

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Re: Statues?
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2013, 12:15:45 PM »
this abundantly shows that parochial mind of some byzantines. why  does one need to get so defensive and construct elaborate theories/theologies of why it's ok to prostrate before a painting but not ok to pray before a statue? ok, one gets it, it's not part of the byzantine tradition, but the byzantine  tradition doesn't exhaust christianity. this sort of byzantinism cannot, indeed, live and exist without rome. although i doubt they pay much attention.