OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 09:49:57 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Ark of the Covenant  (Read 3087 times) Average Rating: 1
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« on: October 15, 2011, 10:04:03 PM »

This is a real question, I don't want anyone thinking that I am just trolling or something with this question.

What are the reasons that the Ethiopian church refuses to allow the faithful to venerate what they say is the Ark of the Covenant.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 14,087


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2011, 10:10:22 PM »

This is a guess on my part. They may be afraid of theft attempts or the church becoming so overcrowded with visitors, it couldn't be used for services anymore. Someone may even ask for it to be given to a museum. Whereas this way, if they keep it discreet, it can remain in the holiness it deserves. Just some thoughts.  Smiley
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,732


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2011, 10:15:16 PM »

Because it's very holy.  It's not for tourists.
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2011, 04:03:29 PM »

It's not for tourists.

Or the faithful, or pretty much anyone, apparently.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2011, 04:07:18 PM »

Why should it be?

The Ark of the Covenant was only ever seen once a year at the Day of Atonement by the High Priest. It is only in modern times that everyone seems to think that everyone should get to see and do everything.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2011, 04:10:21 PM »

Why should it be?

The Ark of the Covenant was only ever seen once a year at the Day of Atonement by the High Priest. It is only in modern times that everyone seems to think that everyone should get to see and do everything.

I'm pretty sure everyone saw it at times, like when they were carrying it around the desert and such. Just ask Uzzah.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2011, 04:28:48 PM »

When it was in the Temple it wasn't carried around at all.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
PrincessMommy
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 734


OCA


« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2011, 04:35:51 PM »

just another guess on my part... technically it's Jewish property.  If they started trotting it out I think the nation of Israel may want to get involved.  Secondly: they are surrounded by Muslims.  Perhaps they'd just rather stay out of the lime-light to avoid any issues with them.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2011, 04:40:12 PM »

When it was in the Temple it wasn't carried around at all.

Ok, fair enough, the Jews let it collect dust at some point, and so do the Ethiopians now.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2011, 05:50:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This is a real question, I don't want anyone thinking that I am just trolling or something with this question.

What are the reasons that the Ethiopian church refuses to allow the faithful to venerate what they say is the Ark of the Covenant.

Do you mean the actual Ark of the Covenant which Moses built or the Tabot (altar slabs) in each and ever parish which we venerate as the Ark?

In regards to the actual Ark, we keep it on the down low for the same reasons it was kept on the down low during the Israelite times, simply because the Ark is actually dangerous.  It is said that at different times in the past the actual Ark has been brought out for our tabot processions which we do seasonally with our Tabotat (altar slabs of each Church) but honestly I don't buy it, I think replicas have always been used and the actual Ark has always been properly stored out of sight.  After all, it is potentially dangerous for two reasons.

A) The complexities of Ethiopian politics make it a dangerous political weapon, just as many folks have abused the Person of the Emperor for their own political gains it is feared that some folks may attempt to use the Ark for similar purposes.  Now I use the word attempt because we know that the Ark does and goes where God pleases, not the decisions of men, so in this instance, the Church keeps the Ark hidden precisely to protect the power-hungry and greedy men who may try to abuse the Ark and get hurt in the process

B) To protect the people at large, remember the Ark has the strict Levitical rules regarding ritual purity and "cleanness" attached, so folks who are ritually unclean, perhaps even to their own knowledge, risk their lives and souls in potentially nearing the Ark in a state of uncleanness.  Since in the Church we do not legalistically follow the Levitical codes, we must protect the people from this inherent risk of themselves.  If we were to have frequent processions and parades with the actual Ark, this could be reckless and dangerous for the people.  In the days of Israel, the people were expected to follow the Law, and if they broke the Law and were made unclean, it was on their own fault and so they were responsible for themselves in regards to contact near the Ark, whereas in Christianity we do not hold people to the Law, and so we would be quite reckless to expose people to the Ark directly when we have not prepared them safely in advance.

In regards to the Tabot, each and ever parish has one, it is consecrated by a Bishop, and no Divine Liturgy can be celebrated aside from the consecrating presence of the Tabot.  When we have our seasonal processions, we treat each Tabot as if it were the Ark, with similar reverence.  The Priests carry the Tabot veiled (to protect the people) in procession as the people parade in hymn and prayer around the Church building, but none of us every think to touch or even see directly the Tabot.  It is sort of like the Ark of the Covenant is God's cellular phone network, and each Tabot is the individual parish's cell phone connected to the network.

Now there are surely some who say that the Ark is merely a myth in Ethiopia, however consider this, Ethiopia is the only nation to consistently claim possession of the Ark of the Covenant for well over the past 1000 years, and this continuity says something about the potential authenticity of the claims.  Are there honestly any others nations who have made such a consistent claim?


stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2011, 05:53:39 PM »

That seems an awful waste of something that might actually bless a lot of people if they saw it, just to let it gather dust hidden away, even a once a year outing for church members only would be something which could be kept very low key.

Quote
In regards to the Tabot, each and ever parish has one, it is consecrated by a Bishop, and no Divine Liturgy can be celebrated aside from the consecrating presence of the Tabot.  When we have our seasonal processions, we treat each Tabot as if it were the Ark, with similar reverence.  The Priests carry the Tabot veiled (to protect the people) in procession as the people parade in hymn and prayer around the Church building, but none of us every think to touch or even see directly the Tabot.  It is sort of like the Ark of the Covenant is God's cellular phone network, and each Tabot is the individual parish's cell phone connected to the network.

Does the "dangerous" aspect of the original ark transfer to copies made as well?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 06:00:47 PM by FountainPen » Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2011, 05:59:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That seems an awful waste of something that might actually bless a lot of people if they saw it, just to let it gather dust hidden away, even a once a year outing for church members only would be something which could be kept very low key.

That assumes that the Priests themselves do not routinely perform services with the Ark.  Also remember further that only Levites can physically touch or handle the Ark, so if we in Ethiopia have the Ark, we must also have Levitical priests who take care of her.  Not just any priest or person can handle the Ark, only Levites and only those who are ritually pure, so these are the main logistical reasons why we keep the Ark hidden, but not necessarily moth balled Smiley

Again, the Ark is potentially more dangerous for people than a blessing, which is why she was also not paraded often in Israelite times.  Just having the Ark in Ethiopia brings about blessings enough, the people are blessed enough to have her in their vicinity.  The Ark is powerful, she doesn't necessarily need human contact to perform her miraculous works of the Holy Spirit, and so we simply don't need to parade her around, she is just as powerful hidden away as she would be publicly,  and we all know she is there anyways so we don't need to see it in parade to feel her blessings.

ps..I really like this thread.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 06:00:13 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2011, 07:04:54 PM »

ps..I really like this thread.

I do too! Thanks for the explaination.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2011, 08:10:22 PM »

So, the Ark is not for tourists, but the Eucharist is?  I presume that the Ethiopians believe that the wine and bread are transformed into the Blood and Body of Christ, Lord and God.  If that is the case (and correct me if it is not), then why would they ever think the Ark of the Covenant - which has been fulfilled in Mary - is too precious a thing to let the faithful ever have anything to do with, but the Eucharist is not?

I genuinely do not understand that.  Is not the Eucharist infinitely more valuable than the Ark of the Covenant?  And Fr. Peter, if the argument is that the Jews rarely brought it out, that implies that they DID bring it out on occasion.  If the Ethiopians are trying to mimic the Jews (which is the suggestion when you use Jewish practice to justify Ethiopian practice), then why do they never bring it out?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Ruprecht
Formerly Subdeacon Bob.C
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Church of  N.A.; New England Diocese
Posts: 44



« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 09:00:28 PM »

Brother HabteSalassie-
   In the recent past there was a History Channel special about a search for the Ark.  Now I am the first to say that the H/C is about as trustworthy as Wikipedia (!!!) when quoted for facts, but the program did have a fair amount of evidence for the location of the Ark.
    Please do not take this as an insult or such, but is there any independent proof or evidence to the actual existence of the Ark? Is the location in St. Mary of Zion Church a matter of church tradition, or has it been shown to the public or at least to members of the church hierarchy?   A quick Google search brings up 2.26 million references to the Ark, and among the first few pages, several claims to have found the Ark.  I don't mean to make this a point of contention or argument; please forgive my total ignorance on this matter.  Any help is greatly appreciated!   God bless.
Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,732


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2011, 09:05:40 PM »

So, the Ark is not for tourists, but the Eucharist is? 

No.

Quote
I presume that the Ethiopians believe that the wine and bread are transformed into the Blood and Body of Christ, Lord and God.  If that is the case (and correct me if it is not), then why would they ever think the Ark of the Covenant - which has been fulfilled in Mary - is too precious a thing to let the faithful ever have anything to do with, but the Eucharist is not?

I genuinely do not understand that.  Is not the Eucharist infinitely more valuable than the Ark of the Covenant? 

Yes it is, which is why it is such a remarkable act of mercy on God's part that He allows us to partake.  That is why people dropped dead in St. Paul's day when they partook unworthily.

But just because God allows us to partake of the Eucharist, that does not mean we should have access to all holy things.  For example, the Eucharist is more holy than the chalice holding it, but only a priest is allowed to touch the chalice.

It may not make sense for you, but it may help if you keep in mind that the Ethiopians treat the Ark in the way they do with the intent of glorifying God.

Logged

Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: The Church of Alexandria
Posts: 5,042


Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2011, 09:09:16 PM »

--Subscribed--
Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

I am currently not an active poster on the forum. Please forgive any offense I might have caused in the past. Thank you.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2011, 11:09:43 PM »

greetings in that divine and most precious name of our lord and savior jesus christ!


It may not make sense for you, but it may help if you keep in mind that the Ethiopians treat the Ark in the way they do with the intent of glorifying God.



This is exactly it.  We venerate the Eucharist more so than the Ark, and yet the we feel the Ark is inherently more dangerous than the Eucharist, and further, in our Tradition we only hold the Eucharist in connection with the Ark via the Tabot altar slabs in each parish.  The reality of the matter is that we take the Ark quite literally, and all the literal warnings ascribed to the Ark in the Scriptures we continue to maintain. Are we held under the Law? No.  Is the Arks still under the Law, yes.  So while we are not legalistic, the Ark is and therefore such rigid legalism must also be held for the Ark. The Eucharist is the Universal blessing which we have access to receive in the Church, the Ark is a special blessing bestowed upon the Ethiopian people.  Also, the Ark is indeed a simultude of the Virgin Mary, and we having the Ark is exactly why we also feel we have a special relationship with Our Lady the Virgin called the Kidane Mehert (Covenant of Mercy)

We do not belittle the significance of the Eucharist because of the Ark, rather we embolden the powers even of the Eucharist precisely because we feel we are blessed with the Ark.  Further, we feel our possession of the Ark it the penultimate validation of the truth and authenticity of the Holy Scriptures, after all, the Ark actually existed, and surely somebody must still have it, and we believe it is us Smiley

If the Ethiopians are trying to mimic the Jews (which is the suggestion when you use Jewish practice to justify Ethiopian practice), then why do they never bring it out?

Like I said, Israel lived under the Law of ritual purity, and so the norm of behavior was to live a life ritualistically pure enough to enter into worship before the Ark in either the Tabernacle or the Temple.  In Christianity, we in Ethiopian tradition no longer rigidly maintain the Law, and so people are not usually expected to be ritualistically pure.  In this context then, it would be quite literally dangerous for them to be exposed to the Ark, as it could very well kill them! So the Church keeps the Ark separate from Christians because Christians are not held under the legal standards of purity which safeguard worshipers for the Ark.  If the Church were to bring out the Ark before people who were no ritualistically pure, the Church would be held responsible for the consequences.  Superstition or not, we believe this as an article of our faith.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 11:13:13 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2011, 12:19:00 AM »

Habte, why do you think that the Levitical purity code would still apply to the Ark of the Covenant?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
mark thomas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox
Jurisdiction: antioch
Posts: 152



« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2011, 02:25:41 AM »

This is indeed a fascinating thread.

Let me say, first, that I have great respect for the Ethiopian Church and the OO tradition. I've been fascinated by the Ark for a long time, and I'm enjoying and learning from all the posts on this thread.

As for why it has not been displayed, I have been troubled by a thought. Quoting Salpy from another thread (Issues Regarding the Ethiopian Tawahedo ...);
Quote
. My understanding is that what is left of the Ark is basically a flat piece of wood, and that is what is in the church in Ethiopia. It's not something that you would recognize from a Harrison Ford movie.

This also, in my opinion, supports its authenticity. After thousands of years, all you would expect to be left of it would be a fragment, not the whole thing as described in the Bible. If the Ethiopians were going to pull a hoax, they would have reconstructed something that looked like the Ark in Raiders.

If this description is accurate, then I wonder if perhaps the reason the Patriarch decided not to display it is because of its condition. And that's what's troubling me. The Ark of the Covenant was the very dwelling place of God. Therefore, it should be the most Deified  object in the physical world. As such, it should not be subject to corruption and decay. If it has deteriorated, that would seem to blow a high-gauge hole in the teaching of Deification, at least as I understand it.

Also, if the items God commanded to be stored within it - such as the manna - are no longer there,couldn't this be used to argue against God's existence or omnipotence (if He commanded them to be kept for all time, why did He not preserve them)?

These thoughts keep troubling me. Please tell me, am I "off base" with these concerns?
Logged

"Who touches, is also touched"
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2011, 02:28:42 AM »

Habte, why do you think that the Levitical purity code would still apply to the Ark of the Covenant?

Is it a requirement that priests of the Ethiopian church be Levites? Are they required to keep the laws of ritual purity? Is animal sacrifice, in particular, practised?

I would be a bit troubled by any kind of piecemeal approach to these issues.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2011, 03:16:36 AM »

It's in a crate labeled "Top Secret"
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2011, 07:23:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Habte, why do you think that the Levitical purity code would still apply to the Ark of the Covenant?

Why shouldn't it? Besides, do you want to be like Uzzah and try to touch it and see?

Quote
David again brought together all the able young men of Israel—thirty thousand. 2 He and all his men went to Baalah[a] in Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name, the name of the LORD Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim on the ark. 3 They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4 with the ark of God on it,[c] and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5 David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with castanets,[d] harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals.
 6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.

 8 Then David was angry because the LORD’s wrath had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.[e]

 9 David was afraid of the LORD that day and said, “How can the ark of the LORD ever come to me?” 10 He was not willing to take the ark of the LORD to be with him in the City of David.
2 Samuel 6:1-9
This is indeed a fascinating thread.

Let me say, first, that I have great respect for the Ethiopian Church and the OO tradition. I've been fascinated by the Ark for a long time, and I'm enjoying and learning from all the posts on this thread.

As for why it has not been displayed, I have been troubled by a thought. Quoting Salpy from another thread (Issues Regarding the Ethiopian Tawahedo ...);
Quote
. My understanding is that what is left of the Ark is basically a flat piece of wood, and that is what is in the church in Ethiopia. It's not something that you would recognize from a Harrison Ford movie.

This also, in my opinion, supports its authenticity. After thousands of years, all you would expect to be left of it would be a fragment, not the whole thing as described in the Bible. If the Ethiopians were going to pull a hoax, they would have reconstructed something that looked like the Ark in Raiders.

If this description is accurate, then I wonder if perhaps the reason the Patriarch decided not to display it is because of its condition. And that's what's troubling me. The Ark of the Covenant was the very dwelling place of God. Therefore, it should be the most Deified  object in the physical world. As such, it should not be subject to corruption and decay.

This is not accurate.  The "wooden slabs" are the tabotat (in the plural) or tabot, which are the consecrated altar slabs in each Ethiopian Orthodox parish, and most have two or three.  We take our baptismal names and the parish's namesake from the consecration of the Tabot of that parish.  For example, we have two tabotat in my parish, one dedicated to the Virgin Mary and another to the Holy Trinity, and as such all the people baptized there are either "such and such Maryam" or "such and such Selassie"

These have always been confused by outsiders for the original Ark simply because we use the same terms for them all.  Whether the original Ark or the altar slabs, all are called Tabot, though the main Ark is added Ye'Kidan Tabot (Of-Covenant Ark), and the etymology of the original Ge'ez for Tabot is very similar to the Hebrew for Ark (tebah) which is used for the Ark of the Covenant, the Ark of Noah, and the ark which Moses' mother placed him in as a baby when she sent him down the river.

Habte, why do you think that the Levitical purity code would still apply to the Ark of the Covenant?

Is it a requirement that priests of the Ethiopian church be Levites? Are they required to keep the laws of ritual purity? Is animal sacrifice, in particular, practised?

I would be a bit troubled by any kind of piecemeal approach to these issues.

Of course not, however, within our traditions, especially associated with the Ark and the Solomonic monarchy, it is believed that Levites accompanied the Ark and had intermarried within Ethiopian society.  This is part of the Bete Israel (falasha) origin myth as well..  Further, not EVERY priest handles the Ark of the Covenant, in fact the official tradition is that only a SINGLE priest guards it for his own lifetime and is replaced by a single successor each generation.  Personally, I would suppose that is possible within this kind of structured babysitting that a family line which has Levitical descent may very well be the applicant pool for this job.  On a mystical level, if it is not officially a Levite, I would believe that God chooses among the potential clergy those who possess this Levitical heritage as supposed in Ethiopian history.  I myself do not believe the original Ark is housed in that small chapel in Aksum, Saint Mary of Zion, however I do in fact believe that the Ethiopian Church possesses the Ark of the Covenant, though it may be held in obvious secret conditions for some of the above mentioned reasons.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 07:25:30 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2011, 08:49:59 PM »

Habte, if an Orthodox Christian can consume the Most Sacred Body and Most Precious Blood of Christ Jesus, God Himself, then - once I am received into the Church - I would have NO fear of touching the Ark of the Covenant, something that has been fulfilled in the Theotokos.  If I will one day have Christ's Body and Christ's Blood in my mouth, and then in my throat, and then in my stomach, how can I then fear touching the Ark of the Covenant?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,732


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2011, 08:52:17 PM »

Do you believe that you as a layperson should be able to go up on the bema and touch the altar and the chalice?
Logged

Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,732


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2011, 08:54:26 PM »

This is indeed a fascinating thread.

Let me say, first, that I have great respect for the Ethiopian Church and the OO tradition. I've been fascinated by the Ark for a long time, and I'm enjoying and learning from all the posts on this thread.

As for why it has not been displayed, I have been troubled by a thought. Quoting Salpy from another thread (Issues Regarding the Ethiopian Tawahedo ...);
Quote
. My understanding is that what is left of the Ark is basically a flat piece of wood, and that is what is in the church in Ethiopia. It's not something that you would recognize from a Harrison Ford movie.

This also, in my opinion, supports its authenticity. After thousands of years, all you would expect to be left of it would be a fragment, not the whole thing as described in the Bible. If the Ethiopians were going to pull a hoax, they would have reconstructed something that looked like the Ark in Raiders.

If this description is accurate, then I wonder if perhaps the reason the Patriarch decided not to display it is because of its condition. And that's what's troubling me. The Ark of the Covenant was the very dwelling place of God. Therefore, it should be the most Deified  object in the physical world. As such, it should not be subject to corruption and decay.

This is not accurate.  The "wooden slabs" are the tabotat (in the plural) or tabot, which are the consecrated altar slabs in each Ethiopian Orthodox parish, and most have two or three.  We take our baptismal names and the parish's namesake from the consecration of the Tabot of that parish.  For example, we have two tabotat in my parish, one dedicated to the Virgin Mary and another to the Holy Trinity, and as such all the people baptized there are either "such and such Maryam" or "such and such Selassie"

These have always been confused by outsiders for the original Ark simply because we use the same terms for them all.  Whether the original Ark or the altar slabs, all are called Tabot, though the main Ark is added Ye'Kidan Tabot (Of-Covenant Ark), and the etymology of the original Ge'ez for Tabot is very similar to the Hebrew for Ark (tebah) which is used for the Ark of the Covenant, the Ark of Noah, and the ark which Moses' mother placed him in as a baby when she sent him down the river.


Thank you for clearing that up.  I think there must have been a mix-up between the actual Ark and the altar slabs.
Logged

HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2011, 08:58:51 PM »

greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Habte, if an Orthodox Christian can consume the Most Sacred Body and Most Precious Blood of Christ Jesus, God Himself, then - once I am received into the Church - I would have NO fear of touching the Ark of the Covenant, something that has been fulfilled in the Theotokos.  If I will one day have Christ's Body and Christ's Blood in my mouth, and then in my throat, and then in my stomach, how can I then fear touching the Ark of the Covenant?

We're not allowed the touch the Tabot, only the clergy.  We're technically not even allowed to look at it without repentant prostrations.  If we can't touch or look at the mere consecrated symbols of the Ark, why would we be so presumptuous to attempt such irreverent misbehavior in regards to the Real Thing?  Again, if you want to be so brave as to attempt her that is fine with me, but I wouldn't dare!  Its sort of like Pascal's wager only reversed, if the Ark is really dangerous and you don't touch her, everything fine.  However, if she isn't dangerous and you touch her everything is also fine, but if she really is dangerous and you touch her imagine the consequences!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,732


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2011, 09:03:18 PM »

James,

Perhaps it would help if you try to not think of it in terms of us and what we can do, or should be able to do, or have a right to do.

Think instead in terms of showing proper fear of God and respecting and glorifying Him.

It's not about us.  It's about God.
Logged

mark thomas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox
Jurisdiction: antioch
Posts: 152



« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2011, 09:07:57 PM »

Thank you both for your replies. The thought of the Ark crumbling away was..disturbing. FWIW, I hope the Ark is safely tucked away and guarded safely.

But add my voice to the many, many who would love to see it.
Logged

"Who touches, is also touched"
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 14,087


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2011, 09:12:09 PM »

I had a thought. In model kit stores, I've seen replica sets for the Temple in Jerusalem. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody made a model of the Ark. Perhaps finding one of those would help assuage your curiosity. If you can't find one, you may want to read the Scriptural passages describing the Ark, and draw a sketch. There may be an art print store that will have one ready for you. All these things could help you have a way to contemplate the beauty of the Ark without getting to see it in person.

Someday, I would like to make a pilgrimage to visit many holy sites. Some of them I may get to see. Others, maybe I won't. Think of it this way: none of us gets everything. There's nothing wrong with being interested in the Ark, but let's just say you can still have a quality faith even if you never get to see it. The odds are that none of us will ever look on it. Let's try to be content with that.  Smiley
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2011, 11:21:29 PM »

This is a real question, I don't want anyone thinking that I am just trolling or something with this question.

What are the reasons that the Ethiopian church refuses to allow the faithful to venerate what they say is the Ark of the Covenant.

Selam to all

here comes another long one from me lol

The faithful have always been venerating the Ark and the Church has never refused to allow the veneration of the Ark, I have yet to see the kind of veneration that goes into the veneration of the ark both the original and those that are in every parish as replicas that are the Christianized version of the ark and the tablet, at present anywhere else in the world.

If we have cleared up this intentional or unintentional misunderstanding of terms, then perhaps we can speculate that the inquirer is asking why everyone cannot see and touch the ark, although it might be included in an act of veneration by definition veneration does not necessarily mean you have to see the person or the object nor does it require you to touch it to venerate it. Our Lord has thought us this by commending those people who have approached him with ‘Great Faith’ that often went counter logic and counter ego, that those that believe without seeing on the mercy and power of God often get their blessing from him because Holy is His Name, those that are pure of heart and perfect in their humility he is known to elevate to heights indescribable, yet the proud in the imagination of their hearts he scatters them away. Those that hope to receive His blessing by approaching in faithful humility and blessing him Who  is able to do anything, saying in their hearts’ kulu tekaehul Adonay!’/ ‘All is possible with you Adonay’ and live in humble obedience to his Will get the blessing they hunger and thirst for. Speaking by making the eyes and ears of the Apostles ours, we say we have seen him and heard him and ate and drank with him, talked with him and walked with Him. So we do not demand that the Risen Christ we believe in to show himself to each of the faithful before they can worship him. His Blessed Mother, we know of her glory and lover her dearly, yet we do not demand that we see and touch her to believe that she is the most wondrous of God’s Creation and venerate her with all the love and reverence reserved uniquely to the Theotokos. So it continues with all the saints and angels, with all that manifests the regeneration revivification of Creation by the Creator, in their respective status and rank are revered and venerated by the faithful. As to the Seeing and touching, God will give to whom He wills, however to demand this or that thing, the created is in no position to do neither, although the merciful God sometimes grants some of our childish tantrums and requests along with a reprimand when our intentions are pure so we may be believers and not unbelievers, this is not the rule, rather it is the exception granted for those with pure intent yet young in their spiritual growth.

As mentioned above there are those whom He willed to see and touch, to serve him in that level of service and glory. It is not only the original Ark of the Covenant that is not seen by just anyone, but rather it is all the replicas that are in every parish, they are only touched by priests, and among priests only select few will be permitted to carry them out in the processions. Even then they are not displayed bare but covered in all the holy vestments we humans can offer from the best we have to be suitable for their glory that comes from the Divine Presence in them. The Ark of the Covenant is seen only by the guardian priest monk elected and assigned to Her. And those who wish to venerate Her will only need to turn in her direction and glorify God who dwells in her. Think of this for a moment, whether the Ark is in that church or not, your faithful veneration will not be wasted. Matthew 10:41 “He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.” Matthew 7:8 “For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened”

Now as I have been moved deeply by the humility and faith of the Orthodox faithful and the Called by The Spirit Catechumens in here, I thought for those who are genuinely fascinated in this matter as I am, I would like to converse in this matter of the secrecy and silence concerning the Ark, that is the Archetype of the Theotokos, and the Theotokos herself the Mercy Seat, the Covenant of Mercy! The Seat of Wisdom, the Holy of Holies, a bit more, although I would not dare to go farther than I should or can so many of my thoughts are questions to help me meditate and marvel upon this mystery.
The ark had guardians/ care takers/ from the start, if you would look in the scriptures  beginning from the time of the great prophet of the Lord, Mosses to even when she was captured at the time of Samuel the Prophet , and  she sat on top of Dagon turning the idol into a heap of rubble and striking its worshipers with terrifying tumor infested them with rats, she comes back triumphant to Israel, interestingly enough with guilt offering made to the God of Israel by each tribe of philistine, one is reminded of the offering of the leaders of the 12  tribes of Israel  each entering one leader a day  and bringing an offering to the Altar of the LORD.  However it is not only the philistines that were afraid of being examined by the Ark to dare approach her. So we read in the scriptures how the joy of those  Israelites on whose field the Ark of the Lord chose to stay on for a while, turn into terror and could not wait for the Ark to be taken from their hands. For many were struck dead for daring to look at the Ark of the Lord. For a none believer  this an astounding and scandalizing reason, but for those who have an iota of understanding of who the God of Israel, before whom the prophets and the cherubim and the Seraphim cover their faces is, then it is no mystery as to why those who looked died. As it is written: 1 Samuel 6:1-21 “ 1When the ark of the Lord had been in Philistine territory seven months, 2the Philistines called for the priests and the diviners and said, “What shall we do with the ark of the Lord? Tell us how we should send it back to its place.”

3They answered, “If you return the ark of the god of Israel, do not send it away empty, but by all means send a guilt offering to him. Then you will be healed, and you will know why his hand has not been lifted from you.”

4The Philistines asked, “What guilt offering should we send to him?”

They replied, “Five gold tumors and five gold rats, according to the number of the Philistine rulers, because the same plague has struck both you and your rulers. 5Make models of the tumors and of the rats that are destroying the country, and pay honor to Israel’s god. Perhaps he will lift his hand from you and your gods and your land. 6Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When he treated them harshly, did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?

7“Now then, get a new cart ready, with two cows that have calved and have never been yoked. Hitch the cows to the cart, but take their calves away and pen them up. 8Take the ark of the Lord and put it on the cart, and in a chest beside it put the gold objects you are sending back to him as a guilt offering. Send it on its way, 9but keep watching it. If it goes up to its own territory, toward Beth Shemesh, then the Lord has brought this great disaster on us. But if it does not, then we will know that it was not his hand that struck us and that it happened to us by chance.”

10So they did this. They took two such cows and hitched them to the cart and penned up their calves. 11They placed the ark of the Lord on the cart and along with it the chest containing the gold rats and the models of the tumors. 12Then the cows went straight up toward Beth Shemesh, keeping on the road and lowing all the way; they did not turn to the right or to the left. The rulers of the Philistines followed them as far as the border of Beth Shemesh.

13Now the people of Beth Shemesh were harvesting their wheat in the valley, and when they looked up and saw the ark, they rejoiced at the sight. 14The cart came to the field of Joshua of Beth Shemesh, and there it stopped beside a large rock. The people chopped up the wood of the cart and sacrificed the cows as a burnt offering to the Lord. 15The Levites took down the ark of the Lord, together with the chest containing the gold objects, and placed them on the large rock. On that day the people of Beth Shemesh offered burnt offerings and made sacrifices to the Lord. 16The five rulers of the Philistines saw all this and then returned that same day to Ekron.

17These are the gold tumors the Philistines sent as a guilt offering to the Lord—one each for Ashdod, Gaza, Ashkelon, Gath and Ekron. 18And the number of the gold rats was according to the number of Philistine towns belonging to the five rulers—the fortified towns with their country villages. The large rock, on which they set the ark of the Lord, is a witness to this day in the field of Joshua of Beth Shemesh.

19But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the Lord. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the Lord had dealt them, 20and the men of Beth Shemesh asked, “Who can stand in the presence of the Lord, this holy God? To whom will the ark go up from here?”

21Then they sent messengers to the people of Kiriath Jearim, saying, “The Philistines have returned the ark of the Lord. Come down and take it up to your place.”
……………………..//………


So we read that they consecrated Eleazar, son of Aminadab as the guardian of the Ark of the Lord that stayed in the House of Aminadab  for 20 years. Then the people of God wanted to be like the people of the world, they wanted a king! They were warned what this would bring but they refused to listen, so the Lord gave them a king, but in His mercy, he did not abandon them even when they turned from His Kingship to the kingship of men. They did not want God to be their king, they wanted a man to be their king, a king after the likeness of the kings of the world. This sinful Evil choice is one of the main reasons why the majority of the Jews still look for the messiah, an earthly king, even when the Lord in his mercy has become Man and made them share the eternal kingdom, they fail to see Him as king. I see the parallel where the first Adam wanted to become lord and king of the universe and in the incarnations that wish was granted by God in a manner Adam did not anticipate. For the New Adam is the Lord and King of the Universe! Going back to our initial subject, when David the second king of Israel returned triumphant to the city of Jerusalem he thought of bringing the Ark to the city from the house of Aminadab, and here is what happened along the way to one of the guardians who took it upon himself to sustain the sustainer of the universe that was making the cows  leap and jump in joy as they pulled the chariot that the Ark was on and shaking the Ark. ( the English translation calls it stumbling, and IMHO loses its meaning in here, those that have seen young calves leap in joy will know what I mean). 2 Samuel 6:1-11 “David again brought together out of Israel chosen men, thirty thousand in all. 2He and all his men set out from Baalah of Judaha to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name the name of the Lord Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim that are on the ark. 3They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4with the ark of God on it and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals.

6When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God.

8Then David was angry because the Lord’s wrath had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.

9David was afraid of the Lord that day and said, “How can the ark of the Lord ever come to me?” 10He was not willing to take the ark of the Lord to be with him in the City of David. Instead, he took it aside to the house of Obed-Edom the Gittite. 11The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-Edom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord blessed him and his entire household.”


We see the terror that struck David, so another guardian was consecrated for the Lord and the Ark remained in the house of Obed-Edom the Gittite for three months. In these two examples we see the Lord striking those who looked at  and  those who touched the Ark of the Covenant, but there is another punishment of which for all practical purposes is equal to or may be even worse than death as punishments go and this time it is given for one that “spoke in contempt disdain and ridicule against those that revere the Ark with all they have got, as what we say does come from our heart, hear we see the reward of the Lord for such heart” here is what happened 2 Samuel 6:12-23 “12Now King David was told, “The Lord has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God.” So David went down and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. 13When those who were carrying the ark of the Lord had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. 14David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the Lord with all his might, 15while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets.

16As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him in her heart.

17They brought the ark of the Lord and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the Lord. 18After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord Almighty. 19Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.

20When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, “How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!”

21David said to Michal, “It was before the Lord, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the Lord’s people Israel—I will celebrate before the Lord. 22I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor.”

23And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.”


So when we look at all these we might imagine that the whole of Israel has lived in total reverence and obedience to God, but that is not true, David sinned, and His son Solomon after the Lord has given him Wisdom, he turned away from God, and the Lord declared that it is over for the line of Solomon in Israel. Yet before his fall a woman from the South of Israel came in search of the Wisdom of the Lord that was given to Solomon, she traveled far and long in her hunger for the revealed wisdom. In one of the Lord’s providence work as seen on Rahab and  Ruth the Moabite, the Queen of the South, Queen Makeda, whose Empire ruled from the present day Axum over all Ethiopia , Nubia, and borders of Misir and present day Yemen, via the trade her empire engaged with Jerusalem, Arabia misir/Egypt and India she heard of Solomon’s wisdom from a merchant named Tamrin, who travels from Ethiopia to Jerusalem for trade came to learn from the revealed wisdom from Solomon and thus at least according to the Ethiopian history and tradition, starts one of the mysterious journey of the Ark away from Solomon who will eventually turn away from the Lord.

Now let us see the parallel between the silence and secrecy with which the Ark lived, both the archetype and the Theotokos.From Adam to Noah to Abraham to David then to Christ, there was a battle raging between our kind and the one ancient enemy who has heard of the promise and the reason of our salvation, the birth of the living Ark from the seed of Adam, who will be the Mother of God the Savior and Redeemer of the World. To stop this from ever happening his solution was in his murderous mind simple, since he cannot kill those who are under God’s protection, make men reject God, and then when they stand alone the natural consequence of their sin will be enough to destroy men. Thus the Enemy sawed tares in the harvest of the Lord and ‘demanded justice’ from the just God, in his mockery, he claimed that those the Lord created have become his willing slaves, and those that are his he will use to blaspheme God with. So in this battle there was a secret kept from the eyes of the enemy, protection of that promise , from Adam to her that gave birth to the one who gave birth to God, all the protection of men was to preserve and protect this seed so the hope of mankind would not be lost. She was born in an ordinary time in an ordinary place in this world, hidden in her simplicity, yet her purity triggering a suspicious look from the enemy yet in her silence and humility he found no entrance to examine her heart so though he tried to make her life difficult before she conceived the Lord, she walked in purity protected by her obedience to God. The Prophet Isaiah sums up the gravity of the spiritual battle before the birth of Christ in few yet aptly descriptive words (again because I read the Geez translation which kept the correct translation from the LXX, the English versions of king James, NIV etc. greatly distort the translation and meaning of Isaiah’s words saying where the prophet says “zer”/ a seed, a remnant, the English translation says, a very small remnant, few survivors etc.  This is grave error truly so I will boldly substitute the correct word so it reads thus Isaiah 1:9 “Unless the Lord of hosts had left unto us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.” So in the fullness of time this one seed among us was found worthy to be the Mother to the Almighty God! And with her ‘yikunani!’/ let it be done! The Eternal entered time, summoned by his love, for our salivation, by His Will, and by the Will of His Father, and the Will of the Holy Spirit, he became like us in all things except sin.  When the uncontainable glory is contained in a womb of a young virgin in Nazareth Galilee, the LORD consecrates a guardian for her, a pure man of righteousness and humility, as well as courage to do the will of the Lord: St. Joseph.  An Exalted glory given to him only to guard the Living Ark of the New and Everlasting Covenant as well as to guard and raise the Christ Child the Sustainer of the Universe.

If this wonder is not enough to baffle many then we will be further baffled by the silence of this holy guardian. Some young in the faith might ask, why he didn’t proclaim from the roof tops that he now has living with him in his humble abode the Ark of the New Covenant, and the LORD Himself that was born of her. Why didn’t he became the first one to tell the world about all that Christ is? Surely the Ark can be protected by God so when Herod wanted to kill the Christ Child why not stay in Bethlehem and demonstrate God’s power by giving the Child to Herod and see what happens?! The young ones might consider this to be of a valuable experiment with a very logical hypothesis. The question might not stop there, why did the seat of wisdom, the Mother of God kept quite? Why didn’t she go around the world declaring that now she is the mother of the Creator of All? Why the silence? Why did she live among the poor when she could command all the reaches of the world? Why suffer exile and travel on the dusty roads of Jerusalem and the scorching sand of Egypt when she could have been living in any palace of her liking? Why were the Apostles mostly silent about her, knowing who and what she is? Why the secrecy? Why the silence?

We hear of the miraculous deeds that the Lord does among the multitude and we marvel. But how about His becoming a babe in her womb? Who can speak before this mystery? Human words become feeble and empty even meaningless in their capacity to describe this Wonder, this mystery! Who can describe with finite words that which is broader than the universe? Now see the glory of St. Joseph my brothers and sisters! For Whom the Lord wills indescribable unspeakable secrets are revealed, to  those who acquire the purity of heart a great gift of sight is given, the curtain is lifted and what they have seen have lead them into Silence! Mor Isaac the Syrian says” I tremble even before the glory of the walls of Joseph’s home!”  he, who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Although the secret has been revealed yet men remain blind, behold thy Mother! To the one who walked even to Golgotha in silence? As the apostles found it, it is not fit to talk of this part of the mystery with the young, for it will only scandalize them and the deceiver, ever attacking the incarnation would use it to spread doubt, however those children who have learned to love will taste the sweetness and delight of the mystery so filled with the Spirit, that will forever be the first witness of her glory, their mouth will cry out ‘ Rejoice thou, O Mary, Mother and Maid, for unto Him who is in thy bosom the angels bring praises, and the Cherubim bow down and worship Him in fear, and the Seraphim spread out their wings, and say concerning him ceaselessly,” This is the KING of GLORY.” He came to forgive the sins of the world in the greatness of His compassion. We beseech thee and lift our eyes to thee, so that we may find mercy and compassion with the lover of men.’  So the exalted nature of her mystery is reserved and reveled for those who are already insiders and as such who truly know and Love Her Son! Giving her due love and veneration in imitation of the love, and honor her Son has for her, we can only pray for such grace to fill our hearts to imitate him in his love for his mother!

In its arrogance and empty pride the  world is blind to its visitation for the Theotokos and her Son dwelt in plain sight in Nazareth in poverty within the least respected town of Israel. As to the Archetype of the Theotokos deserving of due honor and glory, for reasons only He knows of, He has honored us with it, and in the service of His Will, Ethiopia carrying her cross will hasten to stretch her arms perpetually in faith and humility towards God!

Selam to you all.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2011, 11:55:17 PM »


Does the "dangerous" aspect of the original ark transfer to copies made as well?

Hello my dear, to this question a lot of instances came to my mind yet, its not easy to speak of them , because miracles and such can only be told under a certain circumstances, however, God willing i found something that might be edifying even to the average listener. as it came from a highly unlikely source and purely as a testament of the greateness of God.  it is an event that found a spot light over 5 years ago in Ethiopia, a muslim man named kasim and his family bought a field  in yerer a place in Ethiopia for cheap from one of the farmers that owned it. kassim Ahemed, built his house and moved in with his family, soon he started experiancing strange things, he thought it was sorcerry , so he accused the seller of the land and in the dispute that followed the grand father of his neighbor told him that the land has somekind of christian magic on it, which is why the farmers could no longer farm on it, thier cattle became unruly and the people became terribly sick, some lost thier sanity some died. so they left it alone for a long time.
 what kassim was seeing was young children dressed in church vestment singing, and at the 6 hour of the day bells ringing, incense rising and a voice calling him to tell of what he sees. then kassim goes back frustrated and continues living his daily life, but soon, he started to dream, of a woman who said she is the Virgin Mary and that she told him that there is a buried Church in there with everything in it and that it is time to dig it out for the comfort of the people and for the Glory of God. kassim terrified of his dream and what he was seeing during the day, he went to the christians and told them, but they turned him away and did not even give an ear to what this muslim man was saying. kassim having no answer from the church went to all whom he thought could help him, all looked at him as if he was crazy, finaly after the journalists who got a wif of the story made it public a group of christians wanted to investigate his claim so they organised signed pettitions and asked for the government for the permission to dig the area, and they were granted permission by giving 25,000 birr, as a bond incase there is nothing found so the soil can be returned as is, but if there was gold or any mineral found the government will have a share, so the federal government sent its police to secure the area and monitor the dig and what might be found , and the digging started, there is a lot that is not in the report but I rather stop here.

http://www.africanews.com/site/Ethiopia_Dreamer_helps_unearth_ancient_church/list_messages/12282

Selam to you Smiley
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,638



WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2011, 12:15:15 AM »

What are the reasons that the Ethiopian church refuses to allow the faithful to venerate what they say is the Ark of the Covenant.
because what they have at st. mary of zion is a fake?
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2011, 12:20:34 AM »

Has no one here seen Raiders of the Lost Ark? Sheesh.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2011, 01:17:09 AM »

LOL Tallitot. If  fooling the public was what was intended it could have been displayed in the medieval times  where no one would have been none the wiser of what they are seeing, and those priests would have made a tons of money, long before the west and the nice little tourists started to drop by trying to become the real life Indiana johns lol and make tons of $$ for themselves like Indy Grin yet even then back where deception could have been pulled off , no such thing happened the same reverence the same secrecy persists through out time. and time has not been kind to Ethiopia yet she will never use the ark as many would want her to. but no matter,honestly speaking, it gives me great pleasure to encourage folks to search somewhere else in the world. happy travels! Grin
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Tags: Ark of the Covenant 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.144 seconds with 62 queries.