Ancient churches in Lalibela: built by aliens?

[neon_knights]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKufoU543AU

This is very interesting...

[biro]

So is when I close my eyes and squish my knuckles into them.

[Asteriktos]

Pretty tame, and comparably tenable, compared to some of the other claims I've heard about Ethiopian Christianity

[jewish voice]

On a side note I would love to visit those church's one day 

[FantaLimon]

How I loathe the History Channel of late...

I believe this is appropriate?

[akimori makoto]

Mr Tsoukalos needs a haircut.

[jewish voice]

 

[Jetavan]

How I loathe the History Channel of late...

I believe this is appropriate?

He's got tenure. You can tell.

[JamesRottnek]

Mr Tsoukalos needs a haircut.

"First they came for the communists,
but I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist."

If you wish to keep your own hair, defend the hair of others.

[Iconodule]

Yeah but the aliens were in turn instructed by the Ge'ez-speaking squirrels from Eden

[Ebor]

While I have not yet had a chance to look up the details and credentials of most of the persons who spoke on this clip, my dubious light is lit because I do know of Erich Van Daniken.  His book "Chariots of the Gods?" came out in 1968 and I read it when I was a teenager.  Even at that age the idea that earlier peoples were somehow too stupid to build things without "alien" help and lack of consideration of other ideas and considerations seemed to me to be lame and unsupported.  There were other books that took on this thesis and countered it like "Crash Go the Chariots" and "The Space Gods Revealed".  It is documented that Van Daniken, shall we say, did not always present real facts in his books.

Other places have large structures carved out of solid rock, even if they're not totally cut free of the surrounding material, such as Petra.  There are such buildings in India they were carved out of ridge of granite, from what I've read.  http://www.wondermondo.com/Countries/As/India/TamilNadu/PanchaRathas.htm
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/249/

So at least from what was shown on the clip, I see no reason to think that this thesis is true.

Ebor

[Ebor]

Oh no! it's double-dactyl time:

Higgledy-Piggledy
Erich Van Daniken
Found ancient astronauts
On ev'ry stone,

Super-intelligent
Extraterrestrial
Visitors never could
Leave us alone.

[Andrew21091]

Claiming that aliens built these churches or the pyramids is just white who try to explain away the fact that people of color were able to build amazing structures while their ancestors were bear baiting and living in huts.

[Ebor]

I think it's more a case of "chrono-snobbery", the idea that the ancestors weren't as intelligent or capable of figuring things so they needed some kind of help from "superior beings", since the video gives a date of these churches as the 12th century and there were large buildings existing in many parts of Europe and other places on the globe at the same time. Great Zimbabwe was being built in stone starting in the 11th century to give another example in Africa.

There are plenty of amazing structures or parts of them that are much older, Stonehenge and Silbury Hill in England and the Bru na Boinne site in Ireland (with Newgrange and Knowth among other works) are both ancient and marvelous as are the Pyramids, the remains of Persepolis and many others.   

[mark thomas]

I've always wondered why beings who could manage FTL inter-galactic flight would be so dang interested in rocks.

[akimori makoto]

Mr Tsoukalos needs a haircut.

"First they came for the communists,
but I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist."

If you wish to keep your own hair, defend the hair of others.

I might not agree with the way you wear your hair but I'll defend to the death your choice to wear it that way?

[Asteriktos]

Mr Tsoukalos needs a haircut.

"First they came for the communists,
but I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist."

If you wish to keep your own hair, defend the hair of others.

Follow the evidence!

[JamesRottnek]

Mr Tsoukalos needs a haircut.

"First they came for the communists,
but I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist."

If you wish to keep your own hair, defend the hair of others.

I might not agree with the way you wear your hair but I'll defend to the death your choice to wear it that way?

Exactly, especially for someone who has less-than-lawyerly hair, yet is a lawyer.

[quietmorning]

Only power tools? 

I hate it when scientists can't think their way through a straight line.

The history channel has really been quite dysfunctional lately. 

[Alveus Lacuna]

This is the reverse of Fr. Seraphim Rose. One says that angles are aliens, the other says that aliens are demons. Kind of interesting that they are in agreement about there being a similar relationship between the concepts.

Is this a kind of ecumenical dialog happening?

[podkarpatska]

How I loathe the History Channel of late...

I believe this is appropriate?

Maybe Mr. Tsoukalos can co-host a show with the 'spirit' of Nostradamus, via the guys from those stupid ghost shows on Sci-Fy Channel. I would call it 'Celebrity Hillbilly Hand-Fishing..' The Kardashian sisters could be the first guests. Whadda ya think? I'm smelling mega-hit!!!

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

I respectfully plead with everyone not to mock the Faith and Traditions of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. Ask questions, express your doubts, but please don't mock holy things. It is unproductive at best, and spiritually dangerous at worst.

As for the "aliens" theory, I will accept the wisdom of Church teaching over and above the vain speculations of secular sources like the History Channel.


Selam

[Michał Kalina]

No one is mocking anything here but those idiots who made that 'documentary'.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

No one is mocking anything here but those idiots who made that 'documentary'.

I was referring to these posts, which I found irreverent and unproductive to the issue at hand. I don't mean to be overly senstive, but I just think that as Orthodox Christians we should not mock the faith and traditions of our brethren. We are attacked, ridiculed, and mocked day and night by the world, so it saddens me when Orthodox Christians demean the faith of their own brethren. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40365.msg655154.html#msg655154

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40365.msg655201.html#msg655201


Selam

[Asteriktos]

No one is mocking anything here but those idiots who made that 'documentary'.

I was referring to these posts, which I found irreverent and unproductive to the issue at hand. I don't mean to be overly senstive, but I just think that as Orthodox Christians we should not mock the faith and traditions of our brethren. We are attacked, ridiculed, and mocked day and night by the world, so it saddens me when Orthodox Christians demean the faith of their own brethren. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40365.msg655154.html#msg655154

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40365.msg655201.html#msg655201

Ge'ez Gebre, take it easy. I'm not trying to mock you, just having some fun. And sometimes it's not just flippant and is meant to serve a purpose. Also, I've had people poke at me on this board before as well, and people sometimes make a mockery of what I believe. Doesn't matter. Just part of life.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

No one is mocking anything here but those idiots who made that 'documentary'.

I was referring to these posts, which I found irreverent and unproductive to the issue at hand. I don't mean to be overly senstive, but I just think that as Orthodox Christians we should not mock the faith and traditions of our brethren. We are attacked, ridiculed, and mocked day and night by the world, so it saddens me when Orthodox Christians demean the faith of their own brethren. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40365.msg655154.html#msg655154

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40365.msg655201.html#msg655201

Ge'ez Gebre, take it easy. I'm not trying to mock you, just having some fun. And sometimes it's not just flippant and is meant to serve a purpose. Also, I've had people poke at me on this board before as well, and people sometimes make a mockery of what I believe. Doesn't matter. Just part of life.

Your comment wasn't that offensive, more so Iconodule's. I certainly don't mind being teased personally (heck, if I couldn't take being personally mocked, I'd have never lasted this long on this forum), but I just think we should all be careful about denigrating the traditions of our fellow Orthodox brethren. Best to err on the side of not causing offense, IMHO.


Selam

[Asteriktos]

...I just think we should all be careful about denigrating the traditions of our fellow Orthodox brethren. Best to err on the side of not causing offense, IMHO.

Ok, good point

[JamesRottnek]

Is Ge'ez really the faith and tradition of the Ethiopian church?  I would find it odd that a communion would have proclaimed the True Language, instead of the True Faith.

[Severian]

Is Ge'ez really the faith and tradition of the Ethiopian church?  I would find it odd that a communion would have proclaimed the True Language, instead of the True Faith.

I think it is a local tradition of the EOTC. Sort of like how Salpy said that Armenians call Armenian "the holy language". But do correct me if I am mistaken.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Is Ge'ez really the faith and tradition of the Ethiopian church?  I would find it odd that a communion would have proclaimed the True Language, instead of the True Faith.

I think it is a local tradition of the EOTC. Sort of like how Salpy said that Armenians call Armenian "the holy language". But do correct me if I am mistaken.

Correct.


Selam

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I didn't watch that silly youtube clip but I just wanted to added some substance here.

The oral traditions around Lalibela ascribe that angels built the Churches, that men worked by day, and the Angels came in at night working at a miraculous pace. However, when you push guides or historians to speak further, some Ethiopian oral and written sources specifically attribute the building to the assistance of white people with red hair.  These of course the the Knights Templar, redheaded Frenchmen who had been quite active in Jerusalem where we know from mutual historical sources that they came into contact with the Ethiopians there.  Lalibela himself was temporarily exiled in Jerusalem for approximately 11 years, and some sources suggest that the Emperor himself had been in contact with these Knights, and that they may have accompanied him back to Ethiopia to help with the building project.  Saint Lalibela intended to build a New Jerusalem for the purposes of pilgrimage because the Ethiopians were beginning to have trouble getting to Jerusalem because of the beef between the Europeans and the Muslims (who had previously and mostly been quite friendly towards the Ethiopians).  If you look across the architecture of these superb monolith buildings, you find a lot of suggestive evidence of Templar presence, such as the very obvious Templar crosses which are carved in several of the Churches at Roha/Lalibela.



While this has become fantasy and historical fiction by some pseudo-authors, there is a lot of substantial truth to the history of French Templar involvement in Ethiopia.  Even in etymology, the term for "white/foreigner" in Amharic is "Ferenj" or literally, "Frank"

Also a note, the current Crown Prince of Ethiopia, His Imperial Highness Zere Yacob Asfa Wossen Haile Selassie (who is recognized by the Patriarch as the Hons Fonorum of Ethiopia), is also the official Imperial protector of the contemporary Order of the Knights Templar in Jerusalem. I have connections directly with HIH but I haven't even had the heart to ask what that is all about by the way,I might not want to know the answer.  The  pseudo-history and conspiracy theorists suggest the Templars were looking for the Ark, and I wouldn't doubt it.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[JamesRottnek]

So Ge'ez is the faith and tradition of Ethiopia?  And the Ethiopians say they are a Church?

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

So Ge'ez is the faith and tradition of Ethiopia?  And the Ethiopians say they are a Church?

What are you asking brother? Ge'ez is the liturgical language of our Church. Our tradition maintains that Ge'ez was the language spoken in the Garden of Eden (perhaps one language among many that were spoken without confusion at that time). Our tradition also maintains that the rock hewn Churches of Lalibela were built with the assistance of angels who came by night.

We are Orthodox Christians, and our Faith does not hinge upon language or buildings. Our Faith is based upon Christ, His Cross, and His Church. That being said, we uphold our sacred traditions; and we do not defer them to the whims of secular science or the specious speculations of secular history.



Selam

[Severian]

So Ge'ez is the faith and tradition of Ethiopia?  And the Ethiopians say they are a Church?

What are you asking brother? Ge'ez is the liturgical language of our Church. Our tradition maintains that Ge'ez was the language spoken in the Garden of Eden (perhaps one language among many that were spoken without confusion at that time). Our tradition also maintains that the rock hewn Churches of Lalibela were built with the assistance of angels who came by night.

We are Orthodox Christians, and our Faith does not hinge upon language or buildings. Our Faith is based upon Christ, His Cross, and His Church. That being said, we uphold our sacred traditions; and we do not defer them to the whims of secular science or the specious speculations of secular history.



Selam

Great post, particularly the last paragraph.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I didn't watch that silly youtube clip but I just wanted to added some substance here.

The oral traditions around Lalibela ascribe that angels built the Churches, that men worked by day, and the Angels came in at night working at a miraculous pace. However, when you push guides or historians to speak further, some Ethiopian oral and written sources specifically attribute the building to the assistance of white people with red hair.  These of course the the Knights Templar, redheaded Frenchmen who had been quite active in Jerusalem where we know from mutual historical sources that they came into contact with the Ethiopians there.  Lalibela himself was temporarily exiled in Jerusalem for approximately 11 years, and some sources suggest that the Emperor himself had been in contact with these Knights, and that they may have accompanied him back to Ethiopia to help with the building project.  Saint Lalibela intended to build a New Jerusalem for the purposes of pilgrimage because the Ethiopians were beginning to have trouble getting to Jerusalem because of the beef between the Europeans and the Muslims (who had previously and mostly been quite friendly towards the Ethiopians).  If you look across the architecture of these superb monolith buildings, you find a lot of suggestive evidence of Templar presence, such as the very obvious Templar crosses which are carved in several of the Churches at Roha/Lalibela.



While this has become fantasy and historical fiction by some pseudo-authors, there is a lot of substantial truth to the history of French Templar involvement in Ethiopia.  Even in etymology, the term for "white/foreigner" in Amharic is "Ferenj" or literally, "Frank"

Also a note, the current Crown Prince of Ethiopia, His Imperial Highness Zere Yacob Asfa Wossen Haile Selassie (who is recognized by the Patriarch as the Hons Fonorum of Ethiopia), is also the official Imperial protector of the contemporary Order of the Knights Templar in Jerusalem. I have connections directly with HIH but I haven't even had the heart to ask what that is all about by the way,I might not want to know the answer.  The  pseudo-history and conspiracy theorists suggest the Templars were looking for the Ark, and I wouldn't doubt it.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I have read plausible theories about the Knights Templar assisting in the construction of the Lalibela Churches. However, I take exception to the notion that this discounts the presence and assistance of Holy Angels in the process. Secular historians would have us believe that such wondrous architectural feats were only possible with the help of ET's and white people rather than the faithful endeavors of righteous African Christians who were assisted by the help of holy angels. Let us not cast our holy pearls before Babylon's swine.


Selam

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

So Ge'ez is the faith and tradition of Ethiopia?  And the Ethiopians say they are a Church?

What are you asking brother? Ge'ez is the liturgical language of our Church. Our tradition maintains that Ge'ez was the language spoken in the Garden of Eden (perhaps one language among many that were spoken without confusion at that time). Our tradition also maintains that the rock hewn Churches of Lalibela were built with the assistance of angels who came by night.

We are Orthodox Christians, and our Faith does not hinge upon language or buildings. Our Faith is based upon Christ, His Cross, and His Church. That being said, we uphold our sacred traditions; and we do not defer them to the whims of secular science or the specious speculations of secular history.



Selam

Great post, particularly the last paragraph.

Thanks brother.


Selam

[podkarpatska]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I didn't watch that silly youtube clip but I just wanted to added some substance here.

The oral traditions around Lalibela ascribe that angels built the Churches, that men worked by day, and the Angels came in at night working at a miraculous pace. However, when you push guides or historians to speak further, some Ethiopian oral and written sources specifically attribute the building to the assistance of white people with red hair.  These of course the the Knights Templar, redheaded Frenchmen who had been quite active in Jerusalem where we know from mutual historical sources that they came into contact with the Ethiopians there.  Lalibela himself was temporarily exiled in Jerusalem for approximately 11 years, and some sources suggest that the Emperor himself had been in contact with these Knights, and that they may have accompanied him back to Ethiopia to help with the building project.  Saint Lalibela intended to build a New Jerusalem for the purposes of pilgrimage because the Ethiopians were beginning to have trouble getting to Jerusalem because of the beef between the Europeans and the Muslims (who had previously and mostly been quite friendly towards the Ethiopians).  If you look across the architecture of these superb monolith buildings, you find a lot of suggestive evidence of Templar presence, such as the very obvious Templar crosses which are carved in several of the Churches at Roha/Lalibela.



While this has become fantasy and historical fiction by some pseudo-authors, there is a lot of substantial truth to the history of French Templar involvement in Ethiopia.  Even in etymology, the term for "white/foreigner" in Amharic is "Ferenj" or literally, "Frank"

Also a note, the current Crown Prince of Ethiopia, His Imperial Highness Zere Yacob Asfa Wossen Haile Selassie (who is recognized by the Patriarch as the Hons Fonorum of Ethiopia), is also the official Imperial protector of the contemporary Order of the Knights Templar in Jerusalem. I have connections directly with HIH but I haven't even had the heart to ask what that is all about by the way,I might not want to know the answer.  The  pseudo-history and conspiracy theorists suggest the Templars were looking for the Ark, and I wouldn't doubt it.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I have read plausible theories about the Knights Templar assisting in the construction of the Lalibela Churches. However, I take exception to the notion that this discounts the presence and assistance of Holy Angels in the process. Secular historians would have us believe that such wondrous architectural feats were only possible with the help of ET's and white people rather than the faithful endeavors of righteous African Christians who were assisted by the help of holy angels. Let us not cast our holy pearls before Babylon's swine.


Selam

Thank you for that reminder, the achievements made in FAITH by the Ethiopians are no more, or less, astounding than the construction techniques used by the Byzantines in erecting Hagia Sophia, or the pre-Christian Romans in building the Pantheon, for 1600 years now consecrated and preserved as the Church known as the Santa Maria Rotonda. No one (excepting crackpots like the ones in the program) would presume ET helped build those Romans or Greeks and it is culturally insensitive to make a 'fakeumentary' like that of the "History" channel. They should stick to the Kardashians on channels like that and leave the real history to Ken Burns and PBS!

[jnorm888]

Claiming that aliens built these churches or the pyramids is just white who try to explain away the fact that people of color were able to build amazing structures while their ancestors were bear baiting and living in huts.

They try and say the samething about stone-hinge too!

The sad thing is people all over are actually believing this stuff from the History Channel. I guess they feel that since it's the History Channel it must be true.

I see this as a negative side affect of Progressivism. Progressivism looks down on those of the past. It sees them as primitive, un-educated, stupid, un-enlightened .......etc.

Progessivim doesn't want to believe that our ancestors were smart. That they were able to build great things, and do great things.

[jnorm888]

 That being said, we uphold our sacred traditions; and we do not defer them to the whims of secular science or the specious speculations of secular history.

Selam

It's good that the Ethiopian Orthodox don't bow down to secular science and secular history

[jnorm888]

For some reason this thread reminds me of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYVkJu8xKCo&feature=player_embedded (Jesus and the Space Aliens)

[biro]

I used to watch "In Search Of," and even then, I knew this stuff was bonkers. Leonard Nimoy was awesome, though. 

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So Ge'ez is the faith and tradition of Ethiopia?  And the Ethiopians say they are a Church?

I would like to clarify what is "sacred" about the Ge'ez tradition because much like with the tabot confusions, the Ethiopian nomenclature doesn't readily translate into English.  Ge'ez refers to both the language itself and also the three modes of Ethiopian indigenous liturgical chanting, attributed to the illustrious Saint Yared.



It is the chant which is sacred, and the chant is preserved in the original Ge'ez language because of the musical notations. So when we in Ethiopian tradition speak of a sacred liturgical language, we are speaking the same context as the Gregorian or Byzantine chants.

I have read plausible theories about the Knights Templar assisting in the construction of the Lalibela Churches. However, I take exception to the notion that this discounts the presence and assistance of Holy Angels in the process. Secular historians would have us believe that such wondrous architectural feats were only possible with the help of ET's and white people rather than the faithful endeavors of righteous African Christians who were assisted by the help of holy angels. Let us not cast our holy pearls before Babylon's swine.

True, we shouldn't discount any miraculous intervention, however we should also not disregards some of the observed facts of history, which several streams of evidence are beginning to strongly suggest.  Yes, some Eurocentric authors perhaps misinterpret this history as demonstrative of some kind of Ethiopian inferiority but that is silly and from their bias.  If anything, it would suggest the opposite, the Ethiopians must truly have held some kind of sway in order to convince the Templars, who were themselves even in the 12th century wealthy and powerful, to come all the way to remote Ethiopia and to invest years of time, resources, and labor for an Ethiopian public works project.  I myself would speculate three European motives (and you can find these three motives across all the European interaction with Ethiopia from the Crusades through the searches for Prester John and the Portuguese episode and even the later British excursions; I also believe that European exploration itself was part of this romantic affair with Ethiopia the European oligarchs had with Ethiopia): (a) to court favor with the Muslims because the Ethiopians, either through diplomacy or coercion had always seemed to have favorable relationships with the Muslims, (b) to establish economic ties with East Africa as an anchor into the Orient and (c) a thousand year love affair with the romantic fable of Prester John, the great Ethiopian King who could help unite with Europe and retake the world in a new Pax Romana.  Be it the Crusaders, the Explorers, and even the later Russians, all seemed to think there was almost some kind of mystical power associated with the Emperors, even when there wasn't the kind of material evidence to support it.  For example, during the 19th century, when Europeans were in the height of the Scramble for Africa, the British, French,  Italians, and Russians all played Cold War games in Ethiopia around Emperors Yohannes IV and Menelik II including arms races, coups, assassinations, and pitch battles pinning the Egyptians, Sudanese, Somalis, and internal Ethiopian rivals all against each other.  I digress to point out that the European relationship with Ethiopia has always been much more complicated then simply a beligerant European trying to abuse Ethiopians, it is often been both mutual and back and forth like a Chess match.  Perhaps Ethiopia's success in the game stems from the even more complex internal politics of Ethiopian civilization, which has made leadership a true skill, and Ethiopian Emperors play their chess with the utmost wit and grace, duping internal and external foes alike, African, Arab, or European.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Ortho_cat]

greetings earthlings...take me to your bishop!

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

greetings earthlings...take me to your bishop!

The Ab Squad

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie

[Elijah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKufoU543AU

This is very interesting...

Roha/ "Lalibela"[saint] is the "Jerusalem" of Ethiopian Orthodox worshippers. The narrative in the youtube is not accurate. By the way Roha is another name for the place.

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