Author Topic: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite  (Read 1070 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline scamandrius

  • Musicians don't dance
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,943
  • Why do I waste my time here?
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« on: October 15, 2011, 11:40:46 AM »
This is a sensitive topic for me and I in no ways wish to insult a priest, a very good man.  Whenever my priest goes out of town (which has been a lot lately) or is otherwise unable, the celebration of Vespers and also Orthros and the Divine Liturgy has been left to a retired archpriest.  However, he is a Western Rite priest.  He does not know the Eastern Rite well at all. He frequently skips over individual parts of the service, he does not know the rubrics and frequently adds/subtracts words from the service as he deems fit.  As a result, the "dialogue" between priest and faithful is choppy, at best, and doesn't flow organically.  He's also does not know the Byzantine tones (and he has said he has no desire to learn them) and it is very hard for us chanters to pitch off of him and he cannot pitch off of us.  And, one more matter, in his sermons, he always talks about the Western Rite and how Orthodox it is.

Does this happen anywhere else where a Western Rite priest will serve an Eastern Rite Vespers, Orthros and Divine Liturgy?  Again, he is a very good man, but frankly, he doesn't know what he's doing a lot of the time and it impedes my ability to pray.

To moderators: I apologize if I put this in the wrong place, but there are multiple issues here.
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2012, 11:04:33 PM »
This is a sensitive topic for me and I in no ways wish to insult a priest, a very good man.  Whenever my priest goes out of town (which has been a lot lately) or is otherwise unable, the celebration of Vespers and also Orthros and the Divine Liturgy has been left to a retired archpriest.  However, he is a Western Rite priest.  He does not know the Eastern Rite well at all. He frequently skips over individual parts of the service, he does not know the rubrics and frequently adds/subtracts words from the service as he deems fit.  As a result, the "dialogue" between priest and faithful is choppy, at best, and doesn't flow organically.  He's also does not know the Byzantine tones (and he has said he has no desire to learn them) and it is very hard for us chanters to pitch off of him and he cannot pitch off of us.  And, one more matter, in his sermons, he always talks about the Western Rite and how Orthodox it is.

Does this happen anywhere else where a Western Rite priest will serve an Eastern Rite Vespers, Orthros and Divine Liturgy?  Again, he is a very good man, but frankly, he doesn't know what he's doing a lot of the time and it impedes my ability to pray.

To moderators: I apologize if I put this in the wrong place, but there are multiple issues here.

Hi scamandrius. I'm probably not going to be any help as far as answering your question -- as a matter of fact, I have never even managed to get to a WRO Liturgy (although I would certainly like to, given the opportunity).

But I wanted to chime in here anyhow, because what you spoke about (and even the thread title) on the Orthodox side seems to me to be in very strong contrast to how it is on the Catholic (Roman and Eastern) side.

There was a thread on byzcath, about a year ago, about the possibility of an EC parish celebrating a western liturgy; I don't want to quote the whole thing, but I think that just one quote summarizes it well:

Quote from: Irish Melkite
Quote
In view of that I'm curious: have any of you been to, or at least heard of, an EC parish that actually uses the Roman Rite, or another western rite? Not a hybrid, I mean, but truly a western rite?

This is a praxis that ceased to be when our parishes were no longer served by untrained Latin priests for lack of our own clergy. It could only be justified presently if a parish had no priest and a Latin priest without faculties were asked to afford pastoral care to it in the interim until one could be assigned.

An attempt to do so by a priest of a sui iuris Church would, at the very least, violate the Particular Law of his Church and the priest would find quickly himself in the same situation as the 'renegade' Ukrainians.

(By "in the same situation as the 'renegade' Ukrainians" I believe Neil was referring to excommunication.) I'm not by any means trying to suggest that there shouldn't be any differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but I'm wondering if anyone can help me understand why, on this particular issue, it seems to be so radically different on the Orthodox side than on the Catholic side?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 11:12:17 PM by Peter J »
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 12:22:40 AM »
If I understand what difference you are pointing to, the reason why Orthodox priests who normally serve the WR or ER may serve the other is because a priest may serve any and all services that his bishop permits him to.  Fundamentally, then, this is really the same as the Catholic Church with the difference being that each diocesan bishop may (presumably within the confines of any direction the synod has given on the matter) permit any priest in his diocese to perform any rite, whereas (I believe) the Catholic priests have to go through the Vatican to have permission to perform other rites.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline TheMathematician

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,898
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2012, 12:38:33 AM »
If I understand what difference you are pointing to, the reason why Orthodox priests who normally serve the WR or ER may serve the other is because a priest may serve any and all services that his bishop permits him to.  Fundamentally, then, this is really the same as the Catholic Church with the difference being that each diocesan bishop may (presumably within the confines of any direction the synod has given on the matter) permit any priest in his diocese to perform any rite, whereas (I believe) the Catholic priests have to go through the Vatican to have permission to perform other rites.
i WANT to say that priests in the CC need the bishop's permission of the rite that he wishes to serve. ie, a latin rite bishop would, in addition to his own bishop's permission, need the permission of the local EC bishop.

If i am wrong on this, then i think that the proper permission needed is their own local bishop's, and that is all

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,221
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2012, 12:42:28 AM »
Latin Catholic Priests, from what I was told when I was still a Roman Catholic, must be trained and approved by their Ordinary (Bishop) in order to get bi-ritual faculties which would enable them to celebrate Holy Services in both the Eastern Catholic and Latin Catholic parishes. I knew some Catholic seminarians who had hoped to get bi-ritual faculties, but their bishop did not approve their application. They were quite disappointed, so they tried to transfer to an Eastern Catholic seminary. Again they again were not approved. In fact, they were disciplined. Some Roman Catholic Bishops appear to be very anti-Eastern, especially in their shortage of priests.

I have heard that the Antiochian Bishops encourage their priests to celebrate both the Eastern Holy Services and those of the WRO. However, the situation expressed by the OP seems rather strange as respect should be shown for both.

Personally, I prefer to attend the Eastern Orthodox Holy Services rather than the WRO Services, especially those celebrated in the Antiochian Archdiocese. When I attended two Masses in an WRO Antiochian parish, and then stayed for a day of recollection, I was shocked that the priests were teaching the people to distinguish between mortal and venial sins when they go to confession. Furthermore, one priest chastised the parishioners for confessing faults that were not considered venial sins as he felt it was a waste of his time. He sounded so Latinized that I never went back to that church.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 12:45:14 AM by Maria »
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline FrAugustineFetter

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
    • Western Orthodox Christian
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2012, 01:22:52 AM »
As long as a Priest is competent, and has permission from the Bishop, the idea sounds, well... sound!

The concept of 'rite' also, sometimes, while useful for categorization purposes of liturgiologist, and such, can be oftentimes to 'confining'; in other words, the ideal for the Church should be the bishop, and he has priests under his omophor who use whatever approved Orthodox rites as practiced by the saints of the Church.  As long as people don't seek to promote the idea of 'sui generis' churches that have overlapping bishops and such, for each 'rite', then people should be in good shape as far as that goes.

The other issues might be confusion. If a parish or mission is primarily composed of people used to the 'Eastern rite', but, the priest just wishes, willy nilly, to use 'Western rite' one Sunday, or such, that can cause major, major problems; and, to be frank, vice versa.  Stability is necessary, while all the Liturgies of the Church are good, all good things must be in order.

Fr. Augustine

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2012, 09:14:09 AM »
Thanks for those replies, night-owls. I definitely know more about Eastern Catholicism than about Western Rite Orthodoxy, but even with regard to the former I find it confusing sometimes -- for example, Catholic canon law will speak of a "transfer to another Church sui iuris", but in most conversations people call it a "change of rite".

Just in case I didn't already make this clear in my post yesterday: I don't in any way want to make it sound like the WRO should change to the way Eastern Catholicism does thing; just trying to understand both of them better. Thanks.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 09:15:20 AM »
i WANT to say that priests in the CC need the bishop's permission of the rite that he wishes to serve.

I believe you are correct.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2012, 09:50:53 AM »
i WANT to say that priests in the CC need the bishop's permission of the rite that he wishes to serve.

I believe you are correct.

I'm afraid you are wrong. An approval from the Congregation for the Oriental Churches is required.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2012, 10:19:50 AM »
i WANT to say that priests in the CC need the bishop's permission of the rite that he wishes to serve.

I believe you are correct.

I'm afraid you are wrong. An approval from the Congregation for the Oriental Churches is required.

Mightn't both of those things be required?
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Western Rite priests celebrating the Eastern Rite
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2012, 10:39:44 AM »
I suppose a paper from one's bishop is required for the application to the Vatican.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject