Author Topic: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?  (Read 25415 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #135 on: October 19, 2011, 12:42:40 AM »

I can't speak for Mother Teresa.  Her example of being a Christian in that photo speaks for her.   So whether or not she would be appalled at what you think is false I have no idea.

So what people are saying is "you don't really need incense but its nice".  People have said "it sets the mood for worship".  People have said "its an offering".  

I don't know if there is anything wrong with incense.  But I think its being used the wrong way in many cases.  When you speak of an offering its okay, but many folks here speak of it as a faith crutch.  

With that said in terms of offering, do you think God wants incense more or your charity, love, and forgiveness to one another?  Did Yeshua ever ask for incense or was his messages clear for us in our actions and treatment towards each OTHER?

The offering issue is okay, although offerings are kind of ironic in logic (he created it, its his, and you give it back when he could make infinite more like it), but the deeds and sacrifices in charity and kindness we do for each other --- doesn't that show a much stronger Christianity?

We are to do both.

"But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others" (Luke 11:42 NASB).

Thanks for the reply, but this has nothing to do with incense unless you are calling incense tithing.    Translations of this passage talk of "a tenth" but you can't give "a tenth" of incense.   I've never heard of incense being used as a tithe before, but I suppose it could.   
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #136 on: October 19, 2011, 12:55:33 AM »
Incense gets me in the mood to pray and it sometimes tricks God into granting my prayers.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #137 on: October 19, 2011, 01:01:20 AM »
So the photo you posted of the incense though it be mystical has nothing to do with the suffering for Christ, Spreading his message, or helping others be charitable.  It has to deal with an old man running through clouds of incense amongst his congregations and make believe beam through window icons representing saints, Christ, and God.   It's a crutch.
If you want people to take you seriously, show more respect for their point of view. Using such invective against traditions with which you disagree shows that you're here only to hear yourself pontificate and to troll. This forum doesn't exist to be your personal soap box.

Also just FYI, you may actually want to know something about the anabaptists before you bash all their points.  I hate to break it to you, but I've never met a more wholesome group, with good children, and respectful people.   Their fruits have far exceeded Eastern Orthodoxy in this century and their divorce rate is over 14% lower.  "You will know them by their fruits".
Why are you bringing up the Anabaptists again? Can't you bring this up on those threads you have already devoted to the subject? Why do you need to bring it up here?

So tell me if Eastern Orthodoxy is absolutely correct, then why do the members have such a worse divorce rate on their sacrament?
You think we've forgotten all the discussions we've had on this "fact" already? The thing about the Internet is that we have a complete record of everything you've ever said here. There is no forgetting.

Also if you do read and/or speak Yeshua's native tongue, then you are purposely deviating the name of our God.
You've already started a number of threads to advance this thesis. Could you at least reserve your arguments in favor of the name Yeshua for those threads you've already devoted to the subject?

Sorry I thought this forum was called "free for all".   I was on "free for all" under "religious topics".  Not trying to troll at all or have a personal soap box.   I hope I have not conveyed myself that way.

The "fact" is true. http://www.helleniccomserve.com/divorceperspective.html http://www.examiner.com/frugal-living-in-national/amish-wealth

Come on he baited me and you know it.   He argued that he knew much about the native language and called me "JesusisIAM" just to rub it in my face.    The fact is he was twisting the name of God on purpose to make a point to get under my skin.   It's "tidbits" of attacks, such as you calling the name of God incarnate a "thesis" that I feel obligated to defend the native name of our savior.
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #138 on: October 19, 2011, 01:02:51 AM »
selam all:)

Ialmisry Long LIFE for all the pictures and the wonderful explanations!!! that comparison between the the human brain and the mystical language of the rising of incense in worship was perfect!!!!!!! the language of worship is lost to many today, which is why they find it hard to understand or decode what they are seeing in worship. so quite naturally what they do not understand they speak against , which only serves to broadcast their ignorance in my opinion and does not alter one bit of reality and make it untrue.

yeshua, the either or argument does not work, especially in the case of Charity love of God and Love of neighbor are tied together, it is as a result of loving God that one loves Ones neighbor. what mother Teressa is doing is the extension of the Liturgy! it is love of neighbor , that came as a result of Loving God with all her might, the rising incense is her work/ liturgy ascending towards God, if you see clearly enough it is all the act of the royal priesthood the offering of  oneself in the act of charity and the offering of worship it is tied together. one can not do one perfectly without the other. so do not attempt to separate them. as without the Loving and Worshiping God( which means our sacrifices we make the burnt offerings to the True God who can receive them)  our good deeds are meaningless, and if we say we love God and worship Him yet we forget our neighbor then all our sacrifices and burnt offerings are meaningless to God. you see!This is the Commandment of LOVE!  it goes together!!! it all ties together!!! for this reason  we read in the Gospel
, Mark 12:28-34 "28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.e 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”

32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.



this is what he means when he commands us to do both! to Give what is due to God as he has commanded in worship and adoration, and uniting it with mercy love forgiveness etc towards others. the Pharisees tithed the people in keeping with the commandment of the law as they should, in obedience to God and His Law, yet the forgot the other commandment of Charity! so the Lord makes them face the error of their ways and says you should have done both!!! if you do one and negelect the other its hypocracy! love of God and love of neighbor again!

Mathew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

yeshua we should do both!
 :angel:
selam to all. ;D
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #139 on: October 19, 2011, 01:45:03 AM »
So the photo you posted of the incense though it be mystical has nothing to do with the suffering for Christ, Spreading his message, or helping others be charitable.  It has to deal with an old man running through clouds of incense amongst his congregations and make believe beam through window icons representing saints, Christ, and God.   It's a crutch.
If you want people to take you seriously, show more respect for their point of view. Using such invective against traditions with which you disagree shows that you're here only to hear yourself pontificate and to troll. This forum doesn't exist to be your personal soap box.

Also just FYI, you may actually want to know something about the anabaptists before you bash all their points.  I hate to break it to you, but I've never met a more wholesome group, with good children, and respectful people.   Their fruits have far exceeded Eastern Orthodoxy in this century and their divorce rate is over 14% lower.  "You will know them by their fruits".
Why are you bringing up the Anabaptists again? Can't you bring this up on those threads you have already devoted to the subject? Why do you need to bring it up here?

So tell me if Eastern Orthodoxy is absolutely correct, then why do the members have such a worse divorce rate on their sacrament?
You think we've forgotten all the discussions we've had on this "fact" already? The thing about the Internet is that we have a complete record of everything you've ever said here. There is no forgetting.

Also if you do read and/or speak Yeshua's native tongue, then you are purposely deviating the name of our God.
You've already started a number of threads to advance this thesis. Could you at least reserve your arguments in favor of the name Yeshua for those threads you've already devoted to the subject?

Sorry I thought this forum was called "free for all".   I was on "free for all" under "religious topics".  Not trying to troll at all or have a personal soap box.   I hope I have not conveyed myself that way.
Well, you have.

The "fact" is true. http://www.helleniccomserve.com/divorceperspective.html http://www.examiner.com/frugal-living-in-national/amish-wealth
I didn't say it wasn't. I just argue that this "fact" doesn't mean what you say it means.

Come on he baited me and you know it.   He argued that he knew much about the native language and called me "JesusisIAM" just to rub it in my face.    The fact is he was twisting the name of God on purpose to make a point to get under my skin.   It's "tidbits" of attacks, such as you calling the name of God incarnate a "thesis" that I feel obligated to defend the native name of our savior.
Personally, I don't really care if he baited you. If the fish takes the bait and ends up getting hooked by the fisherman, we can give the fisherman some credit for knowing how to fish, but we also have to recognize that the fish acted rather stupidly to take the bait. You're just like the fish in this analogy, except that we can expect you to be smarter than the fish. You could have recognized that Isa was baiting you and ignored him.

Besides, your insistence that we're twisting the name of God by calling His Son Jesus instead of Yeshua makes you an easy target for such baiting. You make it very easy for others to know exactly what buttons to push to get you riled up.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 01:49:16 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #140 on: October 19, 2011, 02:24:03 AM »
Quote
although offerings are kind of ironic in logic (he created it, its his, and you give it back when he could make infinite more like it)

You staunchly defend the Eucharist, yet you dismiss incense. What does an Orthodox priest pray as he raises the chalice at the Anaphora? Your own of Your own offering we offer You, on behalf of all and for all. God made the incense which we burn in His honor, He also made the bread and wine used in the Eucharist.

You can't have it both ways.



*BUMP*
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #141 on: October 19, 2011, 08:51:16 AM »
Yeshuaisiam,

I've still got a question for you. Frankincense is a naturally occurring, highly aromatic resin. What do you think should be done with this resin?
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #142 on: October 19, 2011, 09:05:51 AM »
Yeshuaisiam,

I've still got a question for you. Frankincense is a naturally occurring, highly aromatic resin. What do you think should be done with this resin?

JLatimer,

Off the point completely, why do I forever think you are RC? Is there a sometime user with a similar username?

Offline Schultz

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #143 on: October 19, 2011, 09:41:32 AM »
There's JMichael, who is a Roman Catholic.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #144 on: October 19, 2011, 11:37:32 PM »
This isn't the image God has of a worshipper:

it is this


Love it!

Where is the second image from?
Not sure if this question has been answered already, but...

It is an image of a Coptic Orthodox Priest, from what I can tell. It is probably during the service called "Raising up of the Incense". Firstly, he wears the cap and stole typical of Coptic Priests and also because that Iconostasis uses Western-style iconography which has, unfortunately, become very popular within the COC as of late.

ialmisry, am I correct?
yes, but there is more to the story, halfway down here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40241.msg655723/topicseen.html#msg655723
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #145 on: October 19, 2011, 11:47:33 PM »
What's funny is, they sometimes use incense and icons in Roman Catholic churches too, so Mother Teresa would have had no problem with it either.  ;)

Also, he doesn't seem to know that Orthodox people give food to the poor, as well.

Fact-checking: it's fun and easy.

You don't understand what I am saying.
You don't understand what you are saying.

I am in a question session here, its how my mind works.



Which looks more "Christian" to you.
Both.

Btw, were Christ and the Apostles feeding the poor while they were "getting the snot beat out of them"?

Mother Teresa as well as the Orthodox Clergy both can use incense, but what's the point when there are so many to help?
Funny, Judas asked the same thing.  "The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have Me."

It wasn't mother Teresa specifically that I was "singling out".  Wow I post one thing and many a Catholic field day.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #146 on: October 20, 2011, 12:47:23 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Such arrogance, you realize that good folks like Mother Theresa would simply be appalled at your fictional dichotomy right?

Why does it have to be an either or? You're supposing that incense is not as valid as the charity, and yet both act together.  The priests pray and offer incense for the sake of the entire world, night and day, and this interacts in a mystical way towards those who act in God's grace.  Those who do charitable deeds do so in the Grace of God, and we in the Orthodox believe that our priests offering prayers and incense night and day cooperate in synergy with all God's Grace.  So they act together, further, how can you be so sure that one can exist without the other, because you've never known a time in history where they both didn't exist together.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I can't speak for Mother Teresa.  Her example of being a Christian in that photo speaks for her.   So whether or not she would be appalled at what you think is false I have no idea.
and it shows.

The pictures I posted show her at papal high mass, where there was lots of gold and lots of incense, but not a word from her against either.

Like biro said, fact checking.  You should try it some time.

So what people are saying is "you don't really need incense but its nice".  People have said "it sets the mood for worship".  People have said "its an offering".
They're not mutually exclusive.

I don't know if there is anything wrong with incense.  But I think its being used the wrong way in many cases.  When you speak of an offering its okay, but many folks here speak of it as a faith crutch.
you're the only one speaking about it as faith crutch (in addition to inventing the concept).  You still haven't explained, btw, how you do without that other faith crutch, the words said in prayer.  Is that soup Mother Teresa spooning out also a faith crutch?  After all, shouldn't she trust God to feed the poor, like the Hebrews and manna or Elijah and the ravens?

With that said in terms of offering, do you think God wants incense more or your charity, love, and forgiveness to one another?
All of the above.  That you want to shortchange God in any of it is your shortcoming, not ours.


Did Yeshua JESUS
יֵשׁוּעַs spell it right, or don't spell it at all.
ever ask for incense or was his messages clear for us in our actions and treatment towards each OTHER?
"Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!""

Christ accepted the nard and rebuked Judas.

The offering issue is okay, although offerings are kind of ironic in logic (he created it, its his, and you give it back when he could make infinite more like it),
take it up with Him.  As they say "it's the thought that counts."  Otherwise, how could the widow's mite outdonate the riches of the wealthy, when He can make infinite more like it.

but the deeds and sacrifices in charity and kindness we do for each other --- doesn't that show a much stronger Christianity?
Christ founded the Church, not an almshouse.  Come to think of it, does JESUS ever feed the poor in the Gospel? We see Him worshipping in the Temple and Synagogue all the time.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 12:49:06 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #147 on: October 20, 2011, 01:02:39 AM »
Why do you live in the world of mutual exclusives?

I say this in kindness:

That boy in the photo sitting in shambles starving, while the priests pray for God's help in ornateness, it creates a horrendous world in irony.
Only in your imagination.

I wonder if his undergarments say "made in India".
More likely "made in Egypt." It's the best cotton in the world, although the real good stuff is exported, and the other grades left for the Egyptians who grow it.


I'm the type of person who thinks I'm a hypocrite to sit in a church praying for God's help in protection and well being in an outfit made in sweatshops that have exploited people.   The thought of that is too extreme for many to accept.
be more choosey where you shop then.  But don't project your self flagellation on us.

btw, I can guarentee that Abuunaa's undergarments were not made in a sweat shop.  That stuff is sent your way in Texas.  They don't waste sweat for those in the third world.

So I have gotten to the point where I have exclusives and a lot of them.
So it has been a progressive madness.  I see.

If incense is very much needed for faith to exist, then it is a crutch and could possibly lead people to falsely believe they have more faith than they do.
More than you do.  You think you have all the answers, all by yourself, two thousand years later and thousand of miles away.  What faith is that?  The rest of us have to depend on the Church.  I'd rather lean on its crutches rather than walk on my two good legs down the broad road through the wide gate.

If it is an offering, I'd question

but God doesn't
what type of offering God wants more -  Incense or "that which you do unto the least of all men, you do unto me".
""Leave her alone. Why criticize her for doing such a good thing to Me?  The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have Me."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #148 on: October 20, 2011, 01:39:39 AM »
So the photo you posted of the incense though it be mystical has nothing to do with the suffering for Christ, Spreading his message, or helping others be charitable.  It has to deal with an old man running through clouds of incense amongst his congregations and make believe beam through window icons representing saints, Christ, and God.   It's a crutch.
If you want people to take you seriously, show more respect for their point of view. Using such invective against traditions with which you disagree shows that you're here only to hear yourself pontificate and to troll. This forum doesn't exist to be your personal soap box.

Also just FYI, you may actually want to know something about the anabaptists before you bash all their points.  I hate to break it to you, but I've never met a more wholesome group, with good children, and respectful people.   Their fruits have far exceeded Eastern Orthodoxy in this century and their divorce rate is over 14% lower.  "You will know them by their fruits".
Why are you bringing up the Anabaptists again? Can't you bring this up on those threads you have already devoted to the subject? Why do you need to bring it up here?

So tell me if Eastern Orthodoxy is absolutely correct, then why do the members have such a worse divorce rate on their sacrament?
You think we've forgotten all the discussions we've had on this "fact" already? The thing about the Internet is that we have a complete record of everything you've ever said here. There is no forgetting.

Also if you do read and/or speak Yeshua's native tongue, then you are purposely deviating the name of our God.
You've already started a number of threads to advance this thesis. Could you at least reserve your arguments in favor of the name Yeshua for those threads you've already devoted to the subject?

Sorry I thought this forum was called "free for all".   I was on "free for all" under "religious topics".  Not trying to troll at all or have a personal soap box.   I hope I have not conveyed myself that way.

The "fact" is true. http://www.helleniccomserve.com/divorceperspective.html http://www.examiner.com/frugal-living-in-national/amish-wealth
You are trying to squeeze orange juice out of apples, something that may have become apparent to you if you had read both articles and comprehended them, particularly the hellenic communication service.  The 15% rate is more accurate as to the divorces in Greece, where such things are in the purview of the Church and hence the existence of "civil divorce" doesn't skew the data by leaving out those who do not get recognition of their divorce by the Church.  On the other hand, it is skewed in that someone who was baptized Orthodox and wasn't back since except for his wedding is counted as Orthodox as much as someone who prays the Hours every day and has never missed a Sunday or Feast day.  The Amish (and evidently, that is what you mean by "Anabaptist", though I'd love to see them make a distinction between themselves and the Baptists (who have over 30% divorce rate)) are already skewed, in that 15% of their numbers (those who do not take up the Ordung) leave and are not counted Amish, although corresponding Orthodox would be still conisdered Orthodox, just not good/practicing ones.  Then the social controls of a small community of 40 or so families is not replicatable for a nation of 10 million or so, even in the most totalitarian of regimes, and the practice of shunning.  Most Amish divorcees I understand are shunned, and so wouldn't show up in the statistics, not being Amish any more, whereas although almost all Orthodox divorcees are under excommunication for at least a year, they are still considered Orthodox.  IOW, you judge the Amish fruits by only cherry picking the fruit, and ignoring all that fruit which has fallen off the tree.

Come on he baited me and you know it.   He argued that he knew much about the native language and called me "JesusisIAM" just to rub it in my face.    The fact is he was twisting the name of God on purpose to make a point to get under my skin.   It's "tidbits" of attacks, such as you calling the name of God incarnate a "thesis" that I feel obligated to defend the native name of our savior.
although you are utterly unqualified to do so.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2011, 12:09:07 PM »
Christ founded the Church, not an almshouse.  Come to think of it, does JESUS ever feed the poor in the Gospel? We see Him worshipping in the Temple and Synagogue all the time.

The 5,000
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #150 on: October 20, 2011, 12:35:59 PM »
Christ founded the Church, not an almshouse.  Come to think of it, does JESUS ever feed the poor in the Gospel? We see Him worshipping in the Temple and Synagogue all the time.

The 5,000
there is no indication that they (or the 4,000) were poor. Just improvident.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #151 on: October 20, 2011, 01:08:22 PM »
Christ founded the Church, not an almshouse.  Come to think of it, does JESUS ever feed the poor in the Gospel? We see Him worshipping in the Temple and Synagogue all the time.

The 5,000
there is no indication that they (or the 4,000) were poor. Just improvident.

True enough.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
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Offline xariskai

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #152 on: October 20, 2011, 07:16:33 PM »


do you think God wants incense more or your charity, love, and forgiveness to one another?
I responded to this at considerable length and received no reply whatsoever only to see that you simply repeated the same question again.

Alfred Peterson use to dodge responses like you at least seem to (whether intentionally or unintentionally). If there is a reason you are skipping my response to you might at least explain why that is instead of... well... just nothing. So I will respectfully ask for your response again. Neither did you respond to my response to your remarks about "Yeshua" so I will provide that for you again as well.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Saying "Jesus" is erroneous.  His name was Yeshua.
Romans 6:23:
τὰ γὰρ ὀψώνια τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, τὸ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

Was the apostle Paul in error when translated rather than transliterated His name as Ἰησοῦς in various epistles in your view? These epistles were originally penned in Koine Greek, wouldn't you agree?

Can you tell us when the position you defend -that saying anything other than Yeshua is erroneous- is seen first explicitly affirmed historically? It seems to me that anyone holding your position would have to reject what they find in most of the New Testament.

What is your view of the usage of incense in the OT?

Had you lived in OT times, would you have similarly argued its usage be abolished in the Tabernacle if the pragmatic purpose of it was not evident to you?

Had it been you instead of Abraham who God asked to be circumcised with all your household, would you have demanded God explain how this helps you to believe in Him more? (Abraham already believed in God at the time He required Abraham to be circumcised). Was Abraham a more charitable or forgiving person after he was circumcised? Can you tell us exactly what the point of demanding Abraham, his household, and his progeny be circumcised was? Or do you think this was just a man-made command, and if so, why would Abraham have wanted to invent the command to circumcise himself and every male in his household so badly?

Does God have to meet your practical standards to be followed? Who then is really lord in your life, you or God?

Can you provide a scripture reference for your principle "do only what helps God or helps you do something" to allay our suspicions that it is arbitrary on your part, a mere product of your own individual imagination?


Meanwhile, nice Dodge.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 07:34:42 PM by xariskai »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #153 on: October 20, 2011, 08:00:23 PM »
I do not understand this liturgical minimalism. Are you a "four bare walls and a sermon" type, Yeshuaisiam? This thread is odd. "Does incense help God?" I don't know. Is He the one who needs help?  ???

I can't burn incense in my apartment because it's such close quarters (I would not want complaining neighbors, let alone to set off the building's sprinkler system), but when I pray I do light these three-wick candles I found at the local grocery store, and gather the few icons I have around them (can't nail stuff to the walls, either). Maybe it's a poor substitute, but it's the best that I can do right now to create an atmosphere that is helpful to turning my mind to prayer and worship of God. Orthodox Christianity is meant to engage the senses, is it not? We do not believe that such things are useless, and in my own little catechumen world they've proven quite helpful. I can only assume it will be more so as my understanding is deepened (God willing), as I know that if anyone were to tell the priest at the Coptic church that I attend not to burn incense because it doesn't help God, he'd probably be very confused.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #154 on: November 06, 2011, 01:31:32 AM »
I am confused by many of these answers.

First, I have been referenced like Judas because he asked if "the nard should be sold and given to the poor".  That was a different circumstance as I stated in an earlier post.  The nard was used as an anointment to the feet and was allowed because as he stated "The poor you will always have, but you will not always have me".   

This was put up as if I was speaking of incense as Judas to the nard.  Complete distortion.  Read what he said "you will not always have me".  He allowed it because he was going to be crucified.  There are times in life when special things can be done for people.  This is a far cry from what I am saying.   Seeing Christianity in feeding the poor seems more valid than incense to crutch a man's faith, because just about everybody says "It's really for us".   Just read the thread.

If you read above I've had many attacks on this subject.  Why?  What is it about smelling something that you need to complete your faith?  Is it a crutch that blinds you to your weakness?  Is it a placebo, that is "sense propaganda" that is being used as a stimulant for "something holy"?

Could it be dangerous because through prayer while using incense you were conditioning yourself to a delusional sense of faith that otherwise would have not existed without the incense?  Is your faith just as strong in a cess pool, or a sewage tank?  Could you pray just as well and devoutly if stuck in a great fish, in the depths, stinking and dark?  (memories of presanctified liturgy "Out of they depths I cry unto the lord" quoting Jonah & Psalms, except it was full of incense, pretty candles, and icons - yet I would hardly call a setting like that "depths")

If not, wouldn't that be faithfully dangerous to feel "satisfied" or "completed" in faith and prayer using incense as a "stimulant" for that feeling?

If you had your head buried in the sand (like the ostrich photo) would you be able to pray as strongly and faithfully without incense?   If that brick fell on your head would you have as devout faith & prayer without incense?

I know its a lot easier to poke fun at me rather than , but this is a serious faith matter if you must use incense to reach the intensity of faith & prayer that you want to give to God don't you think?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #155 on: November 06, 2011, 01:31:32 AM »
Quote
although offerings are kind of ironic in logic (he created it, its his, and you give it back when he could make infinite more like it)

You staunchly defend the Eucharist, yet you dismiss incense. What does an Orthodox priest pray as he raises the chalice at the Anaphora? Your own of Your own offering we offer You, on behalf of all and for all. God made the incense which we burn in His honor, He also made the bread and wine used in the Eucharist.

You can't have it both ways.



*BUMP*
 

The Orthodox Eucharist believes that the body & blood are in the bread and wine.  That doesn't mean every last thing that is said in all the forms of worship follow the traditions of Early Christians, including those things said about incense.  Besides many of the Orthodox Christians here said they use it for themselves to "get them in the mood" for prayer.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #156 on: November 06, 2011, 01:31:32 AM »
Why do you live in the world of mutual exclusives?

I say this in kindness:

That boy in the photo sitting in shambles starving, while the priests pray for God's help in ornateness, it creates a horrendous world in irony.
Only in your imagination.

I wonder if his undergarments say "made in India".
More likely "made in Egypt." It's the best cotton in the world, although the real good stuff is exported, and the other grades left for the Egyptians who grow it.


I'm the type of person who thinks I'm a hypocrite to sit in a church praying for God's help in protection and well being in an outfit made in sweatshops that have exploited people.   The thought of that is too extreme for many to accept.
be more choosey where you shop then.  But don't project your self flagellation on us.

btw, I can guarentee that Abuunaa's undergarments were not made in a sweat shop.  That stuff is sent your way in Texas.  They don't waste sweat for those in the third world.

So I have gotten to the point where I have exclusives and a lot of them.
So it has been a progressive madness.  I see.

If incense is very much needed for faith to exist, then it is a crutch and could possibly lead people to falsely believe they have more faith than they do.
More than you do.  You think you have all the answers, all by yourself, two thousand years later and thousand of miles away.  What faith is that?  The rest of us have to depend on the Church.  I'd rather lean on its crutches rather than walk on my two good legs down the broad road through the wide gate.

If it is an offering, I'd question

but God doesn't
what type of offering God wants more -  Incense or "that which you do unto the least of all men, you do unto me".
""Leave her alone. Why criticize her for doing such a good thing to Me?  The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have Me."

That's right do nice things for people on special occasions, as he was speaking closely to his crucifixion.   So you are using this example to dodge what you believe God would rather see?   Charity to starving kids, or clergy using incense to icons.   At least when the nard was applied, it was to an actual person rather than a piece of wood.   Of course, you find irony in what I'm saying.... Perhaps ask the child who he thinks is right.  As a parent, I don't even have to contemplate what is real Christianity when I look at those two photos.   
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #157 on: November 06, 2011, 01:31:32 AM »
So the photo you posted of the incense though it be mystical has nothing to do with the suffering for Christ, Spreading his message, or helping others be charitable.  It has to deal with an old man running through clouds of incense amongst his congregations and make believe beam through window icons representing saints, Christ, and God.   It's a crutch.
If you want people to take you seriously, show more respect for their point of view. Using such invective against traditions with which you disagree shows that you're here only to hear yourself pontificate and to troll. This forum doesn't exist to be your personal soap box.

Also just FYI, you may actually want to know something about the anabaptists before you bash all their points.  I hate to break it to you, but I've never met a more wholesome group, with good children, and respectful people.   Their fruits have far exceeded Eastern Orthodoxy in this century and their divorce rate is over 14% lower.  "You will know them by their fruits".
Why are you bringing up the Anabaptists again? Can't you bring this up on those threads you have already devoted to the subject? Why do you need to bring it up here?

So tell me if Eastern Orthodoxy is absolutely correct, then why do the members have such a worse divorce rate on their sacrament?
You think we've forgotten all the discussions we've had on this "fact" already? The thing about the Internet is that we have a complete record of everything you've ever said here. There is no forgetting.

Also if you do read and/or speak Yeshua's native tongue, then you are purposely deviating the name of our God.
You've already started a number of threads to advance this thesis. Could you at least reserve your arguments in favor of the name Yeshua for those threads you've already devoted to the subject?

Sorry I thought this forum was called "free for all".   I was on "free for all" under "religious topics".  Not trying to troll at all or have a personal soap box.   I hope I have not conveyed myself that way.

The "fact" is true. http://www.helleniccomserve.com/divorceperspective.html http://www.examiner.com/frugal-living-in-national/amish-wealth
You are trying to squeeze orange juice out of apples, something that may have become apparent to you if you had read both articles and comprehended them, particularly the hellenic communication service.  The 15% rate is more accurate as to the divorces in Greece, where such things are in the purview of the Church and hence the existence of "civil divorce" doesn't skew the data by leaving out those who do not get recognition of their divorce by the Church.  On the other hand, it is skewed in that someone who was baptized Orthodox and wasn't back since except for his wedding is counted as Orthodox as much as someone who prays the Hours every day and has never missed a Sunday or Feast day.  The Amish (and evidently, that is what you mean by "Anabaptist", though I'd love to see them make a distinction between themselves and the Baptists (who have over 30% divorce rate)) are already skewed, in that 15% of their numbers (those who do not take up the Ordung) leave and are not counted Amish, although corresponding Orthodox would be still conisdered Orthodox, just not good/practicing ones.  Then the social controls of a small community of 40 or so families is not replicatable for a nation of 10 million or so, even in the most totalitarian of regimes, and the practice of shunning.  Most Amish divorcees I understand are shunned, and so wouldn't show up in the statistics, not being Amish any more, whereas although almost all Orthodox divorcees are under excommunication for at least a year, they are still considered Orthodox.  IOW, you judge the Amish fruits by only cherry picking the fruit, and ignoring all that fruit which has fallen off the tree.

Come on he baited me and you know it.   He argued that he knew much about the native language and called me "JesusisIAM" just to rub it in my face.    The fact is he was twisting the name of God on purpose to make a point to get under my skin.   It's "tidbits" of attacks, such as you calling the name of God incarnate a "thesis" that I feel obligated to defend the native name of our savior.
although you are utterly unqualified to do so.

So you know
1) How the statistic was gathered for this, in which you are incorrect.
2) You know who I am, my education, my background, and what I am qualified to answer.

Assuming things doesn't prove, no matter how long a post is.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #158 on: November 06, 2011, 01:31:32 AM »
Christ founded the Church, not an almshouse.  Come to think of it, does JESUS ever feed the poor in the Gospel? We see Him worshipping in the Temple and Synagogue all the time.
Yeshua didn't baptize either, but we still do that.

Quote
The 5,000
Quote
there is no indication that they (or the 4,000) were poor. Just improvident.

If you feel this way, I guess don't feed starving people, buy some more incense, and you can find out later if that's what God wanted.  As for me, it resonates that God would want me to:

"do unto others as I would have them to do me, as this sums up the law of the prophets"
"that which you do unto the least of all people you do unto me"
"sell your possessions and give the money to the poor" - to the rich man
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #159 on: November 06, 2011, 01:55:17 AM »
I am confused by many of these answers.

...

If you read above I've had many attacks on this subject.  Why?  What is it about smelling something that you need to complete your faith?  Is it a crutch that blinds you to your weakness?
No. More like a crutch to help us in our weakness. The thing is, though, that it's better for us to know that we're weak and that we need crutches than it is for you to fool yourself into believing you're strong.

Is it a placebo, that is "sense propaganda" that is being used as a stimulant for "something holy"?
And if it is, why is that a bad thing?

Could it be dangerous because through prayer while using incense you were conditioning yourself to a delusional sense of faith that otherwise would have not existed without the incense?
Is it bad that it actually clears our senses to help us see how weak our faith really is? I would rather have this than a delusional faith that says you're so strong and mature that you don't need incense. Those of real faith are honest with themselves.

Is your faith just as strong in a cess pool, or a sewage tank?  Could you pray just as well and devoutly if stuck in a great fish, in the depths, stinking and dark?
I don't know. Could you?

If not, wouldn't that be faithfully dangerous to feel "satisfied" or "completed" in faith and prayer using incense as a "stimulant" for that feeling?
Wouldn't it be more dangerous to trick yourself into thinking you have a strong faith because you "don't" need incense?

If you had your head buried in the sand (like the ostrich photo) would you be able to pray as strongly and faithfully without incense?   If that brick fell on your head would you have as devout faith & prayer without incense?
I don't know. Would you?

I know its a lot easier to poke fun at me rather than , but this is a serious faith matter if you must use incense to reach the intensity of faith & prayer that you want to give to God don't you think?
I suppose it's no more serious than the thought that you must deny yourself incense to reach the intensity of faith and prayer you want to give to God.

BTW, what about the imagery in Revelation of incense being offered up to God even in heaven? If those in heaven need incense to draw closer to God, how much more so do we on earth need that incense?
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Offline biro

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #160 on: November 06, 2011, 08:35:24 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
If you feel this way, I guess don't feed starving people, buy some more incense, and you can find out later if that's what God wanted.

Are you just trying to be offensive here? You can't be unaware of the fact that Orthodox people do indeed give to the poor, and go to church where there's incense. They do both. Please stop with the false dichotomy. 

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #161 on: November 06, 2011, 08:44:22 AM »
So the photo you posted of the incense though it be mystical has nothing to do with the suffering for Christ, Spreading his message, or helping others be charitable.  It has to deal with an old man running through clouds of incense amongst his congregations and make believe beam through window icons representing saints, Christ, and God.   It's a crutch.
If you want people to take you seriously, show more respect for their point of view. Using such invective against traditions with which you disagree shows that you're here only to hear yourself pontificate and to troll. This forum doesn't exist to be your personal soap box.

Also just FYI, you may actually want to know something about the anabaptists before you bash all their points.  I hate to break it to you, but I've never met a more wholesome group, with good children, and respectful people.   Their fruits have far exceeded Eastern Orthodoxy in this century and their divorce rate is over 14% lower.  "You will know them by their fruits".
Why are you bringing up the Anabaptists again? Can't you bring this up on those threads you have already devoted to the subject? Why do you need to bring it up here?

So tell me if Eastern Orthodoxy is absolutely correct, then why do the members have such a worse divorce rate on their sacrament?
You think we've forgotten all the discussions we've had on this "fact" already? The thing about the Internet is that we have a complete record of everything you've ever said here. There is no forgetting.

Also if you do read and/or speak Yeshua's native tongue, then you are purposely deviating the name of our God.
You've already started a number of threads to advance this thesis. Could you at least reserve your arguments in favor of the name Yeshua for those threads you've already devoted to the subject?

Sorry I thought this forum was called "free for all".   I was on "free for all" under "religious topics".  Not trying to troll at all or have a personal soap box.   I hope I have not conveyed myself that way.

The "fact" is true. http://www.helleniccomserve.com/divorceperspective.html http://www.examiner.com/frugal-living-in-national/amish-wealth
You are trying to squeeze orange juice out of apples, something that may have become apparent to you if you had read both articles and comprehended them, particularly the hellenic communication service.  The 15% rate is more accurate as to the divorces in Greece, where such things are in the purview of the Church and hence the existence of "civil divorce" doesn't skew the data by leaving out those who do not get recognition of their divorce by the Church.  On the other hand, it is skewed in that someone who was baptized Orthodox and wasn't back since except for his wedding is counted as Orthodox as much as someone who prays the Hours every day and has never missed a Sunday or Feast day.  The Amish (and evidently, that is what you mean by "Anabaptist", though I'd love to see them make a distinction between themselves and the Baptists (who have over 30% divorce rate)) are already skewed, in that 15% of their numbers (those who do not take up the Ordung) leave and are not counted Amish, although corresponding Orthodox would be still conisdered Orthodox, just not good/practicing ones.  Then the social controls of a small community of 40 or so families is not replicatable for a nation of 10 million or so, even in the most totalitarian of regimes, and the practice of shunning.  Most Amish divorcees I understand are shunned, and so wouldn't show up in the statistics, not being Amish any more, whereas although almost all Orthodox divorcees are under excommunication for at least a year, they are still considered Orthodox.  IOW, you judge the Amish fruits by only cherry picking the fruit, and ignoring all that fruit which has fallen off the tree.

Come on he baited me and you know it.   He argued that he knew much about the native language and called me "JesusisIAM" just to rub it in my face.    The fact is he was twisting the name of God on purpose to make a point to get under my skin.   It's "tidbits" of attacks, such as you calling the name of God incarnate a "thesis" that I feel obligated to defend the native name of our savior.
although you are utterly unqualified to do so.

So you know
1) How the statistic was gathered for this, in which you are incorrect.
2) You know who I am, my education, my background, and what I am qualified to answer.

Assuming things doesn't prove, no matter how long a post is.
So I'll keep this brief:
1) I only go by what your source says about how the statistic was gathered.  If you are privy contrary information that you are keeping secret, I can't help that.
2) I can only judge by what you post, and you so far have demonstrated no qualifications to answer even elementary questions, as you frequently contradict/ignore known facts.  You assUme you are correct.

Your ignorance of Aramaic being on display, it is an easy call your qualifications for the silly argument of JesusisIamity's issue on Jesus' name.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 08:53:56 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #162 on: November 06, 2011, 08:52:00 AM »
Christ founded the Church, not an almshouse.  Come to think of it, does JESUS ever feed the poor in the Gospel? We see Him worshipping in the Temple and Synagogue all the time.
Yeshua didn't baptize either, but we still do that.
His Apostles baptized under His direct direction. We baptize under their, and His, direction.  I don't know what you do, or who the "we" is that includes you.

Quote
The 5,000
Quote
there is no indication that they (or the 4,000) were poor. Just improvident.

If you feel this way,
Not about feeling.  Just stating facts.

I guess
wrong
don't feed starving people, buy some more incense, and you can find out later if that's what God wanted.
Or I can keep feeding starving people and buying incense like I have been as God wants, and just ignore your silliness.

As for me,
Who cares about you?  Christ I know and Paul I know, but who are you?
it resonates that God would want me to:
That's called an echo.  I happens when someone just likes the sound of his own voice and resonates in a head that has nothing in it to stop it bouncing around.

"do unto others as I would have them to do me, as this sums up the law of the prophets"
"that which you do unto the least of all people you do unto me"
"sell your possessions and give the money to the poor" - to the rich man
The woman with nard did unto Him, and He praised her for it, saying that it would be remembered where ever the Gospel would be preached. Since you seem not to have heard that, I can only conclude that you have not heard the Gospel.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #163 on: November 06, 2011, 09:16:04 AM »
I am confused by many of these answers.
And it shows.  You can't handle the Truth.

First, I have been referenced like Judas because he asked if "the nard should be sold and given to the poor".  That was a different circumstance as I stated in an earlier post.  The nard was used as an anointment to the feet and was allowed because as he stated "The poor you will always have, but you will not always have me".
 
Distinction without a difference.  "And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil."  It wasn't just allowed, it was praised.

This was put up as if I was speaking of incense as Judas to the nard.  Complete distortion.
 
yes, your posts are.

Read what he said "you will not always have me".  He allowed it because he was going to be crucified.
 
"Assuredly I tell you, whereever the Gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will be told as a memorial to her."

There are times in life when special things can be done for people.  This is a far cry from what I am saying.
   
Oh, so you feel qualified to determine the times and seasons of "special things."  You wouldn't mind showing some credentials, would you?

Seeing Christianity in feeding the poor seems more valid than incense to crutch a man's faith,
your false dichtonomy is invalid.  Christ and every generation of Christians since His earthly ministry had no problem doing both.  If you had any knowledge of or connection to early Christianity, you would know that.

because just about everybody says "It's really for us".   Just read the thread.
Just read the Gospel and the Fathers.

Does donation to charity for a tax write off count?

If you read above I've had many attacks on this subject.  Why?  What is it about smelling something that you need to complete your faith?  Is it a crutch that blinds you to your weakness?  Is it a placebo, that is "sense propaganda" that is being used as a stimulant for "something holy"?
Funny how you, who claim to be strong, whine about "attacks" by those who admit that they are weak.  Better to know you need a crutch than trying to run when you can barely crawl.

Could it be dangerous because through prayer while using incense you were conditioning yourself to a delusional sense of faith that otherwise would have not existed without the incense?  Is your faith just as strong in a cess pool, or a sewage tank?  Could you pray just as well and devoutly if stuck in a great fish, in the depths, stinking and dark?  (memories of presanctified liturgy "Out of they depths I cry unto the lord" quoting Jonah & Psalms, except it was full of incense, pretty candles, and icons - yet I would hardly call a setting like that "depths")
I'm afraid that you have demonstrated your expertise in delusion.  So, how often do you pray in fish, and how long have you been doing so?

If not, wouldn't that be faithfully dangerous to feel "satisfied" or "completed" in faith and prayer using incense as a "stimulant" for that feeling?
No.

If you had your head buried in the sand (like the ostrich photo) would you be able to pray as strongly and faithfully without incense?   If that brick fell on your head would you have as devout faith & prayer without incense?
So, you are a brick header.  Is that like snake handlers?


I know its a lot easier to poke fun at me rather than , but this is a serious faith matter
no, it is not, and you just make yourself look more ridiculous with such silly arguments.
if you must use incense to reach the intensity of faith & prayer that you want to give to God don't you think?
As someone pointed out, they seem to need it in heaven, if St. John is to be believed.  I'll take his word over yours any day.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #164 on: November 06, 2011, 09:24:10 AM »
That's right do nice things for people on special occasions, as he was speaking closely to his crucifixion.   So you are using this example to dodge what you believe God would rather see?
You are the one with the Dodge dealership. Not me.
Charity to starving kids, or clergy using incense to icons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichtomy
educate yourself.
At least when the nard was applied, it was to an actual person rather than a piece of wood.
and that makes a difference how?
Of course, you find irony in what I'm saying....

no, just ignorance and arrogance.
Perhaps ask the child who he thinks is right.
Why not ask Mother Theresa to solve your false dilema?
As a parent, I don't even have to contemplate what is real Christianity when I look at those two photos.  
Those aren't the two photos on point.  These are:
This isn't the image God has of a worshipper:

it is this

« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 09:25:09 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #165 on: November 06, 2011, 11:24:19 AM »
Christ founded the Church, not an almshouse.  Come to think of it, does JESUS ever feed the poor in the Gospel? We see Him worshipping in the Temple and Synagogue all the time.
Yeshua didn't baptize either, but we still do that.

Quote
The 5,000
Quote
there is no indication that they (or the 4,000) were poor. Just improvident.

If you feel this way, I guess don't feed starving people, buy some more incense, and you can find out later if that's what God wanted.  As for me, it resonates that God would want me to:

"do unto others as I would have them to do me, as this sums up the law of the prophets"
"that which you do unto the least of all people you do unto me"
"sell your possessions and give the money to the poor" - to the rich man

Come to think of it, what is the record of your Amish friends in charity work?  I know that they are hosptitable folk, but how much feeding of the hungary do they do world wide, or even country wide?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #166 on: November 06, 2011, 01:20:25 PM »
Christ founded the Church, not an almshouse.  Come to think of it, does JESUS ever feed the poor in the Gospel? We see Him worshipping in the Temple and Synagogue all the time.
Yeshua didn't baptize either, but we still do that.

Quote
The 5,000
Quote
there is no indication that they (or the 4,000) were poor. Just improvident.

If you feel this way, I guess don't feed starving people, buy some more incense, and you can find out later if that's what God wanted.  As for me, it resonates that God would want me to:

"do unto others as I would have them to do me, as this sums up the law of the prophets"
"that which you do unto the least of all people you do unto me"
"sell your possessions and give the money to the poor" - to the rich man

Come to think of it, what is the record of your Amish friends in charity work?  I know that they are hosptitable folk, but how much feeding of the hungary do they do world wide, or even country wide?

If you really want to know this, please explore this.  The 3 Mennonite (roughly the same as Amish Anabaptists) churches near my home: 
One of the churches has 3 orphanages in Mexico.
One of the churches has 1 orphanage in Costa Rica.
One of the churches has 1 orphanage in another part of Mexico.
(By "has" I mean fully funds and routinely has a member of the church in attendance to orphanage operation)

Many members of the church adopt into their families extremely disabled children from the local area and out of the country.  When I say many I mean nearly 25% of the congregation.  They will take children off the floors left in decrepit state run orphanages and bring them to their home to be in their families.  Undergoing a lifetime of charity and love to these kids well into adulthood, sometimes requiring full services from feeding to changing their soiled garments.   Many of these families already have 5-7 children, and take on the responsibility to a fully disabled and mentally  handicap child.

They do all of this on their own dollar and never accept any type of government handout or disability checks etc.   

In the local area, there were several floods, and the Mennonite families in the church got together and rebuilt their homes for free as an act of charity within their community.   

They have routine food "drives" along with running full canning operations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpsrSV3s9aQ

I put "drives" in quotes because it's not just an every blue moon act of charity.  It's like an every week thing that is highly focused in their churches.

Then the Hutterites (Anabaptists that practice communal living and share in the same money bag) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KskX6LZYqv8 practice massive forms of charity from massive food distribution to the hungry to visiting and singing at rest homes.

http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/slavgorod_mennonite_orphanage
http://www.beachyam.org/charitable_org.htm
(Plenty more links if you google)

The charity of the Anabaptists is one of the things that I admire because I've never seen anything like it, down to the point of them giving to people their life savings who need it.





I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Babalon

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #167 on: November 17, 2011, 05:07:58 AM »
Perhaps it's been mentioned, perhaps not. I haven't read every post in this thread but in any case,  observe Genesis 2:7-

Quote
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

We can choose a number of ways to interpret this passage, mystical or otherwise.... Yet something in particular always struck me as peculiar about this passage in relation to Incense. Incense has always had a prominent role in religion. All religions.

Something worth noting is the fact that out of the 5 physical senses, it is most commonly our sense of smell that is "felt" before understood by the analytical faculties of the mind. When the molecules in incense smoke reach our nostrils they are transmitted through neuron receptors into a primitive part of the brain that has little to do with conscious thought or will. In a sense, odor's put us in a sort of passenger seat to the aroma itself- which in turn, may evoke several different types of emotions and/or memories depending on the person and odor in question. The staple of the mystical experience has always been the individual's "feeling" of the "Divine", or God. I find incense to be indispensable when it comes these experiences.

Offline xariskai

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #168 on: November 17, 2011, 12:45:41 PM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Could you pray just as well and devoutly if stuck in a great fish, in the depths, stinking and dark?
Yes, but it was not predicted that all the non-Jewish nations would pray in every place in fish vomit. It was, however, predicted by the prophet Malachi regarding future Gentile nations spanning the whole earth the following:

"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations (בַּגֹּויִ֔ם: "Gentiles/non-Jewish nations"), and IN EVERY PLACE ***INCENSE*** IS GOING TO BE OFFERED IN MY NAME, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations" says the LORD of hosts." -Malachi 1:11

If a future continual offering of incense among all the Gentile nations of the earth is predicted by the prophet Malachi, surely it is silly to argue it could not possibly be proper and right, and on no more basis than your own private interpretation of the scriptures and your philosophy of pragmatism ("how does it help God or you") which you are adding to the words of God and which no scripture or tradition ever said was or should be criteriological for what should or should not comprise the praxis of the Christian faith. If you prefer to pray in fish vomit I won't say Christ will not hear you; but your satisfaction with praying in fish vomit does not fulfill the prophecy of the holy prophet Malachi whereas Orthodox worship with incense clearly does. If you wish to pray in the middle of the ocean on a surfboard or in a metal garbage bin without incense I will not say God will not hear your prayer, but neither can I say it is the full picture of what worship was predicted to by among the Gentiles according to Holy Scripture, which is to say the worship you describe is less than the predicted *fullness* the faith would (and therefore should) attain. To the degree our earthly worship approximates the heavenly it will look something like that described by Isaiah when the smoke filled the heavenly Temple, or the Tabernacle with its God-ordained Table of Incense which was patterned after the heavenly Tabernacle.


That's right do nice things for people on special occasions, as he was speaking closely to his crucifixion.   So you are using this example to dodge what you believe God would rather see?
You are the one with the Dodge dealership. Not me.
:laugh:

BTW yeshuaisiam, by current count you have dodged my post for a total count of four times now. For convenience, here it is again:



do you think God wants incense more or your charity, love, and forgiveness to one another?
I responded to this at considerable length and received no reply whatsoever only to see that you simply repeated the same question again.

Alfred Peterson use to dodge responses like you at least seem to (whether intentionally or unintentionally). If there is a reason you are skipping my response to you might at least explain why that is instead of... well... just nothing. So I will respectfully ask for your response again. Neither did you respond to my response to your remarks about "Yeshua" so I will provide that for you again as well.

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Saying "Jesus" is erroneous.  His name was Yeshua.
Romans 6:23:
τὰ γὰρ ὀψώνια τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, τὸ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

Was the apostle Paul in error when translated rather than transliterated His name as Ἰησοῦς in various epistles in your view? These epistles were originally penned in Koine Greek, wouldn't you agree?

Can you tell us when the position you defend -that saying anything other than Yeshua is erroneous- is seen first explicitly affirmed historically? It seems to me that anyone holding your position would have to reject what they find in most of the New Testament.

What is your view of the usage of incense in the OT?

Had you lived in OT times, would you have similarly argued its usage be abolished in the Tabernacle if the pragmatic purpose of it was not evident to you?

Had it been you instead of Abraham who God asked to be circumcised with all your household, would you have demanded God explain how this helps you to believe in Him more? (Abraham already believed in God at the time He required Abraham to be circumcised). Was Abraham a more charitable or forgiving person after he was circumcised? Can you tell us exactly what the point of demanding Abraham, his household, and his progeny be circumcised was? Or do you think this was just a man-made command, and if so, why would Abraham have wanted to invent the command to circumcise himself and every male in his household so badly?

Does God have to meet your practical standards to be followed? Who then is really lord in your life, you or God?

Can you provide a scripture reference for your principle "do only what helps God or helps you do something" to allay our suspicions that it is arbitrary on your part, a mere product of your own individual imagination?


Meanwhile, nice Dodge.


« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 01:12:57 PM by xariskai »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #169 on: November 17, 2011, 12:53:52 PM »
Christ founded the Church, not an almshouse.  Come to think of it, does JESUS ever feed the poor in the Gospel? We see Him worshipping in the Temple and Synagogue all the time.
Yeshua didn't baptize either, but we still do that.

Quote
The 5,000
Quote
there is no indication that they (or the 4,000) were poor. Just improvident.

If you feel this way, I guess don't feed starving people, buy some more incense, and you can find out later if that's what God wanted.  As for me, it resonates that God would want me to:

"do unto others as I would have them to do me, as this sums up the law of the prophets"
"that which you do unto the least of all people you do unto me"
"sell your possessions and give the money to the poor" - to the rich man

Come to think of it, what is the record of your Amish friends in charity work?  I know that they are hosptitable folk, but how much feeding of the hungary do they do world wide, or even country wide?

If you really want to know this, please explore this.  The 3 Mennonite (roughly the same as Amish Anabaptists) churches near my home: 
One of the churches has 3 orphanages in Mexico.
One of the churches has 1 orphanage in Costa Rica.
One of the churches has 1 orphanage in another part of Mexico.
(By "has" I mean fully funds and routinely has a member of the church in attendance to orphanage operation)

Many members of the church adopt into their families extremely disabled children from the local area and out of the country.  When I say many I mean nearly 25% of the congregation.  They will take children off the floors left in decrepit state run orphanages and bring them to their home to be in their families.  Undergoing a lifetime of charity and love to these kids well into adulthood, sometimes requiring full services from feeding to changing their soiled garments.   Many of these families already have 5-7 children, and take on the responsibility to a fully disabled and mentally  handicap child.

They do all of this on their own dollar and never accept any type of government handout or disability checks etc.   

In the local area, there were several floods, and the Mennonite families in the church got together and rebuilt their homes for free as an act of charity within their community.   

They have routine food "drives" along with running full canning operations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpsrSV3s9aQ

I put "drives" in quotes because it's not just an every blue moon act of charity.  It's like an every week thing that is highly focused in their churches.

Then the Hutterites (Anabaptists that practice communal living and share in the same money bag) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KskX6LZYqv8 practice massive forms of charity from massive food distribution to the hungry to visiting and singing at rest homes.

http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/slavgorod_mennonite_orphanage
http://www.beachyam.org/charitable_org.htm
(Plenty more links if you google)

The charity of the Anabaptists is one of the things that I admire because I've never seen anything like it, down to the point of them giving to people their life savings who need it.
Well, very nice. But you have seen it: you're the one who posted the picture of Mother Theresa, remember?

All of your Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites etc. add up to about 2 million worldwide.  How many are in the Vatican's religious orders like Mother Theresa?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline davdfoge

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Re: Does incense help God, you, or really do anything?
« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2012, 02:48:41 AM »
I think different people have different opinions, many people believe that the fragrance from the incense take your prayer to the God, incense is traditionally used by many religious people and will be used forever. For me the incense is very useful, at-least it purifies the air giving great fragrance which helps me focus in my prayer and fell relaxed.  :)
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