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Author Topic: Article re "morning after pill"  (Read 3888 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 11, 2011, 04:07:08 AM »

There is so much disturbing about this article (appearing in a capital city broadsheet) that I do not even know where to begin:

"Contraceptive pills can be missed, condoms can occasionally slip off or tear and unprotected sex sometimes just happens. Thankfully, women who want to avoid an unintended pregnancy have the option of using emergency contraception. Despite it having been available since 2004 at the local chemist, a recent survey found that while almost all women know about emergency contraception, many don't realise that there is no need to get a prescription first. In my role as the Medical Director at Family Planning NSW, almost every day I see how much misinformation and mythology exists about this useful and safe medication."

Read more at:

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/contraception-the-morning-after-20111010-1lh7s.html
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2011, 04:58:06 AM »

The morning after pill is extremely effective, in fact it saved me from 18 years worth of child support.

As far as the 96 hour claim? I dunno, I wouldn't even wait that long.

My girlfriend gets those free at PPH, they are about 50 dollars a box. Not cheap but considering the ramifications, very.

EDIT: Not sure what kind of discussion you want to have...
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 04:58:36 AM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2011, 05:01:20 AM »

It's the casual tone of the article that was most upsetting.

"No harm in taking it more than once a month"?
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2011, 05:03:25 AM »

The tone of the comments was also pretty perturbing.
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2011, 05:11:55 AM »

I think I know where you are going with this.

It's kind of advertising sex it up as much as you like and taking the emergency pill a couple times a month isn't a problem.

Abortion, different birth control methods, etc. this is the age to have alot of sex with no consequences.
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2011, 05:16:39 AM »

I think I know where you are going with this.

It's kind of advertising sex it up as much as you like and taking the emergency pill a couple times a month isn't a problem.

Abortion, different birth control methods, etc. this is the age to have alot of sex with no consequences.

Yeah, it is just the whole casual attitude to the whole thing that blows my mind. Is this really appropriate coverage for a capital city broadsheet?

I think a credible slippery-slope argument exists here.
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2011, 05:23:29 AM »

I don't know a slippery slope can be used here, I'm not seeing one.

The only positive with this pill is if you are using contraception and something goes wrong, atleast there is a backup for unwanted pregnancy. Same goes for no protection.

Would you rather have a baby grow up from a one night stander (which I'm sure there is a stastic saying 95% of the partners wont get in a lasting relationship) or prevent that?

Then we get into an argument of not having sex and blah blah blah.
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2011, 05:32:28 AM »

Unfortunately, abortion itself has become almost as casual.

As for these pills, many women are walking around with scarred souls because they have unintentionally aborted their babies from the use of birth control pills. The pill doesn't always prevent pregnancy. Sometimes conception occurs and the effects of the pill prevent the nascent embryo from attaching to the uteran wall, causing an effective abortion.

Satan has materfully woven his anti-life lies into the consciousness of our culture, and may Christians have swallowed it whole.


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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2011, 05:39:12 AM »

I don't know a slippery slope can be used here, I'm not seeing one.

The only positive with this pill is if you are using contraception and something goes wrong, atleast there is a backup for unwanted pregnancy. Same goes for no protection.

Would you rather have a baby grow up from a one night stander (which I'm sure there is a stastic saying 95% of the partners wont get in a lasting relationship) or prevent that?

Then we get into an argument of not having sex and blah blah blah.

People are having casual sex a lot, whether we accept that fact or not. I agree, it's a case of there being a back up for unwanted pregnancy but it's sad as it's never as simple as that -- just take this pill.
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 05:43:55 AM »

It's funny you mention that, if there was no contraception I'd still be a virgin.
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 06:24:24 AM »

I think I know where you are going with this.

It's kind of advertising sex it up as much as you like and taking the emergency pill a couple times a month isn't a problem.

Abortion, different birth control methods, etc. this is the age to have alot of sex with no consequences.

Yeah, it is just the whole casual attitude to the whole thing that blows my mind. Is this really appropriate coverage for a capital city broadsheet?

I think a credible slippery-slope argument exists here.
I think if there is a slippery slope, we've already gone down it. An article like that is common in US newspapers.
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 06:26:34 AM »

I think I know where you are going with this.

It's kind of advertising sex it up as much as you like and taking the emergency pill a couple times a month isn't a problem.

Abortion, different birth control methods, etc. this is the age to have alot of sex with no consequences.

Yeah, it is just the whole casual attitude to the whole thing that blows my mind. Is this really appropriate coverage for a capital city broadsheet?

I think a credible slippery-slope argument exists here.
I think if there is a slippery slope, we've already gone down it. An article like that is common in US newspapers.

You know how sometimes Newspapers have free stuff in them like CD's or whatever? I'd get a good chuckle over seeing a morning after pill in there.
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2011, 07:46:29 AM »

The morning after pill is extremely effective, in fact it saved me from 18 years worth of child support.

As far as the 96 hour claim? I dunno, I wouldn't even wait that long.

My girlfriend gets those free at PPH, they are about 50 dollars a box. Not cheap but considering the ramifications, very.

EDIT: Not sure what kind of discussion you want to have...
Like Akimori, I am shocked at how "casual" the approaches are. Brah, if you're going to engage in sexual intercourse, you're going to have to expect that there is a chance for a child. I'm sorry, there's no ifs ands or buts about that. I have a lot of hard time digging up sympathy for someone using this argument. Guess what? Don't have sex if you're so scared about paying child support. That is a big time responsibility.

I don't want to go into this on the board, but as I'm sure everyone knows, there are alternative routes in our society to deal with our sexual urges (not Church approved, though, but talking about society at large) that drastically reduce or render the possibility of pregnancy nil. And I'm not talking about birth control.

It's this "I need to have sex, whenever, wherever, and I've got a whole toolkit of emergency items at my disposal, so I'll keep doing it" attitude that drives me up a wall. I think that if we ever want to make some headway on the abortion problem, we need to tackle the issue of sex, the peer pressure to have sex at an early age, and basically manning up and realizing HOW BIG of a deal it is.

Forget about spiritually at this moment. The minute you first do it, you are going down a path that you need to accept, and most people are not old enough or mature enough to handle the consequences of a pregnancy.

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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2011, 10:54:55 AM »

I don't know a slippery slope can be used here, I'm not seeing one.

The only positive with this pill is if you are using contraception and something goes wrong, atleast there is a backup for unwanted pregnancy. Same goes for no protection.

Would you rather have a baby grow up from a one night stander (which I'm sure there is a stastic saying 95% of the partners wont get in a lasting relationship) or prevent that?

Then we get into an argument of not having sex and blah blah blah.

If you were the child of a one night stand would you want to grow up?

Abortion is simply a bully system of the bigger tiger killing the baby male cubs.  Just because you don't want to take responsibility of how God even in sin will still bless you, does not mean that you break another commandment of murder.
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2011, 11:20:18 AM »

Would you rather have a baby grow up from a one night stander (which I'm sure there is a stastic saying 95% of the partners wont get in a lasting relationship) or prevent that?

It sounds like you support this. Do I understand you correctly?
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« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2011, 11:24:04 AM »

I don't know a slippery slope can be used here, I'm not seeing one.

The only positive with this pill is if you are using contraception and something goes wrong, atleast there is a backup for unwanted pregnancy. Same goes for no protection.

Would you rather have a baby grow up from a one night stander (which I'm sure there is a stastic saying 95% of the partners wont get in a lasting relationship) or prevent that?

Then we get into an argument of not having sex and blah blah blah.

If you were the child of a one night stand would you want to grow up?
 
If I were the child of a one night stand would I want to grow up? Umm, yeah. The circumstances of your conception does not change your worth. Rape babies, one night stands, etc dont change anything. it is God's life to give to someone and His decision on how you will receive it. It is not up to anyone else to snuff that life out no matter the circumstances.

morning after pill = murder in my opinion. This is my personal belief and Im not judging others. All I can say is that if my wife used it, I would look at her as if she killed my child.

PP
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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2011, 11:55:25 AM »

I don't know a slippery slope can be used here, I'm not seeing one.

The only positive with this pill is if you are using contraception and something goes wrong, atleast there is a backup for unwanted pregnancy. Same goes for no protection.

Would you rather have a baby grow up from a one night stander (which I'm sure there is a stastic saying 95% of the partners wont get in a lasting relationship) or prevent that?

Then we get into an argument of not having sex and blah blah blah.

If you were the child of a one night stand would you want to grow up?
 
If I were the child of a one night stand would I want to grow up? Umm, yeah. The circumstances of your conception does not change your worth. Rape babies, one night stands, etc dont change anything. it is God's life to give to someone and His decision on how you will receive it. It is not up to anyone else to snuff that life out no matter the circumstances.

morning after pill = murder in my opinion. This is my personal belief and Im not judging others. All I can say is that if my wife used it, I would look at her as if she killed my child.
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I absolutely share your opinion.  Of course we wouldn't have married the women that we did if they would even consider something like that. 
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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2011, 12:09:28 PM »

I don't know a slippery slope can be used here, I'm not seeing one.

The only positive with this pill is if you are using contraception and something goes wrong, atleast there is a backup for unwanted pregnancy. Same goes for no protection.

Would you rather have a baby grow up from a one night stander (which I'm sure there is a stastic saying 95% of the partners wont get in a lasting relationship) or prevent that?

Then we get into an argument of not having sex and blah blah blah.

If you were the child of a one night stand would you want to grow up?
 
If I were the child of a one night stand would I want to grow up? Umm, yeah. The circumstances of your conception does not change your worth. Rape babies, one night stands, etc dont change anything. it is God's life to give to someone and His decision on how you will receive it. It is not up to anyone else to snuff that life out no matter the circumstances.

morning after pill = murder in my opinion. This is my personal belief and Im not judging others. All I can say is that if my wife used it, I would look at her as if she killed my child.

PP

I dont know too much about anatomy and stuff, but isnt the morning after pill different than the abortion pill?  The morning after pill takes care of the problem before the "man seed" meets the egg.  (at least thats what I thought...)  I dont like the idea of it either, and i certainly dont like the "just do it as much as you want" attitude, but at least there isnt a human life that has been conceived yet.

I also dont have a problem with using other means of birth control.  Me and my wife arent ready for a kid, so we use it.  However, if there was some sort of accident and we got preggo, i would NEVER consider aborting it.  Im very anti-abortion, and I have a couple of very close friends who have been through that process.  Its not a fun thing.
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« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2011, 12:18:45 PM »

Those kind of women? Excuse me. Whatever. I would never use the morning-after pill but let me tell you that the fear behind it is more complex than you think.


I am anti-abortion but I can't stand when people think that it's such an easy, simple decision, especially for those who honestly don't think it's a life. ("Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.")

Even those who think there's a life within them and are abandoned, or have already done damage to their young child in the womb before knowing they were pregnant....I am glad that you men are married to super women who apparently don't have moments of serious fear or doubt.

I wonder what would happen if we were all put in a situation where we had to choose between us and the child within us. I bet that lots of us would buckle. Pregnancy and birth are serious and can be very difficult situations. It's not something simple.
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2011, 12:28:35 PM »

Taking the morning after pill doesn't mean that you are pregnant at all. Women take it just iun case and in probably a lot of the cases there was no egg - sperm party. It's different to abortion where there is a known pregnancy.
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« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2011, 12:35:08 PM »

Like I said. It is my opinion only and I wont come down on folks that think otherwise. Thats between them and God, not me.
I think the day after pill could be murder and I would only dictate that to my family. Others dont think so, totally cool with it.

I would like to point out one thing. Alot of stuff is bantered about concerning the life of the mother. I would like to point out this is the 21st century, not 1485. The stats for the life of the mother are so low that it virtually does not happen (http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html).

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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2011, 12:39:08 PM »

I know that the chances of such happening are very low. So are our chances of being martyred here in the US for our faith. I always wonder what people would say if the gun was to their head or if they had to choose. We can talk a big game, but we better thank God for medicine and that we don't have to choose. Sadly, women in other parts of the world don't have that luxury.
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2011, 12:48:11 PM »

I think the day after pill could be murder and I would only dictate that to my family. Others dont think so, totally cool with it.

Only if there's a pregnancy and that can't be known.
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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2011, 12:57:09 PM »

I know that the chances of such happening are very low. So are our chances of being martyred here in the US for our faith. I always wonder what people would say if the gun was to their head or if they had to choose. We can talk a big game, but we better thank God for medicine and that we don't have to choose. Sadly, women in other parts of the world don't have that luxury.
I cant legitimize such a thing on a wildly rare occurance like that. It would have to be case by case IMO but I can not build my beliefs upon such things as that. To me, that is really unwise.

I think the day after pill could be murder and I would only dictate that to my family. Others dont think so, totally cool with it.

Only if there's a pregnancy and that can't be known.

Like i said, to me I consider it murder and I dictate that to my family alone. I would never shake my finger at others for taking the morning after pill. Its the whole sawdust in the eye thing.

PP
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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2011, 01:26:01 PM »

I know that the chances of such happening are very low. So are our chances of being martyred here in the US for our faith. I always wonder what people would say if the gun was to their head or if they had to choose. We can talk a big game, but we better thank God for medicine and that we don't have to choose. Sadly, women in other parts of the world don't have that luxury.
I cant legitimize such a thing on a wildly rare occurance like that. It would have to be case by case IMO but I can not build my beliefs upon such things as that. To me, that is really unwise.
I don't base my beliefs on that. I already said that I'm anti-abortion.

What struck me was the talk of "my woman would never do that!" Which, number one, I pray that there are Christian men who will be out there to support and love a woman who has regretted having an abortion or still may be struggling with her decision. Number two, by virtue of living in the US, even regardless of income, they have a pretty good shot of not having to choose between their life and the life o their child. Of course it's easy for us to say that we would never do it if that was the case. Just like the thread where tons of people were 100% sure that if they were about to be killed, that they would never deny Jesus Christ. I wonder how many people might be "rationalizing" and changing their decision, if such a moment comes.

But I don't support abortion. I just pray for women who are put in that position because that is not an easy decision.
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« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2011, 01:33:02 PM »

Quote
But I don't support abortion. I just pray for women who are put in that position because that is not an easy decision.

This is the best thing to do.  I absolutely do not support it, but sometimes when the decision has already been made, this is all you can do.  I know people who dealt with it, and it was an extremely painful (both physically and emotionally) experience.  And the paid didnt just go away after the process was over.  They certainly dont need us Christians raining down judgement on them on top of everything else. (not saying anyone here was doing this, but it does happen in the Christian community.)
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« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2011, 01:55:58 PM »

I dont know too much about anatomy and stuff, but isnt the morning after pill different than the abortion pill?  The morning after pill takes care of the problem before the "man seed" meets the egg.  (at least thats what I thought...)  I dont like the idea of it either, and i certainly dont like the "just do it as much as you want" attitude, but at least there isnt a human life that has been conceived yet.

Birth control pills (whether regular or "morning after") are different from the abortion pill (RU486 or "Mifeprex").  The abortion pill is used after a woman is known to be pregnant, up to about 49 days after her last period.  It kills the baby and causes her body to expel the baby's corpse.

Birth control pills, both regular and the "morning after" types, work by preventing ovulation so that the woman won't get pregnant.  However, the ovaries sometimes release an egg anyway, especially if the woman has missed some of her pills, or has only used the "morning after" type.  If that happens, and there is sperm inside her (and they can live up to five days), she can still get pregnant.  However, these pills also work by making the uterus a hostile environment, so that when the baby travels out of the fallopian tube and into the uterus, he or she cannot implant.  If the baby can't implant, he or she will die.  

This is an abortion, and the reason why birth control pills are called "abortifacient":  they kill children.  

If you read the medical literature about these pills, the manufacturers claim that they are not abortifacient, but this is because they use a definition of "pregnancy" that begins at implantation.  This is misleading because it's an attempt to trick people into thinking these pills aren't causing abortions.  In fact, by the time implantation happens, conception is already completed and a new human being has been alive for several days.  

Orthodox priests and bishops should be aware of all this, and they should forbid their spiritual daughters from using any kind of hormonal birth control.

Quote
I also dont have a problem with using other means of birth control.  Me and my wife arent ready for a kid, so we use it.  However, if there was some sort of accident and we got preggo, i would NEVER consider aborting it.  Im very anti-abortion, and I have a couple of very close friends who have been through that process.  Its not a fun thing.

You're not Orthodox, so this doesn't apply to you, but if you were to consider becoming Orthodox, you would need your spiritual father's permission to use contraception of any kind.
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« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2011, 02:25:21 PM »

Need his permission?! These threads get more alarming every day.
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« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2011, 02:46:02 PM »

Let me briefly address the issue of judgment. First, as Orthodox men, we should be sympathetic and compassionate to the particular struggles, hardships, and choices that women face regarding sexuality and procreation. However, Orthodox women should be equally sympathentic and compassionate regarding the struggles, hardships, and choices that men face regarding sexuality and procreation. In our feminized society, even Christians have been led to believe that women face a heavier burden than men in regard to these matters. But consider this: men have NO say in whether or not their child is carried to term and given birth, but if their child is born then they are forced to pay child support. So, it seems to me that the compassion should extend both ways.

But most importantly, if we are going to invoke the Christian imperative "thou shalt not judge," then let us not judge the unborn child and condemn it to death. No one takes the "morning after pill" unless they think that conception may have occurred. Therefore, such an act is the moral equivalent of a premeditated abortion. If you see something moving in the woods, and you aren't sure if it's a deer or another hunter, do you shoot? No. You err on the side of preserving human life.

I agree that we should extend sympathy, understanding, and compassion to women that face such profound choices. But as difficult as these choices may be, they are nevertheless made by people who enjoy the privilege of Life themselves. Regardless of how much we may personally suffer, there is no justification for alleviating our own suffering by killing another innocent human being.


Selam
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« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2011, 02:51:03 PM »

However, Orthodox women should be equally sympathentic and compassionate regarding the struggles, hardships, and choices that men face regarding sexuality and procreation. In our feminized society, even Christians have been led to believe that women face a heavier burden than men in regard to these matters. But consider this: men have NO say in whether or not their child is carried to term and given birth, but if their child is born then they are forced to pay child support. So, it seems to me that the compassion should extend both ways.
No, it's still worse for women, Gebre.
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« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2011, 02:52:14 PM »

However, Orthodox women should be equally sympathentic and compassionate regarding the struggles, hardships, and choices that men face regarding sexuality and procreation. In our feminized society, even Christians have been led to believe that women face a heavier burden than men in regard to these matters. But consider this: men have NO say in whether or not their child is carried to term and given birth, but if their child is born then they are forced to pay child support. So, it seems to me that the compassion should extend both ways.
No, it's still worse for women, Gebre.


How do you know? Can you verify your assumption?


Selam
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« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2011, 02:54:14 PM »

However, Orthodox women should be equally sympathentic and compassionate regarding the struggles, hardships, and choices that men face regarding sexuality and procreation. In our feminized society, even Christians have been led to believe that women face a heavier burden than men in regard to these matters. But consider this: men have NO say in whether or not their child is carried to term and given birth, but if their child is born then they are forced to pay child support. So, it seems to me that the compassion should extend both ways.
No, it's still worse for women, Gebre.


How do you know? Can you verify your assumption?


Selam

Because a woman who has an abortion might have that part of her body that she killed (the child) placed on the internet for all to see in order to demonstrate a polemical argument.

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« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2011, 03:02:22 PM »


Would you rather have a baby grow up from a one night stander (which I'm sure there is a stastic saying 95% of the partners wont get in a lasting relationship) or prevent that?

I'm one of those babies. It wasn't exactly a one night stand. My biological parents had a relationship that lasted several years but there was no chance of a formal commitment as my biological father was married the entire time to another woman. The conception took place in late 1951. I'm glad it wasn't 2011.
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« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2011, 03:03:23 PM »

Let me briefly address the issue of judgment. First, as Orthodox men, we should be sympathetic and compassionate to the particular struggles, hardships, and choices that women face regarding sexuality and procreation. However, Orthodox women should be equally sympathentic and compassionate regarding the struggles, hardships, and choices that men face regarding sexuality and procreation. In our feminized society, even Christians have been led to believe that women face a heavier burden than men in regard to these matters. But consider this: men have NO say in whether or not their child is carried to term and given birth, but if their child is born then they are forced to pay child support. So, it seems to me that the compassion should extend both ways.

But most importantly, if we are going to invoke the Christian imperative "thou shalt not judge," then let us not judge the unborn child and condemn it to death. No one takes the "morning after pill" unless they think that conception may have occurred. Therefore, such an act is the moral equivalent of a premeditated abortion. If you see something moving in the woods, and you aren't sure if it's a deer or another hunter, do you shoot? No. You err on the side of preserving human life.

I agree that we should extend sympathy, understanding, and compassion to women that face such profound choices. But as difficult as these choices may be, they are nevertheless made by people who enjoy the privilege of Life themselves. Regardless of how much we may personally suffer, there is no justification for alleviating our own suffering by killing another innocent human being.


Selam


Moral equivalent yes but what inevitably happens is that those who disapprove tend to both treat and talk about those who have taken the morning after pill as though they did literally kill their baby.

Compassion does extend both ways for the reasons you gave. Great paragraph.
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« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2011, 03:21:17 PM »

Unfortunately, abortion itself has become almost as casual.

As for these pills, many women are walking around with scarred souls because they have unintentionally aborted their babies from the use of birth control pills. The pill doesn't always prevent pregnancy. Sometimes conception occurs and the effects of the pill prevent the nascent embryo from attaching to the uteran wall, causing an effective abortion.

Satan has materfully woven his anti-life lies into the consciousness of our culture, and may Christians have swallowed it whole.


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Selam  

Never proven. Can't be. Good luck with moralizing biochemical theory.
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« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2011, 03:24:23 PM »

BTW, the "morning after pill" has been around a long time. ODing basically on the pill. This is just a more sane delivery method with many fewer side effects and incidences of them.

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« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2011, 04:12:34 PM »

Those kind of women? Excuse me. Whatever. I would never use the morning-after pill but let me tell you that the fear behind it is more complex than you think.


I am anti-abortion but I can't stand when people think that it's such an easy, simple decision, especially for those who honestly don't think it's a life. ("Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.")

Even those who think there's a life within them and are abandoned, or have already done damage to their young child in the womb before knowing they were pregnant....I am glad that you men are married to super women who apparently don't have moments of serious fear or doubt.

I wonder what would happen if we were all put in a situation where we had to choose between us and the child within us. I bet that lots of us would buckle. Pregnancy and birth are serious and can be very difficult situations. It's not something simple.

I think it is a simple easy decision. 

You either
1) are going to murder.
or
2) are not going to murder.

There's nothing easy about a baby no doubt, but that decision to me is clear cut and simple.
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« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2011, 04:35:52 PM »

Those kind of women? Excuse me. Whatever. I would never use the morning-after pill but let me tell you that the fear behind it is more complex than you think.


I am anti-abortion but I can't stand when people think that it's such an easy, simple decision, especially for those who honestly don't think it's a life. ("Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.")

Even those who think there's a life within them and are abandoned, or have already done damage to their young child in the womb before knowing they were pregnant....I am glad that you men are married to super women who apparently don't have moments of serious fear or doubt.

I wonder what would happen if we were all put in a situation where we had to choose between us and the child within us. I bet that lots of us would buckle. Pregnancy and birth are serious and can be very difficult situations. It's not something simple.

I think it is a simple easy decision. 

You either
1) are going to murder.
or
2) are not going to murder.

There's nothing easy about a baby no doubt, but that decision to me is clear cut and simple.

I agree with IsmiLiora, it's a clear cut decision yes, but your being overly simplistic about it.
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« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2011, 05:02:36 PM »

We all realize that the "morning after pill" ain't abortion? Right?

Then why not use it?

If you don't think the pill is abortion, then the morning after one ain't either. (I know Gebre does, but he also has weird ideas on linguistics, I wouldn't heed him as an authority on human biology, although I am sure he can find a link to say something wacky).

This thread is just FAIL.
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« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2011, 05:03:51 PM »

I think we stopped discussing MAP 20 posts ago. Or not.
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« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2011, 05:16:01 PM »

I think we stopped discussing MAP 20 posts ago. Or not.

The thread is becoming another abortion thread. I was trying to it bring back on topic.
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« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2011, 05:17:22 PM »

Carry on!
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« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2011, 05:19:38 PM »

As I said above, what perturbs me is the casual attitude to the whole transaction.

I'm not so much interested in whether the morning after pill is equivalent to abortion. It's more this concept that we are entitled to a rewind button to avoid the consequences of our actions -- not just once, but apparently multiple times a month. This mindset is apparently so deeply ingrained that reputable broadsheets are now dispensing "how to" advice about so-called "emergency contraception". Anything to perpetuate the culture of consequence-free sex, I guess.

As Liora and others have noted above, with this mindset so deeply rooted in our culture, how can we even hope to do anything against abortion while it persists?
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« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2011, 05:29:19 PM »

As I said above, what perturbs me is the casual attitude to the whole transaction.

I'm not so much interested in whether the morning after pill is equivalent to abortion. It's more this concept that we are entitled to a rewind button to avoid the consequences of our actions -- not just once, but apparently multiple times a month. This mindset is apparently so deeply ingrained in our culture that reputable broadsheets are now dispensing "how to" advice about so-called "emergency contraception".

As Liora and others have noted above, with this mindset so deeply rooted in our culture, how can we even hope to do anything against abortion while it persists?

Getting pregnant is not a necessary consequent of having sex. And you can never "push a rewind button".

I think you are taking a metaphor too seriously here. So do many others. Maybe that is the problem you are having is that people genuinely think they have erased something when they haven't.

A consequence is a consequence when something happens along with something else usually as the result of the latter.

You can never "avoid" a consequence.

It either happened or it didn't.

Pregnancy is not necessarily the consequence of sex. Never has been. Probably never will be. We just have arguably sophisticated forms to have sex without causing a pregnancy.

Frankly, I am glad people who are irresponsible enough to have sex in a manner which they would need something like "emergency contraception" have access to it. I wish more did.

In fact, I would like to take pregnancy out of the equation of sex. Pragmatically, I would like make all females sterile unless they took a pill which made them otherwise.

Why women and not men? Well the failure rate of efficacy in a male could lead to many more unwanted pregnancies than in women. A woman can only get pregnant once at a time (almost always). While a fertile man can impregnate as many women as he is capable of.

But that is the ruthless pragmatist in me.

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« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2011, 05:35:25 PM »

As I said above, what perturbs me is the casual attitude to the whole transaction.

I'm not so much interested in whether the morning after pill is equivalent to abortion. It's more this concept that we are entitled to a rewind button to avoid the consequences of our actions -- not just once, but apparently multiple times a month. This mindset is apparently so deeply ingrained in our culture that reputable broadsheets are now dispensing "how to" advice about so-called "emergency contraception".

As Liora and others have noted above, with this mindset so deeply rooted in our culture, how can we even hope to do anything against abortion while it persists?

Getting pregnant is not a necessary consequent of having sex. And you can never "push a rewind button".

I think you are taking a metaphor too seriously here. So do many others. Maybe that is the problem you are having is that people genuinely think they have erased something when they haven't.

A consequence is a consequence when something happens along with something else usually as the result of the latter.

You can never "avoid" a consequence.

It either happened or it didn't.

Pregnancy is not necessarily the consequence of sex. Never has been. Probably never will be. We just have arguably sophisticated forms to have sex without causing a pregnancy.

Frankly, I am glad people who are irresponsible enough to have sex in a manner which they would need something like "emergency contraception" have access to it. I wish more did.

In fact, I would like to take pregnancy out of the equation of sex. Pragmatically, I would like make all females sterile unless they took a pill which made them otherwise.

Why women and not men? Well the failure rate of efficacy in a male could lead to many more unwanted pregnancies than in women. A woman can only get pregnant once at a time (almost always). While a fertile man can impregnate as many women as he is capable of.

But that is the ruthless pragmatist in me.



Having spent many hours in the child protection courts, I sympathise very much with your pragmatism.

However, having spent many hours in the child protection courts, it is also clear to me that for all our bleeting about safe sex, contraception, education and whatnot, pregnancy is the inescapable consequence of sex and will remain so, so long as people are as they are.

It's true that there are no real rewind buttons, but there is a robust psychological power in the concept of being able to "undo" a mistake. Like you say, though, there is no crtl+Z for life.
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« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2011, 05:40:33 PM »

Unfortunately, abortion itself has become almost as casual.

As for these pills, many women are walking around with scarred souls because they have unintentionally aborted their babies from the use of birth control pills. The pill doesn't always prevent pregnancy. Sometimes conception occurs and the effects of the pill prevent the nascent embryo from attaching to the uteran wall, causing an effective abortion.

Satan has materfully woven his anti-life lies into the consciousness of our culture, and may Christians have swallowed it whole.


"Lord have mercy."


Selam  

Never proven. Can't be. Good luck with moralizing biochemical theory.


The fact is that you can't disprove the comments in bold. That aside, let's deal with the biological fact that the effects of the birth control pill often include prevention of the implantation of a cenceived embryo on the unteran wall. Now whether or not you personally view this embryo as a human being is a different issue. But biologically it is objectively human life, the issue of "personhood" being a philosophical/theological matter outside of biology. This is not a matter of "moralizing biochemical theory;" it is a matter of recognizing objective biological fact and then assessing that fact in light of an Orthodox Christian worldview.


Selam

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« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2011, 05:46:07 PM »

Unfortunately, abortion itself has become almost as casual.

As for these pills, many women are walking around with scarred souls because they have unintentionally aborted their babies from the use of birth control pills. The pill doesn't always prevent pregnancy. Sometimes conception occurs and the effects of the pill prevent the nascent embryo from attaching to the uteran wall, causing an effective abortion.

Satan has materfully woven his anti-life lies into the consciousness of our culture, and may Christians have swallowed it whole.


"Lord have mercy."


Selam  

Never proven. Can't be. Good luck with moralizing biochemical theory.


The fact is that you can't disprove the comments in bold. That aside, let's deal with the biological fact that the effects of the birth control pill often include prevention of the implantation of a cenceived embryo on the unteran wall. Now whether or not you personally view this embryo as a human being is a different issue. But biologically it is objectively human life, the issue of "personhood" being a philosophical/theological matter outside of biology. This is not a matter of "moralizing biochemical theory;" it is a matter of recognizing objective biological fact and then assessing that fact in light of an Orthodox Christian worldview.


Selam



No it's theory. Keep trying.

Smarter people than you have conceded the issue on this. Not just smarter but actually attempt such experimental design. It does happen, but causality has never been shown. I know people who are sympathetic to your world view who work in such fields and cannot with intellectual integrity come to your conclusion.

I would like to explain to you the difficulty experiment design, not to mention data analysis, that goes into trivial consumer product development, much less such experiments involving human subjects.

  
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« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2011, 06:12:39 PM »

Unfortunately, abortion itself has become almost as casual.

As for these pills, many women are walking around with scarred souls because they have unintentionally aborted their babies from the use of birth control pills. The pill doesn't always prevent pregnancy. Sometimes conception occurs and the effects of the pill prevent the nascent embryo from attaching to the uteran wall, causing an effective abortion.

Satan has materfully woven his anti-life lies into the consciousness of our culture, and may Christians have swallowed it whole.


"Lord have mercy."


Selam  

Never proven. Can't be. Good luck with moralizing biochemical theory.


The fact is that you can't disprove the comments in bold. That aside, let's deal with the biological fact that the effects of the birth control pill often include prevention of the implantation of a cenceived embryo on the unteran wall. Now whether or not you personally view this embryo as a human being is a different issue. But biologically it is objectively human life, the issue of "personhood" being a philosophical/theological matter outside of biology. This is not a matter of "moralizing biochemical theory;" it is a matter of recognizing objective biological fact and then assessing that fact in light of an Orthodox Christian worldview.


Selam



No it's theory. Keep trying.

Smarter people than you have conceded the issue on this. Not just smarter but actually attempt such experimental design. It does happen, but causality has never been shown. I know people who are sympathetic to your world view who work in such fields and cannot with intellectual integrity come to your conclusion.

I would like to explain to you the difficulty experiment design, not to mention data analysis, that goes into trivial consumer product development, much less such experiments involving human subjects.

  


Your obfuscation is obscured by your obtuseness. Perhaps you could address my points one by one, without the dismissive sarcasm.


Selam
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« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2011, 07:25:27 PM »

I understood him. Sometimes the embryo just doesn't implant on the uterine wall, it can happen naturally. It's not been shown by experiment that the MAP causes this or makes it more likely.
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« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2011, 07:32:26 PM »

I understood him. Sometimes the embryo just doesn't implant on the uterine wall, it can happen naturally. It's not been shown by experiment that the MAP causes this or makes it more likely.

Darn. I was writing a rhyme to respond.
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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2011, 07:37:48 PM »

I understood him. Sometimes the embryo just doesn't implant on the uterine wall, it can happen naturally. It's not been shown by experiment that the MAP causes this or makes it more likely.

Darn. I was writing a rhyme to respond.
Twas my crime, I stopped your rhyme. Does that make me slime at this time, since I declined to play the mime?
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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2011, 07:43:13 PM »

I understood him. Sometimes the embryo just doesn't implant on the uterine wall, it can happen naturally. It's not been shown by experiment that the MAP causes this or makes it more likely.

Darn. I was writing a rhyme to respond.
Twas my crime, I stopped your rhyme. Does that make me slime at this time, since I declined to play the mime?

Dude mine was full on twenty words and going of bending and bowing of alliterative assonance around the dangers of when illiterates alliterate.
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« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2011, 07:44:52 PM »

Uh....


How now, brown cow?
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« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2011, 08:03:13 PM »

Post it or it's not true.
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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2011, 08:04:18 PM »

Uh....


How now, brown cow?

It had obtuse nous all sorta sooth and loose allusions to Gebre's weak act.
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« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2011, 08:10:17 PM »

Uh....


How now, brown cow?

It had obtuse nous all sorta sooth and loose allusions to Gebre's weak act.
I've got good nous and bad nous.
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« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2011, 08:12:20 PM »

I understood him. Sometimes the embryo just doesn't implant on the uterine wall, it can happen naturally. It's not been shown by experiment that the MAP causes this or makes it more likely.

The first part of your statement is correct. Sometimes the embryo naturally does not implant on the uterine wall. The second part of your statement is patently false. The birth control pill and the MAP do make it much more likely for the embryo to implant on the uterine wall; in fact, that's part of the designed purpose of these pills.


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« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2011, 08:15:24 PM »

Post it or it's not true.

Sorry senora Liora Is-mi, or Is You senorita?
Post the photos of the wedding night por favora.
Or we're not gonna believe it.
Not of the reception, but rather when you *skips the track*
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« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2011, 08:22:31 PM »

I don't even know what to say.

Actually, I do, and there is a short window to hear it.
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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
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I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
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« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2011, 08:25:16 PM »

Post it or it's not true.

Sorry senora Liora Is-mi, or Is You senorita?
Post the photos of the wedding night por favora.
Or we're not gonna believe it.
Not of the reception, but rather when you *skips the track*
Gotta hold some of those syllables and rhymes back.
For when I cut my own dub poetry whack.
When it comes to alphabets
I am the alpha and he's the betta, or guppy caught in the nets.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 08:31:41 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2011, 08:27:51 PM »

I understood him. Sometimes the embryo just doesn't implant on the uterine wall, it can happen naturally. It's not been shown by experiment that the MAP causes this or makes it more likely.

The first part of your statement is correct. Sometimes the embryo naturally does not implant on the uterine wall. The second part of your statement is patently false. The birth control pill and the MAP do make it much more likely for the embryo to implant on the uterine wall; in fact, that's part of the designed purpose of these pills.


Selam
I don't that's been proven. The pills are made to stop ovulation.
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« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2011, 08:51:05 PM »

Post it or it's not true.

Sorry senora Liora Is-mi, or Is You senorita?
Post the photos of the wedding night por favora.
Or we're not gonna believe it.
Not of the reception, but rather when you *skips the track*
Gotta hold some of those syllables and rhymes back.
For when I cut my own dub poetry whack.
When it comes to alphabets
I am the alpha and he's the betta, or guppy caught in the nets.


For someone who claims to have rubbed elbows with Ice Cube, your poetic verse is sorely lacking. Just sayin'.   Wink


Selam
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« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2011, 10:35:37 PM »

Thank you orthonorm for making this thread great LOL.
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« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2011, 10:38:21 PM »

He has been scolded thoroughly for his insolence.
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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
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I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
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