Author Topic: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers  (Read 5130 times)

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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2011, 02:39:58 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
So you're saying that the Magi were aliens?

I think the comparison is valid. The Magi, though pagan Zoroastrians, were brought by their own belief system to worship Christ. They are now saints on our calendar! As we sing at Christmas, "Those who worshiped the stars were taught by the stars to adore Thee, the Sun of Righteousness and to know Thee, the Orient from on High, O Lord, glory to Thee!" :)
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2011, 02:48:35 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
So you're saying that the Magi were aliens?

I think the comparison is valid. The Magi, though pagan Zoroastrians, were brought by their own belief system to worship Christ. They are now saints on our calendar! As we sing at Christmas, "Those who worshiped the stars were taught by the stars to adore Thee, the Sun of Righteousness and to know Thee, the Orient from on High, O Lord, glory to Thee!" :)

We have just found the patron saints of the converted aliens. :D
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Offline Papist

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2011, 08:47:31 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
Very C.S. Lewis. :)
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2011, 03:28:13 AM »
The One Incarnation from Planet Earth can save the whole Universe. And so we are just the first fruits of that process.

To be honest, I really don't understand why some are bothered by these questions.

The Incarnation connects not only us(humans), but it also connects the whole entire Universe as well. We are made up of everything that exist in the Universe and so through us God can heal the whole entire creation itself.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:30:00 AM by jnorm888 »
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2011, 05:04:04 AM »
The One Incarnation from Planet Earth can save the whole Universe. And so we are just the first fruits of that process.

To be honest, I really don't understand why some are bothered by these questions.

The Incarnation connects not only us(humans), but it also connects the whole entire Universe as well. We are made up of everything that exist in the Universe and so through us God can heal the whole entire creation itself.

Because it's easy to get comfortable with beliefs. You can become comfortable with the idea that Paul's hanky or Peter's shadow healed people, or that God decided to become one of us so as to save us. But when you start introducing hypotheticals like space aliens from distant solar systems and asking about how Christianity relates to them? When you say things like "this is the faith that established the universe"? It puts an exclamation point on the complete and outrageous absurdity of Christian beliefs. The beliefs aren't necessarily wrong just because they're absurd, but I for one don't have the [whatever] required to simply go along with what Christianity teaches as though it makes perfect sense.

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2011, 05:20:42 AM »
The One Incarnation from Planet Earth can save the whole Universe. And so we are just the first fruits of that process.

To be honest, I really don't understand why some are bothered by these questions.

The Incarnation connects not only us(humans), but it also connects the whole entire Universe as well. We are made up of everything that exist in the Universe and so through us God can heal the whole entire creation itself.

Because it's easy to get comfortable with beliefs. You can become comfortable with the idea that Paul's hanky or Peter's shadow healed people, or that God decided to become one of us so as to save us. But when you start introducing hypotheticals like space aliens from distant solar systems and asking about how Christianity relates to them? When you say things like "this is the faith that established the universe"? It puts an exclamation point on the complete and outrageous absurdity of Christian beliefs. The beliefs aren't necessarily wrong just because they're absurd, but I for one don't have the [whatever] required to simply go along with what Christianity teaches as though it makes perfect sense.

It makes perfect sense to me! And these things aren't just mere beliefs! They are actual real historical events as well!

Paul's hanky, when it comes to healing people is not just a mere belief!
Peter's shadow in healing someone is not just a mere belief!
The Incarnation is not just a mere belief!

They are actual real events as well!

Also, the fact that we say "this is the faith that established the universe" should give us clues that this faith is not just for Planet Earth alone! No, it's for all creation! It's for the whole entire Universe as well!

This is why I don't understand why it's a problem to some! To me, it can only be a problem for those who don't really believe what they are suppose to believe in.


But if you believe in what you are suppose to believe in then how can it be a problem?

I also don't understand why some may feel that there needs to be multiple Incarnations on every habitable organic planet in the Universe.

No! That's not necessary!

The whole Universe and everything in it can be saved /healed by just one Incarnation......on one Planet.


Our understanding of Salvation is not forensic, and so for us the Incarnation actually means something. It actually has meaning.  And since the Church is mysteriously united/connected with Christ's Resurrected Body........well, some of these statements that you see as being absurd, well, I see them as being beautiful and they make perfect sense!

Yeah, those statements might seem absurd from a purely naturalistic perspective, but from a Theological perspective I see them as being beautiful! And I see no reason why such issues should be a problem! Especially when our theology in regards to salvation extends to the rest of creation itself.


« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 05:40:17 AM by jnorm888 »
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2011, 05:38:03 AM »
It is best not to indulge in these idle (and potentially idolatrous) speculations. The simple answer is that we do not know whether or not there is "intelligent life" outside of our earth. I agree with those who have said that if alien life does exist, then the Cross is sufficient to redeeem these lives as well.

But too much interest in these matters can distract us from Christ. If ostensible evidence for alien life is proferred by the learned of this world, then we should ignore it just as we should ignore dreams and visions. I can just imagine how Christians could suddenly become concerned about the "plan of salvation" for aliens while neglecting the dire spiritual and social needs here on earth.

Let us heed the two great commandments of Our Lord: Love God and love our neighbor. If these "Martians" do indeed exist, then God will take care of them. Therefore, let us not be distracted or deceived by such exotic and other-worldly intrigues.


That's just my two cents.


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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2011, 05:50:03 AM »
It is best not to indulge in these idle (and potentially idolatrous) speculations. The simple answer is that we do not know whether or not there is "intelligent life" outside of our earth. I agree with those who have said that if alien life does exist, then the Cross is sufficient to redeeem these lives as well.

But too much interest in these matters can distract us from Christ. If ostensible evidence for alien life is proferred by the learned of this world, then we should ignore it just as we should ignore dreams and visions. I can just imagine how Christians could suddenly become concerned about the "plan of salvation" for aliens while neglecting the dire spiritual and social needs here on earth.

Let us heed the two great commandments of Our Lord: Love God and love our neighbor. If these "Martians" do indeed exist, then God will take care of them. Therefore, let us not be distracted or deceived by such exotic and other-worldly intrigues.


That's just my two cents.


Selam



We all know that the churches in our heavily secularized world will be pressured to deny their own faith in order to accept the idea of organic life on other planets.

We all know that this is what's going to happen. All I'm saying is, we don't have to deny our traditional beliefs in order to accept whatever is out there in the Universe.


I am posting these ideas for a reason! People need to know that Orthodox Theology is not the same as some of the more legal modals of the west and so we should look at this issue from the bosom of our own Theology/tradition.

I want these ideas to get out there! For people need to know these things!




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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2011, 05:51:56 AM »

It makes perfect sense to me! And these things aren't just mere beliefs! They are actual real historical events as well!

Paul's hanky healing people is not just a mere belief!
Peter's shadow healing someone is not just a mere belief!
The Incarnation is not just a mere belief!

They are actual real events as well!
We have no independent historical documentation of these things, we can only believe in them in virtue of accepting already Christianity.
I also don't understand why some may feel that there needs to be multiple Incarnations on every habitable organic planet in the Universe.

No! That's not necessary!

The whole Universe and everything in it can be saved /healed by just one Incarnation......on one Planet.


Our understanding of Salvation is not forensic, and so for us the Incarnation actually means something. It actually has meaning.  And since the Church is mysteriously united/connected with Christ's Resurrected Body........well, some of these statements that you see as being absurd, well, I see them as being beautiful and they make perfect sense!

Yeah, those statements might seem absurd from a purely naturalistic perspective, but from a Theological perspective I see them as being beautiful! And I see no reason why such issues should be a problem!


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Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Angels are intelligent, noetic beings and yet the author of Hebrews makes such a big deal about Jesus being made like His brethren in contrast to angels.

Offline serb1389

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2011, 05:01:02 PM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2011, 09:28:36 PM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

I'm sure that in our fallen nature, we would find a way to make them die.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 09:28:58 PM by Melodist »
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2011, 09:30:19 PM »
^ Or die trying.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2011, 09:38:13 PM »
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2011, 10:55:52 AM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

Do stars and black wholes die? If so then they die too! No matter how long they are able to live. The whole Universe is decaying. We just all decay at different rates!

If we were living around the time of Adam and Eve (yes, I believe they were real people! As any christian should) then we would think they were immortals for they were able to live for a very long long long long time. But they weren't immortals, they were just dying at a slower rate than us.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 11:02:44 AM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2011, 11:11:35 AM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

Do stars and black wholes die? If so then they die too! No matter how long they are able to live. The whole Universe is decaying. We just all decay at different rates!

If we were living around the time of Adam and Eve (yes, I believe they were real people! As any christian should) then we would think they were immortals for they were able to live for a very long long long long time. But they weren't immortals, they were just dying at a slower rate than us.
Are you suggesting that death (of stars and black holes) existed before Adam and Eve's sin?
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2011, 11:44:35 AM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

Do stars and black wholes die? If so then they die too! No matter how long they are able to live. The whole Universe is decaying. We just all decay at different rates!

If we were living around the time of Adam and Eve (yes, I believe they were real people! As any christian should) then we would think they were immortals for they were able to live for a very long long long long time. But they weren't immortals, they were just dying at a slower rate than us.
Are you suggesting that death (of stars and black holes) existed before Adam and Eve's sin?

hmm, good question! I don't know how to respond to that at this point in time.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 11:45:55 AM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2011, 12:41:30 AM »
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 12:41:44 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2011, 12:58:52 AM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

Do stars and black wholes die? If so then they die too! No matter how long they are able to live. The whole Universe is decaying. We just all decay at different rates!

If we were living around the time of Adam and Eve (yes, I believe they were real people! As any christian should) then we would think they were immortals for they were able to live for a very long long long long time. But they weren't immortals, they were just dying at a slower rate than us.
Are you suggesting that death (of stars and black holes) existed before Adam and Eve's sin?
Can things which are not self-aware truly die?
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2011, 05:55:30 PM »
Can things which are not self-aware truly die?
Or life forms, for that matter. I don't think the Fathers called metallurgy the taking of a life (although I guess the wood burned would count).
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline Seraphim98

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2011, 11:23:55 PM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 11:24:43 PM by Seraphim98 »

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2011, 03:18:53 AM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.

We all know that his grace was only given that titular see because of a book he wrote for the aliens of Omicron Persei 8 explaining Orthodoxy to them. I hear that he'll be made into a titular Metropolitan soon, while still serving as an auxiliary bishop.
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2011, 03:20:06 AM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.

Awesome.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2011, 03:25:35 AM »
 :laugh:

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2011, 02:14:42 PM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.

We all know that his grace was only given that titular see because of a book he wrote for the aliens of Omicron Persei 8 explaining Orthodoxy to them. I hear that he'll be made into a titular Metropolitan soon, while still serving as an auxiliary bishop.

LOL, Oh you guys are killing me!
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2011, 02:19:41 PM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

I'm sure that in our fallen nature, we would find a way to make them die.
How true!
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2011, 02:29:31 PM »
When I think of the Incarnation, the fact that God became Man, that by itself transfigures all matter in the cosmos, everything even the angels have been able to see the unseen, to touch the untouchable, that speaks of the transfiguration of matter to its ultimate potential. Salvation for All cosmos that is tide to the  Creation and Salvation of Man, its king and its priest. I do not think that matter remains the same after the Incarnation. I wont go any further... though this thread certainly triggers some interesting points to think about.
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #71 on: December 27, 2011, 03:54:41 PM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.

We all know that his grace was only given that titular see because of a book he wrote for the aliens of Omicron Persei 8 explaining Orthodoxy to them. I hear that he'll be made into a titular Metropolitan soon, while still serving as an auxiliary bishop.

 :o

Can they then be absorbed into another jurisdiction, or should they be granted their own national charter and everything?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #72 on: December 27, 2011, 04:36:18 PM »
Autocephaly for the cephalopods!

Offline Seraphim98

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2011, 06:34:12 PM »
Quote
Can they then be absorbed into another jurisdiction, or should they be granted their own national charter and everything?

That will depend on how they resolve their jurisdictional issues. Their native year is only 4/5ths as long as our year, but their days are longer which means they have more services per day. Given the slipperiness of time over vast distances this was never a problem, they just fit the Church year into their natural cycle and doubled up saint's days where appropriate. But now displaced they struggle with our short days and long year and adjusting their calendar to ours.  It has been a divisive issue.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2011, 06:38:12 PM »
How has their valiant struggle against the damnable heresy of Mhsjdkeonjpleism been going?

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2011, 07:04:41 PM »
How has their valiant struggle against the damnable heresy of Mhsjdkeonjpleism been going?

That heresy has died down a bit. It is no longer widely believed that Christ was capable of mhsjdkeonjpleic willing.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 07:09:58 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #76 on: December 27, 2011, 07:05:47 PM »
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #77 on: December 27, 2011, 07:39:45 PM »
Quote
Can they then be absorbed into another jurisdiction, or should they be granted their own national charter and everything?

That will depend on how they resolve their jurisdictional issues. Their native year is only 4/5ths as long as our year, but their days are longer which means they have more services per day. Given the slipperiness of time over vast distances this was never a problem, they just fit the Church year into their natural cycle and doubled up saint's days where appropriate. But now displaced they struggle with our short days and long year and adjusting their calendar to ours.  It has been a divisive issue.

Not to mention those who want to sneak in the heresy of time travel to the mix!!
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #78 on: December 27, 2011, 08:34:04 PM »
Ok ladies and gentlemen.  Enough with the Random Topics issues.  Either you discuss the OP or you will be warned.  While this HAS been fun, you can either start your own thread, or continue this in the Random Topics thread. 

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