Author Topic: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers  (Read 5143 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« on: October 10, 2011, 02:42:27 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/10/theologian-says-religious_n_998508.html

You can even take his survey as to whether the discovering of intelligent life would destroy your faith. Anyway, the outcome is it that it's the non-religious who tend to think alien contact would destroy peoples' faith.

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2011, 02:46:08 PM »
In before unimaginative fellows from ROCOR cite Fr. Seraphim of Platina in this thread.  :police:
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 02:49:04 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2011, 02:48:49 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 02:50:06 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2011, 02:53:53 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
I wonder if the medievals thought they were humans who happened to have dog heads or an entirely different "species."

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 02:55:27 PM »
In before unimaginative fellows from ROCOR cite Fr. Seraphim of Platina in this thread.  :police:
Good point. It should be noted, this has nothing at all with alleged UFO sightings, it's about the possibility of what is out there.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 02:55:36 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
I wonder if the medievals thought they were humans who happened to have dog heads or an entirely different "species."
Or both.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Severian

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 03:20:33 PM »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 03:27:05 PM »
In before unimaginative fellows from ROCOR cite Fr. Seraphim of Platina in this thread.  :police:

Fr. Seraphim said that aliens are really just demons, but I think the real question is what calendar are they on?

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2011, 03:29:46 PM »
If aliens exist as we think of them in science-fiction, sensient beings, they will be humans in the broad sense of the word, even if they have tentacles instead of legs and arms, and therefore, fallen.

But I'm not optimistic about this. If they exist, it means that either no species has achieved interstellar/intergallatic travel capability, or that it is, in fact, impossible for biological organisms.

My leanings, though, are with the Rare Earth hypothesis. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis )

I might concede alien races *with* the Rare Earth hypothesis if we take into account the possibility of a Multiverse. Aliens would exist in other universes and that would be the source of the difficulty in communication.

*If* we are the only intelligent race in this universe - as I guess we are - then, the *whole* universe is ours to explore. If that is the case, "taking the Gospel to all nations" actually mean spreading it, literally, through all the inhabitable worlds in the universe and even those that can be made inhabitable through terraformation. If the Day of Judgment will come only after that, than current calculations of the scientists for the death of the universe may allow for a "human diaspora" throughout the Universe before that.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2011, 05:00:36 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  :police:

Offline bogdan

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2011, 05:02:22 PM »
My leanings, though, are with the Rare Earth hypothesis. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis )

I agree.

Still, Salvation is not just for man, but for the entire cosmos, and that includes aliens (though the atonement for sins is specific to humans, as Volnutt points out). But I am not holding my breath that they exist, nor do I much care. There are a thousand good reasons to explore space, but looking for aliens is not one of them, IMO.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 05:02:54 PM by bogdan »

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2011, 05:07:51 PM »
My leanings, though, are with the Rare Earth hypothesis. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis )

I agree.

Still, Salvation is not just for man, but for the entire cosmos, and that includes aliens (though the atonement for sins is specific to humans, as Volnutt points out). But I am not holding my breath that they exist, nor do I much care. There are a thousand good reasons to explore space, but looking for aliens is not one of them, IMO.

Well, if they exist, if they are intelligent moral beings with free will, then they would fit the concept of human, which would have to be broadened from our species. If there are aliens with the traits I mentioned, I think they would have fallen souls in need of salvation.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2011, 05:08:28 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  :police:

This:

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Offline William

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2011, 05:10:14 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  :police:

This:



Where did you find that?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline William

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2011, 05:12:02 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
Could you explain the origin of your avatar a bit?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2011, 05:34:17 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
Could you explain the origin of your avatar a bit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynocephaly
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2011, 05:38:19 PM »
I can't even believe people are discussing this. The God-blessed and thrice-blessed Fathers already dealt with space aliens at the 6th Ecumenical Council...

"If, however, there be anyone in the world who does not care to hold and embrace the aforesaid dogmas of piety, and believe and preach thus, but, on the contrary, attempts to by-pass them, let him be anathema, in accordance with the definition (or rule) already previously promulgated by the aforesaid holy and blissful Fathers, and let him be erased and expunged from the Christian Roll like an alien, and as one not belonging to our faith." - Trullo, Canon 1

BAM!

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2011, 05:47:26 PM »
The God-blessed and thrice-blessed
Where did the thrice-blessing come from if not God?

expunged from the Christian Roll
A little leaven leavens the whole roll.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 05:48:07 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2011, 06:01:25 PM »
The God-blessed and thrice-blessed
Where did the thrice-blessing come from if not God?

The thrice-blessing is indeed from God. And since God is three persons, the first blessing mentioned is also a triple blessing. Some assume from this that there are 6 blessings, and since 6 is the number of man, that this indicates that it is a blessing from the God-man. This is not so. Instead, you don't add the blessings, but multiply: 3 x 3 = 9. But what is 9? Now you must divide by 2, for it was given through two blessings. Thus we get 4 1/2. Now this is where it gets speculative. Some think that the 4 1/2 stands for the Four Gospels, with Acts being the 1/2 since it was not a Gospel yet was a continuation of the story. Others, however, say that 4 1/2 is meant to symbolize fulness, for there are 4 winds and 4 pillars that the earth sits on and 4 edges of the world, so adding a 1/2 is like saying "all that and more, baby!"  It's like a symbol for everything that is, and maybe a smidgen more.

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2011, 06:24:12 PM »
selam to all  ;D


although I am going to qoute my brother nicholas, what i have to say is for whom it may concern  :police:

In before unimaginative fellows from ROCOR cite Fr. Seraphim of Platina in this thread.  :police:


Since when did it become fashionable among the orthodox to ridicule the long existing belief that the lord created mankind as we know it today and angels as intelligent beings? or for the speculation that insinuates the theology that includes alien intelligent life to be more acceptable theology of Christianity? Oh include the young vs. Old earth theology controversy in this also. When it comes to our salivation both sides can believe either side of the argument and still benefit from their faith in Christ Crucified for humanity. So our redemption story is not dependant on the age of the earth or the presence of aliens or not. However there are among us those who believe one is wrong and the other one is right, and still others who believe accepting one is in contradiction to what has been reveled and believed as true in the church. No matter, I believe those who have a new found knowledge that allowed them to be ‘free thinkers’ if they are to maintain the mind of Christ  which the apostle tells us we should , avoid being puffed up over their ‘ none free thinking  set in their ways’ brethren. If we are to present an idea , or even a fact, let us do it in charity, not in disdain , contempt  and ridicule  towards our brethren, as the apostle have said knowledge puffs up but love builds up. Surely we can agree to disagree on certain things without losing our basic Christian ethics and hurling words that would harm our brethren for whom our Lord died for. Let us prioritize, IMO certain things are not worth losing our brethren over. So dial down that particular tone. and I say this for all sides, those that cry heretics or those that say ignorants. you are free to disagree with me ofc 8)

Having said all that lol which might get me some rotten tomatoes from some  and hopefuly which I will accept as gracefully as possible lol :-\ in simplest terms I think that if intelligent aliens exist our God will provide for them in all their needs, spiritual or physical. He is never far from His creation. As the lord did not need to become an angel for the angelic hosts to be united to him, salvation to the aliens does not need to necessarily call for the incarnation as ours did. Therefore it will not make me lose my faith or increase it in some way, to find that they exist.

selam for all. :)
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2011, 08:27:32 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  :police:

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  :P

But, seriously...where did you find that?
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2011, 08:30:30 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
I wonder if the medievals thought they were humans who happened to have dog heads or an entirely different "species."
Or both.

Offline Melodist

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2011, 08:39:31 PM »

He is descended from Adam, not exactly alien.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Melodist

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2011, 08:41:21 PM »
This:

Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  :P

But, seriously...where did you find that?

History Channel? It wouldn't suprise me if it was.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2011, 08:46:49 PM »

He is descended from Adam, not exactly alien.
But he's Homo Superior, not Homo Sapiens.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2011, 08:52:13 PM »
I'm still trying to determine if that automobile in the snowbank *really* had 4WD.
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2011, 09:28:58 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  :police:

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  :P

But, seriously...where did you find that?

Benjamin, I was trying to decide what to name our gray man icon before i forwarded it to those who might get a kick out of this, that name was off the chain!! thank you !! ;D mine was not as original as you, ever watched the Star gate as often as i do? well ' St.Thor Supreme Commander of the Asgard Fleet,of the galaxy of Ida, defender of the Fifth Race from the heretical council of the Goa'uld' ;D
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2011, 09:30:37 PM »
Stargate, nice, Hiwot!

He looks quite fetching, I have to say.
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2011, 09:32:09 PM »
I'm still trying to determine if that automobile in the snowbank *really* had 4WD.

Wha...?  Why must you attack this righteous man at every turn? Does your audacious envy know no end?

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2011, 09:33:38 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  :police:

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  :P

But, seriously...where did you find that?

Benjamin, I was trying to decide what to name our gray man icon before i forwarded it to those who might get a kick out of this, that name was off the chain!! thank you !! ;D mine was not as original as you, ever watched the Star gate as often as i do? well ' St.Thor Supreme Commander of the Asgard Fleet,of the galaxy of Ida, defender of the Fifth Race from the heretical council of the Goa'uld' ;D

Lol. Awesome, Hiwot! Gimme a minute and I'll write up a hagiography. :P
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2011, 09:44:48 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  :police:

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  :P

But, seriously...where did you find that?

Benjamin, I was trying to decide what to name our gray man icon before i forwarded it to those who might get a kick out of this, that name was off the chain!! thank you !! ;D mine was not as original as you, ever watched the Star gate as often as i do? well ' St.Thor Supreme Commander of the Asgard Fleet,of the galaxy of Ida, defender of the Fifth Race from the heretical council of the Goa'uld' ;D

Hiwot breaking serious Stargate knowledgez.

There are so many jokes here I don't know where to begin.

Probably not in this thread.
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2011, 09:53:41 PM »
 ;D I am glad I am not the only Stargate junkie up in here.LOL
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2011, 10:21:15 PM »
Stargate blows. Just thought I'd contribute to the discussion by mentioning that.

Now Farscape, that was a good show.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2011, 10:33:41 PM »
I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  :police:

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  :P

But, seriously...where did you find that?


From this site in Portuguese: http://oprofeta.net/?p=3920  

It talks about some declarations from an astronomer priest in the Vatican that life would soon be found in other planets.

You can see related news here (without Bishop Qvuulientalii'i): http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/17/pope-astronomer-baptise-aliens
(by the way, the astronomer's POV is similar to mine on this issue)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 10:45:40 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2011, 10:53:22 PM »
I had that Alien Christ icon as my avatar before, but was asked to have it removed.

Anyway, I'm more interested to see how the worldwide population would react to alien encounters.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2011, 11:05:47 PM »
I had that Alien Christ icon as my avatar before, but was asked to have it removed.

Anyway, I'm more interested to see how the worldwide population would react to alien encounters.

In accordance with premise of the film, "Knowing" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0448011/), we won't have much time to react to said encounters! Turn up Beethoven's Seventh, because it's all over.  :P
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2011, 12:02:35 PM »
Earth is missionary territory.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2011, 12:25:27 PM »
Earth is missionary territory.


Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2011, 12:37:19 PM »
Earth is missionary territory.


Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....

Interesting title, that's for sure. "His All-Holiness Michael LXXVIII, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome, Metropolitan of All Earth, and Ecumenical Patriarch."  :o

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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2011, 12:49:27 PM »
Earth is missionary territory.


Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....

Interesting title, that's for sure. "His All-Holiness Michael LXXVIII, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome, Metropolitan of All Earth, and Ecumenical Patriarch."  :o



Plot hook... would he consider all the Orthodox on the other planet to be under his jurisdiction since they are all a kind of diaspora? Do "barbaric lands" include other planets? :)
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2011, 01:04:37 PM »
Earth is missionary territory.
Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....
Interesting title, that's for sure. "His All-Holiness Michael LXXVIII, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome, Metropolitan of All Earth, and Ecumenical Patriarch."  :o
Plot hook... would he consider all the Orthodox on the other planet to be under his jurisdiction since they are all a kind of diaspora? Do "barbaric lands" include other planets? :)

Gives new meaning to "universal bishop".
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2011, 01:07:46 PM »
Earth is missionary territory.


Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....

Interesting title, that's for sure. "His All-Holiness Michael LXXVIII, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome, Metropolitan of All Earth, and Ecumenical Patriarch."  :o



Plot hook... would he consider all the Orthodox on the other planet to be under his jurisdiction since they are all a kind of diaspora? Do "barbaric lands" include other planets? :)

He would! But the Patriarch of Olympus Mons and All Mars would claim to be the Second Earth, ever since the Marsian terraforming was complete and Earth has been significantly drained of natural resources. Obviously, this makes Mars now the capital of humanity, with its new resources and growing population. Therefore the Marsian Patriarchate would officially advocate itself as the new Ecumenical Patriarchate and seek to hold its exoplanetary territories, since they were the first to missionize them, and they were at the time politically held as colonies of Mars, not Earth.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2011, 01:16:23 PM »
When they get here they are going to ask for directions to the nearest Blessed Sacrament chapel.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2011, 02:05:53 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 02:06:34 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2011, 02:31:00 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
So you're saying that the Magi were aliens?
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2011, 02:39:58 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
So you're saying that the Magi were aliens?

I think the comparison is valid. The Magi, though pagan Zoroastrians, were brought by their own belief system to worship Christ. They are now saints on our calendar! As we sing at Christmas, "Those who worshiped the stars were taught by the stars to adore Thee, the Sun of Righteousness and to know Thee, the Orient from on High, O Lord, glory to Thee!" :)
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2011, 02:48:35 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
So you're saying that the Magi were aliens?

I think the comparison is valid. The Magi, though pagan Zoroastrians, were brought by their own belief system to worship Christ. They are now saints on our calendar! As we sing at Christmas, "Those who worshiped the stars were taught by the stars to adore Thee, the Sun of Righteousness and to know Thee, the Orient from on High, O Lord, glory to Thee!" :)

We have just found the patron saints of the converted aliens. :D
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2011, 08:47:31 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
Very C.S. Lewis. :)
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2011, 03:28:13 AM »
The One Incarnation from Planet Earth can save the whole Universe. And so we are just the first fruits of that process.

To be honest, I really don't understand why some are bothered by these questions.

The Incarnation connects not only us(humans), but it also connects the whole entire Universe as well. We are made up of everything that exist in the Universe and so through us God can heal the whole entire creation itself.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:30:00 AM by jnorm888 »
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2011, 05:04:04 AM »
The One Incarnation from Planet Earth can save the whole Universe. And so we are just the first fruits of that process.

To be honest, I really don't understand why some are bothered by these questions.

The Incarnation connects not only us(humans), but it also connects the whole entire Universe as well. We are made up of everything that exist in the Universe and so through us God can heal the whole entire creation itself.

Because it's easy to get comfortable with beliefs. You can become comfortable with the idea that Paul's hanky or Peter's shadow healed people, or that God decided to become one of us so as to save us. But when you start introducing hypotheticals like space aliens from distant solar systems and asking about how Christianity relates to them? When you say things like "this is the faith that established the universe"? It puts an exclamation point on the complete and outrageous absurdity of Christian beliefs. The beliefs aren't necessarily wrong just because they're absurd, but I for one don't have the [whatever] required to simply go along with what Christianity teaches as though it makes perfect sense.

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2011, 05:20:42 AM »
The One Incarnation from Planet Earth can save the whole Universe. And so we are just the first fruits of that process.

To be honest, I really don't understand why some are bothered by these questions.

The Incarnation connects not only us(humans), but it also connects the whole entire Universe as well. We are made up of everything that exist in the Universe and so through us God can heal the whole entire creation itself.

Because it's easy to get comfortable with beliefs. You can become comfortable with the idea that Paul's hanky or Peter's shadow healed people, or that God decided to become one of us so as to save us. But when you start introducing hypotheticals like space aliens from distant solar systems and asking about how Christianity relates to them? When you say things like "this is the faith that established the universe"? It puts an exclamation point on the complete and outrageous absurdity of Christian beliefs. The beliefs aren't necessarily wrong just because they're absurd, but I for one don't have the [whatever] required to simply go along with what Christianity teaches as though it makes perfect sense.

It makes perfect sense to me! And these things aren't just mere beliefs! They are actual real historical events as well!

Paul's hanky, when it comes to healing people is not just a mere belief!
Peter's shadow in healing someone is not just a mere belief!
The Incarnation is not just a mere belief!

They are actual real events as well!

Also, the fact that we say "this is the faith that established the universe" should give us clues that this faith is not just for Planet Earth alone! No, it's for all creation! It's for the whole entire Universe as well!

This is why I don't understand why it's a problem to some! To me, it can only be a problem for those who don't really believe what they are suppose to believe in.


But if you believe in what you are suppose to believe in then how can it be a problem?

I also don't understand why some may feel that there needs to be multiple Incarnations on every habitable organic planet in the Universe.

No! That's not necessary!

The whole Universe and everything in it can be saved /healed by just one Incarnation......on one Planet.


Our understanding of Salvation is not forensic, and so for us the Incarnation actually means something. It actually has meaning.  And since the Church is mysteriously united/connected with Christ's Resurrected Body........well, some of these statements that you see as being absurd, well, I see them as being beautiful and they make perfect sense!

Yeah, those statements might seem absurd from a purely naturalistic perspective, but from a Theological perspective I see them as being beautiful! And I see no reason why such issues should be a problem! Especially when our theology in regards to salvation extends to the rest of creation itself.


« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 05:40:17 AM by jnorm888 »
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2011, 05:38:03 AM »
It is best not to indulge in these idle (and potentially idolatrous) speculations. The simple answer is that we do not know whether or not there is "intelligent life" outside of our earth. I agree with those who have said that if alien life does exist, then the Cross is sufficient to redeeem these lives as well.

But too much interest in these matters can distract us from Christ. If ostensible evidence for alien life is proferred by the learned of this world, then we should ignore it just as we should ignore dreams and visions. I can just imagine how Christians could suddenly become concerned about the "plan of salvation" for aliens while neglecting the dire spiritual and social needs here on earth.

Let us heed the two great commandments of Our Lord: Love God and love our neighbor. If these "Martians" do indeed exist, then God will take care of them. Therefore, let us not be distracted or deceived by such exotic and other-worldly intrigues.


That's just my two cents.


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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2011, 05:50:03 AM »
It is best not to indulge in these idle (and potentially idolatrous) speculations. The simple answer is that we do not know whether or not there is "intelligent life" outside of our earth. I agree with those who have said that if alien life does exist, then the Cross is sufficient to redeeem these lives as well.

But too much interest in these matters can distract us from Christ. If ostensible evidence for alien life is proferred by the learned of this world, then we should ignore it just as we should ignore dreams and visions. I can just imagine how Christians could suddenly become concerned about the "plan of salvation" for aliens while neglecting the dire spiritual and social needs here on earth.

Let us heed the two great commandments of Our Lord: Love God and love our neighbor. If these "Martians" do indeed exist, then God will take care of them. Therefore, let us not be distracted or deceived by such exotic and other-worldly intrigues.


That's just my two cents.


Selam



We all know that the churches in our heavily secularized world will be pressured to deny their own faith in order to accept the idea of organic life on other planets.

We all know that this is what's going to happen. All I'm saying is, we don't have to deny our traditional beliefs in order to accept whatever is out there in the Universe.


I am posting these ideas for a reason! People need to know that Orthodox Theology is not the same as some of the more legal modals of the west and so we should look at this issue from the bosom of our own Theology/tradition.

I want these ideas to get out there! For people need to know these things!




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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2011, 05:51:56 AM »

It makes perfect sense to me! And these things aren't just mere beliefs! They are actual real historical events as well!

Paul's hanky healing people is not just a mere belief!
Peter's shadow healing someone is not just a mere belief!
The Incarnation is not just a mere belief!

They are actual real events as well!
We have no independent historical documentation of these things, we can only believe in them in virtue of accepting already Christianity.
I also don't understand why some may feel that there needs to be multiple Incarnations on every habitable organic planet in the Universe.

No! That's not necessary!

The whole Universe and everything in it can be saved /healed by just one Incarnation......on one Planet.


Our understanding of Salvation is not forensic, and so for us the Incarnation actually means something. It actually has meaning.  And since the Church is mysteriously united/connected with Christ's Resurrected Body........well, some of these statements that you see as being absurd, well, I see them as being beautiful and they make perfect sense!

Yeah, those statements might seem absurd from a purely naturalistic perspective, but from a Theological perspective I see them as being beautiful! And I see no reason why such issues should be a problem!


Quote from: Hebrews 2:14-18
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2011, 05:01:02 PM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2011, 09:28:36 PM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

I'm sure that in our fallen nature, we would find a way to make them die.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 09:28:58 PM by Melodist »
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2011, 09:30:19 PM »
^ Or die trying.
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2011, 09:38:13 PM »
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2011, 10:55:52 AM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

Do stars and black wholes die? If so then they die too! No matter how long they are able to live. The whole Universe is decaying. We just all decay at different rates!

If we were living around the time of Adam and Eve (yes, I believe they were real people! As any christian should) then we would think they were immortals for they were able to live for a very long long long long time. But they weren't immortals, they were just dying at a slower rate than us.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 11:02:44 AM by jnorm888 »
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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2011, 11:11:35 AM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

Do stars and black wholes die? If so then they die too! No matter how long they are able to live. The whole Universe is decaying. We just all decay at different rates!

If we were living around the time of Adam and Eve (yes, I believe they were real people! As any christian should) then we would think they were immortals for they were able to live for a very long long long long time. But they weren't immortals, they were just dying at a slower rate than us.
Are you suggesting that death (of stars and black holes) existed before Adam and Eve's sin?
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2011, 11:44:35 AM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

Do stars and black wholes die? If so then they die too! No matter how long they are able to live. The whole Universe is decaying. We just all decay at different rates!

If we were living around the time of Adam and Eve (yes, I believe they were real people! As any christian should) then we would think they were immortals for they were able to live for a very long long long long time. But they weren't immortals, they were just dying at a slower rate than us.
Are you suggesting that death (of stars and black holes) existed before Adam and Eve's sin?

hmm, good question! I don't know how to respond to that at this point in time.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 11:45:55 AM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2011, 12:41:30 AM »
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 12:41:44 AM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2011, 12:58:52 AM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

Do stars and black wholes die? If so then they die too! No matter how long they are able to live. The whole Universe is decaying. We just all decay at different rates!

If we were living around the time of Adam and Eve (yes, I believe they were real people! As any christian should) then we would think they were immortals for they were able to live for a very long long long long time. But they weren't immortals, they were just dying at a slower rate than us.
Are you suggesting that death (of stars and black holes) existed before Adam and Eve's sin?
Can things which are not self-aware truly die?
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2011, 05:55:30 PM »
Can things which are not self-aware truly die?
Or life forms, for that matter. I don't think the Fathers called metallurgy the taking of a life (although I guess the wood burned would count).
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Seraphim98

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2011, 11:23:55 PM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 11:24:43 PM by Seraphim98 »

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2011, 03:18:53 AM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.

We all know that his grace was only given that titular see because of a book he wrote for the aliens of Omicron Persei 8 explaining Orthodoxy to them. I hear that he'll be made into a titular Metropolitan soon, while still serving as an auxiliary bishop.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2011, 03:20:06 AM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.

Awesome.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2011, 03:25:35 AM »
 :laugh:

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2011, 02:14:42 PM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.

We all know that his grace was only given that titular see because of a book he wrote for the aliens of Omicron Persei 8 explaining Orthodoxy to them. I hear that he'll be made into a titular Metropolitan soon, while still serving as an auxiliary bishop.

LOL, Oh you guys are killing me!
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2011, 02:19:41 PM »
My question is, what if the aliens don't die?  I mean...how would death by death affect them?   :angel:

I'm sure that in our fallen nature, we would find a way to make them die.
How true!
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2011, 02:29:31 PM »
When I think of the Incarnation, the fact that God became Man, that by itself transfigures all matter in the cosmos, everything even the angels have been able to see the unseen, to touch the untouchable, that speaks of the transfiguration of matter to its ultimate potential. Salvation for All cosmos that is tide to the  Creation and Salvation of Man, its king and its priest. I do not think that matter remains the same after the Incarnation. I wont go any further... though this thread certainly triggers some interesting points to think about.
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline biro

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #71 on: December 27, 2011, 03:54:41 PM »
Bishop of Xyykiti is purely titular. There hasn't been a functional diocese there since the devastation following the replicator wars. I think his actual see is somewhere in AZ.

We all know that his grace was only given that titular see because of a book he wrote for the aliens of Omicron Persei 8 explaining Orthodoxy to them. I hear that he'll be made into a titular Metropolitan soon, while still serving as an auxiliary bishop.

 :o

Can they then be absorbed into another jurisdiction, or should they be granted their own national charter and everything?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #72 on: December 27, 2011, 04:36:18 PM »
Autocephaly for the cephalopods!

Offline Seraphim98

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2011, 06:34:12 PM »
Quote
Can they then be absorbed into another jurisdiction, or should they be granted their own national charter and everything?

That will depend on how they resolve their jurisdictional issues. Their native year is only 4/5ths as long as our year, but their days are longer which means they have more services per day. Given the slipperiness of time over vast distances this was never a problem, they just fit the Church year into their natural cycle and doubled up saint's days where appropriate. But now displaced they struggle with our short days and long year and adjusting their calendar to ours.  It has been a divisive issue.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2011, 06:38:12 PM »
How has their valiant struggle against the damnable heresy of Mhsjdkeonjpleism been going?

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2011, 07:04:41 PM »
How has their valiant struggle against the damnable heresy of Mhsjdkeonjpleism been going?

That heresy has died down a bit. It is no longer widely believed that Christ was capable of mhsjdkeonjpleic willing.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 07:09:58 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #76 on: December 27, 2011, 07:05:47 PM »
I <3 you guys.
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #77 on: December 27, 2011, 07:39:45 PM »
Quote
Can they then be absorbed into another jurisdiction, or should they be granted their own national charter and everything?

That will depend on how they resolve their jurisdictional issues. Their native year is only 4/5ths as long as our year, but their days are longer which means they have more services per day. Given the slipperiness of time over vast distances this was never a problem, they just fit the Church year into their natural cycle and doubled up saint's days where appropriate. But now displaced they struggle with our short days and long year and adjusting their calendar to ours.  It has been a divisive issue.

Not to mention those who want to sneak in the heresy of time travel to the mix!!
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline serb1389

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Re: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers
« Reply #78 on: December 27, 2011, 08:34:04 PM »
Ok ladies and gentlemen.  Enough with the Random Topics issues.  Either you discuss the OP or you will be warned.  While this HAS been fun, you can either start your own thread, or continue this in the Random Topics thread. 

 :police: :police: :police: :police: :police: :police: :police: :police: :police: :police: :police:
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