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Author Topic: Lutheran theologian says aliens can be believers  (Read 4628 times) Average Rating: 0
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Volnutt
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« on: October 10, 2011, 02:42:27 PM »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/10/theologian-says-religious_n_998508.html

You can even take his survey as to whether the discovering of intelligent life would destroy your faith. Anyway, the outcome is it that it's the non-religious who tend to think alien contact would destroy peoples' faith.

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2011, 02:46:08 PM »

In before unimaginative fellows from ROCOR cite Fr. Seraphim of Platina in this thread.  police
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 02:49:04 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2011, 02:48:49 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 02:50:06 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2011, 02:53:53 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
I wonder if the medievals thought they were humans who happened to have dog heads or an entirely different "species."
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Volnutt
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 02:55:27 PM »

In before unimaginative fellows from ROCOR cite Fr. Seraphim of Platina in this thread.  police
Good point. It should be noted, this has nothing at all with alleged UFO sightings, it's about the possibility of what is out there.
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 02:55:36 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
I wonder if the medievals thought they were humans who happened to have dog heads or an entirely different "species."
Or both.
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 03:20:33 PM »

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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 03:27:05 PM »

In before unimaginative fellows from ROCOR cite Fr. Seraphim of Platina in this thread.  police

Fr. Seraphim said that aliens are really just demons, but I think the real question is what calendar are they on?
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2011, 03:29:46 PM »

If aliens exist as we think of them in science-fiction, sensient beings, they will be humans in the broad sense of the word, even if they have tentacles instead of legs and arms, and therefore, fallen.

But I'm not optimistic about this. If they exist, it means that either no species has achieved interstellar/intergallatic travel capability, or that it is, in fact, impossible for biological organisms.

My leanings, though, are with the Rare Earth hypothesis. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis )

I might concede alien races *with* the Rare Earth hypothesis if we take into account the possibility of a Multiverse. Aliens would exist in other universes and that would be the source of the difficulty in communication.

*If* we are the only intelligent race in this universe - as I guess we are - then, the *whole* universe is ours to explore. If that is the case, "taking the Gospel to all nations" actually mean spreading it, literally, through all the inhabitable worlds in the universe and even those that can be made inhabitable through terraformation. If the Day of Judgment will come only after that, than current calculations of the scientists for the death of the universe may allow for a "human diaspora" throughout the Universe before that.
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2011, 05:00:36 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  police
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2011, 05:02:22 PM »

My leanings, though, are with the Rare Earth hypothesis. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis )

I agree.

Still, Salvation is not just for man, but for the entire cosmos, and that includes aliens (though the atonement for sins is specific to humans, as Volnutt points out). But I am not holding my breath that they exist, nor do I much care. There are a thousand good reasons to explore space, but looking for aliens is not one of them, IMO.
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2011, 05:07:51 PM »

My leanings, though, are with the Rare Earth hypothesis. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis )

I agree.

Still, Salvation is not just for man, but for the entire cosmos, and that includes aliens (though the atonement for sins is specific to humans, as Volnutt points out). But I am not holding my breath that they exist, nor do I much care. There are a thousand good reasons to explore space, but looking for aliens is not one of them, IMO.

Well, if they exist, if they are intelligent moral beings with free will, then they would fit the concept of human, which would have to be broadened from our species. If there are aliens with the traits I mentioned, I think they would have fallen souls in need of salvation.
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2011, 05:08:28 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  police

This:

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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2011, 05:10:14 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  police

This:



Where did you find that?
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2011, 05:12:02 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
Could you explain the origin of your avatar a bit?
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2011, 05:34:17 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
Could you explain the origin of your avatar a bit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynocephaly
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2011, 05:38:19 PM »

I can't even believe people are discussing this. The God-blessed and thrice-blessed Fathers already dealt with space aliens at the 6th Ecumenical Council...

"If, however, there be anyone in the world who does not care to hold and embrace the aforesaid dogmas of piety, and believe and preach thus, but, on the contrary, attempts to by-pass them, let him be anathema, in accordance with the definition (or rule) already previously promulgated by the aforesaid holy and blissful Fathers, and let him be erased and expunged from the Christian Roll like an alien, and as one not belonging to our faith." - Trullo, Canon 1

BAM!
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2011, 05:47:26 PM »

The God-blessed and thrice-blessed
Where did the thrice-blessing come from if not God?

expunged from the Christian Roll
A little leaven leavens the whole roll.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 05:48:07 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2011, 06:01:25 PM »

The God-blessed and thrice-blessed
Where did the thrice-blessing come from if not God?

The thrice-blessing is indeed from God. And since God is three persons, the first blessing mentioned is also a triple blessing. Some assume from this that there are 6 blessings, and since 6 is the number of man, that this indicates that it is a blessing from the God-man. This is not so. Instead, you don't add the blessings, but multiply: 3 x 3 = 9. But what is 9? Now you must divide by 2, for it was given through two blessings. Thus we get 4 1/2. Now this is where it gets speculative. Some think that the 4 1/2 stands for the Four Gospels, with Acts being the 1/2 since it was not a Gospel yet was a continuation of the story. Others, however, say that 4 1/2 is meant to symbolize fulness, for there are 4 winds and 4 pillars that the earth sits on and 4 edges of the world, so adding a 1/2 is like saying "all that and more, baby!"  It's like a symbol for everything that is, and maybe a smidgen more.
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2011, 06:24:12 PM »

selam to all  Grin


although I am going to qoute my brother nicholas, what i have to say is for whom it may concern  police

In before unimaginative fellows from ROCOR cite Fr. Seraphim of Platina in this thread.  police


Since when did it become fashionable among the orthodox to ridicule the long existing belief that the lord created mankind as we know it today and angels as intelligent beings? or for the speculation that insinuates the theology that includes alien intelligent life to be more acceptable theology of Christianity? Oh include the young vs. Old earth theology controversy in this also. When it comes to our salivation both sides can believe either side of the argument and still benefit from their faith in Christ Crucified for humanity. So our redemption story is not dependant on the age of the earth or the presence of aliens or not. However there are among us those who believe one is wrong and the other one is right, and still others who believe accepting one is in contradiction to what has been reveled and believed as true in the church. No matter, I believe those who have a new found knowledge that allowed them to be ‘free thinkers’ if they are to maintain the mind of Christ  which the apostle tells us we should , avoid being puffed up over their ‘ none free thinking  set in their ways’ brethren. If we are to present an idea , or even a fact, let us do it in charity, not in disdain , contempt  and ridicule  towards our brethren, as the apostle have said knowledge puffs up but love builds up. Surely we can agree to disagree on certain things without losing our basic Christian ethics and hurling words that would harm our brethren for whom our Lord died for. Let us prioritize, IMO certain things are not worth losing our brethren over. So dial down that particular tone. and I say this for all sides, those that cry heretics or those that say ignorants. you are free to disagree with me ofc Cool

Having said all that lol which might get me some rotten tomatoes from some  and hopefuly which I will accept as gracefully as possible lol Undecided in simplest terms I think that if intelligent aliens exist our God will provide for them in all their needs, spiritual or physical. He is never far from His creation. As the lord did not need to become an angel for the angelic hosts to be united to him, salvation to the aliens does not need to necessarily call for the incarnation as ours did. Therefore it will not make me lose my faith or increase it in some way, to find that they exist.

selam for all. Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2011, 08:27:32 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  police

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  Tongue

But, seriously...where did you find that?
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2011, 08:30:30 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.
According to the Fathers, humans are creatures that possess a body, mind, noetic faculty and spirit... or something like that. In any case, aliens could easily fall under many Patristic definitions of humanity.

See my avatar for an example.
I wonder if the medievals thought they were humans who happened to have dog heads or an entirely different "species."
Or both.
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2011, 08:39:31 PM »


He is descended from Adam, not exactly alien.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2011, 08:41:21 PM »

This:

Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  Tongue

But, seriously...where did you find that?

History Channel? It wouldn't suprise me if it was.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2011, 08:46:49 PM »


He is descended from Adam, not exactly alien.
But he's Homo Superior, not Homo Sapiens.
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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2011, 08:52:13 PM »

I'm still trying to determine if that automobile in the snowbank *really* had 4WD.
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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2011, 09:28:58 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  police

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  Tongue

But, seriously...where did you find that?

Benjamin, I was trying to decide what to name our gray man icon before i forwarded it to those who might get a kick out of this, that name was off the chain!! thank you !! Grin mine was not as original as you, ever watched the Star gate as often as i do? well ' St.Thor Supreme Commander of the Asgard Fleet,of the galaxy of Ida, defender of the Fifth Race from the heretical council of the Goa'uld' Grin
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2011, 09:30:37 PM »

Stargate, nice, Hiwot!

He looks quite fetching, I have to say.
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2011, 09:32:09 PM »

I'm still trying to determine if that automobile in the snowbank *really* had 4WD.

Wha...?  Why must you attack this righteous man at every turn? Does your audacious envy know no end?
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2011, 09:33:38 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  police

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  Tongue

But, seriously...where did you find that?

Benjamin, I was trying to decide what to name our gray man icon before i forwarded it to those who might get a kick out of this, that name was off the chain!! thank you !! Grin mine was not as original as you, ever watched the Star gate as often as i do? well ' St.Thor Supreme Commander of the Asgard Fleet,of the galaxy of Ida, defender of the Fifth Race from the heretical council of the Goa'uld' Grin

Lol. Awesome, Hiwot! Gimme a minute and I'll write up a hagiography. Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2011, 09:44:48 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  police

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  Tongue

But, seriously...where did you find that?

Benjamin, I was trying to decide what to name our gray man icon before i forwarded it to those who might get a kick out of this, that name was off the chain!! thank you !! Grin mine was not as original as you, ever watched the Star gate as often as i do? well ' St.Thor Supreme Commander of the Asgard Fleet,of the galaxy of Ida, defender of the Fifth Race from the heretical council of the Goa'uld' Grin

Hiwot breaking serious Stargate knowledgez.

There are so many jokes here I don't know where to begin.

Probably not in this thread.
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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2011, 09:53:41 PM »

 Grin I am glad I am not the only Stargate junkie up in here.LOL
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« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2011, 10:21:15 PM »

Stargate blows. Just thought I'd contribute to the discussion by mentioning that.

Now Farscape, that was a good show.
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« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2011, 10:33:41 PM »

I don't see how there could an atonement for intelligent aliens Biblicaly unless they're humans, seeing as how Christ did not die for angels either.

Oh snap, people are thinking about this stuff some more, what's going to happen?  police

This:



Our Father Among the Saints Qvuulientalii'i the Confessor, Bishop of Xyykiti.  Tongue

But, seriously...where did you find that?


From this site in Portuguese: http://oprofeta.net/?p=3920  

It talks about some declarations from an astronomer priest in the Vatican that life would soon be found in other planets.

You can see related news here (without Bishop Qvuulientalii'i): http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/17/pope-astronomer-baptise-aliens
(by the way, the astronomer's POV is similar to mine on this issue)
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« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2011, 10:53:22 PM »

I had that Alien Christ icon as my avatar before, but was asked to have it removed.

Anyway, I'm more interested to see how the worldwide population would react to alien encounters.
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« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2011, 11:05:47 PM »

I had that Alien Christ icon as my avatar before, but was asked to have it removed.

Anyway, I'm more interested to see how the worldwide population would react to alien encounters.

In accordance with premise of the film, "Knowing" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0448011/), we won't have much time to react to said encounters! Turn up Beethoven's Seventh, because it's all over.  Tongue
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« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2011, 12:02:35 PM »

Earth is missionary territory.
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« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2011, 12:25:27 PM »

Earth is missionary territory.


Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....
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« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2011, 12:37:19 PM »

Earth is missionary territory.


Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....

Interesting title, that's for sure. "His All-Holiness Michael LXXVIII, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome, Metropolitan of All Earth, and Ecumenical Patriarch."  Shocked

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« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2011, 12:49:27 PM »

Earth is missionary territory.


Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....

Interesting title, that's for sure. "His All-Holiness Michael LXXVIII, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome, Metropolitan of All Earth, and Ecumenical Patriarch."  Shocked



Plot hook... would he consider all the Orthodox on the other planet to be under his jurisdiction since they are all a kind of diaspora? Do "barbaric lands" include other planets? Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2011, 01:04:37 PM »

Earth is missionary territory.
Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....
Interesting title, that's for sure. "His All-Holiness Michael LXXVIII, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome, Metropolitan of All Earth, and Ecumenical Patriarch."  Shocked
Plot hook... would he consider all the Orthodox on the other planet to be under his jurisdiction since they are all a kind of diaspora? Do "barbaric lands" include other planets? Smiley

Gives new meaning to "universal bishop".
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« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2011, 01:07:46 PM »

Earth is missionary territory.


Interestingly, in an Orthodoxy-related space saga, where humanity has ventured into interstellar travel and colonized other planets, we would probably see all the original patriarchates collapse into a Patriarchate of Earth, while the "local" most traditional jurisdictions would be the Patriarch of Mars, Patriarch of Titan, Patriarch of Moon and the new ones would be the patriarchates of the new exo-Earths. Hmmm.....

Interesting title, that's for sure. "His All-Holiness Michael LXXVIII, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome, Metropolitan of All Earth, and Ecumenical Patriarch."  Shocked



Plot hook... would he consider all the Orthodox on the other planet to be under his jurisdiction since they are all a kind of diaspora? Do "barbaric lands" include other planets? Smiley

He would! But the Patriarch of Olympus Mons and All Mars would claim to be the Second Earth, ever since the Marsian terraforming was complete and Earth has been significantly drained of natural resources. Obviously, this makes Mars now the capital of humanity, with its new resources and growing population. Therefore the Marsian Patriarchate would officially advocate itself as the new Ecumenical Patriarchate and seek to hold its exoplanetary territories, since they were the first to missionize them, and they were at the time politically held as colonies of Mars, not Earth.
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« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2011, 01:16:23 PM »

When they get here they are going to ask for directions to the nearest Blessed Sacrament chapel.
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« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2011, 02:05:53 PM »

Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
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« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2011, 02:31:00 PM »

Wouldn't it be ironic if the aliens, on whose appearance some atheists put their best hopes of demoralizing Christianity once and for all, said they were afraid of contacting humans directly out of religious respect? "You are the species through which our prophets said the whole multiverse is saved. For us you are a sacred race. We could not simply come and touch the temple where the Creator dwells physically without fear and humility. This entire planet is an altar."
So you're saying that the Magi were aliens?
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