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Author Topic: What's Wrong With This (The Nine Chapters)?  (Read 949 times) Average Rating: 0
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Severian
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« on: October 07, 2011, 04:25:54 PM »

What's wrong with this confession? It seems very similar to what St. Severus said about Christ's energeia. I heard it was condemned by the Chalcedonians...

[....and that one and the same Christ and Son performed things befitting God and things human] by one theandric activity, according to Dionysios [now] among the saints, distinguishing in contemplation alone the elements from which the union came about, and mentally considering these as remaining without change and without confusion after their natural and hypostatic union, and recognizing in these the one and the same Christ and Son without confusion and without separation, as he mentally considers the two to be brought together mutually without confusion, holding the contemplation of them as a matter of reality and not of lying illusion, but he does not seperate them in any way, since the rending into two has already been undone because of the union which is ineffable and unconfused and inconceivable, saying according to holy Athanasius: "At the one time is flesh, at the one time is the flesh of God the Word; at the one time there is flesh ensouled and rational, at the one time there is the flesh of God the Word endowed with a rational soul;' but takes such an expression as dividing into parts, let him be anathema.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 04:26:16 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2011, 04:34:04 PM »

What's the whole confession?

I have it somewhere but don't have that book to hand. Where are you getting it from?
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Severian
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2011, 04:38:40 PM »

What's the whole confession?

I have it somewhere but don't have that book to hand. Where are you getting it from?
I found it in this thread. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find the rest of the Chapters.
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2011, 05:08:50 PM »

I do not think we can convict Cyrus and others of heresy if he truly taught one theandric will and energeia.
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2011, 01:38:23 AM »

Here are two other chapters from the Pact of Union (which I got from the same thread):

Article of Faith VIII
If someone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedoinius, Apollinaris the hereitc, Nestorius, Eutyches of ill-repute, and Cyrus and John and Aegeotas and all who in whatever way, contradict the Twelve Chapters of the most holy Cyrill, and do not repent, but die in such error, and those who thought or think like them, let him be anathema.

Article of Faith IX
If someone does not anathematize the writings of Theodoret which are contrary to the right Faith of Cyril [now] among the saints, and the so-called Letter of Ibas, and Theodore of Mopsuestia and his writings, and if someone does not accept the writings of holy Cyril, and especially those against Thedore and Theodoret, and Andrew, and Nestorius and those who have thought or think like them or one of them, let him be anathema.


I think the problem with some Chalcedonians is that they so radically insist on a duality of energies, natures, and wills that they exclude other equally orthodox modes of Christological expression. Had the imperial Church accepted "one theandric will and energy" we might have reunited long ago.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 01:42:59 AM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2011, 02:20:21 AM »

Had the imperial Church accepted "one theandric will and energy" we might have reunited long ago.
But there were people pushing "one (mono) will and energy". The two Christologies are fine, yeah. But it's tough to mix em.
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2011, 02:28:58 AM »

Had the imperial Church accepted "one theandric will and energy" we might have reunited long ago.
But there were people pushing "one (mono) will and energy". The two Christologies are fine, yeah. But it's tough to mix em.
The preamble of Constantinople III's definition condemns St. Severus as "blasphemously representing his (Christ's) flesh as devoid of will or operation". However, in his work "Against the Impious Grammarian" St. Severus quite clearly affirms one Theandric energeia, he also confess two integral components of willing in Chirst. This makes me wonder how many Chalcedonians were truly "monothelites/monoenergists" rather than miathelites/miaenergists.

It was mentioned on another thread that Maximus of Constantinople accepted the Pseudo-Dionysian formulae "new God-man energy" so long as one did not confess true monoenergism.

He seems like an interesting character (I.e. Maximus), I would like to get my hands on some of his works on the wills/energies in Christ our God.
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 04:58:21 AM »

--bump--

Like I said, this passage is consistent with St. Severus' teaching that there is one united operation/energy within the Incarnate Word. Some actions of the Word are brought about by virtue of His possession of a human operation (e.g. suffering, hunger, fear, sleeping, etc.), some are brought about by His possession of the Divine operation (e.g. sustaining the universe, creating souls, judging mankind, etc.), and some are brought about by His possession of the two operations concurrently energizing in the one hypostasis (e.g. healing with human saliva). However, all activities are performed by the one Word Incarnate who possesses one theandric operation/energy.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 05:09:11 AM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2012, 05:20:10 AM »

I am discussing this in some very great detail with some EO monks, and have been for some time, and I hope that the outcome will be some useful and helpful materials describing the agreement in faith of Severus and Maximus.

I disagree very much with Maximus' understanding of Severus (which I think is very deficient for a variety of reasons) but his positive description of what he believes is truly essentially the same as that of Severus.
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Severian
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2012, 06:46:53 AM »

^Father bless and thank you for sharing. Jnorm from an older thread cited a source from a Chalcedonian scholar who said the same thing, that is, Maximus agreed with St. Severus' theology even though he quite often condemned him. How do these Monks view our Church and the EO-OO dialogues in general? I tried making a thread on the private forum a while back to see the perspective of EO Monastics concerning the joint commissions, but it was derailed by trolls.
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2012, 10:22:41 AM »

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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2012, 10:54:16 AM »

I am no longer convinced that very much of lasting value can take place on an open forum. Which is sad, but is my continuing experience.

I have been working with a particular monk, and there is no need to name him or his jurisdiction, for some months continually now, and on and off for a couple of years of acquaintance. But most deeply over the last couple of months. I think that we are personally agreed that we have the same faith even to a very detailed level, and that we believe that both of our communions are Orthodox.

The more we study the more we are convinced. And we have not been at all hesitant in expressing those concerns which we have at every stage.

I think that my view of the Dialogue is that it is incomplete. But I also think that much more work should be being done by small groups of sympathetic and eirenic Orthodox who are able to do the leg work that most of our bishops are not able to do in any extensive manner. They are generally too busy.
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2012, 04:42:58 PM »

Maybe the Imperial Church didn't state it explicitly because it seemed obvious?

One is the person of Christ, the God-man, who has two natures, fully God and fully man, without mixture or confusion or separation, who has a divine will and a human will, but is not opposed to himself, there being no conflict between his wills.

I don't know. It makes my head hurt.
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