Author Topic: Steve Jobs' Spirituality  (Read 4482 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Wyatt

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,457
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Latin Church
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2011, 10:13:06 PM »
Let's hope God isn't a Microsoft fan.

Actually, you can use Windows as your operating system on an Macintosh computer, so that's really the same as with any other computer, since Microsoft only makes software, not hardware. Never mind the fact that Macs actually give a better performance with Windows than any other hardware manufacturer.
I love how this is turning into one of those Mac vs. PC discussions.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,574
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2011, 08:36:54 AM »
Back from recess.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2011, 08:38:33 AM »
I didn't realize that he was a Buddhist. Interesting. Very interesting.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline leap of faith

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2011, 08:46:06 AM »
I didn't realize that he was a Buddhist. Interesting. Very interesting.

I assumed it once I heard a speech he gave to a graduating class when he spoke a line against the need for "dogmas" in our lives.  Red flag.  The westernized version of Buddhism is very much like the westernized version of Christianity, making it more palatable to the masses by emptying it of its foundational so-called truthes...or Truth, as the case may be.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2011, 08:51:08 AM »
I didn't realize that he was a Buddhist. Interesting. Very interesting.

I assumed it once I heard a speech he gave to a graduating class when he spoke a line against the need for "dogmas" in our lives.  Red flag.  The westernized version of Buddhism is very much like the westernized version of Christianity, making it more palatable to the masses by emptying it of its foundational so-called truthes...or Truth, as the case may be.

I think you're referring to his Stanford speech, in 2005, which read, in part:

"No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.
 
Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.
"
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Iconodule

  • Uranopolitan
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,027
  • "My god is greater."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2011, 08:54:27 AM »
I didn't realize that he was a Buddhist. Interesting. Very interesting.

I assumed it once I heard a speech he gave to a graduating class when he spoke a line against the need for "dogmas" in our lives.  Red flag.  The westernized version of Buddhism is very much like the westernized version of Christianity, making it more palatable to the masses by emptying it of its foundational so-called truthes...or Truth, as the case may be.

I think you're referring to his Stanford speech, in 2005, which read, in part:

"No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.
 
Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.
"

Buddhism is quite possibly the most dogmatic religion in the world, by which I mean its doctrine is highly detailed, explicit, and systematic in a way that makes Christian scholasticism look downright sloppy.

But then there's business-exec "Zen" which I guess entails sitting in lotus position while thinking up new paths toward productivity, profit, etc.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 08:55:25 AM by Iconodule »

Offline Alpo

  • Lying Chalcedonian Liar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,836
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2011, 10:12:57 AM »
Buddhism is quite possibly the most dogmatic religion in the world, by which I mean its doctrine is highly detailed, explicit, and systematic in a way that makes Christian scholasticism look downright sloppy.

You weren't supposed to bring that up! That's not fair! You're spoiling a fine speech and ruining cool spiritual aura that Far Eastern religions have in the West. :(
Quote from: Severian
the people on this forum have to stop taking themselves so seriously. None of us are some modern-day Athanasius, we all just have nothing better to do.

Offline Ebor

  • Vanyar
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,492
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2011, 09:51:18 AM »
Buddhism is quite possibly the most dogmatic religion in the world, by which I mean its doctrine is highly detailed, explicit, and systematic in a way that makes Christian scholasticism look downright sloppy.

But then there's business-exec "Zen" which I guess entails sitting in lotus position while thinking up new paths toward productivity, profit, etc.

Could you expand on this and give some examples, please?  Your idea is intriguing, but I would like to understand what you mean more clearly.

Ebor
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.

Offline Iconodule

  • Uranopolitan
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,027
  • "My god is greater."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2011, 08:50:13 AM »
Buddhism is quite possibly the most dogmatic religion in the world, by which I mean its doctrine is highly detailed, explicit, and systematic in a way that makes Christian scholasticism look downright sloppy.

But then there's business-exec "Zen" which I guess entails sitting in lotus position while thinking up new paths toward productivity, profit, etc.

Could you expand on this and give some examples, please?  Your idea is intriguing, but I would like to understand what you mean more clearly.

Ebor

I'm assuming you're asking about the "scholastic" aspect of Buddhism. Starting with the sutras, Buddhist teaching tends to be presented is a very schematic fashion, e.g. the Four Noble Truths, the five skandhas, the six realms of samsara, etc. Some Western Buddhists have tried to frame the Buddha's teaching on karma and rebirth as either a) mere metaphor or b)  superfluous cultural baggage, but this is quickly dispelled by a cursory reading of the sutras where an incredibly detailed and systematic description of different kinds of karma and resultant rebirth is laid out. The presentations of this sort are often exhaustive to a point of tedium, though the "hell realms" and "hungry ghosts" can make for fun reading. Likewise one will find systematic presentations of mental states, objects of contemplation, etc. Buddhist doctrine was further systematized with the Abhidharma literature. These tendencies carried over to Tibet, China, Japan, etc. who developed their own scholastic systems such as the Tibetan lam-rim.  

This picture doesn't gel well with the perception of Buddhism as a non-dogmatic freethinkers religion. That perception came out of a lot of Buddhist, especially Chan/Zen, literature being presented in the West out of context. For example, when Zen masters urge their disciples to abandon the scriptures, they are speaking to a society where the Buddhist scriptures have been widely studied/ disseminated and the basic doctrines are widely understood. And in fact all the teachings considered unique to Zen are traceable to scriptures and schools of thought originating in India and make a lot more sense to someone familiar with those origins. But Western "Zen" practitioners took the "outside the scriptures" quotes as a license to fabricate what is essentially a ritualized self-help philosophy.

Western Buddhists though who are looking for more genuine Buddhism will find it more likely in the fairly uncompromising Tibetan and Chinese centers where the scholastic and liturgical qualities tend to remain intact.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 08:51:42 AM by Iconodule »

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2011, 09:14:48 AM »
Western Buddhists though who are looking for more genuine Buddhism will find it more likely in the fairly uncompromising Tibetan and Chinese centers....
...or in the Thai Forest tradition.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 09:15:10 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,434
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,217
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2011, 12:57:28 PM »
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,834
  • Faith: Serbian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of New Gracanica
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2011, 01:41:04 PM »
Let's hope God isn't a Microsoft fan.

Actually, you can use Windows as your operating system on an Macintosh computer, so that's really the same as with any other computer, since Microsoft only makes software, not hardware. Never mind the fact that Macs actually give a better performance with Windows than any other hardware manufacturer.
I love how this is turning into one of those Mac vs. PC discussions.

That is the basis of most religions.  Good vs Evil.  These are just the incarnations of the machine-god that we have been shown.

Edit - In case I was unclear, PC's are the Good and Mac is the Bad.  Linux isn't as user friendly so they get to be the Ugly.  Which is OK.  I liked Tuco.  He had some good lines.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 01:42:19 PM by vamrat »
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline MCE

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2011, 04:03:52 AM »
Libelous charges against Steve Wozniak removed from post by moderator  -PtA


You did not post substantiation of your libelous charges against Steve Wozniak within the time frame I allotted you, so you are hereby muted indefinitely for libel. If you feel this action unfair, please appeal it to Fr. George.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 01:56:49 PM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline Irish Melkite

  • Information Mongeror
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
    • Byzantine Forum
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2011, 06:21:45 PM »
Im sure you'll think differently when publisher's Clearing house shows up at your door.

Are they (PCH) Christians? I'm wondering, because they're at the door now and I don't want to accep the check if they're Buddhists.
"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2011, 06:38:11 PM »
Im sure you'll think differently when publisher's Clearing house shows up at your door.

Are they (PCH) Christians? I'm wondering, because they're at the door now and I don't want to accep the check if they're Buddhists.
You don't accept money from Buddhists?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Irish Melkite

  • Information Mongeror
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
    • Byzantine Forum
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2011, 08:12:05 PM »
Im sure you'll think differently when publisher's Clearing house shows up at your door.

Are they (PCH) Christians? I'm wondering, because they're at the door now and I don't want to accep the check if they're Buddhists.
You don't accept money from Buddhists?

Not a chance. MCE has already filled us in on what associating with Buddhism did for Steve  ::)
"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory

Offline IsmiLiora

  • Chronic Exaggerator
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,434
  • Back by unpopular demand.
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2011, 08:14:35 PM »
Im sure you'll think differently when publisher's Clearing house shows up at your door.

Are they (PCH) Christians? I'm wondering, because they're at the door now and I don't want to accep the check if they're Buddhists.
You don't accept money from Buddhists?
:o Even if a group of Mexican men with "Zs" tattooed on their faces came to my door with a million dollar check, I'm not asking any questions!
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2011, 09:02:18 PM »
The Last Words of Steve Jobs:

Quote
He told me, when he was saying goodbye and telling me he was sorry, so sorry we wouldn’t be able to be old together as we’d always planned, that he was going to a better place.

Dr. Fischer gave him a 50/50 chance of making it through the night.

He made it through the night, Laurene next to him on the bed sometimes jerked up when there was a longer pause between his breaths. She and I looked at each other, then he would heave a deep breath and begin again.

This had to be done. Even now, he had a stern, still handsome profile, the profile of an absolutist, a romantic. His breath indicated an arduous journey, some steep path, altitude.

He seemed to be climbing.

But with that will, that work ethic, that strength, there was also sweet Steve’s capacity for wonderment, the artist’s belief in the ideal, the still more beautiful later.

Steve’s final words, hours earlier, were monosyllables, repeated three times.

Before embarking, he’d looked at his sister Patty, then for a long time at his children, then at his life’s partner, Laurene, and then over their shoulders past them.

Steve’s final words were:

OH WOW. OH WOW. OH WOW.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Irish Melkite

  • Information Mongeror
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
    • Byzantine Forum
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2011, 09:47:58 PM »
Memory eternal!
"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,615
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2011, 12:27:05 AM »
The Last Words of Steve Jobs:

Quote
He told me, when he was saying goodbye and telling me he was sorry, so sorry we wouldn’t be able to be old together as we’d always planned, that he was going to a better place.

Dr. Fischer gave him a 50/50 chance of making it through the night.

He made it through the night, Laurene next to him on the bed sometimes jerked up when there was a longer pause between his breaths. She and I looked at each other, then he would heave a deep breath and begin again.

This had to be done. Even now, he had a stern, still handsome profile, the profile of an absolutist, a romantic. His breath indicated an arduous journey, some steep path, altitude.

He seemed to be climbing.

But with that will, that work ethic, that strength, there was also sweet Steve’s capacity for wonderment, the artist’s belief in the ideal, the still more beautiful later.

Steve’s final words, hours earlier, were monosyllables, repeated three times.

Before embarking, he’d looked at his sister Patty, then for a long time at his children, then at his life’s partner, Laurene, and then over their shoulders past them.

Steve’s final words were:

OH WOW. OH WOW. OH WOW.

What a powerful article. I don't quite know what to make of it. I pray that, perhaps, he may even have been working out his salvation in those last hours. We may never know, but we should pray. Lord have mercy.

Offline MCE

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2011, 12:37:13 AM »
I hope so too. I am sure some people prayed for him
while he was sick, maybe Christ met him at the end
and he accepted Him.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,373
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2011, 02:02:38 PM »
The posts containing discussion of MCE's criminal allegations against Steve Wozniak have been moved to Purgatory, a location to which only the admins and mods have access.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 02:05:34 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2011, 12:50:07 PM »
Are you a lackey of theirs? Your masters must be benevolent and magnanimous to have earned your devotion like this.

Christ's good friend, Lazarus, was a rich man. Jesus must have been some lackey to raise him from the dead!

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,363
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2011, 01:46:52 PM »
Buddhism is quite possibly the most dogmatic religion in the world, by which I mean its doctrine is highly detailed, explicit, and systematic in a way that makes Christian scholasticism look downright sloppy.

But then there's business-exec "Zen" which I guess entails sitting in lotus position while thinking up new paths toward productivity, profit, etc.

Could you expand on this and give some examples, please?  Your idea is intriguing, but I would like to understand what you mean more clearly.

Ebor

I'm assuming you're asking about the "scholastic" aspect of Buddhism. Starting with the sutras, Buddhist teaching tends to be presented is a very schematic fashion, e.g. the Four Noble Truths, the five skandhas, the six realms of samsara, etc. Some Western Buddhists have tried to frame the Buddha's teaching on karma and rebirth as either a) mere metaphor or b)  superfluous cultural baggage, but this is quickly dispelled by a cursory reading of the sutras where an incredibly detailed and systematic description of different kinds of karma and resultant rebirth is laid out. The presentations of this sort are often exhaustive to a point of tedium, though the "hell realms" and "hungry ghosts" can make for fun reading. Likewise one will find systematic presentations of mental states, objects of contemplation, etc. Buddhist doctrine was further systematized with the Abhidharma literature. These tendencies carried over to Tibet, China, Japan, etc. who developed their own scholastic systems such as the Tibetan lam-rim.  

This picture doesn't gel well with the perception of Buddhism as a non-dogmatic freethinkers religion. That perception came out of a lot of Buddhist, especially Chan/Zen, literature being presented in the West out of context. For example, when Zen masters urge their disciples to abandon the scriptures, they are speaking to a society where the Buddhist scriptures have been widely studied/ disseminated and the basic doctrines are widely understood. And in fact all the teachings considered unique to Zen are traceable to scriptures and schools of thought originating in India and make a lot more sense to someone familiar with those origins. But Western "Zen" practitioners took the "outside the scriptures" quotes as a license to fabricate what is essentially a ritualized self-help philosophy.

Western Buddhists though who are looking for more genuine Buddhism will find it more likely in the fairly uncompromising Tibetan and Chinese centers where the scholastic and liturgical qualities tend to remain intact.

Post of Last Month!
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Steve Jobs' Spirituality
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2011, 09:20:28 AM »
Quote
Many people have been asking me of late if Steve Jobs really was a Buddhist. The answer is yes, and for many years.

He was a Zen Buddhist, which inspired his simple, informal, monkish black dress code and the meticulously minimalist yet elegant consumer products he so ingeniously designed. If you look at Vincent van Gogh's self-portrait as a Zen monk you'll find many similarities with that other famously difficult creative genius.
....
Some wonder exactly what kind of Buddhist could be so famously impatient, rude and demanding. How could he be so emotional, even throwing tantrums? Relentlessly stubborn, he could be brutal to close friends, family and colleagues, act ruthlessly in both business and personal affairs and claim credit for others' ideas. Speaking as a fellow Buddhist, albeit of a different lineage, I have no easy answer or apology to offer for him in this respect. I think his having been adopted played into it -- the master of design simplicity had some very messy elements of his personal life. We teach what we need to learn, as the saying goes.

Maybe that's why this very complex and even contradictory personality so assiduously sought and loved simplicity.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.