OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 20, 2014, 09:04:10 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Bad jobs  (Read 7506 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,821


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2011, 10:57:02 AM »

Quote
Who has the greater sin? The pole dancer trying to earn enough money to feed her children, or those who, having the power to rescue her from the circumstances that force her to sell herself, do nothing?

So your ability to judge only swings one way?
I'm not aware that we're called to judge people.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,460



« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2011, 11:06:06 AM »

Quote
Who has the greater sin? The pole dancer trying to earn enough money to feed her children, or those who, having the power to rescue her from the circumstances that force her to sell herself, do nothing?

So your ability to judge only swings one way?
I'm not aware that we're called to judge people.

What about Matt. 7? That clearly says to judge...
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,033


« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2011, 12:09:59 PM »

As a teenager, I sold gourmet cheese to snobs for about a month. Got canned because I couldn't fake my way through fancy wine and cheese pairings convincingly enough (when you're not a drinker, it's hard to know what to say when they ask what will go with their year 1930 something-or-other). I tried to take notes even, but with 80+ cheeses and an even greater number of wines (living in "wine country", N. California and all), I just couldn't put it all together fast enough.

It's probably for the best. The owner was quite unbalanced (a bit of a "soup nazi" of the cheese world, she used to tell people who would ask for pepperjack or other "common" cheeses to leave, then talk badly about them once they'd left) and that whole lifestyle just doesn't fit me. So many people picking out food for fancy parties on boats...  Undecided

What's this thread about? Stripping? That might've made me feel slightly less self-conscious...
Logged

FantaLimon
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 46


Inquirer


« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2011, 02:37:41 PM »

Let's say the woman danced because she liked to turn men on.

Show of hands who thinks they are better than her?


Raise your hand if you think you are better than those who think they are better than a woman who dances to turn men on.


Selam


Wait... what?   laugh
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:37:54 PM by FantaLimon » Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2011, 02:40:58 PM »

Even myself don'ty trust pasadi however I trust God.
The idea is that to save yourself you must try also to save your neighbour. Everything you do to your neighbour you do to yourself.

Anyhow the way to escape bad jobs is to put money in the bank of God that returns 100$ for every 1$. This is not easy. Even if you know it, even if it is at your fingers you may not do it. To do it is good to pray that is to ask God for help:

Dear God please save me and please save everybody and please bring Creation back to a state without sin. Please give myself enough to have what I need, what you know that I need and also to give to my neighbour and make me take it and give a part to my neighbour. Please let me know the truth about all religions and bring me and my neighbour to best religion in your eyes. Amen.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:42:07 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2011, 04:32:00 PM »

2. There is a very powerfull prayer for the intercession of Mother of God that one monk told me. The name of the prayer is in Romanian "Paraclisul Maicii Domnului" When I needed something I would say it several times.

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."  Matthew 6:7

Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2011, 04:51:15 PM »

A general question for this thread: does something have to be literally true for it to have didactic value? 
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,460



« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2011, 04:57:35 PM »

A general question for this thread: does something have to be literally true for it to have didactic value? 

Oddly enough I have heard people argue for the idea that every story in the Bible has to be literally/historically true. So, for example, they will say that parables of Jesus had to really happen, because Christ would be lying and using deception if he was making them up.
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2011, 05:25:39 PM »

Quote
Who has the greater sin? The pole dancer trying to earn enough money to feed her children, or those who, having the power to rescue her from the circumstances that force her to sell herself, do nothing?

So your ability to judge only swings one way?
I'm not aware that we're called to judge people.

What about Matt. 7? That clearly says to judge...

Expressing sound judgement because it's your office or function within the church is very different to being judgemental and having a judgemental spirit.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 680


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2011, 05:26:28 PM »

A general question for this thread: does something have to be literally true for it to have didactic value? 

Oddly enough I have heard people argue for the idea that every story in the Bible has to be literally/historically true. So, for example, they will say that parables of Jesus had to really happen, because Christ would be lying and using deception if he was making them up.

Thankfully my personal Christian background never included this; Jesus was telling what people knew to be illustrative stories, whether they really happened or not
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
FantaLimon
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 46


Inquirer


« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2011, 06:27:55 PM »

Let's say the woman danced because she liked to turn men on.

Show of hands who thinks they are better than her?


Raise your hand if you think you are better than those who think they are better than a woman who dances to turn men on.



Selam
Gebre I don't mean to tempt you when I say your piety is an inspiration.  Thank you for responding.

(I am an inquirer,) I read in John's gospel that God does not thinking me worthy to weigh sins.  I could not damn an adulteress much less a temptress.  I believe a stripper's soul and that of her children are in danger but if she feeds her children I cannot say all is lost.  Hopefully there would be change for the better.  If she was taken immediately I cannot honestly say for certain God will damn her.

I don't know the full meaning of the passage but I think it's fair to remind each other of this if I am correct, that we should recognize the sin but not forget these women.  To think of sinners in a hierarchy is missing the mark as well, that there are "better sinners" (the OP's point, I believe, though I don't think God would truly say she is "better" for his argument to remain intact).  You are right I could be too strident given the spiritual stage I'm at right now.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 06:35:01 PM by FantaLimon » Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2011, 06:47:18 PM »

Since when did this become about whether it's right to do this job and if that person should be judged?

The implication was that God would condone it -- if it was to feed children or because someone was desperate.

I don't have a problem with people doing a job like this or people taking whatever job they can get to make ends meet. I'd be your friend, i don't really care what you do or why, it's none of my business. Your life is your life, i answer for mine only. What i do have a problem with is suggesting that God would somehow turn a blind eye it if it means they are just trying to feed their kids. In other words, their motive was okay so, that evens everything out.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
FantaLimon
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 46


Inquirer


« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2011, 06:56:46 PM »

I don't think the OP's point was that stripping was condoned by God as long as the stripper feeds her children.  Really, the fact that she feeds her children with it was a throwaway phrase and not relevant to the point that one should not try to "rate" oneself as a sinner.

At least that is the only way that story would make sense to me.

Like I said in the previous post, the fact that God in this story does identify her as "better" is inconsistent with the point and at best poorly worded (which would not be surprising since the OP's posts seem like broken English).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 07:00:04 PM by FantaLimon » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,821


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2011, 07:26:19 PM »

Since when did this become about whether it's right to do this job and if that person should be judged?

The implication was that God would condone it -- if it was to feed children or because someone was desperate.
I'm not sure the implication was that God would condone such an occupation as exotic dancing. ISTM that the point of the OP was a man comparing himself to others and being told that an exotic dancer was more righteous than he. It's a comparison of two persons relative to each other. (We even see such language of comparison in the Gospel, where Jesus says that the harlots and tax collectors would enter the Kingdom of God ahead of the Pharisees who trusted in their own righteousness.  ~ Matthew 21:31-32)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 07:37:57 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2011, 09:51:13 PM »

Let's say the woman danced because she liked to turn men on.

Show of hands who thinks they are better than her?


Raise your hand if you think you are better than those who think they are better than a woman who dances to turn men on.



Selam
Gebre I don't mean to tempt you when I say your piety is an inspiration.  Thank you for responding.

(I am an inquirer,) I read in John's gospel that God does not thinking me worthy to weigh sins.  I could not damn an adulteress much less a temptress.  I believe a stripper's soul and that of her children are in danger but if she feeds her children I cannot say all is lost.  Hopefully there would be change for the better.  If she was taken immediately I cannot honestly say for certain God will damn her.

I don't know the full meaning of the passage but I think it's fair to remind each other of this if I am correct, that we should recognize the sin but not forget these women.  To think of sinners in a hierarchy is missing the mark as well, that there are "better sinners" (the OP's point, I believe, though I don't think God would truly say she is "better" for his argument to remain intact).  You are right I could be too strident given the spiritual stage I'm at right now.


Nothing I said indicates that I am promoting a heirarchy of sins. My concern with the OP is that it seems to suggest that the means of sin is justifiable according to the ends that it may accomplish. I understand that the main point of the OP is about not passing judgment on another, but I just think the example used is a poor one and could unintentionally lead some people to think that immoral acts may be overlooked by God if they are committed with an ostensible greater good such as feeding one's children. While it is noble to sacrifice oneself in order to feed one's children, it is not noble to cause offense to others in the process. Women who strip in order to provide for their own children are causing great harm to other people's children by undermining families and marriages. In using examples and analogies to promote a spiritual principle, we must not violate other spiritual principles that are just as important. The Christian message of "thou shalt not judge thy brother" must not be elevated above the Christian message of "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and He will provide for your needs."

I hope that makes sense. Please know that I am not pious, only a sinner.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2011, 12:54:48 AM »

How about Our Father? Is this a repetitive prayer? Who taught us Our Father?
I would take the moral of the story that between two sins, choose the smallest one. At that time the women did not strip I believe in dancing. She was just dancing maybe in the equivalent of a bar.


"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."  Matthew 6:7


« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 01:01:59 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,821


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #61 on: October 10, 2011, 01:45:59 AM »

How about Our Father? Is this a repetitive prayer? Who taught us Our Father?
I would take the moral of the story that between two sins, choose the smallest one.
Better yet: Don't sin at all, and don't judge.

At that time the women did not strip I believe in dancing. She was just dancing maybe in the equivalent of a bar.
Clothes on, clothes off... What's the difference when it comes to "dancing for men"?
Logged
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,033


« Reply #62 on: October 10, 2011, 02:04:11 AM »

I would imagine the pay scale, but yeah, point taken...
Logged

FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2011, 03:29:13 AM »

Let's say the woman danced because she liked to turn men on.

Show of hands who thinks they are better than her?


Raise your hand if you think you are better than those who think they are better than a woman who dances to turn men on.



Selam
Gebre I don't mean to tempt you when I say your piety is an inspiration.  Thank you for responding.

(I am an inquirer,) I read in John's gospel that God does not thinking me worthy to weigh sins.  I could not damn an adulteress much less a temptress.  I believe a stripper's soul and that of her children are in danger but if she feeds her children I cannot say all is lost.  Hopefully there would be change for the better.  If she was taken immediately I cannot honestly say for certain God will damn her.

I don't know the full meaning of the passage but I think it's fair to remind each other of this if I am correct, that we should recognize the sin but not forget these women.  To think of sinners in a hierarchy is missing the mark as well, that there are "better sinners" (the OP's point, I believe, though I don't think God would truly say she is "better" for his argument to remain intact).  You are right I could be too strident given the spiritual stage I'm at right now.


Nothing I said indicates that I am promoting a heirarchy of sins. My concern with the OP is that it seems to suggest that the means of sin is justifiable according to the ends that it may accomplish. I understand that the main point of the OP is about not passing judgment on another, but I just think the example used is a poor one and could unintentionally lead some people to think that immoral acts may be overlooked by God if they are committed with an ostensible greater good such as feeding one's children. While it is noble to sacrifice oneself in order to feed one's children, it is not noble to cause offense to others in the process. Women who strip in order to provide for their own children are causing great harm to other people's children by undermining families and marriages. In using examples and analogies to promote a spiritual principle, we must not violate other spiritual principles that are just as important. The Christian message of "thou shalt not judge thy brother" must not be elevated above the Christian message of "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and He will provide for your needs."

I hope that makes sense. Please know that I am not pious, only a sinner.


Selam


Like Gebre, i understood the point of the OP Peter and Limon, and like Gebre, i was picking up on the means of sin being justifiable.

I agree with everything Gebre has said except that it's the men who are married who cause themselves and their families harm by being at a strip club. No one compelled their feet to walk in and it's the men who are in covenant to their wives, not the dancer. #wink
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2011, 05:51:20 AM »

How about Our Father? Is this a repetitive prayer? Who taught us Our Father?

If you are using any set of words as some sort of talisman to be meaninglessly repeated x number of times so that you receive y then yes, even the Lord's Prayer could be a vain repetition. 
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2011, 06:33:35 AM »

Anyhow, if you have such a situation, ask a priest what to do.
Logged
Mivac
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 247


« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2011, 07:42:14 AM »

Let's give Pasadi a break: the man asking God could indeed be a worse sinner than the dancer--he could be her pimp for example. Then the Lord's answer would be true and remind the man that he is a very bad person.

Pasadi--Why did you think that this was "interesting" and why did you expect from us in the way of replies?

I always thought we were to see ourselves as the worse sinner and everyone else better than ourselves. 
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,436



« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2011, 05:48:51 PM »

Anyhow, if you have such a situation, ask a priest what to do.

You my friend have learned the get-out-of-jail-no-matter-what-your-polemic-OC.net-caveat.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2011, 06:20:12 PM »


I agree with everything Gebre has said except that it's the men who are married who cause themselves and their families harm by being at a strip club. No one compelled their feet to walk in and it's the men who are in covenant to their wives, not the dancer. #wink


There is a complicity of evil that makes both parties morally culpable. Indeed, we are responsible for our own sinful choices, and the "entrapment" clause will not exculpate us on the day of Judgment. However, those who provide the opportunity for sin will also not be justified by the excuse, "I didn't make them do it."

"Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" [St. Matthew 18:7]


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Opus118
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,473



« Reply #69 on: October 11, 2011, 11:53:40 PM »

This particular thread is mystifying to me and it has been going on for about five days. I obviously need help in understanding the mindsets of the posters with some exceptions poster-wise,

The original post was:

Interesting:
A old man was praying to God to show him people better than him and God showed him a woman dancing for men to fed her children since other job was not available.

I am sure at least some of you noted that this was an appropriate extension of an observation of Abba Pambo, the gist of which is that upon seeing an actress (possibly a prostitute) during his trip to see Archbishop Athanasius, he started crying at the sight of an actress due to fact that the actress strove to please men who did not deserve it more than he did to please God who did deserve every sacrifice and effort.

But this is not the point. The point is  how and when did the dancer become a stripper in this thread (or pole dancer, lap dancer, choose your own hyperbole). To dance is an intrinsic part of humanity and more often than not geared to the opposite sex. It is an expressive art form and a language that allows us to relate who we are and what we are feeling. It is an expression of us and not the commercial advertisement for sex the former innuendo connotes.

In any case I just wanted to state that I found some of the posts in this thread sickening.

 
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2011, 09:08:29 AM »


I agree with everything Gebre has said except that it's the men who are married who cause themselves and their families harm by being at a strip club. No one compelled their feet to walk in and it's the men who are in covenant to their wives, not the dancer. #wink


There is a complicity of evil that makes both parties morally culpable. Indeed, we are responsible for our own sinful choices, and the "entrapment" clause will not exculpate us on the day of Judgment. However, those who provide the opportunity for sin will also not be justified by the excuse, "I didn't make them do it."

"Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" [St. Matthew 18:7]


Selam


#laughs, sure i have no problem with the woman being culpable in what she's chosing to do but you didn't mention both parties in your post as being culpable, only the woman. Since you mentioned the man's family, i just thought your post needed a bit of balance added to it, as it is his family not hers.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,821


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2011, 01:50:29 PM »


I agree with everything Gebre has said except that it's the men who are married who cause themselves and their families harm by being at a strip club. No one compelled their feet to walk in and it's the men who are in covenant to their wives, not the dancer. #wink


There is a complicity of evil that makes both parties morally culpable. Indeed, we are responsible for our own sinful choices, and the "entrapment" clause will not exculpate us on the day of Judgment. However, those who provide the opportunity for sin will also not be justified by the excuse, "I didn't make them do it."

"Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" [St. Matthew 18:7]


Selam

But what about the man who exalts his own righteousness by judging the dancer? You're focused on the sins of the publican, which the Gospel clearly teaches us to avoid, but at least he went away to his home justified. The real point of the story of the Publican and the Pharisee, and the real point of the OP, AISI, is that the dancer is more likely to find favor in the eyes of God than the man who exalts his own self-righteousness by judging her.
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2011, 03:47:47 PM »


I agree with everything Gebre has said except that it's the men who are married who cause themselves and their families harm by being at a strip club. No one compelled their feet to walk in and it's the men who are in covenant to their wives, not the dancer. #wink


There is a complicity of evil that makes both parties morally culpable. Indeed, we are responsible for our own sinful choices, and the "entrapment" clause will not exculpate us on the day of Judgment. However, those who provide the opportunity for sin will also not be justified by the excuse, "I didn't make them do it."

"Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" [St. Matthew 18:7]


Selam

But what about the man who exalts his own righteousness by judging the dancer? You're focused on the sins of the publican, which the Gospel clearly teaches us to avoid, but at least he went away to his home justified. The real point of the story of the Publican and the Pharisee, and the real point of the OP, AISI, is that the dancer is more likely to find favor in the eyes of God than the man who exalts his own self-righteousness by judging her.


I am not focused on one sin to the exclusion of the other. In fact it seems that you are focused on the sins of those who judge the dancer without realizing that you are equally guilty because you are judging them for their judgment.

BTW, there is a big difference between calling sin "sin" and self-righteous condemnation of sinners.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,436



« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2011, 04:10:59 PM »

BTW, there is a big difference between calling sin "sin" and self-righteous condemnation of sinners.


Selam


If you weren't able to maintain this precarious tightrope act, your identity would fall apart.

Actually, you have a pretty big safety net, since you rarely do maintain the act very well.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,436



« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2011, 04:13:40 PM »

The point is  how and when did the dancer become a stripper in this thread (or pole dancer, lap dancer, choose your own hyperbole). To dance is an intrinsic part of humanity and more often than not geared to the opposite sex. It is an expressive art form and a language that allows us to relate who we are and what we are feeling. It is an expression of us and not the commercial advertisement for sex the former innuendo connotes.

In any case I just wanted to state that I found some of the posts in this thread sickening.

 

Agreed on all points. How did St.Mary Magdalene get confused so easily by so many?

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,821


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2011, 04:25:44 PM »


I agree with everything Gebre has said except that it's the men who are married who cause themselves and their families harm by being at a strip club. No one compelled their feet to walk in and it's the men who are in covenant to their wives, not the dancer. #wink


There is a complicity of evil that makes both parties morally culpable. Indeed, we are responsible for our own sinful choices, and the "entrapment" clause will not exculpate us on the day of Judgment. However, those who provide the opportunity for sin will also not be justified by the excuse, "I didn't make them do it."

"Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" [St. Matthew 18:7]


Selam

But what about the man who exalts his own righteousness by judging the dancer? You're focused on the sins of the publican, which the Gospel clearly teaches us to avoid, but at least he went away to his home justified. The real point of the story of the Publican and the Pharisee, and the real point of the OP, AISI, is that the dancer is more likely to find favor in the eyes of God than the man who exalts his own self-righteousness by judging her.


I am not focused on one sin to the exclusion of the other. In fact it seems that you are focused on the sins of those who judge the dancer without realizing that you are equally guilty because you are judging them for their judgment.
And you're judging me for my judgment of their judgment. See how far we can take this?

BTW, there is a big difference between calling sin "sin" and self-righteous condemnation of sinners.
I'm just hoping you'll eventually address the point of the OP, which I think you're still missing. (Am I guilty of judging you simply because I think you're missing the point?)
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2011, 04:37:10 PM »

I'm just hoping you'll eventually address the point of the OP, which I think you're still missing. (Am I guilty of judging you simply because I think you're missing the point?)

I've addressed the point of the OP numerous times. But I will indulge you once again. The problem I have with the OP is that in the attempt to highlight one Christian principle it seems to condone the violation of another Christian principle. I think there are much better analogies to demonstrate the principle of "thou shalt not judge" than the one used in the OP.

Let me also add that this whole idea about judgment can easily be perverted. Everybody starts running around condemning each other for being judgmental. It seems that Orthodox Christians should all be able to agree that it is a sin to lust, that it is a sin to cause others to lust, and that it is a sin to self-righteously condemn others who sin. If we can all agree on these things, then what more needs to be debated?



Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,821


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2011, 06:09:32 PM »

I'm just hoping you'll eventually address the point of the OP, which I think you're still missing. (Am I guilty of judging you simply because I think you're missing the point?)

I've addressed the point of the OP numerous times. But I will indulge you once again. The problem I have with the OP is that in the attempt to highlight one Christian principle it seems to condone the violation of another Christian principle. I think there are much better analogies to demonstrate the principle of "thou shalt not judge" than the one used in the OP.
Well, what about these analogies:

"The tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you."  ~ Matthew 21:31

The parable of the Publican and the Pharisee  ~ Luke 18:10-14

Can these passages be read as condoning the sins of the tax collectors, harlots, and the publican, the way you read the OP as condoning the sins of the dancer? I suppose they can.

Did Jesus condone their sins? No, He did not.

Could Jesus have used better analogies to demonstrate the principle of "thou shalt not judge" than the ones He used? I'm not going to argue with His choice of analogies, since His wisdom is infinite and mine is not.

Seeing the OP as following the pattern set by the aforementioned passages from the Gospel, I still think you're missing the point through your insistent focus on how you think the OP condones the sins of the dancer.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 06:10:54 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,436



« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2011, 07:36:02 PM »

I still can't believe people are questioning pasadi.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,460



« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2011, 07:49:23 PM »

I still can't believe people are questioning pasadi.

"And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country." - Lk. 4:24
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #80 on: October 12, 2011, 08:35:00 PM »

I still can't believe people are questioning pasadi.
Y'know, not all of us are Sola Pasadists.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,460



« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2011, 08:48:18 PM »

I still can't believe people are questioning pasadi.
Y'know, not all of us are Sola Pasadists.

 Undecided  Hmm, no sola pasadi? That's unfortunate. You would at least affirm, I hope, prima pasadi? 
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #82 on: October 12, 2011, 08:50:34 PM »

Let me light some incense and get back to you.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,460



« Reply #83 on: October 12, 2011, 09:08:06 PM »

Let me light some incense and get back to you.

While you are thoughtfully and prayerfully meditating on this, I have a question. Your avatar... is that a picture of Veruca Salt, or perhaps her sister?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 09:08:15 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #84 on: October 12, 2011, 10:03:24 PM »

I'm just hoping you'll eventually address the point of the OP, which I think you're still missing. (Am I guilty of judging you simply because I think you're missing the point?)

I've addressed the point of the OP numerous times. But I will indulge you once again. The problem I have with the OP is that in the attempt to highlight one Christian principle it seems to condone the violation of another Christian principle. I think there are much better analogies to demonstrate the principle of "thou shalt not judge" than the one used in the OP.
Well, what about these analogies:

"The tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you."  ~ Matthew 21:31

The parable of the Publican and the Pharisee  ~ Luke 18:10-14

Can these passages be read as condoning the sins of the tax collectors, harlots, and the publican, the way you read the OP as condoning the sins of the dancer? I suppose they can.

Did Jesus condone their sins? No, He did not.

Could Jesus have used better analogies to demonstrate the principle of "thou shalt not judge" than the ones He used? I'm not going to argue with His choice of analogies, since His wisdom is infinite and mine is not.

Seeing the OP as following the pattern set by the aforementioned passages from the Gospel, I still think you're missing the point through your insistent focus on how you think the OP condones the sins of the dancer.



Why not just quote Jesus and Scripture instead of presenting an analogy that runs the risk of indicating that the means of sin justifies the ends it accomplishes? The analogies Christ used never indicated that sin was justifiable because of a particular ends that it might serve.

BTW, do you agree with the part of my statement that you left out here? Let me state it again: "It seems that Orthodox Christians should all be able to agree that it is a sin to lust, that it is a sin to cause others to lust, and that it is a sin to self-righteously condemn others who sin. If we can all agree on these things, then what more needs to be debated?"


Selam


« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 10:03:59 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,460



« Reply #85 on: October 12, 2011, 10:09:21 PM »

The analogies Christ used never indicated that sin was justifiable because of a particular ends that it might serve.

No, but other Biblical writers, and Church Fathers, argued as much. Not that they would have put it quite like that... but choosing "lesser evils" (ie. sins) was deemed an acceptable--even necessary--path in some cases.
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,821


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #86 on: October 12, 2011, 10:24:44 PM »

I'm just hoping you'll eventually address the point of the OP, which I think you're still missing. (Am I guilty of judging you simply because I think you're missing the point?)

I've addressed the point of the OP numerous times. But I will indulge you once again. The problem I have with the OP is that in the attempt to highlight one Christian principle it seems to condone the violation of another Christian principle. I think there are much better analogies to demonstrate the principle of "thou shalt not judge" than the one used in the OP.
Well, what about these analogies:

"The tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you."  ~ Matthew 21:31

The parable of the Publican and the Pharisee  ~ Luke 18:10-14

Can these passages be read as condoning the sins of the tax collectors, harlots, and the publican, the way you read the OP as condoning the sins of the dancer? I suppose they can.

Did Jesus condone their sins? No, He did not.

Could Jesus have used better analogies to demonstrate the principle of "thou shalt not judge" than the ones He used? I'm not going to argue with His choice of analogies, since His wisdom is infinite and mine is not.

Seeing the OP as following the pattern set by the aforementioned passages from the Gospel, I still think you're missing the point through your insistent focus on how you think the OP condones the sins of the dancer.



Why not just quote Jesus and Scripture instead of presenting an analogy that runs the risk of indicating that the means of sin justifies the ends it accomplishes? The analogies Christ used never indicated that sin was justifiable because of a particular ends that it might serve.
And neither did the OP.

BTW, do you agree with the part of my statement that you left out here? Let me state it again: "It seems that Orthodox Christians should all be able to agree that it is a sin to lust, that it is a sin to cause others to lust, and that it is a sin to self-righteously condemn others who sin. If we can all agree on these things, then what more needs to be debated?"
Why must I address everything in your post if I'm going to address part of it? Can I not just address that part which serves what I want to say?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 10:26:48 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #87 on: October 12, 2011, 10:34:36 PM »

The analogies Christ used never indicated that sin was justifiable because of a particular ends that it might serve.

No, but other Biblical writers, and Church Fathers, argued as much. Not that they would have put it quite like that... but choosing "lesser evils" (ie. sins) was deemed an acceptable--even necessary--path in some cases.


Well, then let's quote the Fathers too. Like I said, I think the example of the OP is flawed for the reasons I mentioned. We don't want to communicate one Christian principle by condoning the violation of another Christian principle. And despite the intent, the OP could lead some to believe that sin is justified by its accomplishments.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #88 on: October 12, 2011, 10:37:51 PM »

BTW, do you agree with the part of my statement that you left out here? Let me state it again: "It seems that Orthodox Christians should all be able to agree that it is a sin to lust, that it is a sin to cause others to lust, and that it is a sin to self-righteously condemn others who sin. If we can all agree on these things, then what more needs to be debated?"
Why must I address everything in your post if I'm going to address part of it? Can I not just address that part which serves what I want to say?


You can address whatever you want Peter. But I'm trying to find common Christian ground and focus on a way that we can all affirm the intent of the OP even while disagreeing about the effectiveness and legitimacy of the illustration. But maybe you just want to argue. I don't.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,821


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #89 on: October 12, 2011, 11:18:42 PM »

Why not just quote Jesus and Scripture instead of presenting an analogy that runs the risk of indicating that the means of sin justifies the ends it accomplishes? The analogies Christ used never indicated that sin was justifiable because of a particular ends that it might serve.
Do you say that because it's true, or do you say that because you can't stomach the idea of possibly attributing to Christ the logical conclusions you attribute to others?

You read the OP as using an analogy that runs the risk of indicating that the noble end of feeding one's child justifies the sinful means of accomplishing that end. Yet I don't see how the OP's analogy is any different from some of the analogies Jesus used to teach that we should be careful how we judge people. According to your reasoning, you would have to conclude that Christ used what you would call risky analogies, yet you can't bring yourself to make that conclusion because it would attribute less than perfect wisdom to Christ.

Working the other direction, if you recognize that Jesus used only perfect analogies, and if the OP uses an analogy that follows the same pattern Jesus set, how can you not extend to the OP the benefit of the doubt and recognize that he only wants to communicate the same message? Why do you feel comfortable reading into the OP a conclusion that you won't read into Christ's words, even though their basic logical method does not differ?

That's why I think you're missing the point of the OP.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.152 seconds with 72 queries.