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Author Topic: Merged discussion of all things Milan Synod  (Read 27153 times) Average Rating: 0
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Suaiden
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« Reply #90 on: April 04, 2011, 10:53:21 PM »

How about the Latin American Archdiocese under Met. Chrysostom (Celi-Almeida) which recently established communion with the Synod of Milan? With whom are they going?

They are not going anywhere-- they are part of the TOC-PC of Metropolitan Anghelos, whose communion Metropolitan John reaffirmed, as well as the sister Churches in Bulgaria and Russia. The only people who are leaving for the MP are the three Bishops in Italy, who in fact broke communion with everyone else this morning. Everything else will stay the same I think.

This is sad, but not devastating to our Synods.
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« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2011, 10:19:07 AM »

If by "his blog" you mean this, http://news-nftu.blogspot.com, yes, I'm afraid they do.  And, guess what....he got us discussing on this thread, now, too!  Mission accomplished? 

Btw, I appreciated your use of the adjective "shameless"  Grin.

Why do you seem content with one thread when they are dealing with three different things? These things are happening as we speak. I assume that the "removal of sites" thread will drop, as there's little left to discuss, but this matters not simply for us, but:

1) for Orthodox traditionalists interested in their Western heritage
2) Western-rite people in canonically problematic situations who want a home in the True Church
3) Traditional Orthodox Synods who have been historically disappointed in the behavior of people in our Synod who know that many of us, including our Metropolia, have been trying to clean up the mess we've made in the past and perhaps open a door to better communication
4) Members of our Sister Churches
5) The Moscow Patriarchate, which should be put on notice that in this deal, all they're getting is Milan (maybe that's all they want? Control of the Lazaretto to have a base in Italy, such as the monstrosity the FSB is sponsoring in France?)

So to answer your previous question, which I assume motivates this response: it affects a lot of people.

I'd be interested in knowing, if the numbers are available, just how many people this does affect.  How many people belong to the Milan Synod in the U.S.?  How many in Europe?  How many in South America, etc., etc.? 

Then, just who are your "Sister Churches" and how many people do they account for?

What is your definition of the "True Church", as you put it?  And, approximately how many Western Rite people might there be in "canonically problematic situations" (which I assume, perhaps incorrectly, really means uncanonical)?

I realize any numbers you or anyone else might supply will have to be approximate, but it would be really interesting to know just how many, roughly, we're talking about out of the roughly, what? 300 million Orthodox Christians in the world.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "Orthodox traditionalists", and "Western heritage"?  I'm aware that both ROCOR and the Antiochians both have Western Rite liturgies and parishes.  How much more "traditional" does one need to be?

As for being "content with one thread....", I was actually quite content with *2*  Grin!  I'm sure you're quite aware that many things are frequently discussed within the context of even a single thread, so when 3 appear in rapid succession about roughly the same thing (or should I say, different aspects of the same general topic, i.e. the Milan Synod), it does make me wonder about what was referred to above as "self-promotion".
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« Reply #92 on: April 05, 2011, 12:50:46 PM »

Also, what exactly do you mean by "Orthodox traditionalists", and "Western heritage"?  I'm aware that both ROCOR and the Antiochians both have Western Rite liturgies and parishes.  How much more "traditional" does one need to be?
Perhaps I speak out of turn, but I believe Milan finds the WRO practiced by ROCOR and the Antiochians problematic because some of their liturgies are basically 'doxified rites produced by schismatic/heterodox communions. IIRC, the WRO practiced by Milan is a resurrected form of a western liturgy (Sarum? York? Gallican? A little help here?) that was extant pre-schism.
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« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2011, 01:49:13 PM »

Also, what exactly do you mean by "Orthodox traditionalists", and "Western heritage"?  I'm aware that both ROCOR and the Antiochians both have Western Rite liturgies and parishes.  How much more "traditional" does one need to be?
Perhaps I speak out of turn, but I believe Milan finds the WRO practiced by ROCOR and the Antiochians problematic because some of their liturgies are basically 'doxified rites produced by schismatic/heterodox communions. IIRC, the WRO practiced by Milan is a resurrected form of a western liturgy (Sarum? York? Gallican? A little help here?) that was extant pre-schism.

No, I don't think you speak out of turn at all.  Your answer goes a little way to clarifying where these folks are coming from.  Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it *seems* that just about the only "Orthodox"  the new American so-called "metropolia" of the M.S. finds "acceptable" is.....themselves.  If that is, indeed, the case, how very sad and lonely that must be to be so isolated and cut-off from the rest of Christianity!

I eagerly await a response from Suaiden to my questions above.  The answers should be edifying.
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« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2011, 03:17:49 PM »

Hello Michael and friends.

I'm Hierodeacon Augustine, and I'm a member of the Automous Orthodox Metropolia of Americas and British Isles (which is the American Archdiocese of the Milan Synod that was made independent before the Milan Synod broke communion with us and our Greek and Bulgarian sister synods). 

I'll let Fr. Joseph answer the ecclesial questions and I'll answer the liturgical questions (though these are all related).  Our diference with the Western rite as practiced in the Antiochian Church and in the churches under the Moscow Patriarchate (rocor,etc), stem from our belief that any Liturgy that is based upon heterodox principles from inception is completely unacceptable.  For example, the various versions of the PrayerBook liturgies (many are used i these aforemention churches).  The Tridentine recension of the Roman Rite is considered to be provisionally acceptable is changes are made (no filioque, no unleavened bread, add an epiklesis, etc), since the Tridentine rite represents a skeletal and reduced version of the older Western Orthodox liturgies.  Therefore, it could be provisionally used until such time as older texts could be translated and approved.  For Divine Office texts, we have published all 35 of our volumes here:
http://orthodoxengland.blogspot.com/
These are mostly texts for the Hours that have been worked on for 30 or so years; the proper parts or variable parts of the Mass liturgy have not been all scanned.
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« Reply #95 on: April 05, 2011, 03:56:35 PM »

I'd be interested in knowing, if the numbers are available, just how many people this does affect.  How many people belong to the Milan Synod in the U.S.?  How many in Europe?  How many in South America, etc., etc.? 


Me too! If you can't get accurate numbers from the official Churches (which are extremely difficult) then it's extremely difficult to ask them from us, since we've never counted. Remember that official Orthodox census recently taken which had to "throw in the HOCNA" and still came up with less than a million "official" Orthodox in North America? The official OCA site still takes liberties of rounding it off to a possible six million!

I would say in answer to your first two questions, it affects a few thousand in each (probably a little less then that in the US but a little more than that in Europe were I to just guess), though we have no accurate count. We have two parishes in Central America, but a sister Church in South America with a few thousand more faithful scattered in a number of parishes.

Quote
Then, just who are your "Sister Churches" and how many people do they account for?

We have three sister Churches, which in fact are very large, but do not comprise the largest True Orthodox jurisdictions in their native regions. That said, the percentage of True Orthodox is somewhat higher.

Quote
What is your definition of the "True Church", as you put it? 


The True Church is the One Jesus Christ founded for the salvation of our souls. Furthermore, the True Church is composed of the Right-Believing Bishops throughout the world, who have maintained fidelity to the faith "once delivered to the saints". They have maintained the Orthodox faith in the face of persecution and open apostasy.

Quote
And, approximately how many Western Rite people might there be in "canonically problematic situations" (which I assume, perhaps incorrectly, really means uncanonical)?

Well, I was thinking of Western Rite Antiochians who might have been received in by confession and think they are actually in a proper Western and Orthodox Church.

Quote
I realize any numbers you or anyone else might supply will have to be approximate, but it would be really interesting to know just how many, roughly, we're talking about out of the roughly, what? 300 million Orthodox Christians in the world.

I believe that number is inflated but that Traditional Orthodox make up 10%-20% of any official numbers, based on my experience.

Quote
Also, what exactly do you mean by "Orthodox traditionalists", and "Western heritage"?  I'm aware that both ROCOR and the Antiochians both have Western Rite liturgies and parishes.  How much more "traditional" does one need to be?

Considering the ROCOR-MP's (not the whole ROCOR) assigned Western Rite representative in America believes that the Orthodox West should eat meat on Sundays of Lent (that being the most recent and egregious example of a public statement that immediately comes to mind), and Antiochians basically have Roman Catholic and Anglican services under Metr Philip, we do not use the traditional Orthodox Western forms to condemn or confuse the misled, but give them the opportunity to experience the True and Saving Orthodox Faith the way their forefathers did many centuries ago and before the schism, praying the same way they did and staying in better and closer relations with the Holy Saints and Fathers of the West, subject to the canonical teaching of the Church.

I hope that answers your question of "how much more "traditional" does one need to be".

You then wrote:

Quote
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it *seems* that just about the only "Orthodox"  the new American so-called "metropolia" of the M.S. finds "acceptable" is.....themselves. If that is, indeed, the case, how very sad and lonely that must be to be so isolated and cut-off from the rest of Christianity!

Well, that's just silly. First off, we have sister churches, so that isn't true. As for other Traditional Orthodox jurisdictions, until a couple of instigators began a "paper war" against our people, we had started to reach out in friendship to a couple of different Traditional Orthodox jurisdictions. We still do, and most of us try to maintain good relations across the board with True Orthodox of all different jurisdictions. I wouldn't say we're 100% successful, but we do our best to stay friends.

If anything, the success of apostate World Orthodoxy has been to convince the confessors throughout the world that they were alone, to try to drive them to despair. Besides the fact that in Christ we are NEVER alone, but with those who confess the faith, we do our best to reach out to the isolated True Orthodox wherever we can and offer what comfort that we are able.

Second, I have been cut off from "the rest of Christianity" ever since I was baptized into THE CHURCH.
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« Reply #96 on: April 05, 2011, 04:14:28 PM »

The Tridentine recension of the Roman Rite is considered to be provisionally acceptable is changes are made (no filioque, no unleavened bread, add an epiklesis, etc), since the Tridentine rite represents a skeletal and reduced version of the older Western Orthodox liturgies.  Therefore, it could be provisionally used until such time as older texts could be translated and approved.

Welcome to the forum, father!

How your WR differs from Tridentine practices? Of course, it's pre-Schism but is it really that different?
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« Reply #97 on: April 05, 2011, 04:18:34 PM »

Hello Michael and friends.

I'm Hierodeacon Augustine, and I'm a member of the Automous Orthodox Metropolia of Americas and British Isles (which is the American Archdiocese of the Milan Synod that was made independent before the Milan Synod broke communion with us and our Greek and Bulgarian sister synods). 

I'll let Fr. Joseph answer the ecclesial questions and I'll answer the liturgical questions (though these are all related).  Our diference with the Western rite as practiced in the Antiochian Church and in the churches under the Moscow Patriarchate (rocor,etc), stem from our belief that any Liturgy that is based upon heterodox principles from inception is completely unacceptable.  For example, the various versions of the PrayerBook liturgies (many are used i these aforemention churches).  The Tridentine recension of the Roman Rite is considered to be provisionally acceptable is changes are made (no filioque, no unleavened bread, add an epiklesis, etc), since the Tridentine rite represents a skeletal and reduced version of the older Western Orthodox liturgies.  Therefore, it could be provisionally used until such time as older texts could be translated and approved.  For Divine Office texts, we have published all 35 of our volumes here:
http://orthodoxengland.blogspot.com/
These are mostly texts for the Hours that have been worked on for 30 or so years; the proper parts or variable parts of the Mass liturgy have not been all scanned.


Thanks for that.

What, exactly, are those "heterodox principles"?  It sounds kind of vague.  And how is the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or that of St. Basil unacceptable?
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« Reply #98 on: April 05, 2011, 04:44:32 PM »

  And how is the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or that of St. Basil unacceptable?

Forgive me, but I see no disparaging of these Eastern Liturgies in Fr Augustine's response. I have not reviewed our directory lately, which may need updating with new additions, but The Orthodox Metropolia of N & S America and the British Isles is bi-ritual Church with probably slightly more Eastern Rite than Western Rite observing parishes, missions and monastics.

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« Reply #99 on: April 05, 2011, 04:58:46 PM »

  And how is the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or that of St. Basil unacceptable?

Forgive me, but I see no disparaging of these Eastern Liturgies in Fr Augustine's response. I have not reviewed our directory lately, which may need updating with new additions, but The Orthodox Metropolia of N & S America and the British Isles is bi-ritual Church with probably slightly more Eastern Rite than Western Rite observing parishes, missions and monastics.

In Christ,
Fr Symeon Salos

But neither did he say that they were acceptable.  Are they?  And perhaps you know what those "heterodox principles" are that he referred to.  If so, would you be able to explain what they are and why they're unacceptable?
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« Reply #100 on: April 05, 2011, 05:03:39 PM »

But neither did he say that they were acceptable.  Are they?  And perhaps you know what those "heterodox principles" are that he referred to.  If so, would you be able to explain what they are and why they're unacceptable?

Oh, this is ridiculous. At least to me it was obvious Fr Augustine was making a reference to your statement that "Also, what exactly do you mean by "Orthodox traditionalists", and "Western heritage"?  I'm aware that both ROCOR and the Antiochians both have Western Rite liturgies and parishes.  How much more "traditional" does one need to be?" and your reply to the statement by Agabus.

The Eastern Liturgies were always acceptable! It is the modern pastiche "Western rites" you said were good enough that we find largely unacceptable.
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« Reply #101 on: April 05, 2011, 05:18:24 PM »

This "bishop" Avondios is Romanian and he left the monastery back in Romania to live with his lover, IIRC. He used to be a frequent guest at various TV shows. After that he disappeared and then, lo and behold, he reappears as bishop Avondios. He wants to join the Russians probably because the Romanians know about him and he wouldn't stand a chance.
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« Reply #102 on: April 05, 2011, 05:21:13 PM »

I'd be interested in knowing, if the numbers are available, just how many people this does affect.  How many people belong to the Milan Synod in the U.S.?  How many in Europe?  How many in South America, etc., etc.? 


Me too! If you can't get accurate numbers from the official Churches (which are extremely difficult) then it's extremely difficult to ask them from us, since we've never counted. Remember that official Orthodox census recently taken which had to "throw in the HOCNA" and still came up with less than a million "official" Orthodox in North America? The official OCA site still takes liberties of rounding it off to a possible six million!

I would say in answer to your first two questions, it affects a few thousand in each (probably a little less then that in the US but a little more than that in Europe were I to just guess), though we have no accurate count. We have two parishes in Central America, but a sister Church in South America with a few thousand more faithful scattered in a number of parishes.

Quote
Then, just who are your "Sister Churches" and how many people do they account for?

We have three sister Churches, which in fact are very large, but do not comprise the largest True Orthodox jurisdictions in their native regions. That said, the percentage of True Orthodox is somewhat higher.

Quote
What is your definition of the "True Church", as you put it? 


The True Church is the One Jesus Christ founded for the salvation of our souls. Furthermore, the True Church is composed of the Right-Believing Bishops throughout the world, who have maintained fidelity to the faith "once delivered to the saints". They have maintained the Orthodox faith in the face of persecution and open apostasy.

Quote
And, approximately how many Western Rite people might there be in "canonically problematic situations" (which I assume, perhaps incorrectly, really means uncanonical)?

Well, I was thinking of Western Rite Antiochians who might have been received in by confession and think they are actually in a proper Western and Orthodox Church.

Quote
I realize any numbers you or anyone else might supply will have to be approximate, but it would be really interesting to know just how many, roughly, we're talking about out of the roughly, what? 300 million Orthodox Christians in the world.

I believe that number is inflated but that Traditional Orthodox make up 10%-20% of any official numbers, based on my experience.

Quote
Also, what exactly do you mean by "Orthodox traditionalists", and "Western heritage"?  I'm aware that both ROCOR and the Antiochians both have Western Rite liturgies and parishes.  How much more "traditional" does one need to be?

Considering the ROCOR-MP's (not the whole ROCOR) assigned Western Rite representative in America believes that the Orthodox West should eat meat on Sundays of Lent (that being the most recent and egregious example of a public statement that immediately comes to mind), and Antiochians basically have Roman Catholic and Anglican services under Metr Philip, we do not use the traditional Orthodox Western forms to condemn or confuse the misled, but give them the opportunity to experience the True and Saving Orthodox Faith the way their forefathers did many centuries ago and before the schism, praying the same way they did and staying in better and closer relations with the Holy Saints and Fathers of the West, subject to the canonical teaching of the Church.

I hope that answers your question of "how much more "traditional" does one need to be".

You then wrote:

Quote
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it *seems* that just about the only "Orthodox"  the new American so-called "metropolia" of the M.S. finds "acceptable" is.....themselves. If that is, indeed, the case, how very sad and lonely that must be to be so isolated and cut-off from the rest of Christianity!

Well, that's just silly. First off, we have sister churches, so that isn't true. As for other Traditional Orthodox jurisdictions, until a couple of instigators began a "paper war" against our people, we had started to reach out in friendship to a couple of different Traditional Orthodox jurisdictions. We still do, and most of us try to maintain good relations across the board with True Orthodox of all different jurisdictions. I wouldn't say we're 100% successful, but we do our best to stay friends.

If anything, the success of apostate World Orthodoxy has been to convince the confessors throughout the world that they were alone, to try to drive them to despair. Besides the fact that in Christ we are NEVER alone, but with those who confess the faith, we do our best to reach out to the isolated True Orthodox wherever we can and offer what comfort that we are able.

Second, I have been cut off from "the rest of Christianity" ever since I was baptized into THE CHURCH.

Thanks for your reply!  Some more questions, if you don't mind, in response to your reply.

1.  So, at a rough guess, maybe 10,000 people out of the 200-300 million considered "Orthodox"?

2. Who and where are these "Sister Churches"?  What makes them "sisters"?

3. Are you saying that the WR Antiochians are neither properly Western and/or Orthodox?

4. What does a "Right-Believing" bishop believe that makes him "right-believing" and others wrong-believing?  Are the only "right-believing" bishops those within what you refer to as True Orthodoxy?  Are ROCOR bishops right- or wrong-believing?  Are the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate right- or wrong-believing? 

5. What's the difference between Orthodox, True Orthodox, and Traditional Orthodox?

6. Are you saying or implying that out of say roughly 200-300 million "Orthodox" in the world, only a few thousand (10,000-20,000?) are *really* Orthodox and the rest of us are misled apostates?  Have you ever entertained the possibility that it just might be the other way 'round?

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« Reply #103 on: April 05, 2011, 05:23:38 PM »

But neither did he say that they were acceptable.  Are they?  And perhaps you know what those "heterodox principles" are that he referred to.  If so, would you be able to explain what they are and why they're unacceptable?

Oh, this is ridiculous. At least to me it was obvious Fr Augustine was making a reference to your statement that "Also, what exactly do you mean by "Orthodox traditionalists", and "Western heritage"?  I'm aware that both ROCOR and the Antiochians both have Western Rite liturgies and parishes.  How much more "traditional" does one need to be?" and your reply to the statement by Agabus.

The Eastern Liturgies were always acceptable! It is the modern pastiche "Western rites" you said were good enough that we find largely unacceptable.

Oh.  No one ever said I was the brightest bulb in the room  Grin.

Ahh, so now, with your answer about the "Western rites", perhaps we're getting somewhere.  So, the Eastern rites are o.k.?
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« Reply #104 on: April 05, 2011, 05:30:04 PM »

Hello Friend,

I think you misunderstand my answer, at least in the context.  The Liturgies of Sts. John Chrysostom, Basil, Mark, James, (and Gregory of Nyssa if you count the sometimes used Cappadocan rites), of the Eastern rite are great, wonderful, more than acceptable!  But, so is the Liturgy of St. Gregory Dialogus in its difference usages (by that, I mean, the Mass,not the eastern presanctified), or the Liturgy of St. Isidore (commonly called hte Hispanic or 'Mozarabic' rite).  All the Liturgies of the Church are great!

What I was criticizing was that the Antiochian Archdiocese, and to some extent the rocor,  have accepted  a new Divine Liturgy based upon the old Anglican prayerbook, with Anglican Missal interpolations.  For example, the Eucharistic Prayer in the Anglican prayerbook, was written by a non-Orthodox Zwinglian Protestant Reformed Archbishop of Canterbury (with the help of Martin Bucer, and a few others), and that it is therefore not fit for proper Orthodox usage.  If one is going to use the Western ORthodox rite (and I think half of our people in America do, maybe actually 55%??, as opposed to the majority Eastern Orthodox use), then just use the old Western Orthodox Liturgy and rites, which have been all translated, and in frequent usage for near 20 years now.  I'm sorry if I caused any misunderstanding on your part, friend.Many of us were Eastern rite, and asked our bishops to used an old Orthodox Western rite.
So yes, the Eastern rites are OK!!! T
T
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« Reply #105 on: April 05, 2011, 05:34:58 PM »

This "bishop" Avondios is Romanian and he left the monastery back in Romania to live with his lover, IIRC. He used to be a frequent guest at various TV shows. After that he disappeared and then, lo and behold, he reappears as bishop Avondios. He wants to join the Russians probably because the Romanians know about him and he wouldn't stand a chance.

In the mysterious Way of our Lord the cutting of relations by the Milan Synod from their (now formerly) TOC Sister Churches is a blessing to us since he is not our concern.

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« Reply #106 on: April 05, 2011, 05:35:37 PM »

Hello Michael and friends.

I'm Hierodeacon Augustine, and I'm a member of the Automous Orthodox Metropolia of Americas and British Isles (which is the American Archdiocese of the Milan Synod that was made independent before the Milan Synod broke communion with us and our Greek and Bulgarian sister synods). 

I'll let Fr. Joseph answer the ecclesial questions...

You will understand if I refuse to address you as "Father"; you state in your Statement of Monday that my Patriarch is a representative of Satan and I am a priest of Satan

".. the American Sister Church published statements which condemned the Moscow Patriarchate as an abmoniation, and declared that the Patriarchs and the innovating clergy and laity are representatives of Satan..."

http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2011/04/american-and-european-metropolias-no.html

Can you reference the Statements from the Milan Synod condemning our Church as satanic?
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« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2011, 05:36:14 PM »

To my Finnish friend, Alpo,

I would say that on a regular Ferial Day which are only perhaps 20% of the days at most. (that is, a Mass celebrated on an ordinary day, with no Procession, Tropes, etc), the Tridentine rite Mass, would appear substantially similar in most respect.  The only differences would be that the Tridentine rite incorporated additional Gallican offertory prayers, and had a separated offering of bread and wine (which are acceptable variations), and the other difference would be, that we use the Offertory Verses, which are dropped by the Tridentine rite, as well as the full Communion verses and psalms, which were also dropped, as well as differences when the Priest is praying the Canon of the Mass (such as extending his arms at the Undes et memores), as well as a few differences in the communion prayers of the priest (which are not heard by the people).  The other difference, is that the pre-Tridentine rites had proper prefaces for almost every single day in the year (the Preface being the changeable prayer prior to the Sanctus), so, we have probably 200, as opposed to the 15 in the Tridentine rite; we also kept all the Prayers of Bowed Heads which are sung after the Post-Communion, but, which were retained in the Tridentine rite only during days in Lent.  
This is just an example of the difference on the least differential days betwen the older usages, and the reformed Missal of Pius the V.
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« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2011, 05:54:17 PM »

His sins notwithstanding, it is  good that Avondios, due to  his origins, I guess, still has some ecclesiastical commonsense left, that moves him towards the right direction, out of the murky waters of "true, genuine, patristic, old calendar etc" vagantes.
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« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2011, 06:04:10 PM »

Thanks for your reply!  Some more questions, if you don't mind, in response to your reply.

1.  So, at a rough guess, maybe 10,000 people out of the 200-300 million considered "Orthodox"?

Well, no, not at all. This has a ripple effect. I would say it directly affects a few thousand people, and indirectly affects many more thousands. 200-300 million? Really? I assume you are including Russia's official numbers of 100-150 million, even though the truth is probably less than 20% of that, with only 1% of the population actually practicing? Not realizing that the government statistics inadvertently include True Orthodox in their interviews, who have hundreds of parishes throughout Russia?

Quote
2. Who and where are these "Sister Churches"?  What makes them "sisters"?

There are True Orthodox Synods with whom we are in communion in Greece, Bulgaria, Ukraine, and Russia. This is an increasingly common development after the the ROCOR-MP union period (2000-2007). As much of True Orthodoxy has been historically splintered, this is a natural development in light of increased communications, thanks to better and freer travel, the Internet, et cetera.

Quote
3. Are you saying that the WR Antiochians are neither properly Western and/or Orthodox?

I think their hearts are oftentimes in the in the right place. But they are still using a heterodox rite, usually have not been sufficiently catechized into Orthodoxy and they often have mass receptions. But to the literal answer to the question, I'd say "yes", they are often using incorrect forms foregin to Orthodoxy and their confession of faith has too many holdovers from their previous confession.

Quote
4. What does a "Right-Believing" bishop believe that makes him "right-believing" and others wrong-believing?

They adhere obediently to the principles of the Faith once delivered to the Saints and do not use their power to excuse themselves from doing so.

Quote
  Are the only "right-believing" bishops those within what you refer to as True Orthodoxy?


Yes, but I do not limit True Orthodoxy to our four sister-jurisdictions. I believe all jurisdictions who have preserved the faith, which have broken communion with the world-Orthodox historically in the 20th century and refuse to commune with them until they repent of their heresies, are Orthodox. This numbers in the millions of people, literally thousands of parishes, and numbers about 125-150 Bishops.

So much for a tiny fragment.

Quote
Are ROCOR bishops right- or wrong-believing?

Those Bishops of the ROCOR who refused to go with the union and maintained a proper confession of faith are right-believing. Those who have joined with the MP, their actions speak for themselves, but I believe there are only six or so Bishops left who actually *united* with Moscow, the rest having been made after the union, thus being MP bishops.

Quote
Are the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate right- or wrong-believing? 

I believe the vast majority of the Moscow Patriarchate bishops are nothing more than well-paid civil servants, who are employees of the atheist state. At times committed atheists were "made" Bishops in the MP. There is no apostolic succession there, and any that one had before they joined them is forfeited.

Quote
5. What's the difference between Orthodox, True Orthodox, and Traditional Orthodox?

Well, if you ask me, there isn't any: they are all the same. But for the sake of clarification, I use the terminology as follows I consider True Orthodox to be part of the wider subset of Traditional Orthodox (which includes people who accept and reject the title "True Orthodox", such as folks in the Synod in Resistance) and Traditional Orthodox in the wider subset of "Orthodox" (which includes anyone who calls himself Orthodox, such as the Antiochians). As I personally see little real difference between people who adhere to traditional and true Orthodoxy, and I don't consider World Orthodox as fully Orthodox, I use all three terms interchangeably-- I make the distinction for the convenience of those outside True Orthodoxy, not those within.

Quote
6. Are you saying or implying that out of say roughly 200-300 million "Orthodox" in the world, only a few thousand (10,000-20,000?) are *really* Orthodox and the rest of us are misled apostates?  Have you ever entertained the possibility that it just might be the other way 'round?

Having lived in Russia, and been in a few jurisdictions, I'd say that out of perhaps 70-100 million "Orthodox" in the world, there are two million, maybe 3 million, True Orthodox in various jurisdictions. So the answer to your first question is "yes". Viritually anyone in the world looking for True Orthodoxy can find it. God will have mercy on the few others not so fortunate. As for World Orthodoxy, it is our task to bring you back to the fullness of the Orthodox faith, bring you back to sanity. What you choose to do with that knowledge, however, is up to you. My experience with World Orthodoxy showed me enough that there is something deeply deficient there, even in the most perfectly celebrated of liturgies; something gutted out of it.

But if you want to believe True Orthodoxy is a couple of thousand people in a cave, you are free to do that too. You'd be wrong, just as you are wrong about your other numbers.

The faith is not determined by numbers. "Groupthink" can never trump the eternal truth of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and His Holy Church, whose teaching has been the same "everywhere and at all times".
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« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2011, 06:06:09 PM »

Let me correct something to Alpo, I think plain ferial days are now only 15 percent, if that.  They used to be more common, but so many minor feast days (Feasts of 3 Lessons for Vigils) were added as time when on, and so many Octaves, that ferials became extremely infrequent, are became commemorated at Mass, Lauds, and Vespers.
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« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2011, 06:26:53 PM »

Are there Milan clergy in the newly formed Metropolia of America and Britain
who would prefer to remain under the jurisdiction of Metropolitan Evloghios
and make the transition into the Russian Orthodox Church when the union
shall take place in the future?  It makes a lot of sense.

If memory serves, about 6 Milan clergy, from American Milan, have moved
into the Russian Church Abroad in the last 18 months.  This present time of
uncertainty will be sure to bring some more.

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« Reply #112 on: April 05, 2011, 06:37:17 PM »

His sins notwithstanding, it is  good that Avondios, due to  his origins, I guess, still has some ecclesiastical commonsense left, that moves him towards the right direction, out of the murky waters of "true, genuine, patristic, old calendar etc" vagantes.

No offense, but you can have him. Smiley
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« Reply #113 on: April 05, 2011, 06:44:27 PM »

http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2011/04/american-and-european-metropolias-no.html

Matters devolved rather quickly, especially with the infamous Bishop Abundius in control effectively of the European Synod. Bishop Abundius made clear that he desired a union with the Patriarchates, and especially with the Moscow Patriarchate, and he would not tolerate statements that contradicted this, let alone that called into question the grace or salvific character of the Mysteries and ecclesial actions of the Moscow Patriarchate, or any other World Orthodox Patriarchate.

Is not Bp Avondios (Dimitrie Bica) taking the risk of bringing his church career to a crashing halt.    It is well known why he had to abandon his position as the Abbot of a Romanian monastery - a simple google.com search with his name will bring his recent past to light.    Surely it is highly unlikely that Moscow would accept, as a Bishop, a man who is so morally compromised?
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« Reply #114 on: April 05, 2011, 09:38:35 PM »

So we have presented here a brand new so-called "American Metropolia" who is not in communion with even ONE part of any Orthodox body in America?
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« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2011, 10:40:00 PM »

So we have presented here a brand new so-called "American Metropolia" who is not in communion with even ONE part of any Orthodox body in America?


When did overlapping jurisdictions become the canonical norm? Just asking!
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« Reply #116 on: April 05, 2011, 11:35:56 PM »

So we have presented here a brand new so-called "American Metropolia" who is not in communion with even ONE part of any Orthodox body in America?


When did overlapping jurisdictions become the canonical norm? Just asking!

MAB is able to avoid overlapping jurisdictions in the Americas and Britain by declaring itself the sole Orthodox Church in these areas and proclaiming that any others present there are without the grace of Baptism and the Priesthood.  So - no overlapping jurisdictions on territory claimed by MAB.
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« Reply #117 on: April 06, 2011, 12:06:59 AM »

So we have presented here a brand new so-called "American Metropolia" who is not in communion with even ONE part of any Orthodox body in America?

We believe as a Metropolia (especially under the circumstances) we will be able to work with other True Orthodox jurisdictions in the country. After all, the Metropolia was previously two Archdioceses who were not in communion with others; however, now I believe we will be able to take positive steps forward without any more confusion that seems to now be the norm in Milan. Of course, this does not mean we are signing a bunch of intercommunion statements (nor would any good, sane True Orthodox body expect us to) but we will at least be freer to work together to provide a positive light to Traditional Orthodox Witness which we think will help foster unity, and the eventual canonical order demanded by the canons.

Traditional Orthodox Christians have been through a lot, much at the hands of "official Orthodoxy", and official Orthodoxy hasn't even been able to determine the status of the OCA. Why look to our much smaller houses with an eye to condemnation?
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« Reply #118 on: April 06, 2011, 02:10:20 AM »

When Bishop Abbondius was in Romania was he removed as abbot because of actual misconduct or simply because he admitted he was gay? I went through several articles and none mentioned misconduct or allegations of misconduct...
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« Reply #119 on: April 06, 2011, 04:22:55 AM »

When Bishop Abbondius was in Romania was he removed as abbot because of actual misconduct or simply because he admitted he was gay? I went through several articles and none mentioned misconduct or allegations of misconduct...

Isn't this off topic in light of the topic title above?
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« Reply #120 on: April 06, 2011, 04:34:50 AM »

When Bishop Abbondius was in Romania was he removed as abbot because of actual misconduct or simply because he admitted he was gay? I went through several articles and none mentioned misconduct or allegations of misconduct...

Isn't this off topic in light of the topic title above?

I find myself that the person on Bishop Abbundio (Dimitrie Bica) is of significance in the focus of this thread because he is being put forward as the instigator the break in communion of Milan headquarters with the rest of the Milan world and its Sister Churches.     His sexual orientation and history (work in the gay TV industry in Italy, and remember the photo of him in clericals at a Gay Pride March in Rome waving a Romanian flag!) will impact on how Moscow responds to him personally if he desires to enter Moscow as a bishop.   Indeed if he is the chief interlocutor with Moscow ( and he would seem to be) the Milan cause may be doomed since Moscow shies away from these matters.
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« Reply #121 on: April 06, 2011, 04:44:15 AM »

On a blog maintained by Fr Simon-Salos a schemamonk of American Milan, the focus is on Bp Abundius as the man who has hijacked the Milan Synod.  His personal role in this event seems pivotal. 

"The Milan Synod has surrendered its traditionalist struggle to preserve Patristic Orthodox Christianity! The Orthodox Metropolia of Western Europe, once known as the Western European Eparchy of the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (under Abp Auxentios of blessed memory), has been hijacked by the Vicar of the Archdiocese of Milan, commonly called the 'Milan Synod'.  Bishop Abundius (pictured here) has taken the Italian contingent of the Milan Synod into official dialogue with the Moscow Patriarchate."

http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #122 on: April 06, 2011, 04:53:15 AM »

On a blog maintained by Fr Simon-Salos a schemamonk of American Milan, ...

Where do you get these attributions? senior monastic? schemamonk? Even the name of our Church is wrong.

bewildered,
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I still think you are off topic. Go push your agenda in its own thread! Abundios is your problem now, don't take up space here. What does the Moderator think?
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« Reply #123 on: April 06, 2011, 05:56:05 AM »

On a blog maintained by Fr Simon-Salos a schemamonk of American Milan, ...

Where do you get these attributions? senior monastic? schemamonk? Even the name of our Church is wrong.

bewildered,
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I still think you are off topic. Go push your agenda in its own thread! Abundios is your problem now, don't take up space here. What does the Moderator think?

Wrong name of your Church?  I am sorry if I have it wrong but the documents from Milan which gave America its autonomy are confusing and contain at least two differing names for the new American Church.    I understand how you could be offended by wrong names - the people from American Milan have always insisted on giving my Church a wrong name - ROCOR-MP.  I haved often asked for that to be corrected but it continues to be blazoned across all the American Milan sites.



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« Reply #124 on: April 06, 2011, 06:02:04 AM »

[I still think you are off topic. Go push your agenda in its own thread! Abundios is your problem now, don't take up space here. What does the Moderator think?

Dear PapaSymeon,

Bishop Abundius forms an integral part of the OP and is a legitimate part of this thread, imho.  It is being claimed that Bishop Abundius is the prime moving force in the break in communion of the Milan Synod and the American Metropolia - the topic of this thread.
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« Reply #125 on: April 06, 2011, 09:52:23 AM »

So we have presented here a brand new so-called "American Metropolia" who is not in communion with even ONE part of any Orthodox body in America?


When did overlapping jurisdictions become the canonical norm? Just asking!

You are trying to change the subject and avoid the truth.   The so-called "American Metropolia" is in communion with nobody in America, whereas the Orthodox
in this country are all in communion with each other and actually meet to discuss the issue of overlapping jurisdictions.   In other words, there is consent between
the different parts of the Church on this matter but not one of the so-called "True Orthodox" Churches in America will have communion with each other. 

From what I have read on this thread here, the so-called "American Metropolia" claims the Orthodox who sustain
communion with each other are "not True", whereas those who do not have communion with each other are the "True" Church.
This logic plainly uses the "invisible Church" branch theory and is exactly the same logic the protestants use to justify their existence.

This so-called so-called "American Metropolia" is just another protestant sect who basically uses the same arguments as the protestants
do to justify separation from the Church.  Now a group of them has joined OC.net together at almost the same time to come and engage in
"missionary activity" here.

Same old same old.
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« Reply #126 on: April 06, 2011, 09:56:58 AM »

So we have presented here a brand new so-called "American Metropolia" who is not in communion with even ONE part of any Orthodox body in America?


When did overlapping jurisdictions become the canonical norm? Just asking!

You are trying to change the subject and avoid the truth.   The so-called "American Metropolia" is in communion with nobody in America, whereas the Orthodox
in this country are all in communion with each other and actually meet to discuss the issue of overlapping jurisdictions.   In other words, there is consent between
the different parts of the Church on this matter but not one of the so-called "True Orthodox" Churches in America will have communion with each other. 

From what I have read on this thread here, the so-called "American Metropolia" claims the Orthodox who sustain
communion with each other are "not True", whereas those who do not have communion with each other are the "True" Church.
This logic plainly uses the "invisible Church" branch theory and is exactly the same logic the protestants use to justify their existence.

This so-called so-called "American Metropolia" is just another protestant sect who basically uses the same arguments as the protestants
do to justify separation from the Church.  Now a group of them has joined OC.net together at almost the same time to come and engage in
"missionary activity" here.

Same old same old.

Could we call their concept ol' fashioned Protestantism in a different wrapper? That's what it appears to me to be.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #127 on: April 06, 2011, 10:11:58 AM »

Could we call their concept ol' fashioned Protestantism in a different wrapper? That's what it appears to me to be.

Really? We don't teach Protestantism. We don't pray with Protestants. We don't bless Protestant liturgies to be used in the Church. We aren't involved in the WCC and NCC, councils of Protestant origin. We don't mass-receive Protestants because "a baptism in Jesus' name is good enough".

I could call your religion "ol'fashioned Protestantism" in a different wrapper, but I didn't go there. Extend the same courtesy, please.
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« Reply #128 on: April 06, 2011, 10:22:20 AM »

This so-called so-called "American Metropolia" is just another protestant sect who basically uses the same arguments as the protestants
do to justify separation from the Church.  Now a group of them has joined OC.net together at almost the same time to come and engage in
"missionary activity" here.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

At least four of the "protestant sects" to which you refer came from ROCOR, which I assume is where you come from based on your username. Each of those divisions formed because certain clergy and people were able to see past the dishonest gamemanship of the ROCOR-MP hierarchy. Each of those Churches are filled with people who will tell you stories about how "Archbishop this-and-that promised me personally he would never join the Moscow Patriarchate". Thousands of victims. Thousands of lies.

And now you claim that the Traditional Orthodox are the authors of the disunity. No, they believed, and trusted that the Orthodox faith would be preserved and protected. But the hierarchs of the ROCOR-MP traded it in for wordly recognition and filthy lucre, to join with those who bless the destruction of the faith for the sake of rapidly emptying buildings. And the cause of the major schism between the Greek Old Calendarists was the same: a lack of clarity concerning the state Church, which was handing out empty promises to return to tradition and continues to do so today.

DON'T BLAME US FOR THE DISUNITY that so often, your own hierarchs helped create and promote to offer their demented vision of "unity", giving the people a stone for bread, in place of UNITY WITH THE TRUTH. Generations will pass so long as God chooses them to so do, and I promise you, the True Orthodox are starting to work together, and we will solve our problems. We have seen separation and division before. We don't fear it, and we don't run from it, for we are faithful to the teaching of Christ which unites us. "Invisible Church", my foot! We are quite visible, though administratively divided.

Yet your leaders pray with heretics. Your leaders refuse to repent for the murders of Orthodox Christians, which you stupidly call "Protestants". I promise you, no True Orthodox wants such unity!
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« Reply #129 on: April 06, 2011, 10:22:37 AM »

When Bishop Abbondius was in Romania was he removed as abbot because of actual misconduct or simply because he admitted he was gay? I went through several articles and none mentioned misconduct or allegations of misconduct...
He left of his own will and he didn't give any reasons upon leaving, until well after that, on tv, on a live show. So, no, there were no allegations of misconduct, but leaving your monastery is pretty irregular, canonically.
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« Reply #130 on: April 06, 2011, 10:28:39 AM »

So we have presented here a brand new so-called "American Metropolia" who is not in communion with even ONE part of any Orthodox body in America?


When did overlapping jurisdictions become the canonical norm? Just asking!

You are trying to change the subject and avoid the truth.   The so-called "American Metropolia" is in communion with nobody in America, whereas the Orthodox
in this country are all in communion with each other and actually meet to discuss the issue of overlapping jurisdictions.   In other words, there is consent between
the different parts of the Church on this matter but not one of the so-called "True Orthodox" Churches in America will have communion with each other. 

From what I have read on this thread here, the so-called "American Metropolia" claims the Orthodox who sustain
communion with each other are "not True", whereas those who do not have communion with each other are the "True" Church.
This logic plainly uses the "invisible Church" branch theory and is exactly the same logic the protestants use to justify their existence.

This so-called so-called "American Metropolia" is just another protestant sect who basically uses the same arguments as the protestants
do to justify separation from the Church.  Now a group of them has joined OC.net together at almost the same time to come and engage in
"missionary activity" here.

Same old same old.

Could we call their concept ol' fashioned Protestantism in a different wrapper? That's what it appears to me to be.

In Christ,
Andrew

Exactly(!) because just like the protestants, this new group justifies their existence in opposition to the Church by claiming the Church is in error.   This is the essence of protestantism, including their employment of the "branch theory" which claims the Church consists of individual parts who do not recognize each other in communion.   At the same time they claim the Orthodox who have maintained their ancient communion with each other are NOT the "True Church".  

In this they ARE protestants to the core.
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« Reply #131 on: April 06, 2011, 10:33:52 AM »

Exactly(!) because just like the protestants, this new group justifies their existence in opposition to the Church by claiming the Church is in error.   This is the essence of protestantism, including their employment of the "branch theory" which claims the Church consists of individual parts who do not recognize each other in communion.   At the same time they claim the Orthodox who have maintained their ancient communion with each other are NOT the "True Church".  

In this they ARE protestants to the core.

Doesn't the leader of your communion call Rome a "sister Church"?

Doesn't the leader of the Romanians in your communion recognize the apostolicity of the Anglicans?

THAT is the branch theory. Look it up before you say something so ridiculous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_theory

So don't be silly. I recognize as Orthodox those who believe and adhere to the Orthodox faith. I accept that Bishops (being Bishops) will argue and sometimes break communion with each other. But I believe their faith is the same.
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Still a Deacon of the Autonomous Metropolia, Nope, Still Don't Like Ecumenism, Yep, Still Western "Rite"
augustin717
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« Reply #132 on: April 06, 2011, 10:37:40 AM »

Romanians do not recognize any "apostolicity" of the Anglicans. When did they ever receive one by vesting?
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ROCORthodox
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« Reply #133 on: April 06, 2011, 10:48:01 AM »

Romanians do not recognize any "apostolicity" of the Anglicans. When did they ever receive one by vesting?

This is exactly what the protestants do.  They twist information around to make the justification for their being separate from the Church.  You will see all sorts of long winded arguments laid out, but the fact remains they do NOT have communion with each other and they claim the ancient communion of Orthodox Churches is OUTSIDE the Church. 


We shall see from them all sorts of smoke and mirrors to justify their protestantism.
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Suaiden
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« Reply #134 on: April 06, 2011, 10:54:20 AM »

Romanians do not recognize any "apostolicity" of the Anglicans. When did they ever receive one by vesting?

Sorry, I was thinking of Cyprus (more below). However, while I realized I may have confused the statements of Romania and Cyprus, the official statement of their joint commission in 1936 was the following on the matter:
"The Rumanian Commission made the following Declaration.
    "Having considered the conclusions of the papers on the Apostolic Succession, Holy Orders, Holy Eucharist, Holy Mysteries in general, and Tradition and Justification,
    "And having considered the declarations of the Anglican Delegation on these questions, which declarations are in accordance with the Doctrine of the Orthodox Church,
    "The Rumanian Orthodox Commission unanimously recommends the Holy Synod (of the Rumanian Orthodox Church) to recognise the validity of Anglican Orders."

The Anglican Delegation received the Declaration with due acknowledgement."

This was a commission composed of Bishops of the Romanian Church.
http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/bucharest1935.html

That said, I was thinking of Cyprus which in 2008 REAFFIRMED their recognition.
http://philorthodox.blogspot.com/2008/07/orthodox-church-of-cyprus-reaffirms.html

'Unfortunately, after the Third Lambeth Conference, which was held in the year 1888, when a particular effort was made for the promotion of the relations between the Orthodox and the Anglican Church, no substantial progress has been made in this area though a most fervent desire for their union exists in both our Churches. The Orthodox Church of Cyprus, encouraged by the progress made at the time went ahead, as is known, in the year 1923 and recognised the validity of Anglican ordainments in the hope that this would be followed by more moves towards unity between our Churches.'

Thank you for your correction.

Further, if they recognized their orders, there is no need to receive them by vesting.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 10:59:13 AM by Suaiden » Logged

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