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Author Topic: Merged discussion of all things Milan Synod  (Read 26588 times) Average Rating: 0
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Suaiden
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« Reply #450 on: September 15, 2011, 05:39:51 PM »

If it is uncanonical for a ruling bishop to interfere in the business of another diocese or jurisdiction, surely it is inappropriate for a mere hieromonk to do the same!

Benedicite:

The simple reality is that the ROCOR-MP officially does not recognize us as a diocese or jurisdiction. It is therefore perfectly consistent for them to attempt to take our members (I for one am more offended by their use of subterfuge and deception in doing so than anything else). It is also perfectly consistent for us to do the same to theirs. It is inconsistent, therefore, to apply the canons towards their actions as though they are to be treated as equal members of the Church. Certainly, the fact of our officially pretty much ceasing to do so is riling them up. They had a pretty good thing going in the past with our official position being unclear: we train them, and then they seduce them with officialdom and steal them. Now that our policy is consistent, the chances of that continuing are considerably lower.

It should also be taken into account that there are at least 3 ROCOR jurisdictions which ceased communion with the ROCOR-MP because joining it to the MP would make it part of a schismatic body. Consistency would require us to work harder to dialogue with them, because frankly discussions with World Orthodoxy have done us absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, the opposite is true: all 9 of the clergy who have left in the past 8 years have done so because they had an unclear position about the membership of the Church-- had such a confession been in place even a few years ago, perhaps we would have seen a lower number of defections, or at the least new clergy joining would have understood clearly the True Orthodox position on the official churches.

In short, discussions of canonical behavior would actually have merit with the remaining part of the ROCOR that has not joined the Patriarchate, since they still follow the canons consistently. It is our task in these days to work with True Orthodox throughout the world, as we have seen that such a position produces real fruit. We have lost nine priests in 8 years, and have gained a million new Christians and hundreds of new clergy in our sacred communion in one year, throughout the world.

It is clear which path God blesses, and which one He hates.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 05:42:17 PM by Suaiden » Logged

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« Reply #451 on: September 15, 2011, 05:44:07 PM »

Quote
It should also be taken into account that there are at least 3 ROCOR jurisdictions which ceased communion with the ROCOR-MP because joining it to the MP would make it part of a schismatic body.

... and none of these three "jurisdictions" recognise each other. Ah, the spirit of schism ....
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Suaiden
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« Reply #452 on: September 15, 2011, 06:33:24 PM »

Quote
It should also be taken into account that there are at least 3 ROCOR jurisdictions which ceased communion with the ROCOR-MP because joining it to the MP would make it part of a schismatic body.

... and none of these three "jurisdictions" recognise each other. Ah, the spirit of schism ....

Actually, that's a nice word thrown around, but discounts the actual history of schism. In most cases, schism occurs with the assistance of the state, which often violently attacks the Orthodox. In some cases, it is actually state-sponsored and most of the time they devolve into heresy.

True Orthodoxy simply has to wait out the innovators and the True Orthodox need to work together to resolve the causes of division between them, as they have historically done rather slowly.

But a lot of people (I can't say most, since the numbers don't bear out the claim) figure they've got the most buildings, usually with state help, so they don't really give a whit about canons or tradition. They just like their "officialness" and stuff. Kind of a waste of time to discuss though, if you think three Russian jurisdictions with a virtually identical confession of faith and similar origins not recognizing each other in a time of global apostasy is the "spirit of schism".
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« Reply #453 on: September 15, 2011, 06:38:45 PM »


One last question before I try to ignore your unChristianly attitude:


And your Primate stating  that I and my Metropolitan are servants of Satan is Christian??   Roll Eyes
 
Quote
According to your definition (since you don't see us as a Church) there are so many more non-Orthodox, non-Christians even right outside you front door. Go convert them!


I have been doing that for 30 years. Want to swap numbers of converts?  Grin
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« Reply #454 on: September 15, 2011, 06:53:20 PM »


One last question before I try to ignore your unChristianly attitude:


And your Primate stating  that I and my Metropolitan are servants of Satan is Christian??   Roll Eyes

Our Lord did say "Let your yes be yes and your no be no".

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« Reply #455 on: September 15, 2011, 07:01:53 PM »


You posted the freezing nun thread on Paradosis


Posted only a link to OC.net

Commented:
"Sent this so that MAB people are able to respond on OC.net"

Obviously it worked  laugh
 


with some flippant comment about the "Patriarch's" opinion on our Synod.

Obviously nothing of the sort was true. Just trash.

 "Patriarch of Moscow" was what Joseph had in his sidebar at the time
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« Reply #456 on: September 15, 2011, 07:12:20 PM »


Bp Abundius of the Milan Synod, who of course Fr Ambrose was pleased to expose until he realized he was one of the main negotiators between Milan and Moscow.

Still oppose him.  Does Russia want "bishops" ousted by the Romanians for homosexuality and active in Italy in the porn industry?


  Irish Hermit, you are being Moderated for 30 days, for bypassing a lock on another thread.  Moving a conversation from a locked thread to an open thread is never appropriate.  Things are locked for a reason, and circumventing that and the processes on OCNET is never "alright".

Along with this Moderation, you are officially being asked to substantiate any and all potentially* libelous accusation against Bp. Abundius, or submit to being muted/having your time on post moderation doubled.  You have until Wednesday, September 21st by noon (12:00, EST) to submit your proofs to the moderator of this Board (SecondChance).

- Serb1389. 


« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 11:21:23 AM by serb1389 » Logged
serb1389
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« Reply #457 on: September 15, 2011, 07:20:19 PM »

  Ok this has gone on far enough.  I'm locking this thread until the Moderators figure out what to do with this salata.  I hope you ALL take the upcoming break to think about what you are saying here and how you are treating each other, and even other people. 

-Serb1389. 
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« Reply #458 on: September 15, 2011, 11:02:46 PM »

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« Reply #459 on: September 15, 2011, 11:05:56 PM »

i thought  that bishop auxtios  or something like  that was the one that the milan synod  in europe get their  origins from

what is your story joseph i am relatively sure you are a native english speaker yet you talk in one long line like this and jumble everything together what exactly are you trying to do please answer me if you feel so inclined thank you

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« Reply #460 on: September 15, 2011, 11:32:01 PM »


a priest who lived in west milford monastery  he  left thier church and went back to canada and they have  a current priest who refuses to attend service in thier  church because he does not like the way fr  lobue conducts the services on the altar


What are the problems with services?

Irish Hermit, you are being Moderated for 30 days, for bypassing a lock on another thread.  Moving a conversation from a locked thread to an open thread is never appropriate.  Things are locked for a reason, and circumventing that and the processes on OCNET is never "alright". 

Along with this Moderation, you are officially being asked to substantiate any and all potentially* libelous accusation against Bp. Abundius, or submit to being muted/having your time on post moderation doubled.  You have until Wednesday, September 21st by noon (12:00, EST) to submit your proofs to the moderator of this Board (SecondChance). 

- Serb1389. 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 11:21:40 AM by serb1389 » Logged
Irish Hermit
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« Reply #461 on: September 15, 2011, 11:40:13 PM »


Moscow-Milan talks

Almost one year on and no word of the Moscow-Milan talks.  Were they ever for real?
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« Reply #462 on: September 16, 2011, 03:53:47 PM »


a priest who lived in west milford monastery  he  left thier church and went back to canada and they have  a current priest who refuses to attend service in thier  church because he does not like the way fr  lobue conducts the services on the altar


What are the problems with services?

You asked this question on a thread that is now locked. Why are you asking the question again here?
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« Reply #463 on: September 16, 2011, 04:00:26 PM »

'Cause that thread's locked?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RSt51Xca1E
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« Reply #464 on: September 16, 2011, 06:10:00 PM »

This topic has been moved to Purgatory.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 06:33:24 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #465 on: September 17, 2011, 03:43:33 PM »

This topic has been moved back from Purgatory, back into RT. 

We have Placed Irish Hermit on Post Moderation for bypassing the lock on the other Milan thread. 

We are also Requiring him to substantiate his potentially* libelous accusation against Bp. Abundius, or submit to being muted/having his time on post moderation doubled.  This same request will be made to any and all slanderous claims made against anyone, vigilante or not. 

At this time we will not Assess penalties against anyone else. 

HOWEVER.  Be warned that ANY AND ALL further discussion on the Milan Synod will be locked until Irish Hermit has submitted the proof of his claims to SecondChance, per his moderation, in the time allotted. 

Any violation of this lock will be dealt with swiftly, and with the utmost response. 

« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 11:21:52 AM by serb1389 » Logged

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« Reply #466 on: September 18, 2011, 09:11:30 PM »


a priest who lived in west milford monastery  he  left thier church and went back to canada and they have  a current priest who refuses to attend service in thier  church because he does not like the way fr  lobue conducts the services on the altar


What are the problems with services?

Irish Hermit, you are being Moderated for 30 days, for bypassing a lock on another thread.  Moving a conversation from a locked thread to an open thread is never appropriate.  Things are locked for a reason, and circumventing that and the processes on OCNET is never "alright". 

Along with this Moderation, you are officially being asked to substantiate any and all potentially* libelous accusation against Bp. Abundius, or submit to being muted/having your time on post moderation doubled.  You have until Wednesday, September 21st by noon (12:00, EST) to submit your proofs to the moderator of this Board (SecondChance). 

- Serb1389. 


Bp Abundius of the Milan Synod, who of course Fr Ambrose was pleased to expose until he realized he was one of the main negotiators between Milan and Moscow.

Still oppose him.  Does Russia want "bishops" ousted by the Romanians for homosexuality and active in Italy in the porn industry?


  Irish Hermit, you are being Moderated for 30 days, for bypassing a lock on another thread.  Moving a conversation from a locked thread to an open thread is never appropriate.  Things are locked for a reason, and circumventing that and the processes on OCNET is never "alright".

Along with this Moderation, you are officially being asked to substantiate any and all potentially* libelous accusation against Bp. Abundius, or submit to being muted/having your time on post moderation doubled.  You have until Wednesday, September 21st by noon (12:00, EST) to submit your proofs to the moderator of this Board (SecondChance).

- Serb1389. 


This topic has been moved back from Purgatory, back into RT. 

We have Placed Irish Hermit on Post Moderation for bypassing the lock on the other Milan thread. 

We are also Requiring him to substantiate his potentially* libelous accusation against Bp. Abundius, or submit to being muted/having his time on post moderation doubled.  This same request will be made to any and all slanderous claims made against anyone, vigilante or not. 

At this time we will not Assess penalties against anyone else. 

HOWEVER.  Be warned that ANY AND ALL further discussion on the Milan Synod will be locked until Irish Hermit has submitted the proof of his claims to SecondChance, per his moderation, in the time allotted. 

Any violation of this lock will be dealt with swiftly, and with the utmost response. 



In the spirit of transparency I wanted to mention that all submissions of proof have been offered to PetertheAleut because of a typo on my part.  I did not notice that SecondChance was the moderator of this board, and accidentally put PetertheAleut in that spot originally.  After realizing my omission I went back & changed the official request to reflect SecondChance as the official moderator.  However, the wheel had already been set in motion.  At this point, if there are submission, they could go to either PetertheAleut, or SecondChance.  All of the moderators are working equally on this project until we have resolutions to the above requests. 

Please forgive me for any inconveniences to any of you. 

-Serb1389. 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 11:22:50 AM by serb1389 » Logged

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« Reply #467 on: September 20, 2011, 05:53:45 AM »

okay so  my concern is  does anyone really know the origins of this  church  which is headed by fr  john lobue  or the  fact that in 1914  bishop  willian francis  brothers a colorful  and  controversal old catholic prelate started the original church as the old catholic church in america  which   in the early 1960's bishop brothers  took   his jurisdcition under the protection and    commuion of  the moscow patriarchal church for a few  years and assumed the title of mitered monk which he did not like and left commuion with the mp church    the problem is fr lobue and other clergy in  his synod    seem to think that no one is still alive or remembers   bishop brothers  this  is untrue thier are  2  russian orthodox priests in thier early 80's who were young priests at the time  and   remember when   bishop brothers of woodstock ny  came into commuion with the mp church  and know the story why he   departed  their  church  in such a short time   bishop brothers died  in the 1970's  then  bishop joseph mccormick led the church   he ordained a former jesuit priest named fr john lobue  when  bishop mccormick died  fr lobue took over and he then   led the  church out  of the confusion of  old catholicism which he  should be comended for   towards  a more eastern orthodox postion in theology and beliefs    fr lobue  changed  the churches  name  to the synod of orthodox bishops of the western rite which  by  1984  consisted of the west milford abbey and the chapel in  woodstock ny and a few  parishes in america and 4 parishes in  yugoslavia  then later on  bishop hilarion of austin become  a  bishop  of the synod of orthodox bishops of the western rite  then  in the 1990's the church become associated with patrirach  fileret the so called  patrairch of kiev who in reality  was a demoted bishop  of  the mp church to the title of  miterd monk  before being defrocked by the same  church  when  fr lobue  found out the  controversy   of filerets church  they left commuion with  this church   and went solo for a while to later join   the milan  jurisdiction founded by the greek metropolitan  eveghois who was a former clergy  of the greek old calendar church  led by a bishop auxtios which as a side note a few  old calendar greeks jurisdictions in recent years  have rejoined  the ep church  especialy  the old calendar group located in queens ny which has  the chapel of the  miracules weeping icon of st irene  also on the subject of the american milan synod   having a  vaild mass    i was told by a  antiochen orthodox priest that the sarum mass is incomplete and that those who use it  are pretty much  making up as they go along  to fill in the  parts of the manuscript that are missing because no  one has a fully intact copy of the  sarum mass  also i know  subdeacon will discount any past associations  of his church  and its founder   bishop brothers  that since they renounced any bad thelogy that he held in  the church from the begining  that  his name and assciation  have no bearing on the present church but that is not true his being the founder of this church and  his  irregualr  ordaination  puts in question  his claims as holding true apostolic succesion and those passed down  the line to suceed him  the churches history also comes into question and  past association with other so called orthodox  jurisdictions    not to metion fr lobue current   isolationist  postion of  thinking that all orthodox churches that dont hold to his  non ecuemicalist and old calendar postion are not true  orthoox churches and hold no grace in them this    is dangerous  and not healthy  postion to hold and very unorthodox and why many orthodox churches discount any claims this church makes as being a vaild and cannonical orthodox church

You surely have to have seen this message, http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,34970.msg639933.html#msg639933 on the now locked Milan thread. Also, plain old common sense will tell you that it's never appropriate to go around the lock on a thread and resume the discussion somewhere else. For bypassing the lock on a locked thread, you are receiving this warning to last for the next 30 days. If you think this action wrong, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George and/or Veniamin.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 01:49:24 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Suaiden
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« Reply #468 on: September 20, 2011, 12:24:01 PM »

Really? Again?

okay so  my concern is  does anyone really know the origins of this  church  which is headed by fr  john lobue  or the  fact that in 1914  bishop  willian francis  brothers a colorful  and  controversal old catholic prelate started the original church as the old catholic church in america  which   in the early 1960's bishop brothers  took   his jurisdcition under the protection and    commuion of  the moscow patriarchal church for a few  years and assumed the title of mitered monk which he did not like and left commuion with the mp church    the problem is fr lobue and other clergy in  his synod    seem to think that no one is still alive or remembers   bishop brothers  this  is untrue thier are  2  russian orthodox priests in thier early 80's who were young priests at the time  and   remember when   bishop brothers of woodstock ny  came into commuion with the mp church  and know the story why he   departed  their  church  in such a short time   bishop brothers died  in the 1970's  then  bishop joseph mccormick led the church   he ordained a former jesuit priest named fr john lobue  when  bishop mccormick died  fr lobue took over and he then   led the  church out  of the confusion of  old catholicism which he  should be comended for   towards  a more eastern orthodox postion in theology and beliefs    fr lobue  changed  the churches  name  to the synod of orthodox bishops of the western rite which  by  1984  consisted of the west milford abbey and the chapel in  woodstock ny and a few  parishes in america and 4 parishes in  yugoslavia  

No one denies any of this.

Quote
then later on  bishop hilarion of austin become  a  bishop  of the synod of orthodox bishops of the western rite  then  in the 1990's the church become associated with patrirach  fileret the so called  patrairch of kiev who in reality  was a demoted bishop  of  the mp church to the title of  miterd monk  before being defrocked by the same  church  when  fr lobue  found out the  controversy   of filerets church  they left commuion with  this church   and went solo for a while to later join   the milan  jurisdiction founded by the greek metropolitan  eveghois who was a former clergy  of the greek old calendar church  led by a bishop auxtios

You have this backwards. The Americans joined the Milan Synod just as the short-lived communion with the KP (on the part of the Milan Synod) was almost ended. This is getting repetitive and starting to look a little like grafitti.

Quote
which as a side note a few  old calendar greeks jurisdictions in recent years  have rejoined  the ep church  especialy  the old calendar group located in queens ny which has  the chapel of the  miracules weeping icon of st irene  also on the subject of the american milan synod   having a  vaild mass    i was told by a  antiochen orthodox priest that the sarum mass is incomplete and that those who use it  are pretty much  making up as they go along  to fill in the  parts of the manuscript that are missing because no  one has a fully intact copy of the  sarum mass  

A) That's not true. Anyone who reviews the 20,000 pages or so of translations we've done can see that.
B) Ironically, a Sarum service is almost twice as long as an Antiochian WR service. How exactly then is it more incomplete than either of the Antiochian Western Rites?

Quote
also i know  subdeacon will discount any past associations  of his church  and its founder   bishop brothers  that since they renounced any bad thelogy that he held in  the church from the begining  that  his name and assciation  have no bearing on the present church but that is not true his being the founder of this church and  his  irregualr  ordaination  puts in question  his claims as holding true apostolic succesion and those passed down  the line to suceed him  the churches history also comes into question and  past association with other so called orthodox  jurisdictions

Again: Obviously you've either never heard of chierothesia, or don't believe it, so this is pointless. I would try to explain it, but as you've allegedly "called me out" for denying it, clearly you are not interested in the simple truth of the matter, but repeating a lie.

Quote
  not to metion fr lobue current   isolationist  postion of  thinking that all orthodox churches that dont hold to his  non ecuemicalist and old calendar postion are not true  orthoox churches and hold no grace in them this    is dangerous  and not healthy  postion to hold and very unorthodox and why many orthodox churches discount any claims this church makes as being a vaild and cannonical orthodox church

Obviously you have no intention of giving up and repeating untruths and distortions in a really weird manner. I've referred you to our public confession. What's really left for us to do? You started this new discussion with a bunch of untrue statements and personal attacks that eventually led to the shutting down of forum discussion on our Synod. Since you were answered on it, you've tried this.

Your intent seems to be, in your own sort of creepy way, to cause confusion about our Church. What did we ever do to you?

Just as josephgodleski1966's act of taking this discussion to another location to circumvent the lock on a thread is violation of forum rules and of common sense, so also is your act of engaging the discussion he resumed. Therefore, you are receiving the same discipline I gave him: a formal warning to last for 30 days. Additionally, since you have a history of similar rules violations on our forum (which Mr. Godleski does not have), your warning is being escalated to post moderation. If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal if via private message to either Fr. George or Veniamin.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 07:57:25 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

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« Reply #469 on: September 20, 2011, 01:39:15 PM »

After further review, this thread will remain locked.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 08:04:05 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #470 on: September 21, 2011, 10:33:03 PM »

By the decision of the Moderatorial Team:

1. All discussion on this subject must be confined to this thread. Also, please do not open another thread on this subject anywhere else.

2. As Irish Hermit did not substantiate his accusations against Bishop Abundius by the deadline given to him, his post moderation is increased from 30 days to 60 days.

3. This thread is now unlocked.

Thank you, Second Chance
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« Reply #471 on: September 22, 2011, 10:16:00 AM »

i heard 6  priests defected from the american sector of the milan synod with 3 more possible  defections   we must pray  harder that  more priests come home to the truth and leave the gripes of fr lobue and the  orthodox metropolitia of the americas and the british isles
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« Reply #472 on: September 22, 2011, 10:40:19 AM »

this of course we be not a hard thing for those priest who leave  the autonomous orthodox  metropolia of the americas and the british isles  since the majority of the parishes are home churches  so the priest would probadly have to submit to start as a deacon or subdeacon and then be a priest  when thier irregular ordanation is corrected by a cannonical orthodox  bishop
at present i only know that west milford nj  and woodstock are the only  physical  church properties in this synod  st hilarion monastery in austin tx  use to have a chapel on it but i heard they sold the property  and i do not know anything about the bishop they have attached in lincoln nebraska if any of his parishes are actual  church  buildings or all house churches
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« Reply #473 on: September 22, 2011, 10:50:26 AM »

Sometimes I wonder how many of these "true" & "traditionalist" groupings that often use the terms "world Orthodoxy" & "anathema" often even have any laity.

If you want a good laugh regarding traditionalists trying to spin numbers to make themselves look better, try this show. My two favorite parts were 1) when they said that traditionalists make up ~10% of the Orthodox (I guess math wasn't their strong suit in school), and 2) when they repeatedly said that you could probably find a traditionalist parish just about anywhere that you could find a world Orthodox parish. Good times.
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« Reply #474 on: September 22, 2011, 11:57:04 AM »

The thread is locked. Discuss Milan Synod issues there and ONLY there.
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« Reply #475 on: September 22, 2011, 01:44:59 PM »

Ok, i'll bite. So this Milan synod, is it, or has it ever been canonical in the way we would think?

If not, why not? Please make it simple...remember Im not cradle.

PP
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« Reply #476 on: September 22, 2011, 03:24:28 PM »

Ok, i'll bite. So this Milan synod, is it, or has it ever been canonical in the way we would think?

If not, why not? Please make it simple...remember Im not cradle.

PP

If you believe in the canonical reality of the Old Calendar Church of Greece from the (pre-MP union) ROCOR then you believe that Milan Synod is canonical.
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« Reply #477 on: September 22, 2011, 04:03:45 PM »

Ok, i'll bite. So this Milan synod, is it, or has it ever been canonical in the way we would think?

If not, why not? Please make it simple...remember Im not cradle.

PP

If you believe in the canonical reality of the Old Calendar Church of Greece from the (pre-MP union) ROCOR then you believe that Milan Synod is canonical.
So I take it concerning the church at large thats a resounding no....

PP
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« Reply #478 on: September 22, 2011, 05:33:20 PM »

Ok, i'll bite. So this Milan synod, is it, or has it ever been canonical in the way we would think?

If not, why not? Please make it simple...remember Im not cradle.

PP

If you believe in the canonical reality of the Old Calendar Church of Greece from the (pre-MP union) ROCOR then you believe that Milan Synod is canonical.
So I take it concerning the church at large thats a resounding no....

PP

Correct.  Or, put another way: Milan Synod, as a group, has never been in communion with your listed jurisdiction (the Antiochian Archdiocese), her patriarch, or anyone in communion with said patriarch.
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« Reply #479 on: September 22, 2011, 05:39:31 PM »

If someone will define what "canonical" means for him, I can say whether the Milan Synod fits that definition.

Otherwise, it's complex and "canonical" has a lot of differing meanings.
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« Reply #480 on: September 22, 2011, 06:34:58 PM »

"Official", "Canonical"
There is no such thing, of course, as a "canonical" Orthodox jurisdiction, despite the fact that this kind of terminology has crept into our ecclesiological vocabulary from the West. Nor are there "official" Orthodox Churches, a category produced by the contemporary ecumenical movement. Were this so, and were such terms amenable to the nuanced ecclesiological notions of the Greek Fathers, we would have to concede that the Cappadocian Fathers, the Studite monks, and the Palamite Hesychasts were, in some way, "quasi-canonical" and "un-official." This, if nothing else, warns us against apologetic presentations which unwisely pass over the intricacies of Church history.

—Archbishbop Chrysostomos of Etna, in a review of Fr. Alexander Webster's The Price of Prophecy (Orthodox Tradition, Vol. XIV, No. 2&3, p. 71)

Since the "World Orthodox" follow trends of ecumenism, syncretism and neo-Sergianism or any other contradiction to patristic Holy Tradition and Canons they have fallen "ill" and have become separated in their relation to the Body of Christ. It is in the same sense that when an Orthodox person sins he has set himself outside the Church until he is reconciled through repentance and the Mystery of Confession. So too is the human elements ("jurisdictions") we too often call The Church.
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« Reply #481 on: September 22, 2011, 06:39:00 PM »

"Official", "Canonical"
There is no such thing, of course, as a "canonical" Orthodox jurisdiction, despite the fact that this kind of terminology has crept into our ecclesiological vocabulary from the West. Nor are there "official" Orthodox Churches, a category produced by the contemporary ecumenical movement. Were this so, and were such terms amenable to the nuanced ecclesiological notions of the Greek Fathers, we would have to concede that the Cappadocian Fathers, the Studite monks, and the Palamite Hesychasts were, in some way, "quasi-canonical" and "un-official." This, if nothing else, warns us against apologetic presentations which unwisely pass over the intricacies of Church history.

—Archbishbop Chrysostomos of Etna, in a review of Fr. Alexander Webster's The Price of Prophecy (Orthodox Tradition, Vol. XIV, No. 2&3, p. 71)

Since the "World Orthodox" follow trends of ecumenism, syncretism and neo-Sergianism or any other contradiction to patristic Holy Tradition and Canons they have fallen "ill" and have become separated in their relation to the Body of Christ. It is in the same sense that when an Orthodox person sins he has set himself outside the Church until he is reconciled through repentance and the Mystery of Confession. So too is the human elements ("jurisdictions") we too often call The Church.

So why aren't you in communion with Archbishop Chrysostomos? Who got ill and fell away from whom?
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« Reply #482 on: September 22, 2011, 06:41:24 PM »

The evidence does not bear out this claim: "... the 'World Orthodox' follow trends of ecumenism, syncretism, and neo-Sergianism..."

Since 1970, and especially since the year 2000, the trend in World Orthodoxy is less ecumenism, less syncretism, and less neo-Sergianism. Sergianism has been repudiated by the Moscow Patriarchate. The Phanar has issued strongly anti-ecumenist statements. Syncretism is on the out-and-out.

Thanks be to God!
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« Reply #483 on: September 22, 2011, 06:43:22 PM »

"Official", "Canonical"
There is no such thing, of course, as a "canonical" Orthodox jurisdiction, despite the fact that this kind of terminology has crept into our ecclesiological vocabulary from the West. Nor are there "official" Orthodox Churches, a category produced by the contemporary ecumenical movement. Were this so, and were such terms amenable to the nuanced ecclesiological notions of the Greek Fathers, we would have to concede that the Cappadocian Fathers, the Studite monks, and the Palamite Hesychasts were, in some way, "quasi-canonical" and "un-official." This, if nothing else, warns us against apologetic presentations which unwisely pass over the intricacies of Church history.

—Archbishbop Chrysostomos of Etna, in a review of Fr. Alexander Webster's The Price of Prophecy (Orthodox Tradition, Vol. XIV, No. 2&3, p. 71)

Since the "World Orthodox" follow trends of ecumenism, syncretism and neo-Sergianism or any other contradiction to patristic Holy Tradition and Canons they have fallen "ill" and have become separated in their relation to the Body of Christ. It is in the same sense that when an Orthodox person sins he has set himself outside the Church until he is reconciled through repentance and the Mystery of Confession. So too is the human elements ("jurisdictions") we too often call The Church.

So why aren't you in communion with Archbishop Chrysostomos? Who got ill and fell away from whom?

In my opinion based upon my understanding Abp Cyprian's founding his own synod (unlike several others) was an illegitimate act thus it is nothing more than a parasynagogue. The standard of Orthodoxy falls equally upon all TOC/GOC as well as "World Orthodox".
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« Reply #484 on: September 22, 2011, 06:48:32 PM »

The evidence does not bear out this claim: "... the 'World Orthodox' follow trends of ecumenism, syncretism, and neo-Sergianism..."

Since 1970, and especially since the year 2000, the trend in World Orthodoxy is less ecumenism, less syncretism, and less neo-Sergianism. Sergianism has been repudiated by the Moscow Patriarchate. The Phanar has issued strongly anti-ecumenist statements. Syncretism is on the out-and-out.

Thanks be to God!

Pontifications are worthless while their actions are contrary. Just search the net one will find it replete with news articles and photos of World Orthodox hierarchs & clergy praying and worshipping with non-Orthodox sometimes non-Christians.

Forgive me! Its so sad!
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« Reply #485 on: September 22, 2011, 09:00:27 PM »

Well, such things did occur on occasion even back in the 18th century, but it didn't make the Orthodox Church vanish into smoke and cease to exist. And neither today.
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« Reply #486 on: September 22, 2011, 09:02:50 PM »

Also, why didn't Fr. Ambrose simply provide the documentation? Did he just decide not to? Did he take ill at an inopportune moment? It seems very odd, to me, that he would simply let himself get censured. Maybe he has some other, overriding motive?
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« Reply #487 on: September 23, 2011, 12:05:39 AM »

Also, why didn't Fr. Ambrose simply provide the documentation? Did he just decide not to? Did he take ill at an inopportune moment? It seems very odd, to me, that he would simply let himself get censured. Maybe he has some other, overriding motive?

Didn't he state on your discussion Yahoo! group that he was beginning to physically move from his location as he was being replaced by a priest & his wife from Russia?
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« Reply #488 on: September 23, 2011, 12:09:31 AM »

Well, such things did occur on occasion even back in the 18th century, but it didn't make the Orthodox Church vanish into smoke and cease to exist. And neither today.

 Huh  Well, such things did occur on occasion even back in the 18th century, but it didn't make the Orthodox Christian vanish into smoke and cease to exist when he sinned. And neither today; but he still falls outside the Church when he sins and returns to the Church when he repents. Local ecclesial bodies are the same.
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« Reply #489 on: September 23, 2011, 09:51:05 AM »

I have it on the best authority, that Fr. Ambrose did provide the documentation requested by the moderators, to the moderators. But they ignored it and censured him anyway.

Shame!
Moderators have not received anything from Irish Hermit yet. What is more you are criticising moderators' decisions in public and that is forbidden by the forum rules. Therefore you receive a 20-day-long warning. If you disagree with the decision of Second Chance you should contact Fr. George - the global moderator that oversees him - MK.
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« Reply #490 on: September 23, 2011, 10:12:40 AM »

Since no one has stated what they mean by "canonical," I cannot pontificate  Wink on whether the Milan Synod does or does not meet a specific definition.

I can say that Milan Synod clergy have served, in rank, without any reordination whatsoever, in the ranks of Metropolitan, Archbishop, Bishop, Priest, and Deacon, in churches of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Orthodox Church in America (OCA), Moscow Patriarchate, Romanian Patriarchate, Polish Autocephalous Church, and Serbian Patriarchate, when leaving the Milan Synod behind them. I can say that clergy of the Milan Synod have concelebrated the Liturgy with clergy of the Moscow Patriarchate and Romanian Patriarchate.

That is different from the Milan Synod being recognized officially by any of those Local Orthodox Churches. It is not.

Here are the historical details, from a public post I made Feb. 6, 2008, on the Occidentalis group for discussion of the Western Rite in the Orthodox Church:

==============================

IN HIERARCHICAL RANK. Metropolitan Gabriel of Lisbon and his vicar Bishops Iakovos and Theodoros were received in rank into the Polish Orthodox Church in 1989. Metropolitan Gabriel, without intermission, simply began serving as a Metropolitan of the Polish Church. When in Europe rumours began to circulate that they had undergone a fresh ordination, Warsaw confirmed, in a document dated Feb. 11, 1991, that no re-ordination had occurred. An official letter from Metropolitan Gabriel of the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church, dated Mar 14, 1993, also confirms that no reconsecration of the Bishops occurred—they were received in their episcopal dignities.

Archbishop Lazar of Ottawa (a defrocked former Deacon of the Russian Church Outside Russia who had been rehabilitated by the Free Serbian Church) and Bishop Varlaam of Vancouver Gabriel, both of whom were consecrated to the episcopate by Metropolitan Evloghios of Milan, but later abandoned the Milan Synod in order to join the Kievan Patriarchate, were received as retired Hierarchs by the OCA on May 24, 2002. They are listed on the OCA's official website as Hierarchs together with Theodosius, former Metropolitan, Gregory, former Bishop of Sitka and Alaska, and other retired OCA Hierarchs. Metr. Evloghios consecrated Abp. Lazar on Sept. 28, 1990, Bp. Varlaam on Apr. 1, 1994. (reference:
http://www.oca.org/pages/ocaadmin/episcopacy/index.html#retired)

Abp. Lazar and Bp. Varlaam concelebrated with Metr. Herman of the OCA on July 23, 2004, during the triennial Assembly of the OCA's Archdiocese of Canada.

IN PRIESTLY RANK. In France, in 1989, Archpriest Gerard de la Garde and Deacon Joseph Fouilleul, two clergy ordained by Metr. Gabriel of Lisbon, were accepted into the Moscow Patriarchate, without reordination, by the Exarch Vladimir (Sobodan), presently Metropolitan of Kiev of the Autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate).

When Metr. Gabriel and his Bishops were received in rank into the Polish Orthodox Church in 1989, some 30 of their Priests were likewise received, in rank, into the same Polish Orthodox Church.

IN DIACONAL RANK. In Germany, the Exarch of the Serbian Orthodox Church Lavrentije (now Bishop of Sabac-Valjevo), received Deacon Basil Manfred Danfeld, a resident of Berlin, ordained Nov. 28, 1989 by Metropolitan Evloghios of Milan. At Bishop Lavrentije's request, Metr. Evloghios signed an official letter of canonical release on Mar. 5, 1991. Fr. Deacon Basil was received as a Deacon without reordination.

There have also been cases when clergy of the Milan Synod were received into other Orthodox Churches WITH reordination. But the fact is, there would be no theological barrier to the EP's receiving a Milan Synod Bishop in rank. It is not likely given the politics of the situation, however.

When I applied to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, in late 2004, I was initially told that I would most likely not need to be reordained. In the end, it was decided to receive me and the other nine or so Milan Synod priests who have left the Milan Synod for the Russian Church Abroad, by the process of a cheirothesia.

I have since concelebrated the Sacred Liturgy with clergy of the Antiochian Archdiocese, Serbian Patriarchate, and Ecumenical Patriarchate.

I hope this will be useful information to some.

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« Reply #491 on: September 23, 2011, 02:15:15 PM »

Since no one has stated what they mean by "canonical," [...]

I can say that Milan Synod clergy have served, in rank, without any reordination whatsoever, in the ranks of Metropolitan, Archbishop, Bishop, Priest, and Deacon, in churches of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Orthodox Church in America (OCA), Moscow Patriarchate, Romanian Patriarchate, Polish Autocephalous Church, and Serbian Patriarchate, when leaving the Milan Synod behind them. I can say that clergy of the Milan Synod have concelebrated the Liturgy with clergy of the Moscow Patriarchate and Romanian Patriarchate. [...]

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While all this is true and complimentary it is nothing more than recognition. This is a variant of the papal-caesarism in which all a local faith community needs is to be recognized by a ancient or major Patrriarchate to be considered legitimate or canonical. This is a Western notion and foreign to the Orthodox mind. But recognition is not necessarily the same as being canonical. In fact such recognition does not necessarily guarantee that the new community is in fact canonically faithful or thoroughly compliant to the Orthodox Standard.

To be canonical is simply to maintain a vigilant fidelity to the Sacred Canons & Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy as handed down to us from the Holy Fathers without ever being too rigid or too liberal in the exercise of the Faith. A Synod can possess the finest apostolic succession but if they have adopted an innovation that is contrary to the long Tradition of Faith they then are no longer canonical in spite of their historical connection. Such fidelity to the Canons & Traditions of the Faith naturally include doctrine, discipline and culture unique to the patristic Church. To be in-communion with a local church that is failing in its canonical observance (e.g., giving communion to heterodox or hierarchs praying with leaders of non-Orthodox communities, etc.) and one remains silent or passive (offering no brotherly correction) then the second local synod is as guilty as the first by association and thus, too, is uncanonical.  While World Orthodox jurisdictions accepted exiting hierarchs & clergy from Milan Synod in their orders ("ranks") from a traditional view these same hierarchs and clergy lost their orders having entered under the omophor of an uncanonical jurisdiction.

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« Reply #492 on: September 23, 2011, 02:29:22 PM »

While all this is true and complimentary it is nothing more than recognition. This is a variant of the papal-caesarism in which all a local faith community needs is to be recognized by a ancient or major Patrriarchate to be considered legitimate or canonical. This is a Western notion and foreign to the Orthodox mind.

Seeing no need in being recognised is Calvinism.
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« Reply #493 on: September 23, 2011, 02:33:08 PM »

Arian also served under canonical jurisdictions.

And canonical means those who mutually recognize that each other follow the traditional canons of the Church, which the Millan Synod does not. Schismatic groups are by definition made of people who were once canonical, although their new group no longer is.

Besides, the orders are a gift of the Church and that exist only *in* the Church. One cannot just get it and run away like a kid stealing an ice-cream and then crying "it's mine, mine, mine". Outside the oasis of the Church in the hot sun of schismatic desert, the ice-cream simply melts away.
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« Reply #494 on: September 23, 2011, 02:41:06 PM »

While all this is true and complimentary it is nothing more than recognition. This is a variant of the papal-caesarism in which all a local faith community needs is to be recognized by a ancient or major Patrriarchate to be considered legitimate or canonical. This is a Western notion and foreign to the Orthodox mind.

I don't know. It seems to me that our concept of canonicity has roots in the writings of St. Irenaeus Against the Heresies. Whatever we may think of modern day RC interpretation of his writings, he did say something about how agreement with Rome was a sure sign of one's orthodoxy.
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